I second this entirely, a no tolerance policy is the only way to deal with stuff like bigotry and hatred.

Yup - indeed. We can't be all mealy-mouthed - "Oh they have a right to their opinoin". They can have their opinion somewhere else. It's not welcome here.

This fandom is your fandom too. You're allowed to take a stance.

Thank you.

The more who speak out, the louder the message.

Those who are into uniforms and nazi fetish stuff = fine

Those who actually believe nazi ideals = please die. Discord and many other sites and businesses have taken a stand. FA should be no different, at least I'd hope.

Even the Nazi fetish stuff needs to go. That's how this shit got in the fandom to begin with. The Nazifurs of the early 2000s fetishized the uniforms and liked to mock Nazi thought. But then people kept joining who didn't get that it was a joke, and took it seriously. Today, modern Nazifurs appear to be actually espousing that creed - and be it a troll or in earnest, that shit has to stop.

You are absolutely right, I too myself think the uniform itself is kinda nice but I cannot use it not even my fursona because of what it represents.

I'll be dead honest - the uniform is sexy. Hugo Boss did some good work.

But it's been forever associated with Evil. Tainted with the blood of millions.

This is a dark path towards banning all fetishes. As much as I'd like to see it happen and end there, if it did it won't and it probably won't in the first place. Unless displaying the symbol and all becomes illegal widespread like it is in germany right now it's likely to never happen. Banning babyfurs was fine since that's widely illegal in most 1st world countries (wish FA would be a bit more strict in sfw babyfur stuff that's clearly meant to be sexualized), but it just won't work for nazi uniforms.

The people joining and taking it seriously should be found out and banned outright though, end of that story.

When a fetish is intrinsically linked to the systematic and intentional deaths of millions of people and has been synonymous with "evil" for about 70s years, then those who participate it should be worried.

I reject slippery slope arguments.

"That's how this shit got in the fandom to begin with."

I'd say that Marxist ideology making it a bad thing to be white, straight, cis and male has a lot bigger to do with the growth of Nazis, both in and out of the fandom. It's a shitty ideology, but so is making someone hate himself because of things he couldn't help about the way he was born any more than any of the rest of us.

Their behavior is wrong, but I DO get why they've been pushed that way. We HAVE to depolarize things.

...nothing you said has anything to do with what I was talking about, and is directly contradicted by how the Nazifurs actually grew in the fandom.

Considering how the alt-right grew OUTSIDE the fandom, I don't see how. Unless you think the fandom exists in a bubble unaffected by the world outside the fandom.

...which it isn't.

Except I'm talking about stuff prior the rise of the Alt-Right, going back to the late 90s and early 2000s.

I've always fully understood that the uniform fetish aspect is often separate from any ideological similarity. However, I have to ask, because I've never fully known: does it specifically have to be that uniform? Is it impossible for other uniforms to be sexy in the same way? Could a more obscure, or less ideologically terrible uniform from history not serve the same purpose? Could a purely fictional design that was never actually used anywhere in the real world not serve the same purpose? Because, honestly, if the latter one there suffices, I would think that of all fandoms in the world, this one is creative enough to come up with a sufficient uniform design for fetish purposes that doesn't have any baggage attached to it.

I have no idea, I'm just stating the fetish, I don't actually have it. I actually find most uniforms hideous. It's just in this fandom there's a fine line between having a fetish and actually believing ideals.

Honestly, you cannot be a patriot and a nazi. We had a war deciding this. The whole world was involved. But now the world is meant to have changed it's mind? I don't fucking think so! Nazis out!

I see plenty of people flying the flag of the Southern Treason too.

Heritage not Hate. Heritage of what? The Civil War where the South decided that the North was going to use the Federal Government to take away their slaves when the South lost a free election? They knew that was what the North was going to do, because thy'd been using the Federal Government to impose enforcing slavery upon the North for decades.

Or was it the recent revival, when the KKK and white nationalists of the South decided to pull the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virignia out as a symbol to rally their forces in opposition to integration and the Civil Rights Movement?

Fuck that.

Evil is evil and we should not celebrate evil. Move all those fucking statues and flags to a museum of history, because they belong in the past and not our present. Do it before they get destroyed by those who see them as the fucking evil they are.

Hate just needs to be stamped out in all its forms. But then we're hating hate which is weird and it's our hate for hate that drives us to make a better world. I guess it would be an end justifys the means situation if you fight fire with fire in a way. Plus, peaceful hate beats violent hate. Trouble is their hate is turning our hate violent and then they turn it on us like we're the bad guys.

It's a fucked up situation. Hate is always bad and needs to be stopped in all its forms. Because it just breeds hate.

Peaceful hate does not beat violent hate. Peaceful protests only work in two situations - when the opposition has a sense of shame, or when the alternative to working with your peaceful protests is total violence.

Consider "Letter from a Birmingham Jail".

And once again - claiming that I'm being intolerant of other people's opinions is a logical fallacy when their ideas are intolerance. I think that trickle down economics are idiotic, yet I don't seek to cast out those who espouse it.

The only time this is appropriate is when the "idea" involved is an attack upon someone else, or a defense of an attack. Hating Nazis is not the equivalent of hating Jews or Blacks or the disabled.

"The Civil War where the South decided that the North was going to use the Federal Government to take away their slaves when the South lost a free election? They knew that was what the North was going to do, because thy'd been using the Federal Government to impose enforcing slavery upon the North for decades."

You're massively oversimplifying the cause and and complexity of the Civil War. Yes, slavery was a primary reason for it (and I can't believe I'm going to have to say this, but OBVIOUSLY slavery was wrong and bad), but that doesn't dismiss the fact that a major factor in why the states seceded was due to wanting more regional control over making laws instead of it being centralized in the national government. Also, Lincoln had ZERO actual intention to free any slaves until the war BECAUSE he knew that it would basically cause a rip; it's pretty well agreed South Carolina's secession was a far bigger contributor to the freeing of black slaves than any intention the North had before the CSA became a thing.

"Or was it the recent revival, when the KKK and white nationalists of the South decided to pull the Battle Flag of the Army of Northern Virignia out as a symbol to rally their forces in opposition to integration and the Civil Rights Movement?"

Wow, wonder why this happened. It can't be the hyper-policing of thought and speech as well as the demonization of "majority" identities via Marxist ideologies that did this, could it?

Look, I think Southern Pride is a dumb thing too, but most people that have it seem to attribute it to this ideal that never existed, not to what was there in real life. And like it or not, people are allowed to be racist. It's an opinion, and a shitty one, but as long as they're not breaking the law by discriminating, they can think whatever they want.

And destroying history is a great way to keep this replaying. I agree with the idea of moving them to museums, but let's stop teaching history as "good vs. evil". The writers of history are always the victors, and it's funny how they leave things out like the Japanese internment.

History is complex and messy, just like people. I think it's better to try to find out why people come to these extremist ideas instead of just writing them off with the intention of killing them. Otherwise, we're just repeating history all over.

...okay, so you're not here to have an actual discussion. Got it.

How was that not wanting to have a discussion?

People are stupid. By the looks of this journal it is a echo chamber. Irony is lost when free-thinkers and 'liberals' like this guy want to completely shut down Nazism when his attitude replicates the very definition of Nazism itself to 'Suppress oppression and criticism'.

"Wow, wonder why this happened. It can't be the hyper-policing of thought and speech as well as the demonization of "majority" identities via Marxist ideologies that did this, could it?"

That's proof right there. Because the statues and banners celebrating the South in the Civil War date to the implementation of the Jim Crow laws of the early 1910s or the reaction to the Civil Rights Movement of the 1950s and 60s.

Neither had anything to do with "demonization of majority identities via Marxist ideologies". That's a load of bullcrap.

Anyone who ignores or tries to hand-wave the facts of the origin of the "Lost Cause" are not looking to have an honest debate.

Well here's the thing. I don't think he was talking about then, he was talking about the state of things now. Also as a black man, these statues of the confederate soldiers and generals do not bother me one bit. I am not sure how taking these down will actually fix anything at all. To be honest all you are doing is legitimizing these 'neo-Nazis', 'white supremacists' ideas. Normally i wouldn't agree at all with Donald Trump and it personally sucks to say it. He makes a good point though, when does it all stop. Will George Washington and Thomas Jefferson statues be taken down next because they owned slaves? Taking down the statues doesn't make everything about the Civil War disappear all it does is bring more attention to the issue. Also when will it be that the ideas your are peddling now become the next target of hate from the people you claim support you. Will you be up in arms about it? Will you just sit there and let them have their way? All I know is; hate breeds more hate, and the way you want to do things will only make things much worse before they get better.

"I don't think he was talking about then, he was talking about the state of things now. "

He was responding to my statement talking about the reason for the statues being put up.

"when does it all stop."

Slippery slope argument. Washington and Jefferson did not glorify slavery, nor did they revolt because of it.

"Also when will it be that the ideas your are peddling now become the next target of hate "

Please explain where my ideas involve the intentional and planned death of people, or their exclusion based upon their race, religion, gender, or gender preference.

I think that Supply Side Economics is harmful to economies and our nation. I don't call for the expulsion of those who advocate it. You've made a false dilemma here.

"All I know is; hate breeds more hate, and the way you want to do things will only make things much worse before they get better."

You are making a false equivalence. I hate Nazis because they want me dead. Nazis hate me because I'm Jewish. Historical data shows that if given power, Nazis will seek my death.

One does not stop a bully by giving no resistance.

Well said, this is one of the well thought out comments in the journal and one of the most informed along with Azurex and Dragonwing. Definitely interesting reading both sides of the political spectrum. I'm not political and identify and identify as apolitical. But comments with well-thought our responses like this and does not include ad-hominems are always welcome. Something people should learn here.

Same thing

I'm not the punching type. I'm more of the speak to the people in authority and explain why they should be banned.

Like happend with Furrydelphia.

What FD did is great. If only many other cons followed through.

Given enough pressure, they will.

You have your muzzle full uff truth! I totally concur with you

More people need to say it. Far too long people have been holding back and staying silent, not wanting to cause a scene or make waves. After all, nobody really agrees with this stuff, yeah?

Turns out, silence is consent and encouragement. Speak up.

I don't even know what's going on lately but speak the truth, brother!

Nazis and White Supremacist groups held a rally 4 hours away from my home. They were ordered to disperse, and decided to take it on a march. There was a counter protest ordered to disperse as well. One Nazi-wannabe decided to use his car to express his opinions. 19 people injured, one woman dead.

Also it turns out that Nazifur/Altfurry people were behind Califur being hit with a 26,000 security charge with false threats and complaints. This is in addition to being the root cause of RMFC dying, and they may have been behind the various actions and complaints that helped kill Rainfurrest.

The fandom is under attack from the inside. The time to speak up is now.

Holy crap really? I didn't even know there were furs out there like that...the heck..

Yup. You can read all about it on dogpatch.press when the site comes back up. Their twitter has some info https://twitter.com/DogpatchPress .

Yeah, there's people who are posting and acting on this stuff. Some are doing it as a joke or a troll, some are doign it because they believe it, but both groups are acting and talking as if they believe so there's no functional difference.

I didn't even know RMFC and Rainfurrest was gone...Thats a huge disappointment. I was hoping to go at one point seeing as some art that Garrou and I did together was added into the RMFC catalog a few years back...


That really...really blows big time.

Yup. RMFC's fall was a big this a few months back, especially since it turns out to be mainly the fault of the Altfurry and Furry Raider types.

And then they also swatted Califur causing about $26,000 in damages to the convention.

thats bullshit...what is the point even? Is it just to cause despair for the sake of the despair?

I don't understand nor do I pretend to. I can only guess that it's trying to be powerful and make some sort of impact because they feel they are adrift and different. Either that or they are bullies and like making people feel pain or hurt simply because they can.

Most likely both reasons, from the sounds of it. But then again, the conventions can always move and if people have to pay more for security, then so be it.

Not many cons can take a 26 thousand dollar security fee. If I had to pay that for starting up a con, I couldn't.

Yeah, thats a good point...that just really pisses me off though...

Adolf Hitler is dead, we killed him back in the 1950s, the war has ended, it's time to stop with this KKK, white power, and Nazi/Neo Nazi bullshit. I'm getting really fucking sick and tired of hearing the same old shit over and over again, about how racist whites wanna kick out other different races from the US. Fuck them up the ass until they fucking bleed. We DO NOT need that shit anymore. Even in comedy, it's starting to become a bit racist. This shit needs to stop, NOW.

We fought it once. Now that we know what the signs are, we should be more accepting about stopping it now, before it gets as far as it has.

Either way - speak up. Make your opinion known. Silence will be taken as consent by these assholes.

The reasoning for allowing opponents to "live-and-let-live' is that just because you think something is wrong, doesn't mean it shouldn't be allowed to be said.

If you don't believe of freedom of speech for your enemies then you don't believe in it at all. Let their arguments be judged on their merit. I will protect someone's right to speak their mind until they resort to violence

Because totally more political violence and call to war with people you disagree with is what we need, yeah totally.

And keep in mind im a right leaning libertarian, i actually believe in freedom of speech and willing to defend to the death someones right to say what they want.

Plus there have been WAYYYY more violent protests by the antifa and antifa fur supporters.

ONE WOMAN IS FUCKING DEAD YOU ASS.

A WOMAN HAS DIED.

KILLED BY A NAZI FUCK.

Yeah - you can fucking get right the fuck out of my fucking fandom, you Nazi-enabler.

Oh fuck off with your obnoxious handwringing. The facists want me dead because I'm a gay Jewish man. The Antifa want to beat the fascists because the fascists want me dead.

There is no discussion to be had on the merits of genocide, and the fact you think there are "Far Left Nazis" means you do not intend to have a reasonable discussion on the matter. Get the fuck out.

I like the back peddling that it was just a typo. 1: How do you typo right into left, and 2: it's called proofreading. This isn't a chatroom, you can take a minute to verify you are typing what you mean so no one is confused.

Oh wow. Talk about a callout journal.

Also the "Something wrong with your brain" line was literally his own words thrown back at him in the PM. Lovely.

"Oh wow. Talk about a callout journal. "

Er, well you did call him out in the comments after he decided to hide his posts...

Yes, called out for hiding all their comments, leaving no evidence behind on what they said. Honestly, that's a pretty lame move to make.

Exactly. They hid what they said, not Summercat. Because they know what they said was messed up or could look bad for them. Its after that they make a call out journal for Summer and play victim

Man. Reading more of this... if what I said to him in the journal was emotional shitslinging, this guy has a very thin skin.

Communism is a merit for kill those who do not surrender the means of production.

I notice you didn't mention the Jewish part. That's kind of important.

The rest of your post is debunked hysterical nonsense. No point in keeping you around.

Also:

"The gay agenda that has made it ok to teach kids in school how to sodomize themselves with bananas and shit, and how to have sex f/f, the gay agenda that whines that their videos about how to perform gay sex got age restricted so that anyone under 5 years old can't see them. "

Really, Balgias?

In the Furry Fandom, you're taking an anti-gay stance? The Furry Fandom was built upon acceptance - but it has to be mutually acceptance. Since you don't accept gays, I don't have to accept you.

Sorry buddy, you've been played, he's right. You care about one woman being killed yet you side with an ideology that will kill millions if it reaches endgame.

What does this have to do with Fascists having no place in our fandom? Do try to stay on topic.

Yeah that line of thought can fuck off.

They espouse racial purity and white superiority. I'm a gay Jewish man. Their opinions say I should die.

That's not something that gets respected. They don't get a fucking seat at the table. I'll not tolerate any handwringing "BUT THEIR OPINIONS" - they can have their fucking opinions somewhere else, I'll not fucking tolerate it here.

But glad to see that there are those who think that Nazisim is an opinion that I, a Jewish man, should tolerate. Thanks for your input.

You support a thing worse than nazism, or something just as worse if you're a commie, they are both murderous gangs that hate freedom, but just soo you know, if comes to that battle, the commies -will- lose.

I feel that in this fandom, most people making statements for or against Nazis only do it for attention. They either feed off the hate they get from being pro Nazi, or they feed off the overwhelming support from those who oppose it. In the real world, Nazis are a real problem, because a lot of non furry Nazis are... you know... actual Nazis. Surely some furries are actual Nazis, and they'll be found out, and run out if people decide to do so. Why police the acts of a few furry posers, when you can fight the real problem?

In other words, lets get rid of the Nazis, but lets do it in the real world first.

Nazifurs in the fandom are part of the larger problem - and a problem in of itself. They are not a fake problem, especially when they have swatted cons and caused real-world damages.

Kenzo, you know me. You think I do this for attention? I'm saying this because I'm pissed off and tired of seeing this shit.

It needs to be said everywhere, and if you can't bring yourself to say that Nazis should not be tolerated in the Furry Fandom - consider that. Consider that closely.

I understand you, and I know you care, but don't interpret me not just saying "fuck Nazis, i totally agree" and then moving on like some people are doing in the comments as me being some type of Nazi sympathizer. I try to be a bit more complex than that, and I try to explain how I really feel about this. You should know I agree with you in the end, it's just that what I say isn't always an echo to what you say. I'm also not going to respond to the person below me, because in the question it frames me as a sympathizer, I have no energy for long winded debates trying to prove my innocence when I've already got it.

All you have to say is "Fuck Nazis, they don't belong here".

You don't need to do any handwringing or saying "Well we should do X first".

"Fuck nazis, they don't belong here." And just keep saying it when people go "But we should listen to them first!"

As  Halfeb_the_Dingo said elsewhere, we did that once, in the 40s. We then executed them for warcrimes.

The problem is that I used to be able to tell "American Conservative" stances from white supremicist or Nazi standpoints.

Used to.

As I've said before, I reserve this action solely for that group. I think that Supply-Side economics is a stupid concept that does not has not and will not work, but I'm not going to say "Get the fuck out of my fandom and my country" to them.

When people start going on racist rants and start hitting all the old White Citizen Council dogwhistles? That's when I get angry and tell them to get out.

Politically speaking, they fall on the right wing and have been heavily and historical associated with conservatism in the US. Barry Goldwater courted and embraced anti-integration and anti-Civil Rights Movement groups during his primary campaign for the Republican nomination.

You can splice it how you want, but it's been well associated on the right, and Collectivism vs Individualism is not on the American Right-Left scale.

http://www.king5.com/news/wsu-colle.....ille/464354903

*cough*

That said, no - it's not being misaimed in this situation.

Then your objection is noted and filed, with no changes needed to what I'm saying.

I disgree with just about every Republican policy but I'm not going to run people out on a rail because they espouse them. Unless it's one of the policies rooted in anti-gay/immigrant/female/minority bigotry.

Well, I'm a bit of a Social Liberal.

Yes, I can tolerate any insane fetish or whatever else furries do but not the fucking Nazi stuff. Same if I were to ever see anything about the KKK or ISIS (but fortunately I haven't seen those yet).

We're seeing a lot of the same rhetoric from the KKK and old White Citizen Councils in the AltFurry/AltRight stuff as well.

I'm sure those are going on too.
Thankfully, I have avoided those.

Heil Tolerance! Heil ze Anti-Nazi Regime!

Sorry, I couldn't resist.

And what is your point, exactly? Could you explain your comment?

I'm making fun of the nazis.

I'm not following. Could you elaborate how you are making fun of the nazis?

I don't know, I just woke up, please excuse my morning ramblings.

I'm not trying to be offensive (to anyone but nazis), if that's what you're wondering.

Sorry, I'm on edge. The way your post was worded could be taken as an attack upon my post and stance and calling me the real nazi. Which is of course totally ridiculous.

No worries, I'm used to being blocked, so this is actually a fucking godsend that I managed to avoid getting blocked.

I think what I was trying to do was mocking nazis for all their "heil"-ing of "Mein Führer, Herr Adolf Hitler" while simultaneously stating my intent to side with the Anti-Nazi Party. The only nazi I support is a dead nazi, if you catch my drift.

If this is an example of what you normally try to do, I see why you thought you'd be blocked. Work on your delivery; it sucks so much I'd assume you were a Dominos driver that hated his job.

I'm trying, I really am, but I missed out on nearly 10 years of social interaction due to bullying in school, and there's no classes for this kind of thing, so I have absolutely no idea how I'm supposed to be interacting with people.

Learn quickly. We're not really obligated - and sometimes not in the mood - to be kind and understanding of this sort of thing.

Here's a story for yah, I was attending a con a few years back and as I stood in line for attendee badges I saw some dressed in a nazi unifom, no fur suit just the uniform, and it wasn't getting any second glances but I used to wear this costume police badge that I guess was a bit too real and that was getting staff members to do a double take, nothing else police related just a badge.

*facepalm*

Makes one wonder the state of things when someone questions a fake police badge over a full nazi officers uniform

I second this. This is a general thing not only in the fandom. Peace and tolerance ;)

So long as people don't overtolerate and tolerate that which does not extend tolerance back.

To make myself clear. I dont like nazisism. As a german I know pretty well about our history and this should never never repeat again! Why cant we be all be just friendly to each other. *hugs the otter*

In relation to an earlier comment chain: what the hell is an 'altfurry'?

AltFurry is a term for members of the furry fandom who ascribe to the crypto-fascist ideology of the Alt-Right. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alt-right

Given what I know of the alt-right, I find it amazing any of them would want to join a fandom known for being largely tolerant.

There's been no limit or gatekeeping or filter for who can join Furry.

But Furry has been built upon tolerance and acceptance of ideas. If someone's outlook of life is build upon intolerance and rejection of people, then they need to get going. Furry isn't for them.

Agreed.

it is actually a common recruiting tactic that began with the rise of the social internet in the 1990's. Nihilists like Nazis find largely apolitical fandom groups (like star trek or furry) and join in. They then force confrontation, push boundaries, and expound on their idiotic views. Because apolitical fandom groups tend to have people who don't spend time thinking about politics or philosophy heavily and the internet often seems "anonymous" these tactics help attract some people to their. It often also is highly destructive to the group but Nazis don't really care.

I've blocked and reported about 50 Nazis on social media over the years, and they deserve it.

This is more than just that, though. These people need to be given the boot.

I do not support the Nazi ideaology or their views; I find them to be revolting and completely unnaceptable. However as vile and despicable the tripe that spews from their mouth, I still believe they have a right to exist.

I would say that the most effective way of weaning them out is through education and continuing to be progressive as a society. Pure and simple. Inciting violence against them (e.g, 'Punch a Nazi') only fuels tensions and greatly increases the risk of conflict - They want this. (Have you seen how many of them are completely stocked up with ammo and weapons as if the apocalypse is near? It's terrifying.) Don't give it to them.

Continue to shame and demonize, but let them have their small echo chamber circles. The hope is that through education and social pressure, numbers will continue to dwindle as they did after WWII.

Mildly off-topic, given that your post didn't mention violence, but I s'pose if I had to spew my somewhat shakey opinion somewhere, it'd be in the comments section of a journal by a dude I talked to maybe once.

I give them the same right to exist they give me: None.

Agreed! GTFO!

We need to be more vocal about this, that these are ideas that are not tolerated or should be sympathized with.

I completely understand how they got here it is sort of a standard tactic for these carbuncles. Punk Music in the 1980's had to deal with them but in that case they were a lot more willing to use force to eject them.

Honestly its good for you and others to put these journals up and I appreciate you doing this.

And there are people who, in this journal, are defending them still. UGH.

We need to be more vocal about this.

I think the problem is one that is very old problem in American politics. Political Insinuation is the concept of a smaller group with unpopular views taking up the iconography and talking points of a more popular larger political group. Its a very old political tactic but it works extremely well in a two party political system where people tend to think if a dichotomy. Essentially they mimic certain key views like saying they're for "family values" or "small government" and then use the larger political group as a cover. The larger group will tend to think of them as kooky allies who want to help accomplish their goals and will then defend them or excuse more extreme behavior. Sometimes these extremists groups even believe some of what they parrot other times they don't. It is also a wonderful recruiting method as the us vs them thinking makes some people think these extremists like Nazis who agree with them on other things and are being "unfairly" attacked must clearly then be right.

Nazis and the KKK and many Supremacists groups use this tactic to avoid scrutiny or social isolation on a regular basis. The KKK used it for over a century to insinuate themselves into a power base. the Nazis and white supremacist movement have spent decades flitting from different sections of internet political thought to recruit and build support. The Nazis will even defend other people within the larger group and use wording to tie up the two so in this case disagreeing with a Conservative suddenly becomes analogues to wanting to eject Nazis. This is how you can have the 1930's Madison Square Nazi rally and the American Bund Society.


In other words of course people are defending them. They've fallen into the trap these deranged groups have set up for them. An Us vs Them mentality that says a person must be either a Leftist or a Rightist means they will defend those they see on their "side." Most Nazis and white supremacists are morons (clearly) but a few are smart enough to understand basic political maneuvering and most people have busy lives and cant spend time sitting down and critically picking apart this nonsense.

(Speaking as a law librarian who did some work compiling documents for a nonprofit law group in New Jersey for a legal reference guide on hate groups)

This is also how you get people going on and on about how the Nazis and KKK are really leftist groups when the truth is the Nazis aren't really left or right leaning their political nihilists who will attach to whatever ideas will give them the most influence and numbers. The Nazis are clearly unacceptable for some Rightists so they have to blame the "other side" when really politics is a bit more complicated then two vague sides and so is history.

No, someone told me I had to be more open minded. About Nazis.And wanted to redirect the topic to talking about Antifa, aren't they a big problem too?

So fuck the defenders. Defending Nazis is the same as being a Nazi at this point, in my book. There's nothing legitimate in the stance of "I think this person should be dead because of his race/gender/sexual preferences/nation of origin".

I don't disagree with you. I'm just pointing out how some people get into this mind set. As a pacifist I see people try intellectually bankrupt technique of "what about [other group]" well enough to know its a common diversion tactic. If that person wants to use Nazi talking points that is there right but it makes them look incredibly stupid.

Indeed it does make them look stupid.

But the defenders need to be kicked in the balls - figuratively if not literally - and given the same treatment the Nazis themselves need.

Thank you for hosting this journal. Respect.

As someone recently pointed out to me, why would you support two of the worst failures in history?

Liberal Redneck,yes?

Who me? Oh no, all American conservative.

No, I refer to https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yhY.....ature=youtu.be

We need to not allow the antifa people or the black lives matter people to be here and to fuck off as well. Need to get rid of the commie furs too. After all, whats good for the goose is good for the gander. And how about we get rid of those who blindly hate the president because thats what their leftist leaders want. After all, it is those same people who make it a point to attack anyone and everyone that doesn't agree with them.

Also, anyone that shouts how white people should die or be attacked needs to be removed, as they spout racism and hate left and right.

Great deflection bro.

Glad to know you want me gone from the fandom. Goodbye.

Finally a voice of reason in this biased sea.

Nazism in the fandom made me hang up my hat and walk away from about 90% of what I was doing previously.

It's..... really bad.

I can't say I expected this.... at all.

All I have to do is point at all the "Whataboutism" done by people who are ardently defending Nazis - be it directly or by trying to deflect. This rot is deep but thankfully not widespread.

It's infected many, I'm hoping it's not widespread. I wouldn't want others to suffer the same hardships.

Check above your comment. Some people I thought would be rational, aren't. *shrug*

I saw it. I've been aware of it. Like I said, it's infected many.

It was a concern I had back in 2004/5. I bought the explanation then.

I'm beginning to doubt the explanation.

Im sorry to say this but i feel like i need too... So.... having a paw print arm banned should be made to feel unwelcome.... but not *gets out list* vore, gore, murder, rape, child/cub porn, child/cub rape. and many many other things id rather not think about.... is? im sorry.... but when someone is refused entry to a con because his sona (which has NOTHING to do with his views even though he has clearly stated he doesn't like it as much as the next) has a paw print arm band... im drawing a line and taking a stand. anyone who SERIOUSLY thinks Nazism will make a come back... i dont even know. i myself, hate them as much as the next person. but i quite like their uniforms, i think they are well made and designed... so should i be made to feel unwelcome for my tastes in tailoring?

You've missed the point entirely.

You're telling me that there's nothing wrong with Nazi symbology? Get out.

"so should i be made to feel unwelcome for my tastes in tailoring?"

When the particular taste of tailoring is admiration for a group of people who intentionally sought out the industrial-scale murder of millions of people, yes. Get out.

Also, to answer something else:

"anyone who SERIOUSLY thinks Nazism will make a come back..."

We have people doing the salute and flying the flag proudly out in the open. Plenty of people shouting the rhetoric. It's trying to come back.

I laughed when I saw that my fetish was included in their "list".

You should see some of the stuff said in the next journal.

The nazi fur uniform thing isn't a fetish. It isn't fantasy. At it's core it is representative of facist, racist, homophobic and seriously awful hateful beliefs and that is what separates it from fetishes like vore, gore, etc. I'm not defending or touching the cub thing because that is also extremely heinous and is widely shunned and not tolerated in our fandom.

But the difference I don't think you get is that having a "nazi fur" character is representative of hateful rhetoric. Vore is a fantasy fetish based on extreme plays of dominance/submissiveness and sexual RP. There is a huge difference between the two. You could argue that someone has a "nazi fetish" and they are sexualizing the uniform for roleplay purposes... but the reality is that by doing that, they are perpetuating the problem and spreading hateful imagery around the internet (even if they do this unintentionally).

Actual Nazis shouldn't even be in the furry fandom, since the fandom does not represent and even goes totally against any or all concepts of racial and species purity. The furry fandom should be seen as totally abhorrent to anyone of that ilk.

If you're a Nazi, or any other racial supremacist, the furry fandom goes completely against any and everything your group believe in, and just being a part of this should be seen as compromising your values. If these beliefs are part of your religion, leave now, or you could find yourself being shagged by your religion's anti-deity, in the bowels of your religion's anti-paradise, under the flameberry trees, deep in an abyssal realm.

Hypothetical question for you, what do you think of the following statement:

I know that Furry has been tolerant of viewpoints and differing philosophies, but those who support - or pretend to support - Communism needs to be made unwelcome. They are doing damage to us as a fandom out of some perverse need to make an impact, even to the point of being negative.

This shit shouldn't be tolerated. Tolerance is, after all, a peace treaty - not a moral precept. I'm not obligated to tolerate the intolerant, because they are not tolerant of me. They do not abide by the rules, thus the rules don't apply to them.

If you support Communism or anti-fascism through the guise of antifa or anything related to those failed harmful cancerous ethos - get the fuck out of my fandom. You're not welcome.



Would you consider the above statement to be fair and reasonable? After all, communists have killed far more than nazis, done far more damage, committed purges of anyone who opposed them, thought differently or thought too much, were LGBT and other things. Some of the purges were so flawed that they even killed those who 'looked smart' anyone who wore glasses was purged.

Looking at the past strongly indicates that communism should not be accepted. And if we are forcing out nazism from the subculture, then we should also force out communism yes? As it is, frankly, much more dangerous than the nazis. Just in total number killed and total number destitute and destroyed due to the spread and longevity of it.

I want both sides of the political spectrum to fuck off. I'm proud of being a centrist