you mentioned the markets prices being destroyed by amateur artists and i have to say, alot of 'amateur'' and newer artists have to price low to get any kind of commissions or attention, otherwise they get nothing, and for some of us, getting nothing means that we also dont get to eat or can barely make rent when money is tight. While i dont agree with people bitching and pestering artists about their prices because there ARE other artists out there who do charge less (not saying the people who charge more dont deserve the money and commissions) I can understand why some artists price so low. This fandom seems particularly bad for people bitching about art and your right art is never a NEED its a WANT, and sadly alot of people dont realize that and accept it. I dont charge low because i want to in all honesty, I charege low because if i dont no one pays attention to my work and it will sit in my gallery for months without so much as a comment, but if i price lower i get faves and usually i can make a sale.

also i apologize if some of this doesnt make sense lol i kinda just woke up

don't worry I'm just waking up too... and I woke up to something that triggered this rant AKA "go there it's fucking cheaper" being said to someone in a group I'm a member of... Hence this rant existing I needed to vent some of it out.

if everyone started to price fairly that issue would eventually take care of itself... When I say amateur... I should have said hobbyist instead maybe... but I know this is an utopist dream... it's never gonna happen. I did also say charge what you are worth, value of effort, talent, and time comes into account here... you can't price a stick figure the price of a full painting and yes getting known is hard ... but underpricing yourself is not gonna get you there faster, only time and effort. I've been there... and trust me I've gotten more attention since I started to price myself fairly than when I was undercharging.

I didn't believe my art professors when they told me to RAISE my prices if my work wasn't selling, but they were totally right. I upped my rates at the beginning of this year, and I have MORE work now, not less.

No one will value your work unless you value it yourself. No one HAS to charge low rates. It does NOT gain you more customers. All it brings is cheapskates who'll try and pull you down if you ever hint that your work might be worth more. I wish more babby-artists understood this. :(

AMEN!!!! So glad you're commenting here and adding valid points to my angry rant XD

I think it's a common frustration for those of us who've learned the hard way that underpricing doesn't mean good sales. =) It just means a lot of work (or none at all) and frustration for very little in return.

sadly people like me have to charge low , I have to lower my prices even more some times to even get a commission or two

If you work fast it's a legit business strategy!

I can work very fast but that all depends on the image itself and how the commissioner is , If the commissioner is a very picky person a drawing that should only take 1 hour could take 8 (that has happened to me)

Omg, I feel you on that picky part. "The rainbow earrings are in the wrong order! Redo it!!" O__O . It's the reason I started limiting revisions to 1 per commission! It may seem mean but trust me.. Saves a lot of heartache.

I'm the kind of person who will edit the life out of something just to make the person happy , I had to re-do a full lineart ones because the commissioner changed their mind on the clothing and I had finished the full image already , I am a bit of a push over in that respect

Haha, I guess I'm definitely not such a kind person to allow such a huge revision that might practically be another commission! I suppose that was very kind of you though!

XD to kind for my own good sometimes

Nooooo nono, don't let people take advantage of you like that! :( Set a hard limit on revisions and get feedback on each stage of the drawing so you don't end up wasting time on people who can't make up their minds. I have a 3-edits policy. During the SKETCH phase of the drawing, I'll go back and forth with the commissioner up to three times for free to make whatever changes they want, and if they want more revisions after that, I charge a fee per revision. Likewise if they wait to ask for changes after I've inked, I charge a fee. That fee goes up more if they want major changes after I've colored their piece. I work in traditional media. So unless it's something *I* misinterpreted and screwed up, I HAVE to charge extra to redraw things or it's a huge waste of my time. I literally have to go back to the sketch with my lightbox and redraw the whole thing if a commissioner decides to change things after I've inked or colored.

Setting a hard limit on revisions with a fee attached past a certain point makes most people keep their required changes and edits to a reasonable level. It protects them AND you.

I couldnt do that , If someone isnt happy with something that have gotten from me It would really rip me to bits , I understand why others don't do it but I do , It doesnt happen all the time , I just get it a couple times every so often

Let me tell you a secret: I've never had to charge a fee for revisions.

I have the policy in my ToS anyway because it encourages people to be concise about their changes and lets them know it's not an open-ended situation where they can make me redraw things again and again, just because. Yeah, it sounds mercenary to charge for revisions, but it's really not. I absolutely want people to be happy with the work they get from me! I also don't want to waste my time because the commissioner suddenly decides the first three edits were okay but how about we change him from an overweight fox in suspenders to a skinny otter with a rainbow tail and walrus tusks? (and yes, I have had ridiculous edit requests like this for real) I want to hone the sketch into something they'll be happy with, not spend my time endlessly redoing things.

There need to be limits when it comes to working with some people. The vast majority of commissioners are fine, but occasionally you'll get that one that isn't. When that happens, it's nice to be able to say "Okay, I can make the changes you want this time, but if you ask for major edits after this, I'm going to have to charge you an additional fee." It helps prevent nightmare scenarios where you end up redrawing the pic time after time, until you're thoroughly sick of it and don't want to work with the commissioner anymore.

I saw your prices and you are indeed underpricing yourself... I wish this wouldn't happen... but the truth is that it does cause artists like you are bullied into lowering their prices to make a single sale... and it keeps happening because those "cheap" people know they can and know that they win in the end and that somewhere they'll find a good unknown artist willing to do cheap labor work because they don't think they can get paid what they are worth and once that artist realize that they can be paid more fairly for what they do... they move to another cattle... and the circle continues. The only way this would stop happening is if there was no more cattles... but that's not gonna happen, but it still needs to be said. YOU ARE WORTH MORE, YOU HAVE TALENT, AND YOU SHOULD BE PAID FAIRLY for IT! *hugs you*

-hugs back- Thank you for the kind words dear , sadly you are right it will mostly not get much better because of people being bullied to be cheaper , I feel really bad for the amazing artists (like you) who get told they are to expensive , It's a massive kick in the teeth for anyone.

I've learned to brush it off most of the time... I know good clients are willing to pay my prices and that's good enough for me

It's a shame there are so many who just want cheap work

Right on! Down with the oppression of the commissioner who is too cheap to pay proper amounts of money! Of course I just offer commissions on here for some quick cash so I guess I don't really have a say in this kinda topic!

Hope everythings all and well Soryane!

yes Yes all is well I was just ticked off by some comment somewhere of that type of person who bullies artists into lowering their prices ya know... it's indirect but it still happens and it pisses me off!

Man, there are really people like that on a site that offers some of the cheapest prices ever? I would say i'm surprised but I guess that wouldn't be true. I wish everyone would at the VERY least establish a 50$ limit unless its "on Sale" But on the other hand.. some people aren't even worth that. I guess it depends.. I know.. A real wishy washy opinion!

Glad all is well though!

Don't get me started on what artists get paid for their work vs. what writers get paid for their work.

I really wish I could charge more, but sadly, I have to really undercharge myself and even then, I rarely get commissioned... As it stands, my last commission I took on was back in October... I've also kept them open all the time but it doesn't make a different... And I know Im not the best out there and need a lot of work, but still... it just kinda really hurts to not get anyone interested in your work...

I really wish I could break into doing commission full time, especially now since I've had to quit my day job to go back to school...I mean, I have savings that will tide me over for a bit, but I was hoping to buffer it with commissions...guess that not going to happen...

But yeah, complaining aside lol, I can see why some artists cheapen themselves. Its not the best in the world, but at least it (kinda) keeps the money coming in 8/

No one will value your work unless you value it yourself.

You don't *HAVE* to undercharge. There is nothing preventing you from charging a fair price for your art, except you. Conversely, if you want commissions, you have to advertise. Put yourself out there. Do work and post it so people see what you can do. It takes quite a bit of networking to attract business, and not everyone has time for that. Just putting out a single "open for commissions" sign and waiting for people to come to you doesn't tend to work unless you've got a large and active fan-base to begin with. Most of us don't have that, so we have to make up for it by doing the legwork and selling ourselves.

I post here and on several social media sites and communities when I have new stuff to show off. I do themed specials and sales, and the occasional YCH. I run regular live art streams on Tigerdile where I work on larger commissions or open for stream slots. It's a LOT of work, but it's totally paid off. I had to RAISE my rates this year because of the workload, and increasing my prices hasn't made my queue smaller. I've gotten MORE work since I upped my prices. It feels insane, but it's true. Now, I'm able to dedicate myself to this pretty much full time and not trying to balance it with school or another job, so I get that this isn't a schedule everyone can manage, but it WORKS.

I agree with charging more. I love getting "cheap" work but then it'll only be a sketch or an icon, something that's quick to do. If you can't afford it, then you are not the target audience of that artist or writer. You can afford the full colour etc pieces when you treat yourself or simply have more money!

People say I charge too much, but I have the right amount of work on my plate, which is ideal. If you can't afford my stories, you're not my (commissioner) target audience. Cheap is not always better and I like to price with regards to quality. I will always pay for quality!

You two are a bit expensive. And worth every penny. If I can't afford either of you, I wait and save. As you are both worth waiting for :) .

It bothered me at MFF that people would look at my prices and still be like WOAH JEEZ, OOOFFF... (A few people commented aloud)

While in reality, I'm still underpriced

I hear a good rule of thumb is to price yourself by the hour, and when you START (depending on experience, supply and demand) it is a good idea to work minimum wage, then increase from there, or to work at your other job's hourly rate

And I priced myself at 10$/hour, but I mistook how long it takes me to do some things so I have some work that I'll be making 6$ an hour for instead... But hey live and learn.

Anyway, yeah. Fandom prices are ridiculously low and within the fandom you find out just how entitled to cheap and/or free art people can be

Souvent c'est par manque de cofniance? (oui je le dis en francais pour mieu m'exprimer et pas dire n'importe quoi)
Pas tan d'avoir peur de pas avoir de client a cause de prix trop elever. mais beaucoup on des problemes d'estime de soit et je crois que ca ce reflet sur leur prix.
''est-ce que ca vauz vraiment ca?'' et la ils ce comparent a un autre artiste et ne savent pas quoi faire.
Mais je comprend ce que tu veux dire, j'ai moi meme 2-3 fois été voir des artiste que je toruvais malade et que je watch, vu leur prix ridicul! jai fait ''ben voyons dont tu vaux plus que ca chouette/coco'' et jai étét leur en parler.

THANK YOU

I've been meet with 'you're too expensive' a few times before, when charge 9 USD for a headshot. I work more than 5 hours on a headshot. Already there, I undercharge a lot, so when I get met with that 'its too expensive', I simply shake my head in disappointment.
As you say, art is something you have to pay for. Its a thing that people put HOURS and HOURS of time into, to satisfy a customer.

So really, people should just shut up when they tell someone they are too expensive. No artist wants to hear that.

I know I have been passed by in the dealers den for starting out with high rates, also con rate >.> but I do quite a bit of deals and bargains because I too am a bargain shopper, but its different with art when you get serious with it and know the industry. In the fandom I have a whole different rate than I do for my typography, magazine/zine printing and wedding contracts (Quaker style). Mostly because that isn't the market here. I follow the market rates for this market. I try to price according to my talent, the going rate, and by what makes me feel good about my work.

http://mowensolinskygallery.com/dav.....n/gallery.html ( on the bottom, Reef or the hotlink which I prefer people not abuse http://mowensolinskygallery.com/dav.....nt/TheReef.jpg ) that sort of art in the fandom would be I betcha 500-800. This artist is in my local gallery and I go there and just stare at it and drool. We've talked before and the gallery really wants my inks, and I was ashamed to tell them how much they sold for (barely at cost in fandom). The real art world is real money. At the same time, it can also be really high because of gallery commission, and space rent, and many of the things fandom artists don't invest in. I think his stuff was in the 1300 range and that is modest as they are half the size of humans for most of them and he makes his own wood carved frames. Those are prices to sell.

The fandom is cheap. Its also full of AMAZING patrons, and full of the dollar wavers. I am so tired of having such low self esteem in the fandom, wanting to be able to say HEY! Would you work YOUR 9-5 job for less than a dollar, would you work for less than 6? No way right? Thought so. People tell me how nice if must be to be supported and sit around having fun all day. Art ain't always fun. I spend 10 hours a day at the drafting table, practice warm ups, folios, classes (yes just like most people with training courses, artists take those too), marketing, PR, managing. We do the jobs of a whole team for peanuts. I actually went to school for being an art manager, not the actual artist. I can rant for hours about things that even make casual artists blink (but makes professionals nod their heads) I mean I have to wear a back brace and have wrist support, I usually hurt more and work harder doing this than standing for 8 bucks and hour and wanting to kill myself in a public job.

I did this year raise my prices, and even then only a minor mark up, so I could afford my upcoming medical expensiveness of first time with medications. I know I still have art issues to practice, but I certainly do not deserve the slavery I was working at before. Right now I have a ladder auction up, and people actually had the gall to tell me it was too high priced, and ridiculed me for not including shipping. WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD!!! Its not even high priced, its one hell of a bargain, its almost too low. People then rail into your talent the second they can't afford it. Giving "advise" and commenting on how you should charge less till your art is on the Kacey, Golden, etc level. GEE THANKS. I once had someone say that they would love to hire me when my level matched my price...because a single character 8x11 traditional with not extras charged, with bg and full color at 35 was too expensive. =,=

*flips desk*

*flips desk with you* You certainly do not deserve to be a slave! Glad you raised your prices!

I never ever EVER would complain about what people price because they deserve it. I know they thought it out. They know how much time it takes. And how much effort. I just know I'll have to wait til I get a job and save up to buy from them x3
Its only fair. :3
I do buy from cheaper artists, only cause I have no money. But I never asked for cheaper prices, and I never question them. They probably do deserve to up their prices and should though. :3

No Sory. I need art to live. TO LIVE!!!!

But I agree. Pricewank is the worst.

LIVE GOD DAMMIT LIVE!!!!

I've never been able to get more than $50 for a story commission. Maybe $60. It's hard as hell, and I only do it because I enjoy it. Some of your comments on your livestream and this journal make me wonder if I should charge MORE. I think the work is worth it. Maybe others will think so too.

From start to finish, a $50 story commission can take me 5-6 hours of pure writing, and that's being conservative. And it doesn't cover the equivalent of the pre-work sketch (synopsis), or editing and tweaking. If I had to estimate, that $50 ended up taking 10 hours of work.

I DID shoot myself in the foot having to abandon 1 or 2 commissions due to a serious writer's block. I'm in the process of making good on them.