Bursting the Artistic Bubble - Call to Arms
9 years ago
Throughout my time of being online, I've heard some ideas and concepts that are passed along person to person about art/the community that isn't PARTICULARLY 100 percent accurate. I'm talking very common things that people will say, and stuff that, to some extent MIGHT be true, but as a whole, are way too complex to be summed up in a sentence or two.
Now, one of the most important things about being an artist (and just about being a human in general) - is figuring out when to filter info out as bologna, and when to actually listen to something and choose to follow it. The "meta" can have some serious hazardous effects. It's hard to know what's right or wrong, and I've seen TOO MANY artists purposely stunting their own growth because they've heard something from some rando.
So this is what I'm planning on doing. I've collected a bunch of "things I've heard" and I plan on releasing a lengthy bit of chat on delving into those topics. Either debunking, adding support to, or rehashing/explaining them. (Now that I'm thinking about it, youtube might not be a bad medium for this... But for now, I'll just write em out.)
Here's an example of some of the things I'll be writing about. Keep in mind that these are things I've HEARD, not the stance I'm taking on them.
• All you need to do is draw forever, and you’ll get good.
• Doing fan art is bad
• “I’m not creative enough”
• Such and such medium is better than such and such medium.
• Art School is a waste of time and money.
• You can learn everything on your own.
• If you can’t draw well, you won’t be a good artist.
• Work on your anatomy.
• You’re either born with it, or you’re not.
• You need to be good in order to be successful.
• Being Bad Sucks.
• Commissions help you improve because they force you to try new things.
• It’s not a complete piece unless it’s in color.
• “This artist is too expensive.”
• “You need to find your style”
So here's where you guys come in!
Have you heard similar things like this? Things that people have come to believe and accept despite the massive amount of complexity in these sentences? I'm looking for more things to debunk/explain.
So really - Anything at all. If you've heard a thing about art (or the community) - and wanna hear my input on it, submit here! If you guys get to chattin' about stuff, that's fine too!
Meanwhile, I'll be writing these out and posting them in journals.
Thanks guys!
Can't wait to hear from ya!
Now, one of the most important things about being an artist (and just about being a human in general) - is figuring out when to filter info out as bologna, and when to actually listen to something and choose to follow it. The "meta" can have some serious hazardous effects. It's hard to know what's right or wrong, and I've seen TOO MANY artists purposely stunting their own growth because they've heard something from some rando.
So this is what I'm planning on doing. I've collected a bunch of "things I've heard" and I plan on releasing a lengthy bit of chat on delving into those topics. Either debunking, adding support to, or rehashing/explaining them. (Now that I'm thinking about it, youtube might not be a bad medium for this... But for now, I'll just write em out.)
Here's an example of some of the things I'll be writing about. Keep in mind that these are things I've HEARD, not the stance I'm taking on them.
• All you need to do is draw forever, and you’ll get good.
• Doing fan art is bad
• “I’m not creative enough”
• Such and such medium is better than such and such medium.
• Art School is a waste of time and money.
• You can learn everything on your own.
• If you can’t draw well, you won’t be a good artist.
• Work on your anatomy.
• You’re either born with it, or you’re not.
• You need to be good in order to be successful.
• Being Bad Sucks.
• Commissions help you improve because they force you to try new things.
• It’s not a complete piece unless it’s in color.
• “This artist is too expensive.”
• “You need to find your style”
So here's where you guys come in!
Have you heard similar things like this? Things that people have come to believe and accept despite the massive amount of complexity in these sentences? I'm looking for more things to debunk/explain.
So really - Anything at all. If you've heard a thing about art (or the community) - and wanna hear my input on it, submit here! If you guys get to chattin' about stuff, that's fine too!
Meanwhile, I'll be writing these out and posting them in journals.
Thanks guys!
Can't wait to hear from ya!
FA+

That shit BUGS ME
This will be an interesting one to write about xD
Traditional artists study from LIFE
References are important
My biggest peeve though is people complaining about how much artists get paid. Saw some guy post something like "HAHAHAHAHA THIS MUST BE THE FINAL JOKE OF 2016. ALL I SEE FROM THIS COMMISSION OPENING IS "I WANT MONEH"" from an artist nearly (if not actually) as skilled as a professional working at Wizards or a big game studio. It's like.. yea dude, you pay money for very nice custom things that are tailored to you. That's why a Gibson Custom Shop guitar costs over 5 grand and the off-brand is $300, or why any other kind of custom, high quality, SKILLED thing is expensive!
I find explaining it in terms of other jobs helps. Say you're a pretty skilled artist, you've been working hard for ~4-5 years (probably more) on your art, and you're pretty well known here at FA. If you'd gone to school or an apprenticeship to learn a skilled profession, even something like an Electrician, or anything along those lines, they're earning like ~$30 an hour starting out. Pretty respectable. Now, put yourself in the artists' shoes - you put in all the pain and years of work to gain this difficult (and in the grand scheme of things, pretty rare) skill - it'd be fair to charge $20 an hour for this, right? It's DEFINITELY not anywhere near a minimum-wage level skill, unless you're a "decent" beginner, so $20 is even being generously low. If you're buying a full painting from an artist, an average 1-character painting with a BG is going to take a GOOD artist ~8 hours. Might take 6, might take 15, depending on complexity or other unexpected roadblocks. If the artist charges you $20/hr or even a flat rate, no matter how long it takes, that's ~$160 for a day's work! I'm sure that number seems shockingly high to people who buy art on FA, but art's not magic and we can't wave our styluses and poof wonderful art into your hands that easy!
I think the lack of understanding comes from the fact that art can also be a leisure activity, when there's no pressure or specific thing to work on, it can be just pure fun, which is definitely a rarity for most jobs. It also offers more "apparent" freedom than other professions - zero commute; can take a sick day whenever you want as long as you make up the work on subsequent days; you could even live a traveling lifestyle, because you can work anywhere as long as the place has access to the internet. So it "appears" like it's some cushy luxury job. What they don't factor in is the stress, the years or work it took (and constantly takes) to get where they are, the TAXES! Or really anything else, and only see the amazing parts of art that make it worth working hard for.
I could rant for a while on that topic, but I'm curious to see what you think about it when you write this up. Good idea Carrot!
HOWEVER, I actually believe the diminish in value is due to saturation. There's A LOT of artists out there, and there's A LOT of different cultures and life styles out there. 100 bucks for a painting might be a dream come true for one artist, and might be bordering a waste of time for another. It's honestly a bit more self fulfilling than I'd hoped, it's impossible to get everyone on the same page.
But lots of skilled individuals coming up, TONS of outlets online, SO MUCH free content can be seen in just a few minutes.
What we do is Fine-art though. It's an INCREDIBLY dynamic market. You're literally worth what people think you are. Unlike a job in commercial art, where you're paid to make a product, which, even still, sells for way more than you're worth haha (but it's tons of teamwork and combined effort for that product.)
Anywho! I've got a few points on this particular topic.
But yeah! My point is all about spreading truths/deubunking bologna that I've heard. Doing what I can do get peeps on a similar page. Unfortunately most of this is dynamic and subjective, at the end of the day I'm ok with someone thinking "Wow that artist is expensive" - but I also want them to realize how/why and I understand that that is totally ok.
Definitely know what you mean - there are tooons of different kinds of artists out there, and I guess it's not fair for me to paint us all (HA) the same. I just can't stand seeing people complain about super-skilled artists' prices and publicly bashing them for being overpriced. Sure if it looks like they didn't give a good effort and charged you $300 for something that took them 4 hours, sure! Call them out all you want. The way I look at it is if you're a commissioner, buy art from artists in your financial league - don't complain you can't win an auction from Rajii or anyone around that level.
Anyway, you've got some good points to share sir - looking forward to reading them!
A product is worth exactly as much as the customer is willing to pay for it.
Even if you are the most skilled artist the world has ever seen, if the customer will pay $50 for it, it's worth $50. Sitting there saying "i am worth more than this" may be good for people's ego but they will never make any money. It's best to work on average costs, decide what kind of price range is best for your finished product and then go with that.
On top of that, making it easier for the customer in any way sells. If you have customisability, diversity, a good turnaround time and a friendly persona, quite simply you CAN charge more for that. People like to feel safe and well looked after, and they are willing to pay for that.
Past even that most furry art produced on commission is most comparable to bespoke clothing. A complete luxury that is often completely worthless to anyone but the buyer.
But this is why Carrot's bringing this stuff up - all of these topics are multi-faceted and complex, and to boil them down so much that developing artists change their own perspectives of themselves based on what some people say/think can be detrimental. You've gotta make your own way, and some of the "default" answers to these questions are just maddening to read as someone who was once asking those questions and now has a decent amount of experience =p.
Art's just a weird "thing" in general. It's clearly worth a lot to people, or none of us would care to watch movies, play games, listen to music, or in this case, purchase/create art. It's definitely well past the realm of spending money to survive. If you're in a financial situation of living paycheck to paycheck, art's one of the last things you should be spending money on, but once you're comfortable and have a little spending money, it just becomes one of the "things" you can buy to enjoy your time some more. Some people like to spend it on alcohol, or movies, fancy clothes, or trips, and others spend that extra money on personal art. So yea, maaaassive gray area that art exists in - maybe Electrician wasn't a great comparison, but I think you can probably see what I meant by the example, at least.
Good points though!
"Using a reference takes no skill"
"Not having a unique style means you suck"
"Drawing in someone else's style is easy"
"Drawing in someone else's style is stealing"
But no, really. One of my best life lessons that I've learned from NYC is that you do not mattr on the perception of all. You should focus on what takes you better in societies eyes regardless of what society thinks overall, tailoring yourself to society only when it makes sense based on your beleif of whatever you wish to follow (for onstance, I care about the financoal sense and I don't care about the social sense at all).
Also, don't drink too much at company parties. Holy fuck, I might take a day off tomorrow.
Sorry to drag on, I just wouldn't want someone to stop because they don't think they're "naturally gifted" I think given 20 years of experience anyone could become a great artist whether they started that journey at age 3 or 30.
And then you politely remind these entitled fucks that a simple logo done outside the fandom is going to cost you more than a fursuit in many cases
I think that's the real reason artists disappear or walk away for a time. They found real jobs or projects outside the fandom.
"why are you drawing that "
the pictures were a bit questionable tbh
As much as I try to live after this, it never works >.<
I recently forced myself into drawing for me again, and honestly, SUCH a big difference. Bear in mind I'm 25. It takes time, acceptance, and a shit ton of willpower.
This is something I'm guilty of doing. I compare my own art to others' to see where I could improve, but people have told me not to do it. I thought you might have something to say on the matter.
I'm not even an artist and I've heard that a couple of times. Seen it said to a friend of mine whose an artist as well...
At least in my opinion, I don't think artists ever get tired of even the most mundane comments; at least people are paying attention. It's what keeps me going.
For my self, a lot of people ask me how to draw better,how to whatever better and I feel no place to tell them how or why because art is such a personal growth regardless of how you do it or try to achieve. I could never explain in a mechanical way or a "How to" type, how to draw hands. Hands are such natural pieces of nature and each and every hand is unique. There is a bases and a start on what a hand may look like to give your self and your viewers the idea or impression of what you're drawing, but I could never give that step by step so many "How to draw books" show; and it's not because I'm unable, it's because there really is no "How to" for art, only guides. Art is like life, art is life, you can show a path and how to go about it, but it's up to the person on how they will truly go about what they have been shown, taught, and how they took in and rendered the information in their own minds.
Good luck! I hope to see a well informed piece with lots of points to add!
"I didn't know you were a writer. I faved that one submission for the art."
"Reading takes too long."
"You should post more often."
"I have this awesome idea! Can you write it for me?"
I'm sure interesting discussion will ensue, though! Would participate if I could.
but it's chaotic, it seems like a bunch of people are as sure that they're right- but if it's a contradiction, then them both being right would be a paradox :s
But if I have just one request, could you dabble on those people that come out of nowhere demanding free art or worse those that offer to pay in "exposure".
This is something that drives me crazy sometimes. Everyone preaches about being self-taught and how you can learn everything online via free resources. This is true to a point. But there are things I'm just not good at. That doesn't mean I'm not working hard or that I just gave up. No one writer can write everything. I'm speaking as a writer since I don't draw, but writing's MY ART, and the same thing applies to me.
Sometimes we're not our own best teachers for every, single, thing we need to know to improve our work. We need outside eyes to guide us and help us with things we suck at. I write from my gut, but my technical skills aren't ideal, no matter how much I revise on my own, I'll miss things and
Now some would say, "Just practice your grammar use and tense shifts more" and that's a valid point. But some writers just aren't wired that way. Even writers who can revise their work better than me still need editors. Great editors are hard to find, and to afford, but more on that later.
“This artist is too expensive.”
I see two sides to this statement.
Yeah, I'm disappointed when I an artist I follow and love is priced beyond what I can afford, but I'd never belittle them for valuing themselves, I'm frankly happy for them because that allows to do more of what they love, and I hope one day when my finances have improved, I can commission them for what they're worth and I get awesome art, everyone wins.
In the meantime, I search for other artists who I can afford, and not go above my personal budget.
But I want to touch on this from a writer's perspective.
I'm seriously grateful to every artist I've worked with and I don't take any commission in my gallery for granted. As some of you commented already, if you look hard enough you'll find artists you can afford who do great work. I'm all for artists valuing themselves, whatever they do, but it's also important to have a diverse range of pricing so people aren't left out in the cold, so to speak.
Not all artists value money the same way. Of course it matters to sustain your ability to keeping doing it and learning more about your craft, but if everything is out of reach for most potential clients, no one gets paid and no one wins. I'm oversimplifying this, I know, but I'm known for being too complicated in my thinking and I did it to make a broader point.
For some the paid by the hour model is fair and absolutely valid. For others a flat fee makes more sense. Neither is wrong.
The old saying "You get what you pay for" is true, to a point, but whiny clients with unrealistic expectations aside, no one person is black and white, and no one business in the same field is exactly the same.
You can totally appreciate the effort someone puts into their work, but at the end of the day, your limited budget is your limited budget. That's fine for personal art. There are plenty of workarounds if you just take some time to look for them.
When we talk about art for commercial use, however, that's the area I think artists and clients don't always get each other from both sides.
Of course there are jerky clients who expect a lot and try to give less for it. But the writers I know don't think of illustrators and other types of visual artists that way. Most of us, again myself included, are in complete awe of you. We know what you do isn't easy. You work hard to be as great as you are.
These aren't ignorant brats who want to take advantage of people's skills. They're honest, decent, and hard-working people who are reaching out to those with skills they lack but need for their art to sell.
As a writer, I put the same due diligence and effort in my words many commenting here do with their visual art. I'm the first to admit I'm guilty of being jealous of visual artists because their work can easily be digested and understood, versus a novel takes more time for people to connect with, it's hard to make it sexy and enticing (I don't mean writing erotica, nothing wrong with that, of course, just making the written word in general stick with people the way something like Monet's "Sunflower" series does).
It doesn't help that the outside of a book needs to match what's inside. Lots of readers (myself included) have bought or picked up books solely because the cover draws them to it. I know from being in publishing for 10 years how vital first impressions are to hook people.
It's not just my stories being up to pro-level standards, but also how their packaged matters, too.
Now some of you will inevitably say, "Just save up and that's that", well unfortunately it's more complicated than that.
Being an indie author is just as daunting and scary as it is for a new freelance artist taking on their first client. Indie authors are essentially their own publishers, and with that comes a lot of responsibility and requires a LOT of skills that don't come easy for many of us.
We don't have the budget of a Big 5 publisher to finance what we need to be successful. Working with visual artists is just one of many expenses we have to budget for. It's no different than artists needing paints, brushes, or using digital software to do their work. I've spent as many hours hunting for illustrators and cover artists I can afford as some artists do on a detailed full-color commission, with complex shading lighting, and several characters with a complex background.
Now understand I'm NO WAY saying artists should make special exceptions for anyone. This isn't me being "Needy Selfish Author" here.
I'm just asking artists who do commercial art (like book covers and interior illustrations as in my case) to see our side of it. We both want the same thing, to be valued for the work we do, and we have to assert that.
But we should also be mindful of the other's point of view. Again, barring the sleazebags who don't have empathy and any semblance of knowledge of what it takes to do art and put it out there with a price tag, a lot of us are just trying to make it work however we can.
I hope in no way I've offended any of the artists who've commented here. I both respect and humble myself to your frustrations and dedication to your craft. I just wanted to bring another perspective to this conversation that I think is a great idea to have.
I think you hit the nail on the head regarding visual art being easier to digest. Accessibility is quite a thing - and the amount of work an audience has to put in for literature is exponential compared to a single still image. Though the ones that do put in the effort, tend to leave with an experience much greater than a single image!
I'd imagine, for the cover-art sorta thing, what might be the best approach is some sort of royalties agreement instead of a flat out commission. Assuming the artist and writer are in the same page, and believe in the product, then something can work for sure! I know there's a TON of stuff you guys have to pay for going the indi-publishing route, I don't mean any huge royalties, but something so that it's a potential sacrifice, with potential huge rewards, for both peeps.
I know the amount of sales on comics are pretty dismal though. One of the biggest problems is the furry community is so small.
I'm curious if literature will ever make a comeback. Writing is an incredibly important skill, and the meat and potatoes of any (well, most) commercial arts. But it seems that there's so much accessible material out there, that people aren't in a rush to get to the books...
If the artist charges too much, you can find at least three other people with similar quality and style that will have less insane prices (probably, or you're just a cheap asshole). Artists generally ask for a price that makes it worth their time and effort. Occasionally I see paintings for $500 that i could do MORE TO MY LIKING AND PREFERENCES and i am a bit judgey internally. But if that is what makes it worth giving up their piece that they invest time, love and materials into, then it's worth it. DaVinci and Michelangelo are expensive because nearly every human on earth either knows their names or has seen their art. Publicity has a cost. Dark Natasha and Blotch are kind of the furry versions of artists every fur knows about, and they do deserve to charge more for their time and name brand. I don't like designer purses or brand name jeans, so I tend to shop for second hand and in junk stores, and I often prefer supporting obscure artists because it makes me feel like I'm helping when i get a really rad, original piece from someone who may be pretty unknown in our fandom. Supply and demand raise prices as well as "talent" and "inherent goodness" and even "time/materials/experience"
I'll never be good enough is just bullshit because when you are, say as good as Davinci, you will still see the flaws in your art. No matter how much you hate your own work, there's probably someone that will think it's cool.
My personal mantra related to art is Stop Giving a Fuck. Whether you are a creative person, an admirer, or a collector, this applies to everyone.
Can't afford a full color DN piece? SGAF- find other artists, there are so many amazing people you can find someone else that fits your aesthetic. Whether or not you are too much of a cheap asshole to afford them is another story ^^
Not as good as ButtholeWolf69er,who is my made up perfect artist who simply shits majestic porn? SGAF and worry about your own art, take inspiration from them AND other artists and do something to work towards being more the person/artist or whatever you want to be. There's a BILLION ways to improve your own art, from drawing nothing but circles and lines for days on end, to taking a class, or asking for help and redlines online. Sure, it will probably involve some money, time and figuring out how to obtain that stuff/help, but EVERYTHING in life requires effort and taking first steps. Many online tutorials are free. As Wesley said, "Princess, life is pain. Anyone who says differently is selling something." You will probably suffer, feel angsty or have 'better things to do'. Life will not stop, the world will not cease to turn just because you feel sad and don't want to draw. You don't have to starve to be an artist but you are going to have to suffer in some form or another. But that can be said about pretty much anything. People make it look effortless because you don't see the internal process or the years of effort to get to their level
Are you realizing someone might be changing their style and you don't like that? SGAF- appreciate the shit they have already made, realize that everyone needs to do their own thing and either support them because you know they are cool or look for new people to follow. There will always be new cool artists, all you have to do is look around.