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Is there enough fursuit in fursuit dance comps?
10 years ago
In this authors humble opinion.....
Short answer no, long answer IT'S COMPLICATED!
If you are looking for a simple answer, you are in the wrong place. This will continue to be a discussion long after I post this. Keep it civil, stay calm, or I will keep this civil for you.
I got into a bit of a twitter scuffle... the most dreadfully annoying place to have a conversation on the planet. I think it would be more productive to argue in Morse code. In 140 characters or less, everything is inferred as an attack, or a big internet hug (e-hug, awww). I submit a grey issue beyond twitter's capacity to explicate!
I saw a picture of a dancer wearing a head, and some hand paws, I asked to use the picture.. I did not get permission to use it. Completely unrelated, if you wander over to my twitter I did happen to retweet some interesting tweets.
I could have just lied, and said I was using it for research.. Kinda creepy, yet presumably more effective than the truth. I told the truth and as you will read below, this is NOT negative. If anything, I am trying my hardest to look at the issue as objectively as possible. Again, not an E-hug(aww, E-hug) or an attack, but a place twitter dare not venture. As for the people in question. Their loss, water under the bridge. I am sure I will share a drink at a con with these individuals once we get past 140 characters. Twitter sucks..
They did brig up some points that I wanted to address, however.
Those arguments are.
-Not everyone has enough money for a fullsuit.
This is a hard one for me, as,the very reason I started making my own suits was that I did not have enough money to buy one. To convince me is going to be an uphill battle when you consider that aspect.
Furthermore, I remember very distinctly offering part or parts of my costume be cut off my own suit for other dancers. I think if you ask
zoomba he will confirm that I offered to cut off MY OWN [fursuit] HANDS when he misplaced his. 
omgsparky also performed in Spook, my ringtail costume when she needed a suit.. I mean, the list does go on.
Still, let's ignore all of that, and move on to why that argument fundamentally does not work.
Could you enter a skateboard competition if you couldn't afford a skateboard? No....
Can you enter the Indy 500 without an Indy car? No...
Can you enter your into any competition without the requisite means to do so? No.
Cost prohibition is not a factor on what is really fair when everyone else is asked to pay for their own means as well. Meaning, if I need a fursuit to compete, then why wouldn't you?
I know it sucks... I had to learn to sew, get burnt, stabbed, cut, and inhale enough fur fibers to share the respiratory problems of a Victorian era asbestos factory worker.
I know first hand that being too poor to participate does not mean I can participate. It's not a logical argument, and I know it first hand.
TL;DR version: Sucks, yes. Valid argument, no.
Another argument.
-I can kick really high, on one foot into a split, that's talent..
Wow, um.... okay.. First, we have to ignore the fact that one is expecting the world to be relegated to a lesser argument because that individual can kick well..
Even if it did.. Kinda my point, you didn't do it in fullsuit..
I have competed is these competitions for now, almost a decade. I actually was at the very first FWA comp.. so, I have seen my fair share of dancer bravado. Near pro dancers that make cocky remarks like the example above are followed by an exasperated dancer that forgot 90% of their routine, and is blaming everything from the sound guy, to audience response. I often ask, "you didn't practice in suit, did you?"
Much love to the new kids on the bloc.. We all enjoy a little bit of machismo behind the scenes, but it does not mean anything on stage. If there is one thing that you will learn is that dancing in suit is a little [very] different. Talent level in and out of suit are different things, removing most of the suit does not alter that.
TL;DR Cool Bra', now do it in BASIC.
Now, this is where it gets tricky.
What is a fursuit dance comp, anyway?
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the video involved in this case is not that."
-Supreme court Justice Stewart weighs in on the matter.
Competitions have rules. You accept this when you enter the competition. If the rules are unfair, you simply do not enter. It's really quite simple. As competitions are defined by these rules, the definition can be at least somewhat static.
When I hear the words "fursuit dance competition", I infer that there is an additional aspect to differentiate this from other dance competitions. If one of the rules is that you have to be wearing a fursuit, then how a fursuit is defined needs some clarification. If you feel you can leave this blank, then it's not much of a slippery slope to painted hands, and fox paper masks.
This brings us to some very important questions.
Is there a level of difficulty inherent in performing in costume above that of normal clothing? If so, how much regular clothing should be allowed?
I submit that the added constraints of performing in a fursuit is one of the defining aspects of fursuit dance competitions. The trend to remove more and more of the costuming aspect is to remove the very thing that makes it special.
What I have not said is that finding clever, and new ways to make costumes better for dancing should be limited. Quite the opposite. Pushing the limitations of both dancers talent, and costume design go hand in hand.
In the end what I am saying is, we need to be careful not to lose sight of what makes this so unique. When we allow such trends to continue unchecked, we need to ask if we are straying too much. Ultimately, that has nothing to do with me, I am a grumpy old lemur (Who wants an e-hug?) It's really for you to decide.
TL;DR Do you, but tread carefully.
P.S. Seeing as this opened a can of worms, I will be submitting further propaganda on the subject. This has become part 1.
Short answer no, long answer IT'S COMPLICATED!
If you are looking for a simple answer, you are in the wrong place. This will continue to be a discussion long after I post this. Keep it civil, stay calm, or I will keep this civil for you.
I got into a bit of a twitter scuffle... the most dreadfully annoying place to have a conversation on the planet. I think it would be more productive to argue in Morse code. In 140 characters or less, everything is inferred as an attack, or a big internet hug (e-hug, awww). I submit a grey issue beyond twitter's capacity to explicate!
I saw a picture of a dancer wearing a head, and some hand paws, I asked to use the picture.. I did not get permission to use it. Completely unrelated, if you wander over to my twitter I did happen to retweet some interesting tweets.
I could have just lied, and said I was using it for research.. Kinda creepy, yet presumably more effective than the truth. I told the truth and as you will read below, this is NOT negative. If anything, I am trying my hardest to look at the issue as objectively as possible. Again, not an E-hug(aww, E-hug) or an attack, but a place twitter dare not venture. As for the people in question. Their loss, water under the bridge. I am sure I will share a drink at a con with these individuals once we get past 140 characters. Twitter sucks..
They did brig up some points that I wanted to address, however.
Those arguments are.
-Not everyone has enough money for a fullsuit.
This is a hard one for me, as,the very reason I started making my own suits was that I did not have enough money to buy one. To convince me is going to be an uphill battle when you consider that aspect.
Furthermore, I remember very distinctly offering part or parts of my costume be cut off my own suit for other dancers. I think if you ask
zoomba he will confirm that I offered to cut off MY OWN [fursuit] HANDS when he misplaced his. 
omgsparky also performed in Spook, my ringtail costume when she needed a suit.. I mean, the list does go on. Still, let's ignore all of that, and move on to why that argument fundamentally does not work.
Could you enter a skateboard competition if you couldn't afford a skateboard? No....
Can you enter the Indy 500 without an Indy car? No...
Can you enter your into any competition without the requisite means to do so? No.
Cost prohibition is not a factor on what is really fair when everyone else is asked to pay for their own means as well. Meaning, if I need a fursuit to compete, then why wouldn't you?
I know it sucks... I had to learn to sew, get burnt, stabbed, cut, and inhale enough fur fibers to share the respiratory problems of a Victorian era asbestos factory worker.
I know first hand that being too poor to participate does not mean I can participate. It's not a logical argument, and I know it first hand.
TL;DR version: Sucks, yes. Valid argument, no.
Another argument.
-I can kick really high, on one foot into a split, that's talent..
Wow, um.... okay.. First, we have to ignore the fact that one is expecting the world to be relegated to a lesser argument because that individual can kick well..
Even if it did.. Kinda my point, you didn't do it in fullsuit..
I have competed is these competitions for now, almost a decade. I actually was at the very first FWA comp.. so, I have seen my fair share of dancer bravado. Near pro dancers that make cocky remarks like the example above are followed by an exasperated dancer that forgot 90% of their routine, and is blaming everything from the sound guy, to audience response. I often ask, "you didn't practice in suit, did you?"
Much love to the new kids on the bloc.. We all enjoy a little bit of machismo behind the scenes, but it does not mean anything on stage. If there is one thing that you will learn is that dancing in suit is a little [very] different. Talent level in and out of suit are different things, removing most of the suit does not alter that.
TL;DR Cool Bra', now do it in BASIC.
Now, this is where it gets tricky.
What is a fursuit dance comp, anyway?
"I shall not today attempt further to define the kinds of material I understand to be embraced within that shorthand description, and perhaps I could never succeed in intelligibly doing so. But I know it when I see it, and the video involved in this case is not that."
-Supreme court Justice Stewart weighs in on the matter.
Competitions have rules. You accept this when you enter the competition. If the rules are unfair, you simply do not enter. It's really quite simple. As competitions are defined by these rules, the definition can be at least somewhat static.
When I hear the words "fursuit dance competition", I infer that there is an additional aspect to differentiate this from other dance competitions. If one of the rules is that you have to be wearing a fursuit, then how a fursuit is defined needs some clarification. If you feel you can leave this blank, then it's not much of a slippery slope to painted hands, and fox paper masks.
This brings us to some very important questions.
Is there a level of difficulty inherent in performing in costume above that of normal clothing? If so, how much regular clothing should be allowed?
I submit that the added constraints of performing in a fursuit is one of the defining aspects of fursuit dance competitions. The trend to remove more and more of the costuming aspect is to remove the very thing that makes it special.
What I have not said is that finding clever, and new ways to make costumes better for dancing should be limited. Quite the opposite. Pushing the limitations of both dancers talent, and costume design go hand in hand.
In the end what I am saying is, we need to be careful not to lose sight of what makes this so unique. When we allow such trends to continue unchecked, we need to ask if we are straying too much. Ultimately, that has nothing to do with me, I am a grumpy old lemur (Who wants an e-hug?) It's really for you to decide.
TL;DR Do you, but tread carefully.
P.S. Seeing as this opened a can of worms, I will be submitting further propaganda on the subject. This has become part 1.
Especially body paddings and big feetpaws make a huge difference for the difficulty level of dancing.
I mean it's obvious that the more foam and fur you pile on someone, plus the difficulty of not seeing or breathing well is going to make the competition harder, and it wouldn't be fair to pit people against others that don't have the same handicaps.
Don't some cons give extra points for performers in full suits rather than partials? I remember reading this somewhere
Under this definition, a fursuit is a fursuit if it has a minimum of head and hands, though I define partial as heads, hands, feet and tail, and a fullsuit is that + a body. So, since a fursuit dance competition is classed as fursuit and not fullsuit, I believe you should be allowed to enter if you have a minimum of a head and handpaws, if you have no skin showing :)
Honestly their should be something about done about this!
Good of you to point out a flaw in the competition.
Ps. Are you a writer? Because you should be! You have a way of wording things!
pps. I do want an e-hug!
Really at least split it into two competitions, fullsuit and partial.
I don't go to the fursuitdance comps to see regular people dancing or people with just accessories and a head. I go to see the fursuits! I think it takes a lot more to be able to bust the moves and keep breathing in a fullsuit vs a partial.
So my first question to the people who drug me to the competition was this: "Shouldn't the winner of the fursuit dance competition actually be someone wearing a fursuit?"
If dance comps are really that popular, then they should have different categories, or maybe totally different competitions?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCI367Qp8uo
I kind of like how... what was it... MFF did it? Where they had a fursuit category and a non-fursuit category. But the idea of making it not a fursuit competition makes it a little more "fair", I guess, to dancers who don't have a suit.
Just my opinion though, since I believe have a partial with extra range of motion/mobility is a HUGE advantage.
The comp is there for my entertainment, not to showcase skills or measure dicks. If it's boring or ugly even if it's skilled or hard dancing, I give it zero points! :3 One rule: Amuse me, and I shall be more amused if it's fluffy.
Besides, the dance comps are supposed to be about your ability to perform while wearing a costume that hinders eyesight and movement, not about the costume itself. The costume and character you create while wearing is best left to other events like masquerade or similar.
Covering only head/arms/hands/feet while wearing normal clothes = Partial suit
Simple as that.
As far as loaning goes, anyone's allowed to do it, so idk why that would need to be a factor.
Personally, I think dance comps should be separated into two different levels of competition. One for fullsuits, one for partials, crown a winner for each one and don't do a Best In Show/Final Showdown between the two of them. We could also get into other things like separating styles of dances (Because a hip hop dance will obviously outshine a ballet in today's settings) but that would make things unnecessarily complicated. Keeping a separation down to just style of fursuit sounds fair to me. There's definitely an advantage to moving in your regular clothes as opposed to a full suit, so it's not fair to the fullsuiters who might not be able to shine brightest while performing because of costume limitations. This is a debate I've seen pop up every time a big con goes by, and I think dance organizers need to seriously consider splitting competitions to make it more fair. Outliers like people who wear a shirt, but have full legs with their head and paws aren't common, and should be left up to the judges best judgement on which competition to place them in, as well as taking suggestion from the performer themselves.
It would solve that dilemma
That being said, just because partial suiters have more mobility doesn't mean they necessarily do better. I mean, look at AC 2014. Tayerr is probably one of the most bulky and cumbersome suits I've ever seen, and yet Tayerr got 1st place. Or look at Furpocalypse 2014. All three of the finalists were full suiters.
At least my opinion is that at least you should have head, paws, tail and feet (though depending on species, tails aren't always..present). The most important parts are the head because it reduces vision and causes a great deal of heat, and feet, because it might cause less balance, you need to place your footing differently and so on. Seeing partials wearing normal shoes kind of feel like cheating.
If people want to have a competition where everything goes, why don't someone create that event?
You may have an extraordinary dancer with a partial that was bought with the intention of having better movement and convenience while also having a equally extraordinary dancer in a full suit that was bought with the intention of having more of a challenge and making their abilities more impressive. I feel as though the mixture of suit types is visually appealing and shows off another touch of variety in the fandom. Maybe the stopping point when it comes to keeping partials in the same competition should be arm sleeves, leg sleeves, both hand and feet paws, and a head? All human parts covered.
I also feel there should be... Idk a guide or tutorial for dancer furs to secure their feetpaws properly. if there is one i sure haven't seen it. :C
its one thing to lose a prop like a hat, but a whole 'nother thing to pop your feet off. It ruins the illusion.
i definitely feel there should be no human skin showing.
Its this grey line and no clear Rules that allowed my friend Rofl to win the Rainfurrest 2014 dance competition with just body paint and a masquerade mask. Her dancing was incredible. and It deserved to place, but it wasn't a fursuit.
the outrage over it all at the end was hard to watch;;
I've always thought that at least a fursuit head should be required to compete, otherwise you have the advantage over others wearing theirs. Partial, fullsuit, whatever. The head does it for me.
I was on a fursuit dance contest judge's panel once, and wow. The amount of skill it takes to perform effectively with your vision and movement restricted just blew me away. As I recall, our winner was wearing a partial. I can't remember if he had feetpaws, or shoes.
end of rant
I'd like it to be split up into different categories, however. Specifically; Straight-legged and Padded legs, with the "Head, hands, tail and feet" rule still in place. Yes, full suits are a little hotter, but honestly wearing a partial with a hoodie and jeans is about just as hot in my experience. You get about the same restriction in a fullsuit sans padding as you do in regular clothing. It's the suits that have padded legs that have the most restriction, and this should be taken into account, whether those suits have an upper body or not.
I think an animal head/mask defines a fursuit. If you only have a head, but make an effort to cover your skin (jacket, gloves, jeans, boots), then to me its a fursuit. While fullsuits or complete partials (head, handpaws, feetpaws, and a tail) are more visually appealing, if the dancer in the fursuit at least is making an effort too look like an anthropomorphic dancing animal, then its just fine.
That being said, a head while wearing a t-shirt and shorts with a ton of skin exposed? No, that shouldn't qualify in a dance competition.
Sort of how seeing the Japanese dancerfur Kyowe do his hand tricks and flips is so amazing because we know how bad his traction is. It's just waay less impressive without the hindrances, even humdrum when you see it at the dance at night.
Just my 2 cents.
Mind you I'm more referring to people who want to enter with just a paper mask and paint, like the girl mentioned above (who is a fabulous dancer, btw. Just shouldn't have been in a fursuit competitions since she had full vision, full ventilation, full dexterity and skin showing. Even unpainted sections like her neck.) Partials that are hands, feet, and head are good enough for me, personally. Those are the major inhibitors (besides padding, of course.)
Can you enter a salsa dance competition in street clothes? A bellydance competition? No. You have to be outfitted properly.
I'm also part if the "couldn't afford it, so I made my own" group. Were they terrible at first? Yes, but that's where you learn. I always internally groan when I see fursuit dancers in normal shoes. It absolutely feels like cheating to me as I've had to change up entire choreographies just because I didn't try them in my fursuit feet first and they didn't work once I had them on. The challenge is so much higher and that's what makes the fursuit dance competitions what they are. If you can't afford feet? Save up and practice your dancing for when you can.
However, I do see the aspects of potentially having a separate section for partials in the comp. It would allow both groups to have a chance to compete while not giving those who a) can't afford a fullsuit and b) those who are in a heavily padded suit any sort of step or handicap over the other. It would be more fair in my honest opinion.
I'd love to compete, but I don't plan to do so until I have a fullsuit. I'm poor as shit too, so I get the desire without having the means.But the big point here is that if you can't afford a luxury item, that's not anyone else's issue. It might seem unfair, but if just makes more sense that a fursuit dance comp would require a full fursuit. *shrugs*
I wonder though what you think of fursuiters who don't feel comfortable or capable when dancing in partial bra being comfortable and more capable in full suit?
What really makes me cringe is seeing skin on the partial suit dancers. Ruins everything.
If partials weren't allowed, I would never have gotten a chance to perform at this years comp at FWA, the first one I've actually participated in. To me that was a great send off to my 1.0 partial, and I'm excited to audition and hopefully compete with my full!