It's always confused me as well, though at least some people have told me that they buy adoptables simply to support an artist they like. That's justifiable, kinda.

that's rarely supporting any kind of artistic merit though, at least not in most cases. i will admit, sometimes adorable sheets have legitimately unique designs, but even in the best case scenario it still feels so impersonal. if you wanna support an artist, why not just buy a full commission?

I've found in my personal experience that a lot of people simply don't have ideas for artwork. They'll say, "I want to commission you, but I'm not sure what to get." Buying an adoptable or a YCH makes the process much easier: you already see what you're getting.

this does raise an interesting idea though. what about giving people very loose 'base' designs to choose from? like a default body type with some very basic traits from which to work. they could choose colors, unique accessories, bodily traits that fall outside the norm, proportions, etc. That might actually be really helpful for some people who have a hard time designing characters.

https://www.furaffinity.net/view/19365336/

I also recommend Oob's character maker. XD

i can't make heads or tails of this thing ouo; it also onyl seems to let me make chibis :B

Well yeah, chibis are pretty much all Oob draws. It's still handy for experimenting with general outlines of characters if not specific details: colors, hairstyles, outfits and so on.

Surely they could support the artist better by just commissioning a proper pic?
Edit: Gah, late

monay

Mass produced adoptables show little creativity but can help pull in some quick cash for a little bit of effort, but doing this too often is just lazy.
Making single adoptable characters is fine by me tho.

https://www.furaffinity.net/user/kanel/

This person does single character adoptables from time to time (but they usually keep their gallery clear of sold ones)

well that basically jsut trumps my entire point. i'll keep my mouth shut next time.

It's good to complain, I'll unwatch someone if all they do is churn out hordes of recolored adoptables

I was actually going to bring up kanel and how their adoptable actually have thought put in to them.

But yeah most of them are cashgrabs.

In my experience, adopted characters aren't usually fursonas. Plus, not all of us have been drawing since we were 5 years old. And even then, some people just like designing characters. An artist by the name of  Gammanaut comes to mind right off the bat. My point is, I feel like you are oversimplifying things and turning it into a simple money thing.

if it wasn't a simple money thing, they wouldn't be charging for it. assuming that they just enjoy designing characters, you really think they're gonna sell the ones they like very much? they sell the sub-par ones.

Welcome to capitalism. Where your hobbies can also be profit. No offense, but this logic could also be used against commissions in general. And things like movies, tv shows, books, sports, I mean, come on, these artists aren't exactly billionaires here.

no, you CAN'T apply the same logic. batches of adoptables, or even jsut individual ones, can be treated like goods on a shelf at a store, whereas commissions are tailored to one's specifications before assembly. there's very good reasoning behind why commissions are my beneficial all around.

I don't know man, I just feel like you are blowing a minor annoyance out of proportion. Besides, all that stuff at the store, the same logic can apply? Why buy brand name tissues when you can commission a special set of tissues for yourself? My point it, you aren't seeing the big picture here and needlessly bashing a capitalist system.

i don't know why you keep bringing up capitalism. But again, no, you can NOT apply the same logic. one's pre-existing and left out with the expectation to being sold. the other is one created based off of an idea shared by a client, that I would argue results in greater care being taken by the artist. I think it's jsut a cheap way of making money for artists who either lack confidence in their commissions, or simply don't care about what they're doing. either way it's a shitty practice.

So why do we bother watching movies then? Why not commission studios to make the movies we want to see? Also, you're kind of saying that anyone who does is it is a rich asshole. The kind with a monopoly mustache that uses their spare cash to light Cuban cigar while bribing politicians. That is not the case, that could not be farther from the case 9 times out of 10. We get it, you hate that somebody is using their skill to make money, not everything is free in this world ya know.

you're using poor comparrisons and completely missing my point. I think you're just biased because you like adoptables. it's okay to disagree, but don't try to make the opposing view out to be some kind of conspiracy.

I'm not making your view out to be a conspiracy. I'm simply asking why you make such poor assumptions over something you have no control over. Seriously, look at your comments in this discussion. You are really assuming the worst in people who make adoptables. Me, I'm just saying they're using their skills to fill service and get payed while doing it. You make them sound evil, and I simply remind you that they are not evil. You're the one with a biased view point here, and it really does seem like you're hating the entire capitalist system. They have resources and skills to make art, they are selling their art, you are hating on people selling their art. So let me ask you this, why is it okay for an artist to be payed to draw something someone else wants, but not be payed to draw something they drew on their own volition?

I say this as someone who's sold mt own work before. That logic makes sense if it's a piece that was made with real care and consideration. That said, what you're talking about is the equivalent of when someone had a bunch of their one painting printed onto canvas, and touching it up with bits of actual paint to create the illusion of an original addition of the piece, when in reality it's made for the sole purpose of creating profit. it's a kind of practice that has been heavily frowned upon in the artistic world for a VERY long time. on top of that, you STILL keep mentioning capitalism as though art SHOULD be treated as in impersonal, mass-produced product, rather than custom tailored work that suits an individual on a case b case basis, you make it sound like you're rather have dozens of okay character designs, rather than have a small few designs that you can more closely personally connect to, whether it be as a sona, or simply because the character more accurately suits your interests or needs. that said, please clarify for me here, do you partake in the purchasing of adoptables?

I have, yes, and guess what, they were all VASTLY DIFFERENT from every other peice on the adoptable sheet. Seriously, why are you treating people who make adoptables like big time CEO's? Making them out to be soulless corporation purely because they sell art? And why is a commission different? Frankly, by your demented hipster logic, commissions are actually worse because for all you know, those artists probably didn't even care for those peices, they're just total sellouts, right? People should never do anything on their own for money, only at the demand of others, right? Is that not your logic? Sure seems like your logic.

Youre making it pretty clear that youre offended, which i can understand given the context. That said, youre doing a lot of word twisting here. My primary point is made toward the fact that they are bulk characters meant for sales, which, from my experience, typically results in diminished effort toward the finished product. That said, if you are satisfied with your purchases, thats fine. The only reason i mafe reference to shelf sales and ehatnot was for comparrisons sake. That said, i still think you would benefit greatly from personalized commissions, rather than settling for someone's creative bulk.

I'm not offended, I'm just bothered by the fact that you are complaining so loudly about something you have no control over, and judging people poorly for their choices, calling them lazy sellouts like some kind of elitist hipster. Yet, in the same breath, you outright say they should sellout worse by only making money off of other people's ideas. Do you not see the hypocrisy there? You are harshly judging artists and potential customers for something you arbitrarily hate because of some hipster mentality that seems to hate the idea of selling anything of our own. I mean, explain to me how adoptables are any different from books or movies or video games or literally anything else that get's sold.

Well thats exactly my point, adoptables might as well be books, videogames, wtc. Mass produced and sold cheap for the sake of a big profit. Ita not like there wasnt art there at first. I never made that claim. That said, what youre implying now is that somehow commissions are somehow bad? I donr even understand what youre trying to argue anymore. All you did just now was make a really outlabdish claim and reenforce one of MY points about the shelf-sales nature of adoptables.

So you are saying that we should stop watching movies or reading books or playing video games unless we commission someone to make them? Because that is the logical conclusion of your rant. Also, that thing with the commissions was just using your logic against you. I pointed out your blatant and almost proud hypocrisy there. Commissions and Adoptables are really no different, they're both art being sold for profit, which YOU, IN THIS VERY CONVERSATION, HAVE EXPLICITLY STATED IS PURE EVIL AND BEING A TOTAL SELLOUT. So either both are pure evil, or neither one is. Pick a side, and stop implying that buying art, or selling it, instantly makes a person a Wall Street billionaire.

first and foremost, you've made it clear that you're jsut upset at this point. i have never used the word 'evil' because that is a nebulous term with no actual validity outside of the intention of producing an emotional response. I don't use empty words like that.

that said, i never implied anyone was a billionare. that said my argument is not one against business in art. my argument is why settle for something impersonal when you can make specifications, and, in turn, a more accurate product.

also, not ONCE did i say that shelf products are something to be hated on, what I'm saying is that this is a medium capable of being mroe than a 'product', it can be an overall more enjoyable experience when a client comes to an artist with an idea, or desire, and the two collaborate to put together a polished idea that the artist then brings to fruition. reducing the drawing to something to be picked and simply purchased removes that whole interaction. Maybe you can only see comms in terms of nickels and dimes, but I've found that people that commision artists are usually very entheusiastic about it, and are eager to discuss their ideas. it's a really awesome interaction that, particularly with this community, can lead to so awesome creative relationships. Adoptables make it easier to just disregard the artistic process and treat the character like some kind of collectible.

But even disregarding ALL of that, there's still one point that I PERSONALLY feel is very important. feel free to disagree with this statement, as it is entirely opinion-based, but I feel like choosing to pruchase a pre-made character is selling one's self short. that's the part I find most frustrating. if there wasn't that easy out, folks would have to pick up pencils and learn the damn trade like all the artists did. one could argue 'oh but i'm not creative'. Well, first and foremost, bullshit. neither was I. secon argument "i'm not talented enough" Neither were ANY of us at first. but we only had one choice, to LEARN. it's exploring one's own creativity that led to sites like this even existing. Why are you on a site made for the sole purpose building an artistic community if you don't want to take an actual part in that community? because buying, and MAKING adoptables is actively diminishing the value of those creative interactions.

If you don't give a shit about creative interaction in an artistic community, then maybe you don't fucking belong here. (I would guess that you do care, and want to participate, but just don't know what kind of damage this kind of commodification does.)

1. Saying something and implying something are equally valid, and you very much imply that adoptables are to be looked down upon, that they are soulless cash grabs, that they should not exist. So you may not have used the word, but you certainly implied the meaning.

2. Again, you were very much, heavy handedly implying that. Comparing people who make adoptables to big soulless corporations kind of has that implication.

3. Yeah, I don't know who you commission or how you commission, but my interaction with artists I've commissioned has been.... not like you describe at all. Pure business really. So again, you're kind of saying that there is a difference between a commission and an adoptable, just not one that anyone can see. Please, elaborate on these amazing interactions you have with artists who you get commissions from, because where I'm from, it's as simple as sending a note, waiting for a price, paying, and then getting a pic.

4. Okay, so let me get this straight.... for some reason, making art devalues art? What? Seriously, what? That's like saying building a neighborhood devalues property. Where is the logic? Why is contributing to a community bad for the community? Art is art, drawings are drawings, characters are characters. Walt Disney is just as much an artist DaVinci, and yet, by your logic, Disney is a soulless hack, not for racism, not for foreign sweatshops, not for lobbying to make copyright laws terrible, but because he mass produced a character for our enjoyment and his profit? Where is your logic there?

5. So you think you're better than me because I bought a few characters and added stories to them? Is that it? That because I supported good artists, you are on some moral high ground? That I'm some plebian who didn't design a sexy panda woman myself, and that you are part of some creative master race? Is that it? Because the implications are just flooding through your comment now.

1: they're not some kind of 'evil' so much as they are the product of either desperation (bills coming up), laziness (drawing non-palette swaps is hard, guys ono), or a lack of confidence (well i don't think anyone's going to want comms from me, so....)

2: I'm comparing them to small store owners, not soulless corporations. competition does benefit the consumer, yes. but do we really want our businesses (artists) to get shut out because of more 'competitive pricing'? I feel like in a small, private artistic community can support itself more effectively than that. we encourage artists to lowball themselves, or discourage them from doign better work by buying into easily mass-produced stuff.

3: I'm sorry that you've had such a dry experience. that's really saddening that you haven't run into an artist yet that was more willing to collaborate with you, it really is a lovely experience. Most of the folks I've done comms for remain friendly afterward. I've even got a little group going on discord comprised primarily of folks who've commissioned me, who i've collaborated with, or whom i've simply had really good artsy discussions with. Add to it, when I stream my work, the folks who show up, including clients, and people who are just interested, show up for shenaigans, and often contribute to the piece in progress, which often leads to big improvements. hell, I would be happy to have you in one of my streams sometime so you can see just how wonderful this community can be.

4: No. mass-producing the same images with minor adjustments creates false standards of value in work, thus leading to people expecting to pay FAR below minimum wage to artists who work their whole lives to become as talented as they are. That is absolutely disgraceful, and SHOULD be discouraged. also, this tangent about disney is completely arbitrary. I don't even understand how you came up with any of that, again, you seem to be reaching for an emotional response, and to deviate from the actual point, that being that this is a small community that could do a really good job of supporting itself, but gets shit because of people expecting a lot for a little. What you're saying seems to be TRYING to imply that somehow I'm okay with disney's atrocious business practices, but I don't see how you came to that conclusion, nor have you provided any real substantial argument as to why that's relevant.

5: I never said i'm better than you. I was saying that if you don't want to be part of an artistic exchange, then this probably isn't the right environment for you. That said, you apparently didn't read the second half of my footer. You sound like you want to support and contribute, and participate. It's great that you wanna support the artists, but why not save up for a commission instead? It's a larger lump sum of money that results in higher quality work, with more of YOU put into the piece because of YOUR specifications, and chances are the artist had a good bit of fun doing it, or at least got some valuable practice. And I know from experience that a larger sum in the short term can be put to much more effective use than small increments of ten or twenty. Also, I never called you a 'plebian' (nor do I honestly know what the term means), nor am I anything vaguely close to being a master of anything,my work has dozens of its own errors, but at least they're all different errors that I can learn from. editing the colors of a single image repeatedly can really only serve to inform color theory, if the lesson there doesn't get lost in 'but would this color combination sell?". the use of 'fuck' in that statement probably implied some hostility, such is the flaw of text. My bad there. that said, I would urge you to look at your own purchases. I'm sure you can see the difference between the comms, and the adopts. Also, as an artist, I'm curious. Do you prefer when people are more impressed by your work, or critical of your work? There's no moral high ground on this question, by the way, you're entitled to enjoy either one more than the other, or equally, I'm ust curious to see what your motivation as an artist is.

1. So it's not that they're evil, just that they're inexcusably beneath you? Because let's face it, you kind of implied that.

2. So all business is evil no matter the size? You're kind of saying that now, I mean, I actually WORK for a small business, and guess what, they're no different than the big ones.

3. Okay, now you're just gloating and rubbing a perceived superiority in my face. I mean, seriously, you are not the only person in the universe, I don't need your undeserved pity.

4. Hmmm, well, then why not just avoid those instead of needlessly complaining about the good ones and saying they're all the same as Donald Trump? Seriously, you could not be saying anything more than "They're giant money corporations" at this point. You say you aren't saying that, but trust me, you are practically screaming it to the heavens.

5. So you aren't saying you're better than anyone, you're just saying you're better than anyone who makes or buys adoptables? Because that's kind of what you are implying. And with the subtlety of a howler monkey using a jackhammer on a train. Let me tell you this, most of my characters are adoptables, and from a small number of artists, and guess what, I commission pieces of them. So now I ask you, for the final time, and hoping you don't tap-dance around it again, WHAT IS THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN AN ADOPTABLE AND A COMMISSION? Seriously, stop with the elitist mentality and answer that damn question.

I'm going to politely gloss over all those wild leaps in logic you made with a lot of the numbered stuff, since you've made it clearer than ever that you're going for an emotional response by using buzz words, and putting words in my mouth. if anything, it seems like you're just taking my words at a sort of face value, and responding as though they are all individually being used in the worst possible context. I don't think discussing any of those elaborate sub-points is helping much, that said, I will entertain your final point, that being the difference between comms and adoptables.

I've already answered the questuion, but you have asserted that my points are apparnetly no more than "tap dancing", and "you think you're better", so let me emphasize my point directly, as I think I found the right words to describe what I'm going for here.

Commissions provide greater overall benefit to both parties involved, even if we only look from a business standpoint.

comms are more expensive, but with very good reason. by paying more, you're giving the artist more incentive to provide you with a higher quality final image, which will hopefully encourage return business.

in addition, that piece is much more likely to meet your personal tastes, as it is being made with the very intention of satisfying YOUR request. This puts you in the creative seat alongside the artist, at least for a part of the process, which I we could agree is a good thing when you're looking at character designs in particular.

Also, thinking about the artist again, the motivation to create a satisfying final product often leads an artist to challenging their own skills by pushing them harder with each new comm, thus further increasing the quality of the art you get. This makes your first comm double as a small investment toward getting an even better comm the next time you commission them, if you so choose.

In short, everyone benefits.

Now with that said, I can see why some people would be pulled toward creatively designed adoptables. sometimes they looks pretty sweet ouo

but with that said, i think everyone is aware o how cheap adoptables usually have to be to sell. Now I could go on about that in and of itself, but i'll be concise, and stick to my primary point. Going back to the comparison to small, family owned businesses, versus the big corporate ones. (not the morality, just comparing how products are received by the consumer).

Think of commissions a small family-owned business, let's say a burger place for discussion's sake.

This family owned burger place wants customers to come back, so they need to produce high quality food for folks to enjoy, in order to keep a steady cash flow.

Then a big chain burger place opens up accross the street and offers only slightly lower quality, but at a quarter of the price. with time, the other business gets phased out and goes out of business, because "hey, this one's almost as good but it's a WAY better price" which makes sense at first.

And then the problem arises.

Now that the Chain is the only burger place in town, THEY set the standard, and when this happens, the quality always goes down. give it a few years and suddenly now the burgers are crap but... what other choice do you have now? you want a burger? gonna have to go with what's available.

Adoptables carry that same potential.

artist who only do comms would either be left in the dust, or eventually have to start producing adoptables in order to compete, much in the same way that the family burger place would have to lower their quality and prices just to stay afloat. Eventually we'd get to a point where the assumed default is to get an adoptable character, rather than desing your own, which is directly discouraging creativity. on an ART site.



Also, as a small side note, I can see how #3 could come off as condescending. please allow me to correct myself, I wanted to encourage you to interact with other artists more during your transactions, and clients if you ever get them yourself. I speak from experience when I say that it can be an awesome experience, which you are just as deserving of as I am.

Alright, fine, let me tell you why your argument against adoptables is bullshit. People who buy adoptables ALSO buy commissions, often times of the character they adopted, but also fan-art, and their own original ideas. Art is VASTLY different from burgers, burgers, you eat them and they're gone, Art however can be stored, printed out, admired for ages to come, and while there are those adoptables that are lazy palette swaps, the ones that aren't should not be discouraged. Seriously, look through my gallery, I commission pics AND buy adoptables, if that alone isn't enough to hurt your argument, I don't know what will. Art is not food, it's forever.

again, you're going on in a manner that implies how personally offended you are by this, and it makes your side of the discussion pretty hard to take seriously.

It's making this honestly pretty tiresome. that said, i know art isn't burgers (unless you believe in art being entirely contextual, which is a valid, albeit questionable, and likely irrelevant point), the fact that you're nitpicking out irrelevant factors suggests that you have nothing better to put forward. I was using this argument in response to your statement about how you saw both comms AND adoptables from a purely business standpoint. This should adhere well to your stance on buying artwork being purely business, unless you're trying to turn it around, since now you can attack it from that same 'artistic elitism' that you accused me of having, but I digress.

My point on the adoptables of higher quality is that they can all fall into one of two catagories.
the first being "I'm going to sell this" (which, as discussed, leads to lesser personal investment, which runs a high risk of lowering the quality of the character being designed.)
The second possibility is "I'm going to be creative!" This starts out innocently enough, but quickly leads to the previously mentioned reason, as selling off quickly produced characters produces more profit, and, as discussed earlier, prioritization of profits leads to cutting costs, or in this case, valuable time from the artist's day.

Also, I've seen your gallery. penny's adorbs, btw. and actually, your gallery does not dismantle any of the points i've made, though it does raise a somewhat relevant question. I did a good bit a browsing and searching through your gallery, and noticed there's a good chunk of adopted characters that only show up in their adoption image, why's that? (this is strictly out of curiosity, this is not meant to make any kind of direct point)

Also, I feel like there could be ways to make adoptables work, like it getting one also involves getting a comm OF said character, which would be a simple addition to the price of a typical commission. Again, the primary issues that I have with adoptables is that they bring forward a cheapened alternative to getting actual commissions. Again, this leads to the problem of 'should I charge less for comms?' which inevitably leads to very talented artists charging far less than minimum wage for themselves. Now this is where I will say that I can completely understand if anyone were to be offended, as this final point that I'm making is where I point the proverbial finger.

If you, as a client, are okay with paying an artist less than minimum wage, then you are part of a very big problem.

By frequently purchasing cheaper work from an artist, you send the artist a message, especially if they are good, but still relatively new, as they are often still in the process of building their confidence as an artist. This is part of the reason why we see so many of them nowadays, artists are afraid to charge more out of fear of losing their client base, but at that point, the only cost-effective option for how to spend their time is to pump out simpler characters and sell them a low price.

This is why the 'Capitalism' argument is so off-putting. This website is NOT nation of people with socioeconomic and societal roles to fill. It is a private online community whose support only comes from those willing to do so. Do you HAVE to buy art from artists here? no. but if you plan on doing so, don't poison the well by low-balling. And, whether intentional or not, supporting adoptables is encouraging people to undersell their work.

Also, an argument i've received a few times is that they "don't have much money, and only can afford to spend about 20 dollars or so." To which, I would have to say, if your budget is that tight, then maybe you should be reconsidering what you use your last 20 for. Even when considering what iv'e said thus far, I do still actknowledge that art is, more or less, a sort of luxury. nobody is going to die if they can't afford to buy some art from someone on this site.

Another argument I sometimes get is that people only pay that little when artists do 'sales'. While there are exceptions to this, I can tell you that, having been an artist for many years, we dont' typically do that unless we desperately need cash. If this is the case, then what I said earlier applies even more so. And quite frankly, I get a bit miffed when I hear people saying 'I'm still supporting the artist', after having paid ten meager dollars, as said people typically don't have any idea just how much time goes into this stuff.

-so with all of that said, on a more personal note, this discussion has taken a substantial amount of my time. If all you're going to do is nitpick at clearly irrelevant factors, then I'm just going to leave my argument where it stands.

1. The only offense here is the absolute hypocrisy of the whole thing. Artists shouldn't make money on art unless they're expressly told to do so by someone else? Seriously, you're basically calling them sellouts and saying they're selling out wrong. Make up your mind, is getting money for a good thing or a bad thing? I really don't see a grey area here.

2. So now you're saying your argument is irrelevant? Because that's the only point I'm going at here. Art is not consumable, it's just there, and people are allowed to enjoy whatever art they want however they please. I don't like Abstract art, but I'm not gonna go on a tirade about it ruining art.

3. Again with the "Adoptable cheapen art" thing. Let me ask you something, did Steamboat Willie cheapen the Mona Lisa? No. Did any of Salvador Dali's works get cheapened by this commercial https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rK4Bh_arF-E ? Doubt it. Is Andy Warhol less of an artist due to the existence of Teenage mutant Ninja Turtles? No, definitely not. Trust me, adoptables will never replace commissions, that's like saying Virtual Reality will replace real life.

4. I'm pretty sure it does. I mean, I get adoptables (Some of which I never got around to using), and I get commissions. Does that make me a terrible person? I doubt it, truth is, I'm not made of money, and neither is a single artist on this website. So perhaps now would be a good time to stop treating them as though they were.

5. Again, this idea that adoptables cheapen art is just not true. Like I keep saying, people who get adoptables also get commissioned. Commissions are not like the telegraph, they're not gonna be replaced by an easier alternative. Commissions are like smart phones, everyone wants them, and it seems like everyone has them, but the fact that some people can't get them doesn't mean they're gonna go aways.

6. I never said that, you're putting words in my mouth.

7. I'm not gonna bother with the rest of those points, because I'm just gonna end up repeating myself. In conclusion, do everyone a favor and remember that letting 1 small thing ruin a much larger thing for you probably means you never liked that larger thing in the first place. Jar Jar Binks didn't ruin Star Wars, no amount of bad Ghostbusters sequels and reboots will ruin the original movie, and adoptables will not ruin art.

no the whole point is why pay money for a character when you can just commission someone to draw it like here http://www.furaffinity.net/view/17849321/
like GF's kangaskhan here, a commission is more money to a artist and bring out there artist skill more.

Umm, both of those characters are mine, just an FYI.

What the fuck did you just say about my red version of Sonic that I bought for $30!? I'll have you know, he is a VERY deep and original character! He eats whoppers, not chili dogs! WHOPPERS! YOU FUCK!

some people just cant create characters so they buy others

I never got the idea either, hell why not just make the character up yourself then commission someone to draw them for you?

meh, peoples do what they want after all, but with the 76 characters that i have, i see in adoptable nothing usefull

you know what's even worse and one of the scummiest things i've seen on FA

reselling adoptables...

i don't even know how to respond to that.

Model sheets as in character references, or?...

ah. makes sense then.