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Just a little more religious debate
10 years ago
This guy I actually enjoy talking to. Came across an Atheist vs Christian video, debating about reasoning, logic and perception.
I sympathize with the atheist. Just a little bit. He did pick on a little kid who wasn't experienced enough and when a more experienced man of faith got into it he lost his stuff. he got frustrated with the dude's tactics as fallacious as they are and if he was thinking right could have batted the man of faith down for all the fallacies he was spewing. Anyway..
Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuO0me-pCwc
Youtube user 1:
"...it was not the atheist that stated "Logic does't exist".......then the creationist restated what the atheist said and the atheist quickly changed (angrily) to "Yes, that's what I said, logic doesn't PHYSICALLY exist, I've said it a dozen times now" (he added the physically part the 2nd time he said it). This part of the debate wasn't all that important besides the fact that the atheist was getting tied in knots. What was ridiculous was the "Green Monkeys On Jupiter" point. He took a totally ridiculous comparison and related it to God. These clowns would rather believe in green monkeys than God, that is for sure. It is unfortunate."
Youtuber 2 to Youtuber 1 :
"Wrong. You need to understand the context. Before they say that, the evangelical professor was asking if the Atheist could hand him a 1, which is an immaterial concept. So in context, he then says logic doesn't exist and clarify it by saying it doesn't exist, physically.
The one with the green monkeys in the core of Jupiter is justifiable. He's bringing the identical principle of the concept to the table, it matters not if the subject were green monkeys or giant mice. The point is the same. If you cannot disprove that claim, then it must exist, which is the logic behind your belief. What constitutes as a justifiable comparison to God? The premise doesn't matter, as long as the conclusion remain the same. Whether it is an apple or a fly, as long as the reasoning is the same then who cares what he compare God with?"
Me to YT1:
"1. You totally missed the point of the "green monkeys." You're discrediting yourself on intelligence.
2. I noticed you never replied to my post..."
YT1 to Me:
"1. I did not "miss the point" of the "green monkeys".........I got it entirely. This idiot is basically saying that claiming there are "green monkeys on Jupiter" is the same concept as saying there is a God. It is the type of argument these types use ALOT to deceive people. The debate is on whether there is a God or not. Not whether there are green monkeys on Jupiter. Green Monkeys would be physical beings/animals. In which case we would then argue on whether those monkeys came to be by evolution or a God. God is a spiritual being, or a force. Many for some reason tend to think of him as simply a man. While he came to earth as a man to act as the final ultimate sacrifice for our sins, God is much more. No one created God. The law of Cause/Effect does not apply to him (in fact there is scripture in the bible that addresses this). He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end. This is nothing more than trying (and failing) to reduce the reality of God to comparison with Green Monkeys, Unicorns, Bigfoot, or Santa Claus. It's the same blasphemous argument that has been used for ages with these people. They use it to try to throw others with low IQ off topic. 2. What post? I've replied to several of your posts so I am sorry if I missed one. Repost and i'll be glad to answer...."
Me to YT1:
You can just scroll up a bit to find the post. It's right before the previous post. it's 144 lines.
1. Your comment suggests otherwise, and it looks like you've missed the point again. You lack in understanding. He is not making a comparison between green monkeys and God or the physical manifestation of the two. He's making a comparison on what we assume to be real based on lack of evidence. Now I see why Christians can't debate intelligently. It's not that they're being willingly ignorant. You're all misunderstanding points being made. You're thinking one thing, when the person you debate with means something else entirely. In your head you're warping the argument that makes sense to you.
2. "In which case we would then argue on whether those monkeys came to be by evolution or a God"
This is something interesting you instigated. I don't know why, but this made me think of the authenticity of Jesus being the Son of God. By title, we're all children of God, but how do you prove Jesus is legit? How do we explain "put no man before me," yet we worship a man alleged to be God himself?
"Unicorns, Bigfoot, or Santa Claus."
And i'm going to throw in "boogy man."
Santa Clause and the Boogy man... A funny comparison of God and the devil. If we created such a thing to try to keep children in line, who's to say God and the devil wasn't fabricated to keep adults in line? Remember in the part of the video "how, without God, do we distinguish right from wrong?"
a. It's troubling that one would need the Bible to tell them right from wrong because a lot of wrong can be done via biblical texts.
b. I worry that a person would need to rely on that to keep themselves in check and is actually one of the reasons why I stopped going to church. How do I know how honest these people are? I see some posts online made by Christians that are very deplorable. Christian forums, i've seen talks about homosexuals and how some wished for the death of them. These posters could be anyone, using an alias online, hiding their identity and speaking their true thoughts freely. Could be at least one person i go to church with. It's scary.
c. What if I punched that guy who asked that question in the face? Would he like it? Would he think that was wrong of me to do? How does he know that? Observance! We know the difference between right and wrong through observance. Through mistakes made and we learn from them. I'm sure there's a reason why we don't want nuclear warfare anymore and take it very, VERY seriously. Which also gives me a bit of worry with that deal with Iran. I mean i'm all about making good relations with ME countries and such, but I don't necessarily trust them yet. This is moving too far too fast, but I digress.
Throw others with low IQ off topic, hmm? Last I checked, people who attend church aren't exactly prestigious. Some would say religious folk would take advantage of low IQ people and manipulate them as well. Think about it, manipulation starts at birth. If you're born into a Bible thumping Christian family, that's where the brain wash and manipulating perception begins. It's not just the low IQ churches seek to manipulate, it's the no IQ children who haven't even developed a thought of their own that's being manipulated from day 1. Constantly planting all these things inside their head, skewing their perception of the world and teaching them to be narrow and closed-minded.
To you it would be justifiable, for the end justifies the means. For others, they fear that kind of crap. I'm not sure how religious folk would do today, with our advanced technology and such, but on multiple occasions have Christians still shown me that they can still be irrational and throw out logic and reasoning. This is, to me, reason to give me pause and not want religion to rule the mind of humankind. Looking at history Christians have done some horrible stuff, justifiable only to them. Joan of arc for example. Make me want to cry on that story. Burned at the steak for being a heretic. Why? for simply wearing men's clothing, allegedly to protect herself from guards who would try to rape her. She was under review and made a deal to wear women's clothing during her detainment but after a few days or so the guards stopped giving her women's clothing and the declared her a heretic. A woman who claimed she was called upon by God to fight in the war and turned the tide, and that's the reward that was given to her, because religion had a part in their government and law back then.
People may claim Christians are the most peaceful of religions (which I don't think is true) and the world is getting worse without it involved in government, schools, work places, etc etc. I think of it this way. IMO, I think it's western civilization that's actually keeping Christians civil. I mean, if Westboro Baptists had played a crucial role in government and laws and such, that would be a fucking mess.
Yeah the world is getting worse, differing in opinion, however slightly. Things seem to be getting worse because of parenting. Back then, women used to be a stay at home Mom, looking after the children, giving them what they need, nurturing them, teaching them and such while the father provided. These days both parents NEED to work and don't have time to bring up the child themselves. Value get neglected as the parents are always busy and tired because of workforce demand, erratic schedules and such. So because they don't get the love they need, because they aren't being taught proper morals and are going through development without a proper figure in their life. They go out and do more immoral things. Like try to have a family themselves to make up for the lack of whatever they weren't getting before. I see it a lot, in my community and church people included. Kids going out and having kids. Sometimes not even out of High school yet. Of course this leads to drop outs and some keep breeding without any job. It's the lack of parenting that's making society go downhill and it'll keep getting worse with each generation. You know how I came to this conclusion? I observed. Didn't need a book to tell me this. Though I will admit, the Bible does have family values that if we're still adhered to today, it wouldn't be so bad. So yes, the lack of religious belief has possibly played a factor in he downhill slope society has been on.
IMO if you're both working parents, you should not have a family. If you're poor and uneducated, you should not have a family. If you're still dependent on your parents (or any kind of assistance), dependent people should not have dependents. What people lack today, is fucking common sense. I know it's harsh, but if you want to fix society, you need to get to the root of the problem. You need to stop blaming it on the lack of a mythical book and fix the actual problem, yourselves first. Blaming it on the lack of the Bible is diverting from the problem.
I sympathize with the atheist. Just a little bit. He did pick on a little kid who wasn't experienced enough and when a more experienced man of faith got into it he lost his stuff. he got frustrated with the dude's tactics as fallacious as they are and if he was thinking right could have batted the man of faith down for all the fallacies he was spewing. Anyway..
Video - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SuO0me-pCwc
Youtube user 1:
"...it was not the atheist that stated "Logic does't exist".......then the creationist restated what the atheist said and the atheist quickly changed (angrily) to "Yes, that's what I said, logic doesn't PHYSICALLY exist, I've said it a dozen times now" (he added the physically part the 2nd time he said it). This part of the debate wasn't all that important besides the fact that the atheist was getting tied in knots. What was ridiculous was the "Green Monkeys On Jupiter" point. He took a totally ridiculous comparison and related it to God. These clowns would rather believe in green monkeys than God, that is for sure. It is unfortunate."
Youtuber 2 to Youtuber 1 :
"Wrong. You need to understand the context. Before they say that, the evangelical professor was asking if the Atheist could hand him a 1, which is an immaterial concept. So in context, he then says logic doesn't exist and clarify it by saying it doesn't exist, physically.
The one with the green monkeys in the core of Jupiter is justifiable. He's bringing the identical principle of the concept to the table, it matters not if the subject were green monkeys or giant mice. The point is the same. If you cannot disprove that claim, then it must exist, which is the logic behind your belief. What constitutes as a justifiable comparison to God? The premise doesn't matter, as long as the conclusion remain the same. Whether it is an apple or a fly, as long as the reasoning is the same then who cares what he compare God with?"
Me to YT1:
"1. You totally missed the point of the "green monkeys." You're discrediting yourself on intelligence.
2. I noticed you never replied to my post..."
YT1 to Me:
"1. I did not "miss the point" of the "green monkeys".........I got it entirely. This idiot is basically saying that claiming there are "green monkeys on Jupiter" is the same concept as saying there is a God. It is the type of argument these types use ALOT to deceive people. The debate is on whether there is a God or not. Not whether there are green monkeys on Jupiter. Green Monkeys would be physical beings/animals. In which case we would then argue on whether those monkeys came to be by evolution or a God. God is a spiritual being, or a force. Many for some reason tend to think of him as simply a man. While he came to earth as a man to act as the final ultimate sacrifice for our sins, God is much more. No one created God. The law of Cause/Effect does not apply to him (in fact there is scripture in the bible that addresses this). He is the Alpha and Omega. The beginning and end. This is nothing more than trying (and failing) to reduce the reality of God to comparison with Green Monkeys, Unicorns, Bigfoot, or Santa Claus. It's the same blasphemous argument that has been used for ages with these people. They use it to try to throw others with low IQ off topic. 2. What post? I've replied to several of your posts so I am sorry if I missed one. Repost and i'll be glad to answer...."
Me to YT1:
You can just scroll up a bit to find the post. It's right before the previous post. it's 144 lines.
1. Your comment suggests otherwise, and it looks like you've missed the point again. You lack in understanding. He is not making a comparison between green monkeys and God or the physical manifestation of the two. He's making a comparison on what we assume to be real based on lack of evidence. Now I see why Christians can't debate intelligently. It's not that they're being willingly ignorant. You're all misunderstanding points being made. You're thinking one thing, when the person you debate with means something else entirely. In your head you're warping the argument that makes sense to you.
2. "In which case we would then argue on whether those monkeys came to be by evolution or a God"
This is something interesting you instigated. I don't know why, but this made me think of the authenticity of Jesus being the Son of God. By title, we're all children of God, but how do you prove Jesus is legit? How do we explain "put no man before me," yet we worship a man alleged to be God himself?
"Unicorns, Bigfoot, or Santa Claus."
And i'm going to throw in "boogy man."
Santa Clause and the Boogy man... A funny comparison of God and the devil. If we created such a thing to try to keep children in line, who's to say God and the devil wasn't fabricated to keep adults in line? Remember in the part of the video "how, without God, do we distinguish right from wrong?"
a. It's troubling that one would need the Bible to tell them right from wrong because a lot of wrong can be done via biblical texts.
b. I worry that a person would need to rely on that to keep themselves in check and is actually one of the reasons why I stopped going to church. How do I know how honest these people are? I see some posts online made by Christians that are very deplorable. Christian forums, i've seen talks about homosexuals and how some wished for the death of them. These posters could be anyone, using an alias online, hiding their identity and speaking their true thoughts freely. Could be at least one person i go to church with. It's scary.
c. What if I punched that guy who asked that question in the face? Would he like it? Would he think that was wrong of me to do? How does he know that? Observance! We know the difference between right and wrong through observance. Through mistakes made and we learn from them. I'm sure there's a reason why we don't want nuclear warfare anymore and take it very, VERY seriously. Which also gives me a bit of worry with that deal with Iran. I mean i'm all about making good relations with ME countries and such, but I don't necessarily trust them yet. This is moving too far too fast, but I digress.
Throw others with low IQ off topic, hmm? Last I checked, people who attend church aren't exactly prestigious. Some would say religious folk would take advantage of low IQ people and manipulate them as well. Think about it, manipulation starts at birth. If you're born into a Bible thumping Christian family, that's where the brain wash and manipulating perception begins. It's not just the low IQ churches seek to manipulate, it's the no IQ children who haven't even developed a thought of their own that's being manipulated from day 1. Constantly planting all these things inside their head, skewing their perception of the world and teaching them to be narrow and closed-minded.
To you it would be justifiable, for the end justifies the means. For others, they fear that kind of crap. I'm not sure how religious folk would do today, with our advanced technology and such, but on multiple occasions have Christians still shown me that they can still be irrational and throw out logic and reasoning. This is, to me, reason to give me pause and not want religion to rule the mind of humankind. Looking at history Christians have done some horrible stuff, justifiable only to them. Joan of arc for example. Make me want to cry on that story. Burned at the steak for being a heretic. Why? for simply wearing men's clothing, allegedly to protect herself from guards who would try to rape her. She was under review and made a deal to wear women's clothing during her detainment but after a few days or so the guards stopped giving her women's clothing and the declared her a heretic. A woman who claimed she was called upon by God to fight in the war and turned the tide, and that's the reward that was given to her, because religion had a part in their government and law back then.
People may claim Christians are the most peaceful of religions (which I don't think is true) and the world is getting worse without it involved in government, schools, work places, etc etc. I think of it this way. IMO, I think it's western civilization that's actually keeping Christians civil. I mean, if Westboro Baptists had played a crucial role in government and laws and such, that would be a fucking mess.
Yeah the world is getting worse, differing in opinion, however slightly. Things seem to be getting worse because of parenting. Back then, women used to be a stay at home Mom, looking after the children, giving them what they need, nurturing them, teaching them and such while the father provided. These days both parents NEED to work and don't have time to bring up the child themselves. Value get neglected as the parents are always busy and tired because of workforce demand, erratic schedules and such. So because they don't get the love they need, because they aren't being taught proper morals and are going through development without a proper figure in their life. They go out and do more immoral things. Like try to have a family themselves to make up for the lack of whatever they weren't getting before. I see it a lot, in my community and church people included. Kids going out and having kids. Sometimes not even out of High school yet. Of course this leads to drop outs and some keep breeding without any job. It's the lack of parenting that's making society go downhill and it'll keep getting worse with each generation. You know how I came to this conclusion? I observed. Didn't need a book to tell me this. Though I will admit, the Bible does have family values that if we're still adhered to today, it wouldn't be so bad. So yes, the lack of religious belief has possibly played a factor in he downhill slope society has been on.
IMO if you're both working parents, you should not have a family. If you're poor and uneducated, you should not have a family. If you're still dependent on your parents (or any kind of assistance), dependent people should not have dependents. What people lack today, is fucking common sense. I know it's harsh, but if you want to fix society, you need to get to the root of the problem. You need to stop blaming it on the lack of a mythical book and fix the actual problem, yourselves first. Blaming it on the lack of the Bible is diverting from the problem.
Today we mourn the passing of a beloved old friend, Common Sense, who has been with us for many years.
No one knows for sure how old he was, as his birth records were long ago lost in bureaucratic red tape.
He will be remembered as having cultivated such valuable lessons as knowing when to come in out of the rain, why the early bird gets the worm, life isn’t always fair, and maybe it was my fault.
Common Sense lived by simple, sound financial policies (don’t spend more than you earn) and reliable parenting strategies (adults, not children, are in charge).
His health began to deteriorate rapidly when well intentioned but overbearing regulations were set in place.
Reports of a six-year-old boy charged with sexual harassment for kissing a classmate; teens suspended from school for using mouthwash after lunch and a teacher fired for reprimanding an unruly student, only worsened his condition.
Common Sense lost ground when parents attacked teachers for doing the job they failed to do in disciplining their unruly children.
He declined even further when schools were required to get parental consent to administer Paracetamol, sun lotion or a sticky plaster to a student but could not inform the parents when a student became pregnant and wanted to have an abortion.
He began to lose the will to live as churches became businesses; creationism vied for equal footing with proper science, alternative treatments became available on the NHS (while cancer drugs were banned) and criminals received better treatment than their victims.
The poor bloke took a beating when you couldn’t defend yourself from a burglar in your own home and the burglar can sue you for assault.
He finally gave up the will to live, after a woman failed to realise that a steaming cup of coffee was hot. She spilled a little in her lap, and was promptly awarded a huge settlement.
Barely recovering from that he was bludgeoned to death by the news that the world's financial markets had been demolished by irresponsible bankers who made a fortune doing so and who the governments bailed out by demanding money from those wise enough to have adopted sensible fiscal policies.
This grand old man was preceded in death by his parents, Truth and Trust, his wife, Discretion, his daughter, Responsibility; and his son, Reason.
He is survived by four stepbrothers; "I Know My Rights," "Someone Else's Problem," "I’m A Victim" and "Work? I'm better off on the Dole," and his stepsisters; "Gymslip Mother" and "I'll have a baby and they'll give me a house."
Not many attended his funeral because so few realised he was gone. If you still remember him, pass this on. If not join the majority and do nothing.
As a whole I would agree with this and I very much like this. I'll be passing it on.