This is pretty rude, shit.

Way to be a fuckboy because an artist is trying to actually earn what he's worth.


Rude asshole.

Yeah really, what furries are willing to pay for quality art commissions is downright insulting.

Agreed!

I enjoy your icon

Gosh, I'm so sorry, I didn't realize trying to support myself as an artist was such a horrible, nauseating, thing. What a horrible mistake I've made!

Hey look another minority opinion

Oh no, how DARE he insult your fuzzy dignity!

This should have been a comment kept to yourself.
If you don't like Patreon that is fine, if you don't like the way it's changing things that's fine, but keep it to your own page or others who share that opinion. The only thing that you could accomplish by going up to someone who has a Patreon and saying what you have is to upset them, and make them feel crappy. That's not okay. Even if the artist knows you are wrong, the words still upset them I'm sure. So please think about who you say what you say to and when, because if it's your goal to go around hurting people that's not a good thing to do it can only cause hurt feelings and alienation.
If suckmcjones had posted a link to Patreon begging for money on your page, I might say you had a point but seriously self promoting is not a crime in the artist's own space. And does not deserve to be met with such detestment.

I'm sure suck_mcjones is losing sleep over this.

Im not in a position to donate yet but when I can I will, good luck dude!

Fuck these people hating on Patreon and artists actually wanting to *not* make a living purely on undervalued furry commissions.

Yeah, fuck these people and their having their opinions about a site that many artists heavily abuse by getting money for just having a well-known name, and then stop taking commissions period and only do personal work, because their patreon nets.them more than the average person makes. You tell them!

Jokes aside, the above isnt false and there are many reasons to be iffy about Patreon. Few people use it the way its intended and some of the most successful artists in the fandom get crazy money without doing the work they promise, and never again take commissions because it puts their art on hogher demand and people will become Patrons in the hope of getting something (though likely never will). It often promotes artists getting lazy and many do. While some can use one for a worthy cause and work hard for it, many do not, and condemning people for having logical opinions (though expressed in a childish way) is asinine. Beside, your white knight end of the spectrum is just as bad as the "Fuck Patreon" side, just the other side of the coin.

So In some cases patreon is good because it sorts out SOME, not all, of the artists that just aren't wirth a crap and are just in it for the money.

Patreon itself isn't bad. Just some artists have terrible worth ethic. Its really up to the artists to not fall into a negative pattern.

Agreed

You mean a negative pattern like 'trying' to support themselves by doing commissions for dirt cheap?

Artists are people too, if they all used the price ranges most furry artists use they would need to work 24/7 to even just make enough to support themselves. Artists tend to be underpaid very frequently in society in general, so if some are using things like patreon to help support themselves then good for them!

If you read my post, you'd know that is nowhere near what I was saying... at all. In fact, not once did I ever mention that artists shouldn't be trying to support themselves (even more so, I'm perplexed how you even came to that conclusion). The entire post was about artists who abuse Patreon, take money from their fans, and don't give them anything worthwhile in return.

SORRY, BUT unwatching someone for the mere act of HAVING a Patreon implies that you are trying to condemn them for trying to make a living because now you can't commission them. You are scum.

A production company charges you money to see their movie they made, and I don't see folks complaining about it. So how is setting up a Patreon any different?

If you're familiar with the concept of an hourly wage, you'll know that a worker (in any industry) is paid for the time they spend working. Wage also takes into account the level of skill required to do the task. Say, for example, the skill to write a screenplay, or to draw/paint concept art and storyboards, or to handle a camera and frame a shot.

Sketches, illustrations, and paintings all take time to create, and skill to produce them. This is the basic foundation of what makes a picture worth paying for. An artist, like any person in any profession, deserves financial support for the time and skill that goes into their work.

W O W

I know right?

Making art doesn't actually cost any money to make? Oh man, this is news to me! I wish I had known this YEARS ago before I bought all these art supplies! Hmm, I probably shouldn't have bought this computer specifically for art then, and that tablet and these art programs as well, since it apparently shouldn't have cost me anything. Oh! I guess I shouldn't be paying for my computers electricity as well while I'm drawing, huh? Whoopsie!

It costs money to buy the tablet, the computer, the software, and the electricity it takes to run these items. Or if it's traditional work, it costs money to get the paper, pencils, pens, markers, paint, or whatever else the artist uses, and again, the computer, software, scanner and electricity the artist needs to post the traditional work online for people to see. And while all of these things can be paid off over time, the artist still has to profit in some way to pay for other things like food, shelter and bills.

But then again, you're not an artist, so I guess I should make the assumption that you won't understand any of this, and tell me people should just get a job to afford such things. Well, that would be great if getting a job were that easy, and for most people it's near impossible at the moment. Me for example, I'm getting turned down for simple work like fast food and dishwashing, even though I have years of past experience doing these things.

The point is, you're being rude and incredibly disrespectful, and I honestly don't think any artist should have to put up with people like you.

I am sorry you feel this way, but it is absolutely wrong.

Why does making a movie cost money? First you have to pay people for their skills screenplay writer, team of writers, actors, maybe animators, 3d modelers, director, producer, production assistants, lighting directors, color coordinators, camera operators, musicians etc. And you have to pay them for their time time (most people are paid for their time dedicated to work)
You also have a lot of equipment to rent or buy, cameras, computers, lighting, stage and props, 3d modeling software, all kinds of other software, etc etc

Now artists do all of this but on a much smaller scale
They have to be their own writer, their own lighting director, their own color coordinator, their own camera operator
They have to use their skills which they spent time years of their life developing, perhaps even tens of thousands of dollars on formal education
They also have to buy equipment traditional art supplies are expensive, not to mention digital ones, and software? Do you know how much photoshop costs?

So pray tell, how does drawing a picture not cost money?

Oh another cost to movies is promotion and advertising
Costs a lot of money to promote and it's important to promote elsewise who will come pay for the movie?
But it's ...wrong If artists self promote?

That's a very narrow point of view.
Why do film production costs money? I mean Chris Evans just have to talk infront of a green screen, and the guy who puts the background just have to do some work in a computer, why is this movie even getting paid if it isn't a "real job"?
Simple, they get paid for their talent, their knowledge and the time invested on the work they are doing. It's what is fair.

A film could've done by free if everyone agreed not to charge but how about the materials? the cameras, the softwares to edit them, the tools and proops? those things costs money right?

Same goes with making a single draw. The artist has invested money in tablet, perhaps a drawing software (legally) owned. Isn't it fair that the artist gets also an income from drawing?

If you so love the old school commission system, have you EVER paid a worth price for a commission? or you live under the $50 is what's worth for 2 characters fullshaded! I wont pay a penny less.

If you want an artist to take a living from commissions rather than patreon you should pay them AT LEAST minimum wage per hour they invest in your work.

Have you ever paid $120-200 for a commission? no? well that's still not even a decent price. But anytime artists go over this price people highly criticize them for being so expensive so it's kind of where they are doom to roam.

But even this wouldn't allow the artists to make for a living, I mean why work at minimum wage if he can go work at McDonald's night shift for a bit more and be sure you will get paid? (you dont have to wait days for your commission lists to fill)?

What you want is to be able to see their art and enjoy it, don't you? so why so eager to send them to get a "real job" so they have no time to draw pr0ns for you to enjoy?

Patreon allows PEOPLE WHO ACTUALLY CARES to support the artists of their like into doing what they do. Nobody is putting a gun on your head to put money on patreon.

Patreon allows the artists to have a solid income every month and in return all he has to do is fulfill a quota he promised to the people he's getting paid by.

If you think about it, this isnt so different from getting a job.
"A job allows the artist to have a solid income every 15 days, all he has to do is fulfill a quota the boss imposed"

But for the mosts part this arent just donations (yeah some artists don't offer stuff in return). People is getting stuff by donating, such as PSD's from which a few things can be learn.

It's 2015, the internet is becoming a way for people to earn a living doing whatever they can.
We don't have a shortage of mcdonalds workers or builders, however we have a shortage of artists and designers, so stop whining and living in the pasts.

Yeah it does. Hardware, software, materials, and labor hours.

Other than, you know,materials,paper and pencil and marker for traditional work,which are fairly costly, or the computer, programs and possibly tablet to produce quality digital work. Never mind the idea that it takes time, which should be at some wage rate if someone is drawing as a job, rather than for themselves. By your logic, those working on effects for a movie, and the artists who do the movie posters should do so for free, because it doesn't cost anything?

What.

Drawing a picture costs time. It costs art supplies(Paint, pencils, tablets) and electricity.

So it does cost money, it just doesn't cost money like you seem to think.

So you like getting stuff for free. Who doesn't? Most people, if given the choice to pay for something or not pay for it, but still get to enjoy that something either way, will generally choose to accept it for free.

But imagine you do something that makes you happy, and you share it because that makes others happy, and it's all free, so you do it in your spare time when you're not doing the other thing that actually pays your bills. Then one day it comes to your attention that you could be doing that thing that makes you happy full time, AND pay your bills. You discover that there are so many people out there who enjoy what you do so much that they would gladly and happily pay you to do more of it - people who enjoy what you do so much that they want to let YOU do your work for YOU, and not just work for others.

Whatever it is that you just enjoy doing, imagine people saying "I will gladly and happily pay you to keep doing that, because I enjoy seeing you do it."

Then imagine a bunch of people treating you like some kind of shitsack if you don't turn down an offer like that. People who aren't concerned with how you take care of your own needs, just so long as you continue providing them with entertainment at no cost to them. People who act like you have stolen something from them if you ask so much as 5 bucks (or less!) from them to see what you've put your own time and effort into. Seriously, realize what you are doing when you tell someone that if they do not just GIVE YOU FREE SHIT, they are bad, or selfish, or wrong, or otherwise deserving of disregard, disrespect, or some other negative bullshit from you.

People who say they would turn that down, that they'd say "no thank you, I will continue to work longer, less-fulfilling hours working for someone else, making less money, and restricting my own work to just whatever time is left over" are probably lying, even if it's themselves they're lying to. Of course, there will always be those artists who ARE successfully brow-beaten by the entitled vocal minority, people who will buy into this notion that asking for ANYTHING in exchange for sharing your work is just inherently sinful and robbing people. Plenty of artists will sell themselves short, will limit their own potential for success, and will continue to concede to this pressure that they must be a never-ending free/cheap producer of content, and that they should just be thankful and grateful that anyone even wants their work at all.

Imagine people telling musicians how selfish, or greedy, or disrespecting-to-their-fans they are for actually >charging people< before letting them into their concerts. How actors don't care about their fans if they're not available to be hired by the fans to appear in those fans' movies. See how ridiculous it becomes when you apply this reasoning to anything other than drawn art?

The reason Patreon and auctions and everything else that enable artists to live off their work are so successful is that there are more people who DO understand that someone providing you with entertainment media IS worth something. That content creators are people, not media machines, and have their own wants and needs. People who appreciate both the content AND the human person producing it - those people thankfully outnumber the selfish and entitled generation of kids who A: will treat it as a wrong if anything they want exists but is not given to them on their terms, and B: honestly perceives it as the OTHER person being selfish for feeling like the WORK they do and the material they provide to others maybe does deserve some sort of payment in return.

That's the kicker here. People with this attitude are going to hurl negative judgment at someone just for deciding to stop working for free or dirt cheap when there's people lined up to pay them to do what they do, and they see it as the producers being selfish, and not the consumers who demand everything be made for nothing, or next to it. Oh, excuse me, there are those who don't mind the artist making money (to a point) so long as they are working for someone else. But Patreon and the like, artists being paid to do the work THEY want to do, is not a matter of artists wringing money out of people and then just doing as they please. It's artists merely >accepting< that there are people who >want< to see them do their own work and projects and not just always someone else's demands.

Nobody's taking anything from anyone. They're just starting to realize how little sense it makes to worry about people like you, who will just unwatch them anyway, when there's no shortage of others who WANT to help support them producing more of their own work on their own terms.

This is so perfectly put~

Also, for fuck's sake, in this case, he's only asking for THREE DOLLARS. Jesus.

If you feel there's something unfair going on with as little as 3 bucks between you and someone else's work, then I am sorry to inform you, that feeling is a result of >entitlement< on your part, NOT any wrongdoing on anyone else's part.

Seriously. The sense of "wah I deserve free art" entitlement in this thread is amazing.

"I miss the old commission system..."

Yeah, where artists on FA only charge like 10% of the prices that they really should be charging when you compare them to average professional rates in other art industries, and people throw tantrums if they start charging livable wages. Times are changing, artists are realizing they not only have to be able to afford rent, bills, and food, but also saving for emergency/retirement funds, and supporting family in some cases. If you don't like that artists are realizing "Hey I've been underselling and need to take better financial care of myself", then go draw your own art that you'd want to look at.

After all, what've you got to lose by doing it yourself? Making art costs nothing, right?

^ this

If only I could somehow five star this or like this or something. Spot on.

And it's amazing because, even when undervaluing myself because I'm not that great, people in real life give me this look when I tell them their big ass canvas painting is going to run them $200 ($50 for just the materials alone!), and taking on $50's more for all their "little" requests like another person and pets in their portrait.

When I talk them down to more reasonable sized things, it's still not low enough for them half the time. AND THIS IS IN REAL LIFE.

I can't imagine what you have to deal with in day to day stuff, since I really do think you've got great talent and a look about your art that's very raw. (Not to fanboy at you randomly, but yeah!)

Thanks for the feedback/support!

Part of the reason why art isn't taken very seriously as a trade (mainly in the US, Canada and Britain. I'm told it's very different in continental Europe)is because of artists themselves devaluing their work, thus feeding a consumer base that takes their craft for granted. Artists think "Gosh if I can JUST land an art job, any job, I'll have -made it-." or "If I can make JUST enough to live comfortably one month at a time, I'm good" which is completely ass-backwards thinking and feeds a sick culture that thinks illustrators WANT to be underpaid and overworked trash. No, you're more than just a drawing monkey - you're a human being with longterm needs. You need to be able to afford a healthy lifestyle and reasonable comfort, as well as saving up for emergency funds and retirement. Hell some of us want to have families one day.

All across the board, I think artists on FA, DA, Tumblr whatever, need to look at what they're charging for commissions currently, rethink them entirely, and then double those figures, at least. Even if your work isn't "quite there yet", charge higher anyways, take whatever commissions you can while improving yourself til you catch up with the market.

Yes, as an artist I too miss the old days of commission work. Framing, placing my work in galleries for viewing. Then, appreciaters of art, patrons if you will, would purchase said artistry for many dollars a time. Maybe even hundreds of bucks per piece! And take them home to stash them away to never see the light of day again much less have anyone else see them, safe in the knowledge that one day the artist will die and these pieces will double in price. The artist, who has now many, if lucky, thousands upon thousands of dollars, will return to their studio to toil away, producing hundreds more masterpieces that audiences will hopefully enjoy. The process repeats like clockwork, as it has since the industrial revolution.

Because prior to that shit you paid for all their living expenses and supplies and often had the artist visit and/or live with you. And you had to explain to your patrons why their red coats will coast them $500 in pigment, and $800 for that blue tile background in their portrait. Because paint ain't free, and not all pigments grow on trees, and no one invented a way to brilliant blue locally instead of Afghanistan or Egypt when you're in bumfuck nowhere francia.

I too would also like a return to the glamorous old ways that only a true artiste and parton would appreciate. When good art was hundreds if not thousands of dollars a piece, and rare. Not this trashy "instant art" made fast and loose, exact to someone's demands, and cheaper than ever (in the furry world) thanks to a race to the bottom for prices.

People don't know how much art really costs when you get out into the real world.

uhh look back to the first comment that you replied to. The first one in the thread that does have a lot to do with what I'm talking about haha

Sure there are some people who may use something like this as a simple cash grab, but those are the minority, and it seems unnecessary for that to be your first reaction to the topic of Patreon :) It's unfortunate to hear that you may have had some poor experiences with some artists on it in the past but I hope to at least give a little bit more positive experience with mine!

Nah. Abusing the system as in putting the overwhelming majority of stuff they used to post behind a paywall and charging for it. Which a lot of artists on FA are doing.

Oh, and artists aren't the only people who tend to be underpaid.

I'm sorry you're so used to free stuff that you can't see past your entitlement?? Sorry??

Even when assuming that actually was what you were trying to say, the point is still invalid because you fail to recognize the costs of time and effort needed to make said picture.

And of course you can make art with 'just' a pencil and paper. Just like you can make a movie in your parent's backyard with an old, borrowed, heldheld, camera and flimsy cardboard props. but obviously that just doesn't really cut it, does it?

It's not abuse of the system any more than a musician selling their music on Bandcamp to make some money is an abuse. It's their work, their decision whether or not to put it behind a paywall or free viewing.

Finally, someone who knows what he's talking about! A few people are more vocal about their dislike of the way artists tend to abuse Patreon at times, but the White Knights you mentioned are just as bad.

How many artists do you know that earn more than $40k? I'd love to meet some! I happen to date one and he sure doesn't pull that much in. Oh and he also uses Patreon and works outrageous hours.

If a great artist asking for someone to pay them (often minimal amounts) to have access to frequently vast libraries of content is problematic to you, then I sure hope you also pirate all of your music, movies and video games.

Better question is: "How many PEOPLE do I know that make 40k a year?" Answer: *laugh*

How many people do I know that often work 60 hours a week just to make ends meet, feet and hands covered in blisters and even then fall under 20k a year? Answer: A lot. It sucks, but that's the reality.

People of all jobs tend to have money issues, and I feel for them all as times are as hard as ever, however, nowhere did I say artists shouldn't use Patreon. Nor did I mention that I'm against Patreon. Also, nowhere did I say they all make amazing money and don't need support (though some do make decent money off it it, not as much as they COULD be making outside the fandom, but still, more than many people do).

It's pretty clear that I'm against the misuse of the site, and that those that use it correctly should be supported. Those that misuse the site and then go down the path of terrible business practices such as stiffing their fans, or hyping the demand for their art through the discontinuation of commissioned work should be a concern (the latter is their choice, but still a bit of a low blow if they plan on making money as an artist). I mean, it's not really against any sort of code or anything, nor is it wrong, but some artists not allowing users into their streams unless they're patrons? Not only is that completely counterproductive on the business side of things (look at all the potential customers you're losing because they don't know about this restriction), but you're forcing a fee on people to even view a stream? Just rubs me the wrong way I guess.

Not saying Suck McJones is going to do this at all (in fact he's been working on projects for a long time now), just stating that it happens, and that people have a right to dislike it without being told "FK U SCUM FOR NOT SUPPORTING ARTISTS" (no one in particular reference there, it just happens a lot), as is the new Furry Justice Warrior fad. That said, guy in first post showed his dislike in a dick way, but I can't say that people, even with a well thought out concern, don't get ganged up on simply for pointing out said concerns. See it all the time.

Disliking Patreon doesn't mean you don't support artists (apparently purchasing art from them, and the occasional donation isn't supporting). That's silly and not a logical connection at all. Though neither is comparing a dislike for Patreon with bootlegging.

TLDR: Your post only matches my own beliefs, sans the last bit... unless you support people abusing the system, which I don't believe anyone does. I could've just posted a generic "Your post has nothing to do with anything I mentioned", but kinda rude without explaining myself how it doesn't relate.

making art deserves more money than flipping burgers fyi, btw your essay sucks and you're a philistine

Did you seriously just throw everyone who can't make ends meet and aren't artists under the flag of "burger-flipper"? Considering the post was mostly pro-artist and only hating on those that abuse the system , your response seems randomly and unusually aggressive, almost like you didn't read the post at all (not that I blame you). Comparing burger-flipping wages with an artist's product worth? The hell?

But hey, I'm a philistine that doesn't support artists because I've used Patreon and still do to support my favourite artists and decided to share trends and observations I have noticed, whether they be good or bad with others. Some people abuse the system, some people (myself not included) dislike the site because of it. Deal with it. Could it have been done in a better place than a Patreon promoting journal? Yes, but what's happened has happened.

Sorry, but it's apparently a shocker that I do support Patreon in general and support SuckMcJones endeavors in using it. I don't know where the assumption that I hate it and don't use it even came from. Criticizing is bad I guess. I'm not the guy saying "GOTTA UNWATCH HIM FOR USING PATREON"

"Yeah, fuck these people and their having their opinions about a site that many artists heavily abuse by getting money for just having a well-known name, and then stop taking commissions period and only do personal work, because their patreon nets.them more than the average person makes. You tell them!"


This is your first contribution to this journal, and it was at the defense of a very nasty and rude comment. To say that it's not an accusation towards SMJ is dishonest, because if it wasn't then it would not have been in this journal to begin with. To say that you then are 'pro artist' is equally dishonest. In the rest of your comments you only shift sands away from your initial words - your idea of 'abusing' the system is preposterous and is an attempt at disguising your contempt for artists.

This is what you need to Keep in Mind: Artists in this community never owed you anything. They're not lazy because they're excluding you as a potential viewer. Why this is a difficult concept for some in this community to wrap their head around is beyond me.

You're so transparently false, it's kinda disgusting.

Wow, you're an idiot.

lol at how you backtracked from "genetic retard" and deleted your prev comment. can't stand by your offensive expletives?

Nah. Your genes probably have nothing to do with you not taking the time to thoroughly read the guy's words.

Shut the fuck up. You don't like the site, don't use it. Your opinion has no merit on the actions of other people or their means of income. I spent all damn day today in Chicago rallying for a $15/hr minimum wage, not because such an increase would benefit me (it wouldn't as I make more than that) but because I believe in raising people up. You seem to believe in tearing people down. Who the fuck are you to hold up working 60 hours a week for $20k a year as an aspiration? Also that $6.41/hr for your hypothetical worker is illegal.

This isn't about you, so shut up. You're making it about you because of some weird entitlement that you believe artists owe it to you too be open for public commission (news flash- they don't owe you shit).

He does not encourage anyone to 'aspire' for a 60 hour job per week for $20k a year. No sane human would do that. He also doesn't mention tearing people down. He merely said that a lot of people in general tend to misuse Patreon and sometimes abuse the system.

And you, your typical Furry White Knight, are telling him to shut the fuck up when it's obvious you didn't grasp an ounce of what he was trying to say?

Typical White Knight. Why don't you shut the fuck up instead and understand that just because someone expresses a negative opinion doesn't automatically make him a heretic? Oh, and while you're at it, you should try a few reading comprehension exercises, too.

hey fellow sock puppet account being used for the soul reason of talking shit to people! It sure is fun sitting here behind anonymity calling people white knights and retards and other dumb, pointless insults so that we feel better about ourselves about having shitty opinions. Man, these dirty greedy artists, am i right? Haha! We're so clever. You're doing a stand up job with your account by the way! Really showing all these dumb idiots what for! Nice one! Hey, want to go find someone else online and call them faggots and to kill themselves because they draw a fetish you don't like? That's a real riot too!

This isn't even a sock puppet account. Well, at least you failed early on. Good day, Sir.

Have you ever even used the site? So many people are throwing hystrionics over a site being "abused" and don't even have an account. I'm a happy member and patron to 16 amazing artists. You don't get to dictate how a website is used or how it should be used by others, especially if you like most of the whiners and tantrum throwers have not even used it. It would be like me complaining about the French horn and telling people it's abused by being played in bands and it's awful even though I have no experience with it outside of knee jerk reaction. Grow the fuck up, artists are people not vending machines that exist to cater to your whims. So yes, shut the fuck up.

Nice salt account to defend yourself, very cute. At least I have the balls to say what I mean and mean what I say under my own name in this fandom instead of hiding.

Oh yes, because I've been using this account strictly to post comments like this since July 22, 2006. I cannot even begin to imagine how many skeletons I must be hiding in my closet! I'm such a bad man! </sarcasm>

You are an idiot. Jumping to conclusions and berating everyone who doesn't agree with you. After all, you were very quick to come to the conclusion that I've had a 'salt' account for more than 10 years.

Typical Furry White Knight in action.

"Shut the fuck up. You don't like the site, don't use it."

I really wish all these whiners about Patreon would just take these two sentences to heart.

Shut the fuck up. If you don't like reading an opinion that doesn't coincide with yours, don't read the comment.

I really wish all these whiners about whiners would just take these two sentences to heart.

I'm sorry I've angered you, friend.

Just using some of your own words. Friend.

After all, you are whining about whiners. ;D

God, I am sick of the "whining about whining" excuse.

There are people who are objecting - frequently, and with a good deal of general disrespect - about something which does not harm them, and is of significant benefit to the people actually working and producing something. People who are simply consumers whining that what they want to consume is becoming less available for free or impulse-buy prices because producers are waking up to the actual value of their work, as dictated by the growing number of consumers who >want< to pay for it to see the producers more able to produce and grow, etc.

Those whiners do have a significant effect on slowing that progress of producers becoming more self-sufficient and actually living off of their work. Too many artists are afraid of inviting these kinds of 'Oh, you're a greedy selfish person who thinks your shit is worth gold bricks, guess I'll unwatch you' comments, and will choose to continue struggling more than they need to be, rather than take the chance of having people judge them this way.

So when other "whiners" start objecting to the first group of "whiners," it's not an equivalent situation. There are "whiners" whining about shit that benefits people and takes nothing away from them (except the abundance of free stuff) and their whining has a direct inhibiting effect on people - then there are "whiners" who object to the unjustified complaints of the first, as well as the negative and detrimental impact their whining has.

There's an enormous difference between, for example, someone "whining" about the gays being allowed to marry, and someone "whining" about those whiners and the effect their bullshit has.

Both examples of "whining" are trying to get the thing they're whining about to stop. But one is a valid objection to something unjustified and detrimental, and the other is not.

Onta and hardblush artists aside please link me ONE furry patreon artist whose patreon is netting them more than the average person makes, i DARE you

Supporting this Patreon so you never have to accept commissions from fuckboys ever again~!

A+ best comment, and good point lmao

if only there was some way to fav comments XD

I can't believe people are complaining about the option of paying 3usd a month to support you. I hope you get a million from this.

There's a Paxton Fettel comment I'm trying to remember here, I wonder what it was again..

I'll be happy to advertise you tomorrow during prime hours to make sure more peeps get sent your way. Not that you need it, your work speaks for itself. But I'll be happy to help in any way I can until I start contributing to your patreon. Having worked as a professional artist for going on 6 years now, facing people who think that art costs nothing is far more permeated throughout the industry than it should be. I'm glad you're starting a patreon, and hopefully there will be more people that feel similarly to how I do about your work.

It makes me so angry that people refer to Patreon as begging for money
Like can't even articulate how much that upsets me

As Brom said, supporting you so hopefully you don't have to deal with this shit
Much love, keep being incredible

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAH DESTROY HIM

I'm getting such palpable satisfaction out of how many people chewed into this pleb.

ON TOPIC! I'm glad to see you setting yourself up for success! I need to get in on this myself but my output is severely limited so it'd serve no purpose in the end.

Just because you admitted you were wrong and stupid doesn't dismiss you from having made the comments to begin with. Find it disgusting all you like, but they're only doing it because of the disgusting comments to begin with.

That's fair enough, and I understand that; you and everybody else have every right to be angry.
That disgusting comment was also unnecessary of me to say and to stop any further crap coming from me, I'm just going to stop.
Sorry for everything, everyone.

Eh, I didn't find the comment disgusting; just honest. With Patreon that are artists that use their FA pages more for YCH auctions and Patreon advertisements simply because they net them far far more cash than a commission will. Of course commissioned work tends to be what makes an artist successful in this fandom anyway and Patreon might change all that but time will tell.

But yeah I think a public announcement of you unfollowing the artist was unnecessary. It's not really going to stop an artist from going forward with a plan to make more money; if that were the case YCH auctions would be long dead by now. ;) Besides, it's a good thing. The more artists that make much, much more money the more artists there will be that can undercut them with lower prices and better overall deals. That's the basics of a free market since it promotes competition. In a sense everyone wins.

But as a future reminder just unfollow people you no longer wish to follow for whatever reason. There's no need to make it publicly known. Saves on the drama.

I normally do what you said, but this time I didn't which is why I admit it was a mistake and that I was a douche for doing so

Chalk it up to a knee jerk reaction then. Funny thing is it's really not all that big of a deal. That's what I find amusing about all of these comments on the matter. This is all just business but people are making it a personal matter. I bet if you were able to scour the personal lives of the people that they too have complained about a business practice or two in their lifetimes, especially on things like gas prices, hotel costs, dealer space costs, groceries... well... you get the idea. Artists are no exception to this basic rule in a free market.

Patreon is just the latest fad. It'll wind down like every other fad and money making scheme does. Remember when icon art was all the rage back in the day? Adopts had their hayday much like today's YCH auctions. While it lasts the artist can make some cash. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a fan of this "pay me to see my stuff" thing Pateron tends to be about. My only real problem with Patreon is that it's driven artists toward charging for things like tutorials (decent free ones are getting much harder to find) and, cutting out the commission option entirely and using FA as adspace to post up censored work much like the front page of a pay site does to entice you to join. I'm sure it won't be long until a policy on the site is written to restrict the practice.

Anyway, try not to let the "bashing" get to ya. You made a knee jerk reaction posting stating a personal opinion regarding unfollowing this artist. At the end of the day it's no big deal except to those that have made it into one. ;)

It doesn't bother me too much, it was just that post on Tumblr and Twitter that was going around. Someone screenshotted two of the comments I had made (they didn't screenshot the comments where I was trying to justify myself) and a bunch of people were just commenting on it and sharing it saying things like "I hate pricks like this" and such, when they don't even know me. I'm not normally like that :/
But yeah, thanks for being kind about it and giving the advice, I'm pretty much over it now but the fact that someone went so low as to make a post about me, spreading stuff around got me rather down. I just realised that the person who did that is worse than me hehe ^^