I agree with you at the fact that the penis gets more attention than the vagina and I agree that needs to change a little. I love vaginas and I love your content too, seriously I'm into the whole large vagina lips thing and the squirting/pussy juice stuff x3 the more nectar the better ;3


But the thing I don't agree with is that. . . . Before I say anything, I want you to know that I respect your opinion and I am speaking with all due respect here

It's ok to have you opinion that you don't like the way people draw vaginas, but that is no reason to call people ignorant and arrogant

I mean, if they are being assholes about it then sure they are being ignorant and arrogant.

But you need to understand that people have their own way of drawing vaginas, and from what I read in this journal, you make it seem like they are arrogant and ignorant for not drawing vaginas the way you want them too. again I'm not antagonizing you, I'm just saying that the way you put it makes it seem like if they don't draw vaginas the way you want them to or draw them realistically, that they are stupid and dumbasses.

Hell, I love breasts a lot, and occasionally I see art where the breasts are not draw correctly and yeah, I don't like it that much. But I don't call them ignorant or arrogant for how they want to draw breasts.

And about the hack stuff, the price of the art depends on the quality of the artwork. Like someone who puts ALOT of detail and effort into a piece, it deserves money. Even if the vagina looks a little bit unrealistic or "shoddy" that doesn't mean the art is shit. now, it's ok to think that people who draw vaginas half-assed shouldn't charge hi prices for them, and that's ok. I both agree and disagree with you on that.

I want you to understand that people have their own way of drawing vaginas and dicks, and you seem to criticize people about that. Now, I'm not saying that you shouldn't criticize people, you can. but only if they ask for critisizim, or if not you could ask them if they'd like criticism. If not, then don't judge them. (I'm not saying you ever did or didn't judge people for declining criticism, I'm just talking in general)

Yes, some people draw vaginas mediocrely, and then they charge a lot of money for it, and that sucks. But that's no reason to call them ignorant or arrogant or saying that their style is bad :/

With all due respect satch, I thing that is very disrespectful to the artist.

We all have our own ways of drawing satch. Like for example, some people draw vaginas realistically whether the drawing is in cartoon, semi-realistic, or fully realistic form. And that's ok, I don't mind. They can do whatever they want with their art.

I'm sorry for rambling :/ but what I'm trying to say is, calling people ignorant, arrogant, or stubborn is no way to talk about other artists who want to draw vagina the way they WANT to draw them.

And if you want vaginas to get more attention than dicks do, try to do just that. Your work is a prime example of artists who pay attention to detail to the vagina and that's good.

I understand that you want more artists to draw more detail to the vagina and pay more attention to it, and I don't blame you either.

It's just that I think you're being a bit too mean to those who don't draw vaginas correctly

If I was a little too vague with my argument, please let me know. And I'll try to make it more clear.
I'm taking this in a civil manner :) this doesn't mean I hate or dislike you. I'm just explaining why I disagree with you and what kind of approach I suggest to you ok, satch :)

(You managed to be quite thorough I think)

Firstly, I will mention something that I do find a bit amusing: The agenda, or w/e to call it, that I push for, is to allow ALL types of vulva, vs "only the loli vag" as my opposition demand to be the "law". So that is something that I roll my eyes at whenever someone tries to accuse me of "forcing my fetish onto others", considering that's literally what they are doing, while I am doing the opposite, by suggestion letting people draw whatever the fuck they want xP But yeah, I am personally pro female endowment and squirting :P

And the reason I call them ignorant, arrogant and/or incompetent, is because they ARE as said.
It's no a matter of opinion, this is just pure facts. And do note that this ONLY applies to those that warrant it... granted, that is a majority of people, at least popufurs, but you know.

And yes, almost all of them are assholes about it. Many of them brag about how they can't draw pussy for shit, along with how their fans are too stupid to have a standard. I recently had someone compare it to the "noble art of scalping", how if you as said: purchase a 20 $ ticket, then sell it for 100 $, everyone wins on it. As long as no-one is an asshole, and exposes how much the ticket was originally worth. Likewise, they defend their right to copy paste pussies or spend 30 seconds on them when they take 4 hours on penises. As long as their customers are kept in the dark about that, everyone is happy according to them.

And again: It's not how I want them to draw it. I only compare it to their own standards as said. When they make claims like "you can't put human genitals on a anthro, that would look retarded!" and follow that up in the same sentence with "you can't put animal genitalia on a antrho, what are you? A zoophile? Want me to draw scat or what?". Which, quite frankly makes them come off as retarded. With how they lack the basic common sense to see how such a statement contradict itself. Them wanting it to be excused as "it's okay when we do it" doesn't really help. Nor does the fact that all of them claim they are "great at drawing pussy" to paraphrase. Nor does it help when they start to stutter, rub their shoulder and go all "Oh well... I uh... erh... um... can't show you how great I am at drawing it, cuz... stuff...". The burden of proof is on the one making the claim. When I say something, I back it up. Or refer to "proof in the pudding" so to speak. Like how the artists that claim they "totes COULD" draw detailed vulva, has not once ever drawn a single one. And said people then immediately shift to try and deflect and obfuscate. Going usually to a "well, that's just like... your opinion, man!". As soon as the truth doesn't support their claims, they drop it in a heartbeat, and insist you just have to take them on faith. After all: They draw REALLY good dicks. That means they automatically are great at drawing pussy too. After all: Why would they scramble to come up with all these last minute excuses, if they actually didn't know how to draw? That's a ridiculous conspiracy theory! They got nothing to hide! ... just stop looking into their desperate attempts to censor people that bring it up. Nothing fishy going on there...

People that actually HAVE proven it's actually a "style/preference" I have 0 issues with. It's these guys that DEMAND that everyone HAVE to be okay with drawing loli vags and hyper dicks, then accuse me of being narrow minded that ticks me off. They try to slander me for encouraging people to draw whatever anatomy they want, long as it matches their style, and they aren't bigots about it. Yet they gladly leap on any person that tries to draw a human penis on a horse, shrieking at them to "do it right". Then they gladly chuck out all and any implied moral standpoint they claim to be behind. Then goes all "What? What? It's okay when WE do it. We just have people's best interest in mind!". Like with you said with breasts. To compare that to this: This is an "argument" these people use: "You have no right to critique me! I have more fans than you. I have spend MONTHS learning how to draw all these different, unique and detailed penises. Don't you DARE critique me just because I haven't bothered to spend even a single day to learn how to draw pussy, because I draw penises far too detailed to be able to have my incompetence pointed out to me. I chose to not know how to draw female genitalia. That gives me the right to charge full price for it, despite not being able to offer any quality when it comes down to it. Because I am great at drawing dicks." to paraphrase lightly.

As for the hacks. Essentially: They argue that, just because they can't provide even 5 % of the quality of the product, they should still be allowed to charge full price for it, because "their fans are too dumb to tell the difference", and "as long as they are ignorant and happy, what's the issue?"
If they can charge someone the same for a 4 hour drawing, as another for a 30 hour drawing, with the only difference being what genders are in said drawing. How is that any wrong in their book? They are paid more money, for less work, and without having to put effort into it. And the one that bought it believes that's all you can draw for a female, so they are none the wiser.
And ESPECIALLY as all of these artists has admitted that they would REFUSE to pay someone even ½ of what they are charging, due to thinking the quality is faaar too poor quality and service to charge money for. So, they are not even willing to pay ½ of what they are charging, for their own work. Yet thinks it's totally fair to sell it for that price? When they for their males, compared to their females, offer around easily 3000 % better service and selection when it comes to penises as to vulvae. They can offer a plethora of penises. But when it comes to the vag, they just stand there drooling going "durr..." unable to offer anything of value. So yeah, if they ACTUALLY put effort into it: Sure thing, they are worth money. But the ones that barely know how to draw ½ a vag, and usually just copy paste it due to being too lazy to even draw the slit: No, fuck those guys. They don't deserve a dime. And should in fact cut their prices by AT LEAST 30 % when it comes to drawing females. If you can't provide an adequate service, don't charge money as if you can. I mean ffs, many of them even get upset that they would be expected to have to work for their income.

I only judge people that ... "ask for it", so to speak. To put it simply: If they go prancing around, gloating how they essentially are the second coming of drawing pussy, yet has NEVER drawn a proper pussy, and does everything in their might to come up with excuses to why they don't have to provide evidence. Then no, I will judge the shit out of those people. If you make claims, atop intend to cash in on people. I will hold you accountable. There's no "oh golly gee!" playing dumb with me. Like the "Gee wiz! There's no futa in this futa folio I am selling to people, despite saying there is! Who would have thunk?" As firstly, that is false advertisement. But the ones that use it say "that's just how the market works now! Deal with it!" I on the other hand, think that people have a right to know what they are purchasing. If an artist actually was upfront and honest about being incompetent at vulva, then sure, have at it. But, they're not at said. They claim how they're amazing, just, they can't prove it, because... fuck you man, you're not their dad!

If they can't draw proper pussy, charge a ton of money for not being able to draw it, AND lies about being actually amazing at drawing pussy, then YES. That IS a good reason to call them out on it. As there's no inherent quality control on the internet, this is the closest we can get.
If they are incompetent and/or ignorant/arrogant, their style IS bad. At least when it comes to their female genital anatomy. If a master chef can't boil water, you can call them a bad chef when it comes to boiling water. It's no different here. Except, in most of these hack artists cases: They are PROUD over being inept. As if it's a bonus that they cant draw vulva for shit.

It's not close to a third as disrespectful as the artists are to their customers, and female genitalia. Just like we don't have to be tolerant of intolerance, we don't have to be respectful towards disrespect. People only ever take advantage of that.

As for different ways of drawing: I am fully on board with that, as long as they make sure it's matching. You can't draw photo realistic dicks, and demand it HAS to look like that. Then attempt to go all "pfft" and just draw lazy doodles in instead of matching pussies. Likewise, can't insist that all males NEED to have animal penises, no compromises. Then flip 180 and be all "Well... come now, lets talk about this, lets not be so hasty!" when it comes to females. Especially not if/when the primary argument is that "but, then I'd have to learn how to draw/put effort into my females..." or how they don't want their fans to find out how incompetent they actually are when it comes to female genitalia. If they don't allow the opposite/counterparts, they have no right to come and try to push for the other side.

It's coo, I ramble a lot in general xP
And I only refer to artists that ACTUALLY applies to. So it's fully justified to call them that. Especially when ALL of those artists have admitted that they can't draw basic female genitalia for shit, they aren't able to offer a quality product unless you purchase a male from them. And that they are all pro-discrimination towards female genitalia, as long as that means they can push their own loli vag and hyper dick obsession. Essentially going "yeah, we are in control right now. So stfu, bow you head! And don't shake the boat!"
When their primary reason for how they "want" to draw it is based off incompetence, that it's what takes the least bit of effort, or most easily rips people off. Then yeah, they CAN do that. But demanding that they are allowed to LIE about it, and pretend that they are on the side of the people? No, that's when they are both trying to have their cake, eat it, and demand that you pay for both their cakes, AND give them yours too. As their primary concern is that they don't wana have to give people a quality product. If their fans are so gullible they accept a 30 second doodle as the same value as a 4 hour HD picture, why the FUCK would they want their fans to grow a standard for female anatomy? They are making sick, easy banks on being willingly, and knowingly incompetent and/or ignorant. And atop wanting to be able to push their fetishes and obsession onto others, but at the same time disallowing anyone else from doing that. As that's inconvenient to their profit.
It's not that far off from US republicans wanting to pass laws so that companies can sue a state if they're not allowed to ex: dump their toxic waste into the drinking water, and instead demand that they dispose of it safely, as "hey, that cuts into our profit!". Same incentive structure here. They don't want people to be aware of the backdoor deals and bs they are pulling Cuz, that could harm their income. (like the "Oh! How DARE you point out that I am falsely advertising my products?! That cost me sales!")

And that's what I do... and at every step, one of these fucktards leap out and throw a tantrum at me for not appeasing the status quo.
Like, showcase a dominant female? The futa fanatics+cock obsessed bitch at me for not "doing it right" and genderswapping the female.
Showcase a non-loli female? Get accused of kink shaming and discriminating against futa cuz I COULD have had a futa in there instead, but as I didn't, that means I am directly insulting and opposing their fetish.

And what I want is for people to put equal, or at least similar effort into their art. Not the current situation where you can be utterly useless in female genitalia, and HAVE to be competent at male. Where are you are NOT allowed to be utterly useless at male genitalia, and competent, or even great at female. Without getting swarmed by the "nobody cares" gang, that despite their name, cares a SHITTON about the anatomy. But only as long it doesn't meet their exact standards.

And it is possible I am too mean. But it is fully justified. Perhaps not to all I snap at. But comparing over the years, and the overall treatment in the fandom, I am honestly restrained compared to what would be accepted for me to do comparatively.



And in case I sounded angry in this DO KNOW: It wasn't towards you. I just have adapted a pretty massive aggressive tone due to the vast amount of hypocrisy and double moral in this, and several other fandoms. So do know that at least 85 % of those I lash out towards, are fully deserving of all the harshness. I do misfire at times, I will admit that.
But, just to leave on a note: You can tell who's on the right side, when dozens of these hacks have banded together, and have bribed numerous sites and/or corrupt admins to do their bidding. Like, how on FA, it is now illegal to point out people that are ex: art thieves, tracing, or that just simply lies in their advertisement or accepts payments for commissions in advance, and doesn't deliver on any of them. That has now become "harassment" to point out. You CANNOT say anything about any of these events. The only thing you are allowed to do, is leave a kind note on their userpage, so that they may delete it if they don't want it shown, that you'd like for them to ex: stop stealing your art, and claiming it as their own. As FA believes in self-regulation. Just like Derpi and e621, except theirs are in a "let the admins make up the rules as they go. A picture not your fetish? And from a non-popufur? They have full right to just delete it. As, like we all know: Self-regulation is totes the way to go. Since those that break the rules, will obviously be the most keen to uphold the law. So, for now. If you find someone breaking any rule on FA, all you're allowed to do aside from a polite userpage shout, is to file a complaint. That may or may not get resolved within a week. But like, what harm could possibly be done during that's under investigation?

(Holy shit you wrote a lot ^^;))

I've never seen artists who've talked about their fans like that, neither have I ever seen artists scamming their customers.

What part of FA were you hanging around with >.>

I never knew that people could treat their own fans like that :< it's disgusting. It really is.

And the self regulation stuff is another FA flaw -n- they've been fucking up recently and a lot of people have been leaving the site since the hacking incident. How could something like that be illegal, that's very stupid of FA. But, FA is the biggest source of furry art and it's where almost all furry artists post. That's why alot still stick to it. (Including me). I still thing that making it illegal to expose people hurting this website and other artists is bullshit.

People can scam and steal other people's art and FA just lets them, I hate that >:(

And I really find it disgusting how people could just scam others.

And I get it that you think it isn't fair that the penis is extremely detailed. Yet the vagina is just a line :/ I don't think it's fair either. In fact it should be the other way around :/

And I apologize for accusing you of forcing your fetish/style onto others, it was a false accusation on my part and I deeply apologize for that.

And about the "opposing fetish thing" I think some people are just really dumb >:/ that's like accusing an artist that draws a guy and a girl Anthro cuddling and accusing them of being against gay art. It's very stupid.

(I apologize for such a short reply to your very long reply, I just got back from work and I have a pounding headache, and I can't think straight. It's from the noise of a party right next to my building :( ))

But yeah, thank you for elaborating your point to me satch, i understand much clearer about how you feel.

And it's ok, I know you weren't mad at me, you were just making sure to get your point across.
We don't hate eachother or we don't wish the other person bad luck.

This was just a civil argument that ended peacefully :)

(Again I'm sorry for the short reply) I wish you good luck, ma'am. And I look forward to seeing more messy stuff in the future :3

Kinda my thing xD
Most people just give up either cuz they can't keep up with me, or as they can't counter any of my points... though, doesn't stop many of them from going "YOUR MOM! ... nailed it..." xD

There's a lot of them. Most of them tend to do it on the side. But some just brazenly do it on their submissions. Could chuck you the names over PM if you want.

And the bad parts xP You see, if you just bow your head and don't upset the status quo, you never run into it...

And yupp. It is. What I find even worse is how the fans support it. And only get upset on anyone that exposes it. As, "they were happier not knowing".

And yeah, it's just purely retarded. They were worried that people hurt the feelings of the hacks/art thieves, so they implemented that system, allegedly.
You can as said: only report them to the admins. You're not allowed to do anything else. Cuz that would be harassment.

And well, they "let them" to a degree. They can still be reported and taken down that way. But yeah, you're not allowed to intervene in any other way.

Yeah... my biggest peeve with it, is the people that blatantly scam others often get suuuuuper pissed if they ever are tricked or inconvenienced. They really have this toddler egocentrism that everything is about them.

I'd prefer a happy medium. But, tbh, at this point: We could need more "other way around", only downside is that most ppl would still be to thick to draw the connection.

Eh, it's fine. It's kinda the false directive the hack+scam artists have pushed for. It's one of the oldest trick in the book: Get the "peasants" to squabble among themselves or against something else, rather than focus on what's actually causing the problems.

And it is. Yet, like with most of the other bs in this fandom: People just go "What? What?" seemingly either ignorant or oblivious to how their statement is contradictory.

(Eh, long as you somewhat address the points xP)

Glad to hear it made sense. That's not my strong suit xD

I make sure to be specific if I AM mad on someone, as then I call them out directly by name or reference xP

And I guess it can be called that haha.

(And cheers. I'll do my best to keep diversifying the fandom. I am still super amused to having single handedly contributed more new fetishes and "world first" than the entire popufur collection on FA combined every year for the last 5 years xD And them, and their white knights super butthurtedly trying to dismiss it as me "just gloating", when they literally almost try to make it a national holiday whenever they come up with something marginally less overused, or draws a new character like they've drawn every other character they've done xD ... then again, one of them actually managed to make "international genderswap and mock Twilight for being a female day...")

No thank you x3 I don't wanna know their names

And thank you for this discussion ^w^ I fairly enjoyed it (in a way)

Also, I suggest you add all that info you told me into your journal, so people could understand your point in more detail. :)

(Well, like they say, it takes one person to make a difference ^u^)

Eh, most people don't read it anyhow.

They just get triggered and start a shitstorm because they can't beat me when it comes to the substance xD

I was picky when I chose an artist for my ref sheet for this very reason. I want my vag to at least look like a damn vag!

I know the feel. It's just so stupid how this has become an accepted norm.
Just, take ANY other profession in the world, and this would just come off as utterly retarded that no-one would find acceptable.
Like, if you'd go to a mechanic and they charge you 100 $, then goes "Uh... I dunno how to fix a car! I've only worked on bikes before! But I'll gladly take your money for attempting to fix it." or a tattoo artist going "Durr... you wanted a what? Sorry, I only draw the name "KIM" in times new roman when it comes to names." or a catering firm that shows up with only instant noodles going "What? You asked for Asian food." and people somehow just nods and goes "This is fine!"