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Pricing Rant
9 years ago
~ 🐾 ~
I've been reading a lot of bitching an moaning about prices lately (not from you lot, just in general) and I have one very blunt thing to say.
ART IS A LUXURY TRADE IN WHICH THE TRADESPEOPLE TAKE YEARS (and often thousands of dollars in education) TO ACQUIRE SKILLS DECENT ENOUGH TO TURN THE HEADS OF YOU PICKY BASTARDS!
IF YOU CAN'T FORK OVER MINIMUM WAGE FOR SOMETHING YOU WANT AND DON'T REALLY NEED FROM ANOTHER HUMAN BEING WHO NEEDS TO SURVIVE, THEN YOU'RE PART OF THE PROBLEM!
I just found an old price sheet of mine from 2012 and guess what, in the years between being a student and becoming a full time artist, the most I've raised a price is by $30 (not including backgrounds, they went up heaps because I just hate doing them in general). Some prices haven't been raised at all and some have gone DOWN! I was told at uni that as a professional designer (or artist... as I ended up being) I should be earning $30 - $50 AUD an hour. My prices are based on $25 per hr and that was what I was advised to charge AS A STUDENT! That's how much value artists put in the opinion of their watchers. Even I have fallen into that trap. I'm afraid to work for more because I feel my art's not worth it because the odd person who gets a quote from me goes "REALLY?" I'm terrified every time I hand out a quote to someone who doesn't know my prices because half the time the reaction I get is far less than "oh that's fair". In fact most don't reply at all. No wonder I see so many growing artists thinking that $5 is fair for a sketch. Artists can obviously set their prices at whatever they like but the sooner we all earn what we deserve, the sooner the little pricks who cry and whine about the cost of hiring a professional, or even a talented hobbyist, will suck it up and start saving. Only other artists seem to tell artists to raise their prices (thanks Mamath!) and we damn well need to start listening to each other.
Now before my absolutely fantastic watchers jump on me and say "I've never done that - your art is worth it - I never complain about pricing" etc. This is not about you at all. This is just me fed up at the things I read around this site and elsewhere. And it is, it's furries. We have no idea what art and craft is worth. Frankly I personally first looked at the prices given by artists like Falvie and Tsaiwolf thinking "that'd only take an hour or two, those prices are ridiculous" but no, commissions aren't just about time, they are about skill, they are custom made every time and each is given focus, care and originality. If we could all hand out the exact same pose and expression to every commissioner, then yeah, charge $10, cause who cares. But we don't, we communicate, we work and we develop so each and every one of you are happy. We learn, we study and we spend money so every day we improve.
Granted some artists are as bad as some clients with this shit, some clients are as gloriously well informed and supportive as some artists. But why aren't we all well informed? Have you ever gone to a gallery, seen a painting for sale and gone "shit, $300 for a giant blodge of paint? That's a bit much..." I honestly bet that less of you have done that than those who get all uppity about forking over $50 for a flat colour drawing, and why? Because our work isn't on a wall. It's not valued by the rest of the art community, because it's targeted to such a tiny niche that it's often unnoticed. So take that on board phantom complainy people. We are here, supporting this community, feeding your fantasies and bringing your characters to life. We COULD be off giving splotchy canvases to art galleries and making millions but we're not. We're here drawing your fluff butts because we enjoy it and we value you. So get off your high horse, put your hand in your wallet, and make sure we can pay rent next month, or go fucking learn how to draw!
Silvixen out.
PS. I'm officially posting WIPs to trello so if you have an artistic freedom piece you wanna see (because I don't send those out) you may well be able to catch a preview.
PPS. This is a result of watching too many Adam Hills rants, mixed with sugar, and then sprinkled with me arguing with too many teenagers.
I'll have to contact you at a future date and talk prices for a commission though. Proper prices. :)
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/20341589/
I think it becomes to much when the money the artist is earning stops being earned. Yes, in our case there probably is a shelf, but like the low shelf, the high shelf seems to be set by our clients, and as long as people will pay for the work, it's fair. Is it fair that people with less money miss out? Of course it is, because if every artist catered to every client there would be no growth or cycle for growing artists who need the lower market to start with.
You guys pay for what you think is worth it. Everyone has a different opinion of worth and that's fine, that's why we have those big spenders and those who complain about an extra $10. There are just attitudes in the lower market that bother me I guess.
So long as artists aren't being manipulative, so long as clients aren't spending money they NEED, there should never be a limit.
You have to talk to the client what they want, either get on site or prepare a studio, take the pictures and then process them in one way or another. But most people only see the shooting itself and wonder why you take 50 € for the ten minutes you took pictures in.
There's a good bloody reason wedding photographers cost so much, they deal with a lot of crap, have to spend a whole day at your feet and then go away and make sure you look better than you did. I could never do that. I barely passed photography at uni... I don't understand the focus and stuff on old cameras.
Though old camera's can be much fun ... except you want to take a pic of a dog running over the field in a random pattern XD
So many young artists (and experienced ones) value their client's opinions higher than their own. So many of us have anxiety about our work and less faith in what we do than those paying us to do it. That's more the problem than anything. There's no real fix, but that's why I called it a rant. It wasn't really meant to be constructive beyond the point of making me feel better.
That's my opinion, please feel totally free to ignore it!
I find myself not stating to artists "I think your prices are too high", more along the lines of "I know my budget and while I would love to commission you, my financial priorities are focused on something else for the time being." I've actually helped a few artists who are friends properly price their work (as in increase/level their pricing) because they rely on the income but end up raising <$5/hr which is ludicrous.
Thank you for helping out other artists (and helping me by commissioning me so many times).
I work as a private math/science tutor where I have to find my own clients, set my own rates and then follow through with everything. It takes people a while to adjust their pricing to what they are actually worth which is why a lot of artists start cheap but then eventually raise their prices once they feel comfortable in their work. I don't charge less to parents because the math material is easier, it was a contract made by myself and the commissioner in this case.
Two men are in a modern art gallery, looking at splashes of paint on a canvas. One man scoffs and says to the other, "I could do that!" The other man replies, "then why haven't you?"
A man takes a broken vacuum cleaner in to his local mechanic to be repaired. The mechanic looks it over for a few moments, then grabs a screwdriver and turns a screw half a turn. Lo and behold, when he flips the power switch, the vacuum cleaner is now working.
"That'll be $50 please," says the mechanic. The customer replies, "What?! All you did was turn a screw! Why should I pay Fifty bucks?!"
"Okay," says the mechanic. "I'll itemise the bill for you. Labour cost, for turning the screw, comes to five cents. For the ten years of experience, training, and knowledge, that meant I knew exactly which screw to turn, and by how much: $49.95."
I think I've heard both those before but thanks so much for refreshing my memory! That's exactly what I mean, you should be paying the same or more for a bloke who knows exactly what to do, than for a bloke who spends half the day trying to work it out. It's not always about time taken.
Scotty: Do you mind a little advice? Starfleet captains are like children. They want everything right now and they want it their way. But the secret is to give them only what they need, not what they want.
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Yeah, well, I told the Captain I'd have this analysis done in an hour.
Scotty: How long will it really take?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: An hour!
Scotty: Oh, you didn't tell him how long it would *really* take, did ya?
Lt. Commander Geordi La Forge: Well, of course I did.
Scotty: Oh, laddie. You've got a lot to learn if you want people to think of you as a miracle worker.
So, imagine you got this really killer artist who's drawings are about as good as your's or the other bigname artists (cherrybox, falvie, etc.) He's a brand new furry with a brand new account on FA and just opened his commissions for the first time. As a minimal amount of people come across his account, are people REALLY going to want to pay the amount that the other bigname artists charge? I believe that more people aren't going to want to pay as much as them, even though this newfur's art is as good as their's. They are going to drop their prices IMMENSELY in order to even have some customers. I want to say that another reason why people have too low prices are because they aren't popular (not saying that it should be this way). The people who do charge what should be charged are the people who are huge in the furry community. When people commission them, it's also paying for the privilege to get art drawn by them. Then they brag to their friends and all that.
Those "high" prices are much more understandable when it's coming from a huge furry artist in the eyes of everyone else.
As long as the ideas come across
My problem with Chesta sort of got worse when I realised she has almost twice the following I have. If popularity = price then she should be charging more than me, not a fraction of my costs. And what it was, was lack of confidence. She's so muddled in her day to day life and has had so much issue with clients and getting things done that she values herself so little. But that's the problem for her, if she charged more for the same stuff (and she can, there's no chance in hell she'd not get the business with that work) she'd be so much calmer and better off. It's kinda what sparked all this. What I've said is not realistic for the growing artists, it's not realistic given that popularity means business, but it's what SHOULD be realistic. It won't be, but what's the point of having an opinion if I can't yell about it.
Would like to emphasise that you're right.
I somehow also got reminded about this comic:
http://theoatmeal.com/comics/exposure
Look at my glorious duck.
http://saffhire-phoenix.deviantart......Duck-170250035
And I let people use that duck. Poor abused duck.
Call it:
'Robber Ducky'
i'm super tentative about pricing now since i had stopped drawing for a while (so obviously skill level dropped). but like.. i lost a commissioner way back because the very first full color 2-char comic i did for them i quoted 75$ a page. realized it was taking me almost 20hrs a page, and raised the price per page up to 100$ the next time he wanted a comic.. x.x apparently that's bad.
People like to play around with how much they value the medium as a whole, but take it a step farther than they should and use it to criticize. They forget artists set these prices on how they value their own work, "labor" (time spent and stuff), and to help satisfy their needs. I nitpick artists' prices in the brain when I've browsed for possible commissions in the past, but that was along the mindset of what I could afford compared to how I felt I valued the artwork.
I get annoyed by people saying "get a /real/ job"...well boo they're working for pay on a semi-to-full time regular basis so go away
Also I'm blown away by some commissioners who are rapid-fire paying for all these pieces by all kinds of artists so fast. If you spend yourself into a corner don't pin it on the artist x3
Dang teenagers! :v
So when I first read the prices you charged and this rant I thought it was a bit unnecessary. But the whole AUD thing went completely over my head.
Looking at your prices, 40AUD for a colored sketch seems kinda... Low, if I'm honest. I've gotten less for more, unfortunately. Given the fact that I have no artistic merit, I'd find it difficult for me to not agree that a price hike on that wouldn't be uncalled for. I find it kinda strange that it isn't, but that's just me.
Look at all those double negatives.
Now my thing is that I don't like the idea of an hourly rate, because some people are slower than others and produce "objectively" less quality art. Like I see some artists on FA trying to do who clearly are still lacking the basic understanding of the elements and principles of art, such as line, form, movements, etc. So I tend to look more for quality for the price, but that is just me because I have always been told to value quality before price, especially with a lot of consumer goods, such that you can get great products that last forever which are cheaper than some of the more expensive items that break or fail on the first use.
if a character is complex or it would be something arguably more difficult, there are extra charges to account for learning and more hours spent. Some people are scared away by hourly rates for the reason you mentioned and I understand and agree. Which is why I think people should be mindful of how long their work takes them and factor that into their quote.
I've had times where I finish faster and make more profit, but also times where its slower or the commissioner is a super nit picky ass to the point that I drop to like $7 USD/hour which sucks, but it is what it is.
I say quality is important because, like I said you get those artists who want to charge as much as everyone else but still lack the most basic understanding of things like anatomy and etc leaving their art looking very poorly completed.
Someone who draws well but lives in a country where 10usd/hour is a normal hourly wage might charge less for something then someone who lives in a country with a high cost of living.
A person commissioning might not think about all of this and sees artist a charge half for something that artist b charges 100usd for, making him expect to get a certain kind of artwork for that lower price.
And in term, an artist might see those low prices and adjust their prices, making less then a normal hourly wage in return.
I am not saying this is always the case, I think most people who complain about prices are dicks, but some might fall in the scenario described above.
As an artist that sells commissions, to customers you are a business first and a person second. This sounds really harsh, but it's unfortunately true. There are a LOT of high quality, skilled artists on this site, and the only thing seperating two artists of comparable quality (aside from style, but I digress) is their price point.
Australian artists have a really hard time, as Ferix pointed out, our cost of living is a lot higher. Compare our minimum wage of 17.3~$ an hour to the US minimum of 7.25. Even after conversion that's only 9.72 AUD an hour! But it's enough to get you by because that country is simply cheaper to live in. (the cost of living is roughly proportional to the pay-rate)
So we hit supply-demand issues. It's not that your prices are unreasonable, but more that other artists prices are lower. And you can probably guess how the story goes from there. If you can always get something cheaper, suddenly cheaper becomes the new 'normal'.
Does this make it reasonable to complain about prices? God no, but it's not something unique to art, I can gaurentee. Waitresses, store clerks, anyone who helps sell a thing will hear "This price is so high!" from a bunch of customers. We call these people: Rude.
PREACH!!
Your art its awesome, especially in the shading, personally i see that, inclusive when you stream making a commission in idk... 30 min? but you have the skill to do that in that time, to say something I could do a shading like you do in a month maybe with an inferior quality and that not going to cost more than yours. Your prices are really ok, the majority of this community are in the mid 20's they (in the most of cases) work and like an expensive cellphone art is a luxury item, you can’t get angry in the apple store just because the new iPhone gets too expensive, you only pay the price if you want and if you can... idk finally I only want to say "IF YOU WANT IT, YOU WOULD PAY WHAT THAT WORTH"
this has always been and perhaps always will be an issue
frankly the world is full of people that are stingy and just think a picture gets printed out like on a printer rather than all the work that goes into it all. Its really stupid, if they saw actual industry prices they would be thankful for the variety of artists available online that offer their work for what they price it at. Its a luxury, if you can't pay up, don't complain?? I can't afford a Mercedes but am I going to go to the dealership and sit there and whine? no.
What I will say is that on the point of other furs snubbing you over a price quote is unequivocally inconsiderate and short sighted. The aforementioned consumer culture has conditioned people with expectations of extravagant discounts, sales and to an extent, pandering. With these expectations, people often forget that the artists they commissions are people, rather than faceless corporations they usually deal with. This isn't to say I'm morally superior in any way, I should mention, I at times have let these expectations influence my behavior, and in retrospect, I've found my etiquette on more than one occasion, inconsiderate. Though, I always try to remember that, for the most part, I'm usually not consorting with a business, but rather, a person and try not to repeat the same mistakes I made in the past.
While there are some things that I simply don't see changing, the average furry seeking cheap quality art for example. I do think that we have the capacity and empathy to better change our etiquette with the artists we so often commission, and endeavor to better treat them as an individual.