...except they do benefit, from all the products that come about from forced labor in prisons. Not to mention the majority of correctional officers are white, and the more inmates there are, the more guards that are needed...thus, higher rates of imprisonment = more jobs for white people.

More jobs available for anyone, actually. Visible minorities would be prioritized as prison guards; the Canadian government and the provincial governments are equal opportunity employers, meaning they will prioritize qualified people of colour.

The more inmates and guards, the more funding is needed. If people are en masse unjustly imprisoned, it will affect the general public in some capacity, whether it's cuts to other services to fund the rising prison costs, or increased taxation.


"...except they do benefit, from all the products that come about from forced labor in prisons."

I don't think Canadian prisons produce anything but sadness.

I guess you're the person who made the original comment? If so, were you specifying that you were talking specifically about Canadian prisons? And if so, what exactly do you know about your prison system? Is it privatized at all? The fact that you say "I don't think" about something hints that you haven't actually done research.

Having said all that, my comment was about American prison systems, so your arguments are largely irrelevant to my comment because of that.

Yes, I made the comment.


"If so, were you specifying that you were talking specifically about Canadian prisons?"

I'd made it clear several times I was Canadian, and I rejected Jive's previous United States examples for that reason. Judge for yourself. Full context here: http://www.furaffinity.net/view/22287057/


"And if so, what exactly do you know about your prison system? Is it privatized at all?"

No. Canadian prisons are public. Some services in Ontario prisons, like laundry, are done by private contractors, but the prisons are public and not intended for profit.


"The fact that you say "I don't think" about something hints that you haven't actually done research."

I'd leave room to be wrong, but I'm almost completely sure penal labour does not occur in Canadian prisons. I'm 99% sure consumer goods are not made, and 80% sure penal labour isn't used. I've looked and found nothing to indicate our prisons use penal labour, but I'm okay being wrong.

That being said, I think penal labour in the United States hurts the general American public more than it benefits them. While the prisoner is forced to perform a job at criminally low pay, that job is now unavailable to the general public who could negotiate for higher pay. Using prison labour provides manufacturers with a cheap alternative to the labour force, and it undermines efforts to give Americans decent wages.

It only seems to hurt the general American public under the assumption that the labor forced on inmates would become actual feasible jobs for most Americans otherwise, but that's a rather ridiculous notion. Such labor would likely be outsourced like most other production labor is.

As for the context you linked to, you do benefit from being white in a racist society, in that you are automatically afforded a certain level of respect by others that is not afforded to non-whites. You've taken "benefit" to mean "my life is improved by this" but what it actually means is you have an advantage. That advantage is only apparent if you listen to and understand the experiences of others different from you.

thank you for explaining that succinctly. i am not good at making short points without losing my temper, and your description of it is a lot less verbose and hard to grasp than mine. much appreciated.

No problem. Funny enough, I used to not be very good at it either...but anymore I just don't have the energy to even function half the time, much less deal with bullshit. So if I do want to make a point, I try to be as succinct as possible so I can conserve what little energy I do have. :T

lord help me, i just don't have the patience to keep trying after a point.

"As for the context you linked to, you do benefit from being white in a racist society, in that you are automatically afforded a certain level of respect by others that is not afforded to non-whites."

I don't think that's the case.


"You've taken "benefit" to mean "my life is improved by this" but what it actually means is you have an advantage."

Here's how I see that: Benefit implies improvement; advantage implies opportunity. When I see, "all white people benefit from racism," I am seeing, "all white people prosper from racism." Do not all white people prosper from racism, then?


"That advantage is only apparent if you listen to and understand the experiences of others different from you."

I do listen. I try to understand. But minority Canadians are not of one mind on these issues, and contemporary issues on racism are amorphous and hard to identify. Most people are also fairly cagey on this topic and don't want to talk about it. It's a personal subject, and challenging people on it can make people upset. But I'm not willing to capitulate on things. I need a good explanation.

"Benefit implies improvement" Yeah, no: http://www.dictionary.com/browse/benefit?s=t "Benefit" has multiple definitions, most of which are similar, but still different. As I said, I know how you were reading it, and as I also said, when people say "benefit" in this context, they are referring to an advantage. (Also, improvement =/= prosper either, so that's just stretching it.)

I'm not talking about listening to people's opinions of issues (although that is important in its own right), I'm talking about listening to lived experiences and realizing that there are some things that other people go through that you as a white person just won't have to deal with. And "listening to lived experiences" does not necessarily mean going out and engaging random people. A lot of people publish such stories freely on blogs, forums, and comments; all you have to do is look for them.

"I'm talking about listening to lived experiences and realizing that there are some things that other people go through that you as a white person just won't have to deal with."

Of course there are things others go through that I will not. Horrible things. Entire communities here are devastated by historical atrocities that continue to affect them into the present.

fucking shit i had an argument the other day similar to this like, why do white people think theyre unprivileged? like this guy tried to tell me that reverse racism is real bc there are homeless white people. like, ????? sorry buddy try again

The prison system in the US is a multi-billion dollar for-profit private industry which preys on some of the most vulnerable and marginalized members of society. This person is either willfully ignorant or simply doesn't give a shit.

Neither. I'm not American.

Then consider yourself fortunate to not be a target minority living in the US. Count your blessings every day, mon ami, that these things do not directly affect you or your loved ones.

Okay. Thank you. I will. I hope the American penal system undergoes some sweeping reform.

Miigwech gayegiin.

Until corporations like Corrections Corp of America, GEO Group, and Management and Training Corp are no longer profitable (~$5 billion in net profits annually) and their stocks are no longer traded on the NYSE and NASDAQ, and their lobbyists are driven out of Washington, very little will change.

In light of the new Trump administration, I don't expect to see these types of reform happening any time soon.

Wubalubadubdub.

The American prison industry is unconscionable. I completely agree. And I also doubt there will be any reform soon.

okay, wow, just. whoa. do not reply to native languages with gibberish please. it's not clever. it's insulting.

http://www.urbandictionary.com/defi.....wubalubadubdub

i watch the show. it's still gibberish. it's inappropriate.

We better inform the writers.

https://salsaspeaks.files.wordpress.....=426&h=224

Like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipe.....gle_obtuse.png

point being, the inappropriateness was not with the writers of that joke but with you for using it as a response to a very important and serious discussion of racism
but yanno, yeah, good joke

Oh. Well, I think the very important and serious discussion of racism will just have to tough it out. If Tadg was bothered, that would be a different story. Tadg is a person I owe a certain modicum of respect. I will apologize if he thinks it was a jab at him using a native thank you. But I'll make fun of the American penal system all day.

you mention respect, but does it not feel disrespectful to respond to a language that has been and is still under assault and very real attempts to destroy it and the peoples who speak it with a nonsensical and non-applicable cartoon catchphrase? because it does to me.

"tough it out" meaning what exactly? your response was simply inappropriate. i asked that you refrain. what, exactly, is your objection? or is this more of that "listening to experiences" while disregarding my actual words thing?

Yes.

As I said before, try to understand just because I mentioned an impact prison has on the public, I'm not invalidating the severity of prison on individuals. Of course prison ruins lives. It can severely limit future opportunities for the imprisoned person and they waste years of their life.


"why do white folks want to be oppressed so bad?"

Pft.

you drew an equivalence that does not exist. your taxes are not in any way comparable to prison time. by mentioning them in a conversation about oppression and privilege, you are derailing.

"your taxes are not in any way comparable to prison time."

Never said they were. Not even once. Re-read the post. The public pays for incarcerations therefore unjust incarcerations based on race do not benefit the general public. Agree or disagree, it's not offensive. It does not invalidate the suffering of the prisoner. It does not attempt to compare itself to the suffering of the prisoner.


"by mentioning them in a conversation about oppression and privilege, you are derailing."

We've certainly gone off the rails, anyway.

unjust incarceration is WORSE than paying taxes.
so being in a position to go to jail is WORSE than being in a position of NOT going to jail.
this isn't that hard to understand.

"unjust incarceration is WORSE than paying taxes."

Well, duh.

also, please learn the definition of derailing in this context. you are guilty of it. not me.