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How important is THE WORLD?
11 years ago
*Dio joke here*
I think I've finally realized why many people (including myself) hate The Legend of Korra and also why people dislike Attack on Titan, and it's mostly the same reason, just at different extremes. The reason is the focus on the world, or lack there of.
Avatar the Last Airbender is considered one of the best shows of all time, so why did Korra drop the ball with so many? Is it the unlikable characters? Sure, that definitely helps, however I admit I started to like Korra herself somewhere mid season 2 and most of season 3, and still this show fell flat for me. Now I know why! The world, or better yet, the lack there of. Aside from the likeable characters, do you know what made Avatar the Last Airbender a great show? It was an adventure. You took this group of kids and they explored an entire world together. Seeing all the neat creatures, all the new settings and watching these characters interact with these environments for the first time made you feel like you were on this adventure with them. And as weird as this world was, it was also believable, at least in the framing they were providing.
The Legend of Korra isn't about exploration, it's not a journey or adventure. It's mostly just the characters switching between 2 or 3 locations the entire season, and all the emphasis is put on these characters, not their world. Sure, it did focus on the world a few times, but most of it wasn't very important. Very stark contrast to The Last Airbender, and also a very large error in judgment on the part of the creators. They believed the characters in Korra would be so interesting the world could easily take a backseat. Given the poor performance of Korra's show, it's clear they were grossly mistaken. Huh, world building is important... who would have guessed!
Then we have Attack on Titan, which has just the opposite problem. Almost the entire focus of Attack on Titan is the world and the situation itself, not the people and not the characters. Because of this many viewers are immediately turned away, baffled by what it is they see and annoyed that the resolutions for the characters aren't immediate or apparent. Nothing says that so plainly as watching reviews of it like this:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid.....ttack-on-Titan
These two were so laser focused on the characters, everything important that was revealed about this world and this conflict went straight over their heads. The implications of the second half of the series is what was supposed to be interesting about it, not whether or not they saved the day at the end. Who the female titan is wasn't supposed to be a mystery... the interesting part about it was what it meant. Again, these fellows had such focus on the characters, the bigger picture was lost to them completely. The reason I bring that up is because that "bigger picture" was the world; the very thing the characters had been in conflict with since the show began.
I don't fault these guys, I completely understand why someone wouldn't enjoy Attack on Titan if they couldn't appreciate the world or mystery surrounding it, but that begs the question; is it bad to focus too much on a world like that?
Korra didn't do it enough, Attack on Titan did it too much.
It's interesting to see the fallout of both, and I suppose someone's like or hate of either could be a good measurement of how much they value this part of a story.
How important is a world to you?
I think I've finally realized why many people (including myself) hate The Legend of Korra and also why people dislike Attack on Titan, and it's mostly the same reason, just at different extremes. The reason is the focus on the world, or lack there of.
Avatar the Last Airbender is considered one of the best shows of all time, so why did Korra drop the ball with so many? Is it the unlikable characters? Sure, that definitely helps, however I admit I started to like Korra herself somewhere mid season 2 and most of season 3, and still this show fell flat for me. Now I know why! The world, or better yet, the lack there of. Aside from the likeable characters, do you know what made Avatar the Last Airbender a great show? It was an adventure. You took this group of kids and they explored an entire world together. Seeing all the neat creatures, all the new settings and watching these characters interact with these environments for the first time made you feel like you were on this adventure with them. And as weird as this world was, it was also believable, at least in the framing they were providing.
The Legend of Korra isn't about exploration, it's not a journey or adventure. It's mostly just the characters switching between 2 or 3 locations the entire season, and all the emphasis is put on these characters, not their world. Sure, it did focus on the world a few times, but most of it wasn't very important. Very stark contrast to The Last Airbender, and also a very large error in judgment on the part of the creators. They believed the characters in Korra would be so interesting the world could easily take a backseat. Given the poor performance of Korra's show, it's clear they were grossly mistaken. Huh, world building is important... who would have guessed!
Then we have Attack on Titan, which has just the opposite problem. Almost the entire focus of Attack on Titan is the world and the situation itself, not the people and not the characters. Because of this many viewers are immediately turned away, baffled by what it is they see and annoyed that the resolutions for the characters aren't immediate or apparent. Nothing says that so plainly as watching reviews of it like this:
http://www.escapistmagazine.com/vid.....ttack-on-Titan
These two were so laser focused on the characters, everything important that was revealed about this world and this conflict went straight over their heads. The implications of the second half of the series is what was supposed to be interesting about it, not whether or not they saved the day at the end. Who the female titan is wasn't supposed to be a mystery... the interesting part about it was what it meant. Again, these fellows had such focus on the characters, the bigger picture was lost to them completely. The reason I bring that up is because that "bigger picture" was the world; the very thing the characters had been in conflict with since the show began.
I don't fault these guys, I completely understand why someone wouldn't enjoy Attack on Titan if they couldn't appreciate the world or mystery surrounding it, but that begs the question; is it bad to focus too much on a world like that?
Korra didn't do it enough, Attack on Titan did it too much.
It's interesting to see the fallout of both, and I suppose someone's like or hate of either could be a good measurement of how much they value this part of a story.
How important is a world to you?
A well developed world gives the viewer the chance to put themselves into it, and then they are free to think about it in their own way, not restricted by what the characters think or do. It seems a lot more engaging and encourages people to think about things in their own way in the situations and environment that's set. There's often more to think about an become engaged with, it's just more exciting than 'getting to know someone', because we do that in life already. But the chance to visit far off lands isn't as common an occurrence.
But yeah, when AoT was airing each passing week I was so excited to see the new episode, and not because I wondered"what Levi would do" or "how angry Eren was today", but because I wanted to understand this bizarre world better and get more answers to this immense mystery all these characters were trapped in. The fact that no one in the show knows anything about their world kind of makes it a "fish out of water story" for everyone; it's something rarely done and I'm happy with how unique it all feels.
So yeah, this kind of analysis is useful to keep at hand...and I can't because I CAN'T FAVE JOURNALS D8<
I personally think there should be a strong dynamic between the characters and the world. Neither should exist as the sole focus of any story; there should be a symbiotic relationship of development. The world changes as the story progresses, as do the characters. That is, to me, what bring stories to life - and that's another thing that Avatar did right. You could FEEL the fact that Aang was important just by looking at how the world and the characters behaved and changed around him
However I can concede the opposite too. World build js a great thing, but if you dont have any meaningful interactions within it, it becomes a glorified painting. Pretty to look at, interesting to think about, but ultimately not.something worth investing your time into because nothing of value will come of.it without some.sort of action. Now it doesnt have to be character actions persay, but simething has to give the world a reason for existing...
I believe that world building is important, BUT it needs to come second. First you need to have characters that you care about, so that when they explore and experience this world, you get more invested and more interested. If the characters you like care, then you should care. know what i mean?
also that video is very interesting. ^_^
The key is really about exploration... if your story's emphasis is on the world, then the most natural human instinct is to want to explore it, so the best 'world building' stories have a travel/exploration theme driving the plot. But to have a good story you always have to have characters for people to associate with (and thereby deassociate from themselves and the real world).
I haven't watched enough of Titan to know what the characters are like, but one thing I did pick up on was how insulated and tense the plot was. The characters aren't really exploring the world, as trapped to a small part of it. I think even in stories where you have characters who are a part of a larger world, the tendency is for them to 'break out;' the sense with Titan was more of being confined and trying to understand the world from the inside.
I have not heard of Korra but I ADORE AoT. Do I think it is perfect? No. Not by a long shot. I have quite a few issues with it, not the least of which is that I want to !@#$%T^ING STRANGLE the voice actors sometimes. NOT EVERYTHING NEEDS TO BE SCREECHED AT THE TOP OF YOUR !@#$%^&*ING LUNGS, dude who voices Erin! And I swear to fuck, Armen nearly always sounds like someone choking a goddamned rooster. It drives me up the wall. The Japanese voice actor for Armen is tolerable but the English voice actor makes me die on the inside. Also, you're not going to stand around philosophizing and waxing poetic for 10 minutes straight in the middle of running away from a giant !@#$%^&*ing homunculus trying to eat you, or in the middle of fighting for your life, or with a bevy of cannons firing at you. That just is not going to happen. So yeah. Sometimes the dialog strikes me as a little unbelievable, even considering that it is an anime which, imo, is a medium of exaggeration that lends itself well to extremes of style and expression.
Hhhooowwwweverrrr....... I do like the characters, sparing as character development may be at times, I love the setting, I salivate over political intrigue stories (because I am a giant fucking dork), and I love the art of the AoT anime. I agree with your assessment, ultimately. AoT could use a little more focus on the characters; character development, relationships, interaction, etc. Still, I really like it. I feel like a lot of character development flies under the radar as it is done really subtly with a glance, a pose, a gesture, a single line of dialog and other little things that people are likely to miss. Anyway, I'm rambling.
Interesting thoughts as always.
Don't like Korra
Liked Air Bender okay
But a good story doesn't necessarily need to go beyond two or three locations.
However yeah Korra is meh
Attack on Titan, for me, is about the struggle to be stronger, and the failures on experiences along the way. The characters are up against seemingly insurmountable odds, so much so that many in their situation crumble and accept their death with sobs and cries. It makes each victory, however small, have a weight to it, and as such actually flows over into my empathy for the characters. I put this anime into my 'Game of Thrones' category where I find myself loving the characters even more, simply because I know the possibility of their Death is always there.
In regards to Korra. I agree that they need to widen their exploration more. I adored the story in the first season, and in the second season I was loving the leaving the city, but the story sucked.
I'll admit I'm coming into this debate as a viewer of the anime and not manga reader, but what bothered me is not only how terrible the pacing is for the AoT anime, but also how they setup this rather interesting world situation with decent characters, and then do jack shit with any of it. Absolutely nothing gets resolved in the first season of the anime, and not one single character goes through anything remotely like a character arc. Which sucks, because the plot leaves so many breadcrumbs that leave you wondering about the world and the Titans, that it become very unsatisfying when not one revelation occurs to give us better insight into these mysteries. And without more growth or change with the characters, we have no way to fall back onto the cast to recover from these failures.
Actually I think the characters are growing. Armin at least has finally found self-confidence and realizes what he thinks/says matters more then it does with most people, and Eren... I think Eren is doing exactly what he should be doing by flying off the handle more and more, because I still believe this is the origin story of a villain. That last bit at the end "I'll destroy the world" basically cemented that. I also worry about his sister. She's basically now made it clear she isn't on the side of humanity, she's on Eren's side. That implies she will do anything for him, including attack humanity if Eren ever becomes a threat.
As for the world, I do admit it's all left to subtle hints, but there were a lot of them, and the best/final ones at the end were enough for me, personally. Finding out about the walls, and more importantly, seeing a glimpse into the cult that worships them revealed that these people know about it, which is even more interesting. Notice how all those people were standing while praying? When you combine their positions with what was revealed about the walls at the end, it's pretty alarming. Then there is the female titan. When she accidentally killed those people she was mortified, which leads to what I suspected all along, she didn't want to kill anyone, she was only doing what she did because her mission was that important. She wasn't actually a bad person, which can be seen even in her most mundane of actions throughout the series, especially what she does when the other character's aren't looking. This reveal emphasizes that "The Enemy" isn't actually an evil force, which changes all preconceptions up till this point. This group of titan shifters are working towards a goal they think (or fear) is worth any amount of lives lost, and it's scary to considering what in the world that might be.
That's an awful lot to say for nothing being revealed at the end XD But if you want definitive answers, I certainly didn't expect that at the end of the first season. The entire point of the story is to find answers, and I can't imagine they will until the endgame of this story begins. Season one ended with the only real goal of showing the audience how much more complicated and big this is outside of people getting eaten by giants, and I think it succeeded in that at least.
Adventure Time would be another great example. Taken at face value it is a show that relies on some pretty dumb humor and would burn out pretty damn quickly if not for the bombshell (pun intended) that was dropped in the "Ocean of Fear" episode in season 1. All of a sudden we understand a deeper meaning to the entire show that the characters themselves aren't even aware of and it's a powerful driving force that shapes the way everything works, including how we imagine things that have happened in the past or will happen in the future of the canon.
I'd say the same about Firefly. Its extremely rare for a show with just ONE season to have such an enormous fanbase, and most if it is due to the rich and deep world that Whedon created with his 'Verse'. I mean, the characters were fantastic as well and really carried the story along, but the reason why we can still imagine a continuing story (with or without the main characters) shows just how impactful the world of Firefly is.
That's really how I judge a lot of shows and movies honestly XD Can you imagine the world of Harry Potter, Star Wars, or Buffy the Vampire Slayer WITHOUT the main characters? I like to think of this all the time, if the world is captivating enough to stand alone without the protagonists to ferry us along through it, then that makes me really enjoy the show(s) =D
tl;dr - It's pretty important. =P
That's not to say your frustration isn't justified. I actually agree with your dismissal of these two cartoons, but not for the same reason.
I love Legend of Korra, and I think you're mistaken in your assessment of the show. There is a large focus on character development, just not personal character development. That's what made Avatar so huge with older audiences was it had some very deep and often times dark and complex character plot. Zuko's development being the greatest example. In Korra, you dont have that, each character is already pretty much fleshed out and fully developed, the character comes from how they develop in terms to each other and the world around them, and how the truth and realities of their situation change their already developed character. So, yes, the world is important but I don't think the show places as much emphasis on it as you're saying it does.
As for Attack on Titan; I've been readin the mnaga and watching the show and I cant say I have any clue what you're talking about. Both seem to focus too much on angst and being dark and edgy to show case much of any things else. The show and manga are pretty much broken down like this Angst>angst>angst>brief action>dark subtext>foreshadowing>angst>angst>lots of brutality and gore shoved into about five minutes>angst>angst>CLIFFHANGER!
Attack on Titan is a weak plot to me not because of the over focus on the world, but its lack there of. Its hinting at a single plot, its driving every angle towards that central plot, and it's doing a pisspoor dragonballzeque job of it, and if we're lucky it'll throw us a few crumbs to keep us interested.
While I have no doubt there are people excited for book 4, I would hardly call them the majority, and I say this going by the numbers (that 4chan brought to my attention since we're on the topic XD) Sure enough, whith each new season the viewership plummets in the millions. That certainly isn't excitement causing that. But I personally am excited to see season 4. I want to see how it ends, but I am not getting my hopes up that it will be anything but 'ok'. This series has been the most frustrating chain of red-herrings I've ever seen, and I imagine I see it in much the same way you see AoT. They just keep framing and spinning everything to have this deep meaning or significance, and nothing ever comes of it. The main villain from last season and his motives are probably the biggest and best example of that. My god that was a flaccid conclusion to such an intense start.
Also I totally get the Angst annoyance in AoT, but realistically I can't imagine how else these people should act? I mean... they're pretty much screwed, this is an apocalypse happening right before their eyes, I think this is exactly how people should react in this situation, and realistically I think they would. Scratch that, it would be even worse in real life if humans of that low tech were up against an identical enemy. AoT isn't for everyone, but it's hard to say it's executed poorly. It's just not a scenario everyone can find entertaining to watch, I'll give ya that.
I agree with you on most of what your saying. I think part of the annoyance coming the way towards Korra is it's comparison toward TLA. Avatar: the Legend of Aang had a fresh world, full of possibilities, top notch voice acting, and plenty of room to expand with heeps of cultural material to draw from. Korra has been, at its bare bones, a Roaring 20s inspired kung-fu flip book of plots and characters. I will say that its pacing is more centralized than TLAB, which is what I feel is hurting it the most. They keep stressing the importance of getting the bad guy, get the bad guy, stop the bad guy, yet we see badly thought out character exposition thrown in. OH, They're going on a painfully awkward date? But two minutes ago they were talking about how much more important getting the bad guy was. And as you put it, all the red herrings. They keep hinting that some one might be a bad guy, but the suspense they build is infuriating with how they show your guess was wrong, as if to hit you over the head and call you an idiot for ever believing it. The thing is though, I kind of feel sorry for the producers. They sort of dug themselves into this. Korra was never meant to be a multi-season series. The first season was meant to be it. I feel the end to season one was a damn good end on its own. Spine tingling and awesome with a happy end.
I feel the execution for AoT is horrid. They seem to use the angst just to build up demand for the violence and action, and then when you get its so short that you're left frustrated. Suspense should be part of the reward of the action. Instead, it feels like jonsing for a fix. To put my opinion more simply. When I watch AoT, the feeling I get before the big scene of the episode is the same feeling I get when I havnt had nicotine all day. Its annoying, and the end comes as a relief instead of as satisfaction.
In that regard, One Piece is starting to piss me off.
AoT I dislike cause of the characters...then friend pretty much went "cause this damn anime sure do enjoy killing an occasional main group char and tons upon tons of secondary characters"
So that brings up phase 2. Sure, you got the characters, they got me excited, now sell me the premise! Make me believe the world! Make me feel like I can be part of that world.
Find that fine chemistry and you've got a loyal fan out of me. It's sadly rare these days...
Moving on, I would argue that AoT is more of a character piece than anything else. At least for me, much of the enjoyment stemmed from it's simplistic plot and focus on characters who, for once in an anime, behave like actual human beings. I'm very surprised how different our views of the show are. XD With the amount of time spent on inner monologues and flashbacks I see it very much as a character piece. The world itself is not given much detail, and the plot is fairly simple (kill all titans lmao) so there isn't much to look at other then the characters' motivations.
I've also heard many complaints about it being too dark/angsty, but it's handled in a way that I feel is very logical and mature for such a bizarre scenario? Actually, it reminds me very much of all the WW2 movies and series I've absorbed. So maybe I'm just used to overly tragic and dark things, haha. The characters in AoT act like soldiers in a losing battle. And a good war story isn't about the war itself. It's about the people involved, the toll it takes on them, and how they manage it. And it's almost always soul crushingly sad, or at best bitter-sweet. I'm curious how people would have reacted if it was live-action and not "teh animes".
All that being said AoT is a show that reveals itself very slowly, but still manages to be fast paced. I think we're both correct in our views because it's fairly obvious AoT has a massive world left to reveal, it's just a matter of getting it drawn/animated!
I think that's the main disconnect, to. When someone sits down to watch a cartoon, they don't expect to see something as fucked up and depressing as that WW2 stuff you just mentioned.
I'd also argue that AoT is, for world at the brink of utter destruction, extremely hopeful. They just don't go about it through the really sappy and overly trope-y crap you mentioned above. I never felt as though AoT was dark to the point of utter despair. There is a lot of hope and belief in a brighter future, after all what else do they have to cling to but a desperate dream? Fight or die, as they say. I see AoT as a story about the power of brotherhood and the human spirit's resilience. But maybe I'm the one being too optimistic here?
Even up to the current manga update, it's still all about the Survey Corps struggle to change things for the better against all odds. The foundations, the characters and world we were presented at the start of the anime/manga, have stayed mostly the same throughout.