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F-list F-list F-list...Why do you have to be so complicated
11 years ago
So I got some notes from people here and here that they saw someone using Jess without authorization. I then did a ticket to have them shutded down. This is what I got
My ticket:
"hello
the user concerned: https://www.f-list.net/c/jess%20t
the pics stolen: https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926386.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926385.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926384.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926383.jpg and the avatar
the links of the pics which has a link to my fa profile Teckly: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/13610327/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11020391/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10810526/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8826927/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/13018449/
the journal on my profile: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6343330/ I've edited an old one to avoid a bunch of comments
I'm tired of your system to proove I own each pic. My character have a pretty clear design and even if there are other similar none of them have the unique tattoo on the right cheeck.
I'm thinking of getting a copyright of it and next time I will directly sue you, will be a way easier for me
just to tell you people are really getting tired of your takedown system"
Their answer:
"Good morning,
After researching all of your links, I have been able to conclude that one of the images are valid for removal, and that image has already been removed.
Being the commissioner does not grant you the right to determine usage of the individual art, that right is reserved for the artist alone. As your links clearly indicate, the pieces were created by someone else and we cannot honor your request to decide how their art is displayed. However, one of the images was stated, by the artist, to not be redistributed and we have honored that request.
On that note, if you continue with your threats of legal action, I will notify our attorney of your statement and will no longer be allowed to have myself, or any one of this staff, assist you."
I don't think this is normal. So if artists read this, I'm asking to add one little phrase in your TOS:
-"Do not redistribute on f-list"
This is all I ask for us commissioners to have an easy way to get the pics and our character removed. To avoid to have our characters abused and stealed
I ask people, friends, watchers to show this around if you agree this is not normal we have to fight that much against people stealing our characters
Thank you for reading
end of the rant
My ticket:
"hello
the user concerned: https://www.f-list.net/c/jess%20t
the pics stolen: https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926386.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926385.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926384.jpg https://static.f-list.net/images/ch.....ge/1926383.jpg and the avatar
the links of the pics which has a link to my fa profile Teckly: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/13610327/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/11020391/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/10810526/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/8826927/ http://www.furaffinity.net/view/13018449/
the journal on my profile: http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/6343330/ I've edited an old one to avoid a bunch of comments
I'm tired of your system to proove I own each pic. My character have a pretty clear design and even if there are other similar none of them have the unique tattoo on the right cheeck.
I'm thinking of getting a copyright of it and next time I will directly sue you, will be a way easier for me
just to tell you people are really getting tired of your takedown system"
Their answer:
"Good morning,
After researching all of your links, I have been able to conclude that one of the images are valid for removal, and that image has already been removed.
Being the commissioner does not grant you the right to determine usage of the individual art, that right is reserved for the artist alone. As your links clearly indicate, the pieces were created by someone else and we cannot honor your request to decide how their art is displayed. However, one of the images was stated, by the artist, to not be redistributed and we have honored that request.
On that note, if you continue with your threats of legal action, I will notify our attorney of your statement and will no longer be allowed to have myself, or any one of this staff, assist you."
I don't think this is normal. So if artists read this, I'm asking to add one little phrase in your TOS:
-"Do not redistribute on f-list"
This is all I ask for us commissioners to have an easy way to get the pics and our character removed. To avoid to have our characters abused and stealed
I ask people, friends, watchers to show this around if you agree this is not normal we have to fight that much against people stealing our characters
Thank you for reading
end of the rant
I fill a ticket and I get "no the artist haven't wrote do not redistribute"
basicaly a "fuck you"
whilst they are right that the artist can redistribute as they wish, they need to realize that it isn't the artist or the person that owns the character that is posting it.
I know mine has " The commissioner (and the commissioner ONLY) has the right to repost art they purchse from me. No one else except the commissioner has this right."
and something like you wrote work. But more than half of the artists haven't wrote this
And ugh, I knooooow. All artists should make ToS to cover their butts regardless!
and yes, but a lot are not experienced enough to think of this. I know one who will may soon start to take commissions
I used to not have one, and then people took advantage of some things, like not paying for YCHs and getting mad when I wouldn't hold them for a couple weeks til they could pay.
I think the big issue is the Impersonation, rather than the reposting of art. I think F-list should include rules about NOT impersonating other people, which would completely cover the issue of using art that the individual didn't commission.
answer: would be too much work for them to check everything, so let's do something to piss off the owners and discourage them
Actually, the people that help new artists the MOST are commissioners. Most of the time, Commissioners know waaaaaay more about the commissioning process than the newer/inexperienced artists do.
When I was NEW, if I had drawn a picture for someone, and their art got reposted by someone impersonating them, and then that commissioner came to me and started yelling at me, I would feel TERRIBLE and probably never work with that person again. Although if that commissioner came to me nicely and said "Hey, someone is reposting that picture you made for me, can you update your ToS so that it is less likely to happen, or so the other sites can remove the stolen images?" THAT would be nice to hear.
I think recommending changes (like adding a rule against impersonating others) does more good than threatening lawsuits.
Out of curiosity, what is your opinion of the art that random people add to e621 (when crediting the character to you, and the art to the artist)? I've seen a lot of art from random people on there, so I guess anyone can upload anything there.
"No impersonating others through roleplay or artistic means." or something to that effect. That way it doesn't even have to bother the artist, since it would be clear that the subject in the art doesn't belong to the impersonator.
" you agree that you will not upload, share, post, or otherwise distribute or facilitate distribution of any content -- including text, communications, software, images, sounds, data, or other information -- that:...
... impersonates any person or entity, including any of our employees or representatives."
You should definitely link that to them!
I'm definitively going to send this
thank you <3
Thank you for contacting us.
I'm not sure exactly what you are saying/how you are phrasing things, but have you tried being absolutely and completely civil, or apologizing if you have been sounding overly angry/frustrated? Not sure what they are used to handling.
I'm stubborn as hell and now I'm going to do everything to piss them off
Don't misundertand me, I'm nice but when they're just giving a middle finger and doing eveything to block I'm showing the teeth
Did you try contacting someone higher up? Like essentially.. "Can I speak to your manager?"
now it's just impossible
You are granted an automatic copyright by producing works in France thanks to European Copyright legislation, Geneva Universal Copyright Convention etc. You don't have to register it. Registration just makes it easier to prove in a court of law that you created the copyright (of course, you have a somewhat vast history now that would be hard to fight in a court too). Also, the person that owns copyright is the one that produced the works.
See my other comment on how to deal with unauthorized reproductions of your character in future, it avoids even the need to prove to e621 that your copyright have been infringed. Art produced by artists under your works (a copyright license) does not automatically grant others to repost your copyrighted work even if it is included as part of other copyright works.
I agree with the stance they are taking on the issue as im sure it helps avoid alot of hassle and work on there end that they do not get paid to do. Im sure if you went to the artists that drew the pics and had them send a message on your behalf it could be fine.
You gotta ask yourself is this really worth fighting over?
You know there are dozen of people using my pics? Imagine if I all the time have to ask for it and all. It's easier to ask the artists to add the little sentence. They're not doing anything to help, they're doing anything to stop you to take them down
but they're searching for the line of "do not redistribute"
People keep forgetting that the admins/mods/troubleshooters aren't just sitting at their desks 24/7 answering all tickets within a couple minutes of them coming in X_X
One thing that Flist COULD do is to rephrase their rules to include "No impersonating other individuals, in art or roleplay".
I believe having the artist either declair that you own the pic on the original posting or having all pics you commission have some kind of do not redistribute water mark put on the image itself or on the submission info. The thing is you are the one that has to do thisbwork. Not the flist staff. Pay them and i bet they will be much more accomidating toooo!
" you agree that you will not upload, share, post, or otherwise distribute or facilitate distribution of any content -- including text, communications, software, images, sounds, data, or other information -- that:...
... impersonates any person or entity, including any of our employees or representatives."
Section 4. Conduct on Site. https://www.f-list.net/doc/tos.php
So maybe the individual helping teckly was being a brat and straight up unprofessional by not knowing the actual rules.
It doesn't help that online you can't tell tone, so anything that might seem aggressive or rude might not sound AS bad if it were spoken.
If there was more information on the profile stating that they are Teckly, linking to this profile here on FA, or anything of that ilk you could ask them to remove the entire profile based on a ToS violation. Unfortunately, the profile in question is too sparse to be able to demonstrate that.
The request in question was directly related to an image takedown - something that has to come from the artist (who in most cases will be the one that has final say over how and where the art may be posted).
"" you agree that you will not upload, share, post, or otherwise distribute or facilitate distribution of any content -- including text, communications, software, images, sounds, data, or other information -- that:...
... impersonates any person or entity, including any of our employees or representatives.""
But the argument could be made that the rule DOES support Teckly's wishes.
1) Is the profile intended to be an impersonation of Teckly / Jess?
If so, do not go down the image takedown route. Ask for the whole profile to be removed under that section of the ToS using the images as evidence that they have created a character with a similar or the same name, using the same images, and that as such the profile itself is in violation of the ToS but not the individual images.
2) Is the image being used without the permission of the person who has control over the distribution of the image (usually the artist)?
If so, the artist can issue a request for the image to be taken down or globally stamp that their images are not to be redistributed without their permission except by commissioners.
The frustration happened (from what I could see) because they were denying the impersonation, for some reason. Although I'm not sure if the individual assisting Teckly is aware of the situation (or refusing to see it in that light for whatever reason - counter-frustration or being rubbed the wrong way by the tone Teckly set).
The second situation you mention is negligible in the terms of 'character theft' (essentially theft of intellectual property) but definitely something that they've taken care of in the instance of the one image removed based on the individual artists' ToS. Teckly mentioned that their SPECIFIC issue wasn't with art distribution, but using Jess the character.
They were contacted about the very specific issue; a request to take down images. Because that was the issue they were contacted about that is the issue they dealt with. At no point in the posted email is it mentioned that there may be a violation of the ToS for impersonation.
"After reviewing these images, they do not impersonate any entity, employee, or representative.
Thank you for contacting us."
Which is funny, cuz in the person's profile it says "A simple wolf with a range of fursonalitys, the female is a fancy and famous or at most recognizable, fursona, she is my only and favorite Pure wolf Character"
The important thing to read there is "reviewing these images". The most important part is that it would seem the request that was made was to remove one, or more, images based on impersonation and not the profile itself. The image alone would not show intent to impersonate (any more than me posting an image of Buckingham Palace would show the intent of impersonating the queen - I could just really like the architecture.).
If you wish to go down the impersonation route you want to show that the entire profile, when taken as a whole, contains enough information to be deemed impersonating another entity and have the whole profile removed.
You have my sympathy, teckly.
So commissioning art of your own character means you have no right over your own character?
Dafuk?
Commissioning a piece of artwork which contains your character means you do not have control over how and where that particular piece of artwork is distributed; that control goes to the artist who created the art.
The comparison to be made is taking a photograph (or if you prefer making a painting). I can take a photograph of the White House, the Eiffel Tower, or Buckingham Palace. I own the photograph, and the rights to how that photograph is distributed. I can post it online, do what I want with it, even though I do not own what is in that photograph.
The exception to this is if I had entered in to a contract with the person who owned that building that I would not distribute the art and they had complete control over where it should be distributed. In that case I grant them the rights I would usually have, and in that case they would then be able to request the takedown by presenting that contract showing that they owned the rights to the piece of art.
and the pain is for the commissioner who's trying to get it down
As a simple example, like Staggard said, it's about impersonation that's the big issue. Sadly this is nothing new. Look at some of the other examples you can find on that sight. Sailor Moon, Goku, Link, Mario, Princess Peach, Deadpool, etc. What's happening to you is the same thing that happens to countless other studios, artists, and creators, the difference is the level of popularity and how close to home it hits. People want to play as famous characters, regardless of the scale of their fame. They see something they like and go "I'd like to play that characters/I'd like to play WITH that character."
Hell you can even still find sexyfur characters on there, sometimes with the pictures that are on F-lists's DNP list. (Till F-list's staff catches them anyways) Worst case that happens to those profiles? They get told to remove the art. Profiles don't get deleted. If every copyrighted character was removed F-list would be dead. Even Bernal and his very real legal team can't stop people from making characters based off Sasha or Champagne or whoever.
What you're suggesting would help deter things a bit, but getting the artwork removed isn't really the main problem is it? Are you upset about the use of your commissioned artwork, or are you more upset that some stranger is taking your character and using them as they please? Personally I'd be more livid about the latter.
But I've also gone on a few crusades of my own, and I know from experience how tiring it is. On both FA and DA I'd spent years dealing with a trace artist that was copying one of my friend's (and other artist's) works and posting them, getting stupidly popular. I had to practically twist a few arms just to get the artwork removed, and the only reason the user got banned on FA was because they found out he was underage, not his repeated offenses of tracing.
I'm not telling ya to give up. I'm not telling ya it's hopeless, I'm just being a realist and sharing my 2cents and experience in the matter. You look like you got a lot of fight in ya on this still and you're reaching out to other artists to help deter this a bit, even if it won't eliminate the main problem. Good luck.
And I know how it's tiring, I did one against an asshole for more than two years. But I'm terribly stubborn and when I say something I do it.
For the problem I know I will never be able to avoid thieves. But I want an easier way for the commissioners to get removed the artworks and characters. At this point it takes around 2 hours if you're lucky to get 4 pics down on the website.
But it could be 5-10 mins if the artists add the "do not use/repost without the permission of the artist and commissioner" Just this phrase can save a lot of time and cost nothing
And if you don't want people to use your characters art there, you should make your own profile for the character on the site and have it verified. IF you have your own OC verified, you can report imposter characters and art and they'll remove it
But -> However, one of the images was stated, by the artist, to not be redistributed and we have honored that request.
Is a viable way to get stuff taken down.
And this is a gripe I have about people posting these 'stolen' journals...
Unless they make claim to the art, the character, and start using canon Information, and attempt to take on your identity, is anything really "stolen"?
Being part of the RP scene for a while, Im sure these people are just using Pretty Pics to Pretty up their Profile. Most if not all the time, the characters on thos epages are just random fabricated charactersh nice pics and made up names. Nothing is really 'stolen'
Besides, you're pretty well known and art of your character is pretty much everywhere, Im sur emost people can tell a fake 'for fun' rp page from the real Author of the character.
And yet again, us comissioner get a FUCKING GIANT MIDDLE FINGER.
In this community we have NO FUCKING RIGHT! even if we're throwing our money to the artists allowing them to live of this we still get this middle finger.
That's what it's pissing me off
Its just this is more of you taking it personally then it being Stolen and theft. Oversensitive feels like a strong and insensitive word to use....
I would take a huge offense myself if someone actually tried to steal my characters. But fake RP pages just using pretty pictures? No harm to me. But I only see it that way cause I used to be one of those people.
I really dont know what to say. Best I can really come up with, is tell EVERY artist you have, or will commission to put that line of Dialouge - Do not redistribute/Do not redistribute to F-list in big Bold.
If that doesnt help, then the onyl way to keep this from happening...is to make every commission private and to keep it out of the public eye.
And I think you said you have an F-list? Get it verified, if people are taking your pics, have a personal Prifile to prove that everyone else isn;t you, and it 'usally, but not always' gives you a better leg to stand on to get images removed.
This is a loosing battle as people have already said....I see this journals VERY often, and its the same story :/
Also if the person steals the art on imgur and only links to it, they do nothing.
They don't care.
Happened to me where someone was using multiple photoshopped versions of an image from my char.
First it was hosted on f-list, it was kinda annoying having those taken down as it was never posted by the artist, had to try to find the old email conversations.
But at least it was removed.
Recently I found out.. yeah. It was posted on imgur and linked and they don't care at all.
In the end, my char also has a clear design with the face marking being unique so far. But I still have to prove it's my char and has been done for me.
This is so annoying!
Extraordinary pressure is put on the victim of said misappropriation to prove that what they own was in fact intended to be theirs, when it is clear and obvious by any elementary deduction.
About the time I started getting fed up with F-list's system for handling this is when I had to do it for Reia, as seen. < http://www.furaffinity.net/view/106...../#cid:78258552 >
This is an issue that has been handled in far easier and less headachey fashions since long before F-list's creators scratched their site into existence and the whole affair could use an overhaul, but don't expect them to make it easier to defend your own property or seek due moderation for those who would impersonate. Especially since F-list seems to have reached enough critical mass of popularity that they don't need to worry about becoming obscure any time soon.
1) "On that note, if you continue with your threats of legal action, I will notify our attorney of your statement and will no longer be allowed to have myself, or any one of this staff, assist you."
This is actually fairly common practise in a lot of companies.
The policy of the company I work for (a video games company) is that if any person (customer or otherwise) threatens legal action there is a set reply to send (involving basically a similar tone; that they will need to contact our legal department). This is because when a threat of legal action is made the company will go through it's attorney or legal representative to determine whether the threat is one they need to be worried about or not.
If they make a very specific legal threat it's sent to the company lawyer to look at. In that respect the reply you received was not entirely unusual.
2) "Being the commissioner does not grant you the right to determine usage of the individual art, that right is reserved for the artist alone. As your links clearly indicate, the pieces were created by someone else and we cannot honor your request to decide how their art is displayed. However, one of the images was stated, by the artist, to not be redistributed and we have honored that request."
The issue is you most likely do not own the images that you linked. The simple truth is that in most cases the artist will grant you a number of rights to use that image, but the artist retains the creative ownership of the image and control over where it is posted. Some artists specifically spell this out in their ToS. (In other words, they have no way of knowing whether the profile in question was created by someone who the artist could have given the rights to use the images to; unless spelled out in the ToS/contract when you got the commission done there's not a lot to stop an artist doing this if they wished).
However, as you can see where the artist stated to not redistribute (the wishes of the artist who retains control over how the image can be used) they did take down the image. My first suggestion would be see if any of the other artists had posted similar things (even if it's a general statement about not redistributing any of their artwork) and link that alongside the specific link to the image - highlight if the artist has already stated to not redistribute, or that only the commissioner has rights to redistribute.
The comparison would be that I can take a photograph of Buckingham Palace or the White House, and I will own that photograph and could post that photograph online. I don't own what's in it, but I do own the photograph itself.
Please note that I am very describing the specific images here, and not the character (because that's a whole different ball game that I'm well out of my league even starting to discuss).
If that is the case and you can link to where the artist has stated that I have no doubt that the other images will be taken down, as the one with the "Do Not Redistribute" tag was.
The simple truth is that these are very similar to the policies used by Facebook ( https://www.facebook.com/help/249141925204375 ) and Twitter ( https://twitter.com/tos - Section 9) amongst others.
- "Art belong to the commissioners and the artists, don't repost without permission of one of them"
it would be more complete like this ;w;
well from my point of view. After there are differents rules listed in the artist TOS
Then there's the impersonating which is really bad on FA
In America if you order a commissioned work the person filing the contract/paying for the work owns the pieces. The artist only has the right to display it for promotional or example of work. This is further changed or modified based on wording in the contract between the employer (you) and employee (artist). Yes this is summed up in 13 pages in copyright laws but that is the barebones distillation.
Second
Flist is a mixed bag depending on who gets the ticket. I've had cool as hell mods turn around and deal with artwork of mine with no issue and then get others (normally folk who have a ton of friends or fuckbuddies using stolen work/characters in their own friend list) who then demand a note from the person you hired for the work, your blood type and a copy of your three receipts for jack in the box to prove you have the right to ask for its removal.
Frankly that's just how it works.
But I agree with you and I posted about it in your other journal.
afaik there arent any other cat/dragon hybrids with the same name...
also i apparently broke thier rules by putting a 1 following my name since i couldnt use the proper one.