Thank you for this.

Gonna play Devil's Advocate for a sec.

First, I can't even consider the minor ghosting such at thing at all, really. The areas that people would be going to in those situations would either be completely public areas anyway, or private hotel rooms they've been invited to. That seems like an awful lot of overreach for a convention to try to make rules about how public/non-convention spaces can be used by non-attendees.

However, that being said, it should definitely be a simple affair to donate to the convention if you're wanting to keep it going and feel good about helping. I'm not really sure how best to handle this kind of a situation, but it's definitely something that I do think about because of some personal projects I'm working. Maybe making sure the convention has reasonably priced day rates? Maybe offering some sort of goodie along with a minimum donation (such as a card or something else small and inexpensive to produce, but collectible)? It's a tough and touchy subject.

I agree with you. many cons i will pay sponsor attendance, especially those where i have been a GOH at before. Regardless cons DO cost money and a lot.

I know you do! Cause you're awesome like that ^_^

I will do a detailed response when I get home, just dont have enough timenergy here right now

Look forward to it ^_^

The idea of doing an event where the con attendees and the outside public can have converse; that would actually help grow the "Furry Experience" for anyone passing by and is curious. To help with the ghosting, major in particular, maybe do a One-Day Pass being the third of the price at the door. These One-Day passes can be bracelets colour coded for each day. Green on Friday, Yellow on Saturday, Blue on Sunday. For the mild ghosts, if they are only there for an hour or so, do ghost passes for very cheap (maybe $2-5), they can be paper and write on the times they believe to be staying. Maybe colour code them too, then it will look like a pack of Skittles-tm has been busted open. This was, the con makes money, ghosts have been busted, and everyone can be given the opportunity to attend the con.

I'm very intrigued to hear that my birthday con got hit with people who would do this. I also agree with Allen123 because of a good point they mentioned. Since I'm working to launch my own fur con, I figure that I should incorporate what Allen123 stated & put this into consideration..

Inform the hotel staff to be on the look out for anyone not wearing a con badge and inquire about their visit to the hotel. If they get a response regarding the con, they'll refer them to the con staff.

That's just my opinion.

Well, the way I see it. Public areas, hotel rooms/restaurant/lobby are public. And public areas can not be controlled, unless authorized by the hotel to make such places private. They are public for a reason and unfortunately whether the staff likes it or not, con-staff has no authority over non-participating public, in public areas. While I think this is rude, maybe put out donation bins in the various public areas that people can donate too, rather than just donating at pannels.

Now, the con space. That's easy. You mentioned people ghosting in headless lounges. This seems like a very simple fix to me. No badge = No entry. Plain and simple. If you're a fur-suiter and you don't have a con-badge, then you can't enter any con-spaces. If you're over heating then take off your head and go back to whatever room your mooching off of. Simple as that. Some may say, well fur suiters overheat and need a place to rest. Ok, cool, I agree, and a hotel room works just fine. If you're a fur suiter then you know your limits and know when to get out. Simple. Then, others might be like, "I forgot my badge," ok cool, go get it. Trust me, people will onlÿ forget their badge once when they're not allowed into their favorite pannel because they forgot their badge.

To me, I'd fix this by having at least one staff member at every pannel and con space, checking badges. No badge = No entry.

And if things get really out of hand. I'd take the Badges one step further. On the back of every badge would be the individuals legal name that they used to verify themselves when they checked in, as shown on their ID. This would be an easy way for staff members to check individuals in question very easily. And then one step further would be, no badge, no ID, no entry.

Most cons do have badge checkers at dealers den, main events - it would definitely become increasingly difficult to have to manage EVERY door but - it could be done if there were enough dedicated volunteers.

Yeah, the issue with my argument Lise in the resources (staff members available). Smaller cons don't need many but the larger ones with dozens of pannels a day, multiple at the same time obviously need a lot of members/volunteers.

My only solution to this would be, unless you have the staff to do this already, to start small. Keep the badge checkers in place for the main events and areas that are already in place, and just start adding one or two dedicated badge-checkers to the pannels. You'd have to start small, so instead of guarding doors you'd have them walk around the con-space and check badges. Then, as your staff members grow, you can assign more and more of those badge checkers to specific rooms, while still maintaining the floaters.

It would also be a good selling point on con-websites that are looking for volunteers. Many people may not be computer-savy, money-savy, or tech-savy (which might dissuade people from volunteering because they don't know what else they could do without those skills), but I'll bet that many of them can check a badge. I dunno, just a thought for those who run the cons. Maybe have a "Badge Checker," volunteer tab on their website or somethin like that.

Another point I see being brought up is punishment for being caught while ghosting. I also think this has a very simple solution.

When you are ghosting in private con-space (not public space) you are stealing. Plain and simple. There is no argument that can be made against this.

If your ghosting at a pannel you are seeing a product that everyone else payed for, for free. If you are not paying for the product that is given, then you are stealing it. And a live show (pannel) is a type of product being offered by the con. Pannels cost money to operate, (renting space, lighting, seating, computers, sound equip, music) they are not free and I'm sure any con-staffmember can back me up on this.

So, what should the punishment be?

If I were to catch someone at my con (if I ever had one lol) then right then and there, that individual would have two options. Either pay the daily fair/registration fee right now, or be removed from the con for the duration of the con.

Just like a shop-lifter. Pay for the item or don't come back. And then, if they get caught a second time at the same con, I would make that individual pay the full-standard registration fee on top of what they already payed (if it was a day pass), or be banned.

Now, some people might be like, well, you gotta start small and maybe slap their hand and say please stop... No... No you don't. Because once they've stepped out of the public areas and into "con-space," now they are thieves. They are stealing a product from the con.

I think the whole ghosting this myself is getting a little crazy and agree with deatheater666 that they are public areas and they cannot be controlled unless authorized by the hotel to make the place private and also if one wants to pay a "chill" fee pay for a one day pass instead of a full weekend pass.

I just went to Furnal Equinox and they handle the problem simply by you cannot enter the con without having your badge present and visible in order to get in once you have exited the con area. People were stopped when not having there badge visible or having it on hand. I forgot mine and proceeded to return to my room to retrieve it before returning into the con.

You either pay for a pass or don't get access to any of the features of the con, simple as that and if so go a little farther and put special ID as death mentioned so that they can't duplicate badges etc.

For sure. As it is now most cons have badge checkers at main events, sponsors lounge, dealers den. But a lot don't have badge checkers at panel rooms or headless lounge. The more rooms the harder the logistics of finding enough dedicated volunteers/staff to watch all those doors. It may be the way to go but is a definite increase in convention resources.

FWA didn't have a fursuit parade this year and when the staff announced that online it was criticized heavily on Twitter. That might have caused some fursuiters to ghost the con. Cons need find a way to make attendees have to get con registration first before getting a room at the discounted con rate.

I always get Sponsor or Super-Sponsor for the little perks I get!

very well said.

Still I'm bouncing the idea in my head that FWA could lose $42,000 just by ghosting. FWA in the past (I attended from 2007-to-2012) always seemed to be a hit and miss ran con though the staff tried hard. For a couple years there wasn't anything on the schedule that interested me besides big ballroom events.

I really think FWA got screwed over by the hotel. At one con I attended a few years ago, the hotel charged the con with the rooms in their block that they didn't sell and that could have happened here.

I have a different perspective because I am local to Atlanta.

First, I always pay for the con, even if I am staffing, because I know how much bullshit staff goes through for those 3 or 4 days (Medical Staff at MFF).

With that being said, there are some reasons why people ghosted that I was informed of by random people at FWA.

1. Locals who live near the con that come by, party, and go home. There is no need for reg if they're not ever going to touch con space.
2. Locals who don't like the staff. I personally don't have anything wrong with any of them but some of the staff members are a bit polarizing. And some locals won't give money to them.
3.Too expensive vs registrations perceived value. Not enough con shit for them to do to warrant them spending $60. For instance, even if I pay for my registration, I literally spend 30 minutes in con space the entire weekend. Panels are boring to me, I don't give a shit about 40 fursuiters all dancing the robot, I can play video games and board games with all my friends in my own space. So, if I wasn't as honest as I am, I would ghost.
4. I have been in furry over a decade and the longer I do this the more I think, "I am too old for this shit" because the fandom seems to get younger and more "alternative" every year(look up "Furry Scene Kid"). Some of them are only here to get fucked up and see friends and they spend the con bouncing from room to room and if FWA is gonna broadcast everything on a live stream anyway, why pay? You can see it all from the comfort of your room while hanging with friends.

Also, I am not a suiter and I think FWA dropping the Fursuit Parade is super lame.

Anyway, Sorry for filling up your FA lol

Honestly would love a system where I could just Pay money to a con even if I cant go to such. I know how a con works as I volunteer for one once years ago in Arizona. Its why I always try to do the top tier badge payments when possible as they deserve the money needed for next year to be better for everyone.

To be honest, I feel like this might be an issue of control. I've never staffed at a con, and have only gone to Youmacon, my local fur con, MCFC, and this year's FurSquared. I found both cons to be very well run, and while I don't know if "ghosting" has been a problem for them before, it doesn't seem like it is. I know up here we have security at every area where the convention is being held, and I feel like that may not be happening at larger cons like FWA? Again, I've never been, so I have no idea what their security is like.

Badge checks should increase as the number of attendees increase, obviously, but that doesn't really fix the problem.

I liked the idea above about day passes. Back when I frequented Youmacon from 2006-2008, they offered day passes for each of the three days of the convention. The prices of the day passes varied, as most attendees were only there for the events on Saturday, the main day. Friday was less expensive, and Sunday less than Friday (since not much happened). I don't know if they still offer this kind of admission, but for small to medium-sized conventions like Youmacon was back in the day, it seemed to work fairly well.

"Ghosting" is unfortunately going to a be a problem, however, if only because of people's attitudes. From the sounds of things, many people only want to go to conventions for a person or a particular thing, and don't feel like the steadily increasing registration prices over the past few years are worth putting the money down for. The pricing makes sense to me: as the convention grows, more people want things to do, and that costs money. The problem ends up being that people come to the con for things that aren't con related, so they don't feel like they should be paying for something that they aren't really going to attend. At that point, however, I just wonder why anyone with that attitude would come at all? If it's just a meet up that you want, there are other ways of doing that. A convention should be about meeting new people, not spending a weekend to hook up with folks you already talk to regularly (at least in my opinion).

Those are my thoughts, of course, and I'm fine if people think differently.

An interesting conundrum... How to secure your convention from the 'bad guys' while still remaining open enough for the 'good guys' to get in.

I was unaware that ghosting was such a rampant situation. The minor cases you mentioned are honestly nothing to concern yourself about. They use no convention resources or time, and can bring in more revenue for the hotel, so I would honestly class that a win-win. It may also interest them enough to register next year.

I was unaware that major ghosting was that large of an issue. While I am not the most observant of people, most everyone I've seen at the cons I attend have badges. I cannot attest to how many are valid con badges and how many may be forged, but it's not my place on that one.

The problem you face here is not one of available money, or costs involved with badges. It's the attitude of those that Ghost. It's the thrill of not getting busted while hanging with the 'legal' people. It's the rush of being somewhere they shouldn't and getting away with it, and there is nothing you can do to change that. You can only combat it, with more door watchers and possibly even spot checks in specific areas.

Security often wander the halls. How hard would it be to have them step into con specific but unmonitored spaces on their travels to verify badges? Door guards are difficult to get. It's a very dull job that many do not want to sign up for. Staying in one place for up to four hours, or more, and just watching badges? I've done it. It's boring. You get distracted easily by shiny things after a while. Most won't want to do it again. They are needed, but scarce. Something to remember when you walk past the door guard and think about rolling your eyes because you are someone that likes to bury their badge under twelve others you commissioned.

Then you have people like me. I'm going to the con to have fun, see performers, panels, friends, my bartender, etc. I'm not there to work, it's my vacation from work. I'm paying to enjoy my vacation from work and there you go. Thing is, I know the con staff totally understand. After all, I'm the target audience for their convention!

Furs, on average, are decent critters. We've proved it pretty much at every con where no matter the number of attendees, we raise over a grand for the charity. The problem is, like with everything else, you get those that are not satisfied with 'normal'.

10 dollar donation badges? Ugh. I would say no, simply because it would add another layer to registration, and lord help you when the donators want their badge even though they are not attending. A paypal donation link on the website would probably bring in as much.

I'd be interested in seeing just how much the special goodies cost the con for sponsorship. While I am glad I got the mug from MCFC 2015, I must confess I just reached over and picked it up from my desk where it has sat since I got home last year.

No joke. It's rather dusty. I need to wash it.

I wonder the percentage of people that got the, well, mason jar with handle and actually have used it regularly over the last year, and how many are like me and just have it sitting around.

Lanyards vs clips. What is the price variance? Most furs that want lanyards already have one on. I've gotten one at the last five conventions. They are in my desk drawer... Oh, except for the AC one... That's hanging from the knob on my closet door. It wound up there when I unpacked and I've never moved it to the drawer. I just checked... that was AC 2013. I should move that.

I will always go Sponsor level at a con. The hospitality suite (and isn't THAT an old term) by itself makes it worthwhile. Food and drink available, nearly 24/7? Heck yeah! Totally sign me up for that! The Orange Juice at MCFC last year... I must have gone through a third of my sponsor cost right there! I know they commented that they had to go buy more because we tore through it that fast.

I do not suit, so I do not know what the headless lounge is like. I've honestly never been in one, but I've heard of some of the things in there. PVC piped air to cool off and dry out heads, paws, etc... large fans moving air to cool down the people in the suits, water, extra long straws, etc... all things I can see being needed, and nothing I can really see being cut. However, if I am right you already have the basics covered and shouldn't need to add more there.

I've got nothing but respect for the staff of conventions. It's not a position I would want. I don't have the drive or motivation to do what you do. I am perfectly happy to pick out the (usually) two conventions I can attend, give you my money and enjoy the fruits of your labors.

I'm drunk and rambling, so I will cut it off here with this last bit: Like any business, you have income and expenditures. As a charitable business, those two items should equal Zero in the end, if listening to Kage has taught me anything. If you are reaching this goal every year, then you are winning! Keep up the excellent work! If you are negative, then look to trim costs. Positive, figure out how to get another six people to wander your con space and smack those ghosters around! Heh.

I've been going to cons for along time. Sci-Fi cons, Star Trek Cons (Before they become giant media events) anime cons, Furry cons. I've probably racked up around 250-300 easily in my lifetime. Here are my opinions.

Cons and Ghosting..

1) Regarding FWA specifically, I heard it was a 27% increase in room block and a 6% increase in attendance. So this = $42,000? - 700 attendees? Seems really off. At cons I used to do 4/room but now I do 2. Maybe more people are tired of sharing and room density is lower? All you can count on is 1 person to a room.

Now on to cons in general. This is my opinion -

Cons tend to try to act like they aren't a business then complain when the business of the con is off kilter. Is ghosting really that big of a problem? I seriously doubt it. We all know someone who ghosts or has. So why come to a con if that's what you are going to do? Well, the answer is clearly that cons aren't supplying what (some) people want aside from a central gathering place with a little discount on a hotel room. The hotel room thing goes a lot further when the con eats an entire hotel and you don't have to deal with mundanes as well.

Maybe cons should start to ask themselves what would engage people if ghosting is a problem? Maybe not. Most cons are cookie cutter anyway. Location and time of year tend to be more of a factor for success than what the con offers.

They all offer:
Services for fursuiters
Several flavors of dance comps
Dances, raves, whatever they are
A Dealers room
People known in the fandom who have 'story hour' or ' Let me tell you about my acid trip' stage shows

And even the smallest cutest little con huffs and puffs and tries to do it all. So really it's more about who I know who is going than the background noise of the con.
Want to get more people engaged? Offer more engaging programming. I think I may go into more specifics on my own journal but for this discussion I'll say if you are sleeping at the hotel, you should buy a membership. And if a con wants to allow someone to drop off a thank you $10 they need to find a way to do it that doesn't involve a long line, because f-that.

700 attendees at $50 reg would be 35000
Maybe their base reg is higher or they're averaging out reg pricing?

Never been to the FWA area, but when I went to Shuto Con a couple weeks back, the major change they made between 2015 and 2016 is they made their event totally private and rented out the entirety of the Lansing Center for the weekend, presumably for avoid ghosting issues. Absolutely no one was allowed in there (it's where the majority of the con goers, and almost all the panels, and the dealer's den were located...all the major stuff) without getting a badge from registration at the main hotel first.

That said, I guess an area similar to the Lansing center or the convention center across the street from MFF were made available during the respective furry cons. I couldn't really see someone getting in trouble for visiting a friend in their hotel room if that's all they were doing. Like I heard someone else say somewhere in these comments- if they have zero intent in being in the con space or participating in the con, and just want to visit friends in their hotel room, that's no different to me than someone that's at the hotel for business that has a collegue in their room for one reason or another. They're not part of the con at that point, so no big.

I will let your Journal uncomented and dive directly into your questions.

Major Problem: Its sad that the majority of Cons doesn't offer the option to attend only a day for a reasonable price. Some do it fair and other do it, but the price for one day is 90% of the price of 4-5 days -> leads to "Mild ghosting" i have done that before and will do it again (but I am fair and not using any Con Space!).

Things i don't need at a convention is:
- Wannabe Popufurs as Guest of Honors
- Shiny Badges, it can be simple - also for Staff-Badges!
- no transparency what are the costs for! The best secret of every Con is what they earned and what they spent. I don't see why this isn't more transparent, it don't have to be explained every cent but my feeling at alot conventions is, that there is earned more money than used in the convention, may think about it.
This also goes to 42,000$ FWA, how does this number is calculated? Be transparent first, then blame others!

Actually as far as I know EVERY con has a day pass, and is is usually only 10 or 15 bucks. I have never seen a furry con that didn't pffer a day rate. If you can show me one, I would be interested.

When a con is 40-50 to attend but you can get a day pass for 15 bucks there is no reason not to pay that paltry amount.


Secondly, as far as I know every con is non profit, and when an entity is non profit, I am pretty sure that thier finances have to be publicly available.

As to where those filings are? it would depend on the con and would warrrant a little investigation, and 99.9% of people are too lazy to do it, to be honest.

I don't know what a shiny badge is, but simple badges can be counterfeited. Each con has to make their own call regarding that.

I don't think that knowing about the cost would deter people from "major" ghosting. I think it has more to do with the personal budgetary constraints than the convention's budget.

I agree that the cost of day passes could use some scrutiny

well, to be fair, it's not a totally crazy and/or out of line idea. Though, I would say that maybe instead of "fee" use "suggested donation". Encourage those who are doing the mild ghosting to donate to help the convention, even single digit dollar amounts per person can add up quick. Granted, they still wouldn't be able to access convention space, but, they may feel it's worth it.

But, perhaps the biggest, and arguably easiest, way to combat a chunk of ghosting of either type, is to be as transparent as possible about costs at opening or closing ceremonies, and where that money is going.
As a hypothetical, if you can express the expenses in terms of the basic attendee cost, say $40 for the weekend, then it becomes easier to understand where the money is going. So, if say in the hypothetical case, of the $40, you're hotel cost is say $20, the insurance is $1.50, rented equipment is $7.50, and the bar, pool, con book, and con suite eat the rest of the amount, it becomes easier to understand costs. Above and beyond that for the sponsors and super sponsors, $X goes to the gifts, $Y goes to charity, and the remainder is held in reserve to help pay the following year's costs, or whatever, it becomes easier ( at least for me) to see where all of that money is going.

But, I digress. Putting it as a "fee" perhaps would do more harm than good, or at least has a very good potential to at any rate. If it's expressed as "if those at the hotel who are visiting friends at the convention, would like to donate to help pay convention costs," it might garner a more positive reception, and the end result might be that they come back as regular attendees. In my own case, depending on finances at the time, I know I personally would be more receptive to the latter than a "fee". Most of the time when I have attended conventions, I've tried to do so as a sponsor. Now, understand that this is primary so that my own food costs go down, even if all I'm having is chips, hot dogs, and pop. However, there is also the innate desire to help a convention out that way as well on my part.

However, as previously mentioned, cons do typically have a day rate, which more or less renders mild ghosting moot, depending on the number of day passes sold, and mild ghosters. There's also a factor of how much a day pass is too.

I need to see more data about this situation. Something feels off about this story to me.

Totally THIS.

Mild ghosting is a non-issue (is there such a term as "mild ghosting"?) and sometimes can't be helped due to individual circumstances.

Major ghosting on the other hand it totally inexcusable and unacceptable. But at the same time, I'm not really sure much can be done about it. As pointed out above, hotel space is public space and can't really be controlled.

I don't believe in ghosting any kind of con and am more than willing to pay my share to attend. In fact, every con I attended last year I registered at Sponsor or even Super Sponsor level, because I believe in supporting the cons I enjoy going to, regardless of content.

There's a panda that beat me to it, but I'll echo it.

Minor ghosting shouldn't even be called ghosting. Today's the first time that I have heard that term. I assumed that ghosting was: going to a con but not paying for it. So, if you plan to access the con space without a badge, that's ghosting. So, no, I am not a fan of having to pay a fee just to be in the mere presence of a convention. I invite non-furry friends to come visit cons all the time just to chill and look and fursuits. If you like what you see, get a day pass. No one has ever taken me up on it tho. Y'all just too weird. Besides, the implementation of such a rule sounds extremely difficult, and I would argue that it raises more questions than it answers.

Major ghosting, aka ghosting, is an obvious issue that comes with the convention territory. Are there people that really think ghosting is justified? Seems ludicrous.

I haven't heard/read anything about what happened at FWA outside of pandez's twitter account saying that there would be a journal and this said journal. What would be interesting to know are the steps that FWA takes to prevent ghosting and how they were circumvented. That would be the best way to move forward. It comes with the territory. Briefly reading some responses above, some hotels are better equipped with choke points for badgers. Then, badgers have to be available. Not everyone wants to give up their con time. It sounds like a dick move to reserve in the con hotel block and not be registered for the con. I've never heard of a con without a parade. That might be a factor, too.

Also, it is worth to discuss what is the deterrent to ghosting? If you are caught in the con space without a badge, what happens? Obviously, there is no black and white answer and each instance has it's own unique set of circumstances.

Hopefully no typos!

Found a typo :(

Also wanted to add since I am reading that it came up multiple times, I don't think that knowing about the costs would deter people from "major" ghosting. I think it has more to do with the personal budgetary constraints than the convention's budget. In addition, that is not the only factor when it comes to ghosting. I just do not foresee the scenario of someone planning to majorly ghost a nearby convention that all their friends are going to, but then they check out the posted and transparent stats on the con website and have a sudden change of heart. Cons are enough work as it is. I am not a fan of making people do more work that they have to.

Maybe there should be an option to donate a small fee (like a fiver) for the furs who only want to attend one or two panels, or only use the headless lounge, without having to pay the full attendee cost. Then they could get a wristband that allows them in and out access only of the rooms and times they paid for? Or maybe just have fun tip/donation opportunities scattered around the convention in general if enough money was lost to put the convention in the red.

Well, the main problem I encountered was registration hours. i already had my badge but my girlfriend came later in the evening after work but registration was closed so the con pretty much ended for us that night. I have been to many anime cons at hotels for over a decade, and they always seemed to have 24-hour registration... How can someone pay and participate in the con like everyone is mentioning in the comments unless there is some kind of service set up during registration off hours for the late-comers?

I know a lot of furry cons have overnight badge pick up for pre-registered people (eg MCFC iFC etc) but I don't know of any furry cons with 24 hour "on site" reg. Though extending registration hours on site is something to look into ^_^

Thank you for your reply.

Unfortunately it was very last minute that she found out she was able to go or else I would have preregistered her before hand.

I just want to emphasize that the situation we encountered should we have wanted to stay (or if we had hotel rooms, i live nearby so i was not staying there) would have forced her to ghost. I gave her $80 to purchase a badge but I would have been willing to pay even more (even like an inconvenience fee) if she would have been able to get a badge.

I think it is important to be able to handle a situation like this one. I can't imagine it happens often but I am sure the last minute people who want to pay should be able to pay. I think con cops could support this need as the circumstances arrive or at least have registration open late into Friday night as more people arrive for the con as many still work pn Fridays and travel so they will not arrive until Friday late in the evening.

Thanks!

Sorry, meant con ops.. Typing from phone >.<

nods ^_^