As mentioned before, I'm afraid I can't provide you monetary support for your art at present, but I understand how you want to make an honest living with the premium works you post on Patreon and the like. Plagiarism is one thing, but when these dregs of the internet go as far as to make money off the work they have stolen, it genuinely forces me to lose faith in this modern internet society of ours. I promise to keep an eye out for any pirate activity involving your art, and I will inform you of it accordingly.

I hope you enjoyed your Christmas, Blue, and wish you a Happy New Year. <3

Thanks a lot man! Not everyone needs to send money, their feedback and general support of my work is more than enough to help me :D

So the support you've given me is more than enough, and I'm very thankful for that. I'm sersiously doing this because I love drawing, but also because of people like you that truly like my work and that I can count with to be there whenever there's something new that I create to share :D

The people who want to support you won't be swayed by these pirate sites.

I'm convinced of that. But I appreciate to hear it too, thanks :)
I simply thought it was important to speak against it instead of pretending it's not happening.

What about e621?

I originally found you through them, and I noticed that you didn't mention them in the list of sites that are official.

Is not official, but I allowed for images to be posted in various other websites such as e621 as long as they use the watermarked versions and provide a link to find my galleries. What I'm against is for people to trick others into believing that they're are either the creators of the content, or try to gain money from work that doesn't belong to them.

You say they are sharing your Patreon content. Is your Patreon content made public for others to download? I've never used Patreon.

It's digital. If someone can download it, someone can upload it. Simple as that.

Only Patreon users who support me on a monthly basis should be able to access what I post there. And the truth is, the content I post as exclusive for patreon is so small in opposition to what can be found for free, that it's even more frustrating to take away the very few rewards my patrons should be getting. Maybe some people believe that I post tons of private pinups and other things in patreon, but that's far from the truth.

Hearing stuff like this makes me wonder if making a creator page on Patreon will be worth the effort even, though that will not likely stop me from at least trying. I'm on the opposite end of having said 'real life' jobs to wanting to earn a living with my creativity. I'll keep one regular job going as I'll need something stable as it builds up. I'm not looking to strike it rich either. Just do well enough to live decently and pay off my debts.

Everything in life comes with challenges. It's not the end of the world, but I believe it's important to speak against such things instead of pretending it doesn't happen.

I wonder why people often think that being an artist is not a "real job".

Because people think we spend all day looking at naked women/men, and all the work that goes into a piece is rarely seen by people at large, let alone understood. It's the same way people think working as a freelancer/for yourself/from home isn't a "real job". What it really comes down to though, is envy - people envy the ideal they have in their head of that situation, and they don't give, nor want to give, any thought to what the realty of the situation is.

If being an artist were so easy that it didn't count as a "real job", I think more people would be doing it, and those of us who already do would be rich. :P

I think one of the major problems is a lack of understanding what we actually do, like you already mentioned, but also that it's largely seen as a hobby. Funny thing is that I heard the same excuses back when I startet working in IT that artist still face today. A typical phrase was:"Why should we pay you? It's your hobby to work with computers. You should be glad you can work with us. You should do it for the fun."
I hear the same phrases today but with the words computer and art swapped.
It's like they think something doesn't qualify as a job just because it can be a hobby too.
I know someone who drives trucks in his free time because he really is into trucks and loves driving them now imagine people saying being a trucker is not a real job, of course they wouldn't. It's that double standard that drives most artists crazy, i guess.

That's definitely a part of it too, though I'd like to think anyone who would seriously use that to try to get out of paying you isn't someone you want to work with. :P God forbid someone actually enjoy their job sometimes, hahaha.. Even if you love what you do for a living, you still have to be able to put food ont he table. "You're paying for quality and years of experience I offer - you charge your clients for the same reason, correct?"

I once found a funny one panel comic, i think it was on https://clientsfromhell.net/, but Im not sure. It was a conversation with a client. It was basicaly like this:
Client: "Well, the logo looks good but why should I pay you for something that only took you 20 minutes to do?"
Artist: "Because it took me 10 years of studying to be able to do this in 20 minutes."
Pople often forget or simply don't know, how much hard work we put into this to actually become good. I hate when they think its "simply talent". Like in this comic https://twitter.com/SarahCAndersen/.....04157960421377

LOL!! Pretty much that~ The few times I've displayed my work I've gotten that "talent" or "gift from God" comment and I just thank them politely. I'm absolutely talented, I know that full well, but talent means nothing without hard work.

A similar conversation supposedly took place between Picasso and someone at a bar; copied from the internet:

The story goes that Picasso was sitting in a Paris café when an admirer approached and asked if he would do a quick sketch on a paper napkin. Picasso politely agreed, swiftly executed the work, and handed back the napkin — but not before asking for a rather significant amount of money. The admirer was shocked: “How can you ask for so much? It took you a minute to draw this!” “No”, Picasso replied, “It took me 40 years.”

Because so many who attempt to use it as a job have no skill or drive to improve themselves. They use psychological warfare to win their money and have no interest in actually being skilled/well-rounded.

That obviously doesn't apply here with BD, but I'm giving an answer to the question in general. They think that because many people who try to make money with art have no integrity or talent but still feel they should be able to make a living wage from their junk. :X

Honestly, I think that can be said about any job. I know that there exist peoples who sell themselves as IT experts just because they can turn on a computer and open a browser. And they do it the same way you describe. Still nobody would say that being an actual IT expert isn't a real job (nowadays at least). I bet it's the same in other areas too.

That lack of integrity these days really does worry me. x.x; I was taught such things (honesty, integrity, chivalry...) as a child, and it feels more like a liability than a positive character trait in today's societies. *sigh*

I'm super curious what these sites are. It was brought to my attention that some of my content will be on these sites and I want to take proper measures to rectify it. ; - ;

If you like I can send you a note with a link to the website that most recently caught my attention. You can try to search your artist name there if you want.

Generally speaking, the people who get your stuff from pirate sites were never going to pay you, and the people who pay you don't care that they can get your content from pirate sites. You can at least rest assured that while you're fighting this, the people who are supporting you and know about you are doing so for the right reasons - they love what you do just as much as you do~

That said, I hate this kind of shit. It's infuriating both as an artist and a businesswoman, and I'd really love to find a way to immediate get these sites taken down.. I imagine part of the problem is that you can't tell too well if a patreon is just looking to turn around and steal your art, y'know? Unless they're using nonsense e-mails...?

But at the same time, without the reward system, many people wouldn't pay anything. They want to feel like they're getting more than what others are, instead of being charitable for the sake of generalized support. It's interesting to look at this matter from the angle that Zerox shared below.

I think... the reason that rewards are so important, and why stuff like this happens, is because the money is coming from people who probably shouldn't be spending it. People who don't actually have the money to spare, etc. I know my budget is really tight, and I've occasionally put into Patreon just for rewards or short term gratification. So I kind of get that mentality. But I at least have the money sense to not over-spend and starve myself for intangible goods, heh. I think there's many people out there without that skill, and those are the ones that will end up fueling piracy sites. The question is, who is wrong?

Philosophically, intangible goods have little to no value (as in, digital copies of video games or artwork). Yes, there's the time taken to create them, but in the long term, they are wholly unnecessary to our survival. The emotional gains could be accomplished from other things, and many creative fields have roots in hobbyist origins. So is it right to charge for them in any way? Is it right to make people feel like they 'need' such items (You gotta play the newest game / have cable TV or you're not socially accepted!) and coax their limited funds from them? Again, I'm just speaking philosophically and to the journal as a whole.

I see many intangible goods these days that seem to exist for the sole purpose of depriving people of their money through addiction or entitlement, so it does worry me about the value that humans place on those things. You've always had the issue with say, the family of 7 on government income buying a 70" television for their shack of an apartment, but recent trends in digital content start to make things even worse than that. So if you take that money away, how do people with skill and talent get to indulge in their passions? I mean, I personally still enjoy seeing this fellow's artwork. And I think that's where it falls on those who are well off, have the basics of life covered, and have that extra money to spare. They are the ones who can put in $5-$50 to someone who they recognize as having skill and potential. So it's strange to me, overall, how the business model of luxury intangible goods has ended up.

(Anyway, don't mind this ramble, it's just an attempt to look at the topic from a few different perspectives. :3)

This is quite a reply! I have two quotes for you in return:

"Piracy is a distribution problem" - You won't get rid of piracy entirely, but a lot of it is because the right customers (those who are able and willing to pay) don't have an easy pathway to a purchase, whether that's payment processing or awareness of the product and who is actually selling it/where to buy it.

"Science makes life possible, art makes life worth living." I wasn't saying to get rid of the rewards system, it works very, very well. When all your basic needs are met, what's left? Filling the time with something. Value has nothing to do with tangible/intangible, merely whether someone else wants or needs it, and how badly: "Show me your checkbook and calendar, and I'll tell you your priorities."

As to your points about people spending money they don't have: just as it's a creator's individual responsibility to not use shitty marketing tactics, it's a consumer's individual responsibility to control their spending so that it doesn't adversely affect the rest of their lives. Any outside pressure to spend beyond one's means, if the above requirements are met, is a cultural issue.

As someone who does pirate video games, but tries to have some integrity about it, my perspective is such that... living the life I do, with more time than money, I have the opportunity to play quality games and then tell others about them. I cannot afford any games, but I can do my best to recommend those that I enjoy. I try to show my support in other ways. Meanwhile, however, if I couldn't pirate the games, I would simply fill my time with other things, even to the point of replaying older games that I already own.

Hell, one time I wanted to directly tip a game company for doing a game I really loved, and I was told I could not do that. :( So I agree that there's a problem out there with the distribution method, as well as the motivation method. Creative things, in an ideal world, are done for the sake of creating. Then, if you have a high level of skill and talent, you will then be able to naturally support yourself with that talent. I realize the world doesn't currently function that way, but to me, that would be the nice way of showing appreciation to the truly talented. (One drawback is that just managing the 'people' side of things can be such a time consuming process that it takes away from the creation side. :3)

As for the other one, yeah. Once those basics are met, and you've got some bad luck protection banked, then the spare money can go where you want. Mostly that's filling time with happy things, and yeah, physical qualities are less important then. Though an argument can be made that one should not find happiness in buying all 1000 variants of costume DLC for your 'favorite' game, as at that point that's not a favorite game but rather an addiction. :P There's this fine line between living naturally and living in excess. Some people can only find their version of happiness with life-destroying excess, but that's another matter entirely. :P

We definitely have some major cultural flaws these days. *nods solemnly* And thank you for replying in intellectual parity to my own statements. It's nice to have a discussion about these things without it being backed with misdirected passions. It's important to truly think about people's views and not just feel that words and feelings can only be A or B. "Multi-faceted" is true for both language and the people themselves.

And as for on topic, I think that it's wrong to pirate stuff like artwork, especially when it will be released free over time. In fact, I've often wondered if the business model issue mentioned earlier could be solved by making products free on a time-release, and in addition have the "High quality" version be what is paid for. With an anime, it could be '480p free, 1080p purchased', with games it could be 'high end graphics settings' for the paid feature. Then, those who want to appreciate it culturally can do so, while those who enjoy it and want to show support can pay for the pretty versions. It's at least a different approach, whether it could succeed or not (ever), I don't know.

Hah, yeah that has to do with publisher contracts and all that fun shit. They could probaby allow you to do it, but doing so would get them screwed over with time, legally. Odd how that works, and it shouldn't but that's how it is.

I like that you're willing to acknowledge the difference between how you feel the world should work and how the world is - a lot of idealists I run into don't understand that... It's frustrating lol. I agree taht it's nice to have a discussion that, for once, does not devolve into insults or absolutes, even if the other side doesn't agree. We need more of that in the world... Different doesn't mean wrong.

I would agree with you, and I actually see a lot of artists doing HQ and early-release rewards via Patreon, as opposed to paywalling stuff. Of course people are free to run their businesses as they like, but I feel like that's the way to go about things. The people who can't afford to support you financially don't feel like they're missing out just because of the hand they were dealt, and the people who can get to feel like they're getting something extra in return for financially supporting an artist they like. Everyone wins.

I've pirated stuff before, and probably still will, but as my income increases such that I can afford to, I've started paying for things I would normally not because I want to support the things that I like. That trend will continue as my income increases, and I hope the same is true for a lot of people in our community~

*Leaves a thumbs up as he holds a lot of agreement for the post, but isn't sure how to continue the topic* :P Just want to acknowledge I read things. :3

I'm with Blue...why don't we bring the pirate sites out into the open for all to see? There must be DCMA protections that can be discussed with the hosting company. I suggest we start there. We make a list of every pirate site, the hosting company associated with it, the precise link where one can go to lodge a complaint with the hosting company, and any individuals or contact information associated with the site.

Maybe if we get these people out into the open, where they're not so "private" any longer, they'll think twice about pirating art.

"There must be DCMA protections that can be discussed with the hosting company." Off-shore hosts outside of America/Canada/UK have diferent rules with regards to the internet. See pirate bay. If they get a takedown notice, they just move to a host with less strict rules.

also we are talking about the internet and their will be ALWAYS a way to see stuff you might already deleted or didnt want so show in the open. "Darknet", just to throw one word in, sadly.

Written originally by Silvador on FA

"It's not Patreon's job to "protect content". Patreon was designed as a tip jar, a method for an artist's supporters to donate of their own free will and give their favourite artists a chance to dedicate more time to the art they wanted to make instead of struggle always relying on commissions to make it in life. Patreon was intended as a suppliment to an artist's income, a donation system based on generosity. But many artists have turned Patreon into their own, personal paywall, and instead of donating to a favourite artist, people are forced to buy the content they would've gotten to see for free before Patreon was made. Each creator is responsible for their own content and how it is distributed, not Patreon. Patreon merely created and supplied the medium, it's the artist's who have chosen how to use that medium and they must deal with the repercussions of their choices. Clearly there are people who disagree with how some artists have chosen to paywall themselves with the Patreon site. Such actions are based on greed rather than creation and expression. So some have taken it upon themselves to "strike back", as one might put it, against such individuals.

Don't accuse or blame Patreon for not doing something they were never meant to do. Might as well blame the builders of a playground for not stopping kids beating each other up on it."

---

Now, my 2 cents. Do I support the idea of a tip jar for artists? Yes. Do I support what Patreon was designed to be? Yeah. Do I support what it was turned into and how artists are abusing it? Hell no. Do I support anybody on Patreon? Nope. Will I ever support anybody on Patreon? Nope. Do I send out tips to artists I like who DON'T paywall anything (via means like ko-fi, or directly)? Have done, am doing, and will continue to do.

I don't know what website(s) are out there that are dedicated to breaking down the wall, might find it some day, but I'm not too bothered by it. From what I've seen, the majority with Patreon, at least artists, paywall heavily, and even if a very small minority of users did it, they're doing it to such an extent that ruins it for everybody else, making everybody on Patreon victims, paywallers or not.

I agree with this. I don't think paywalling is right at all; nor do I think that giving access to a lower quality download will satisfy those who want to support you, even if it is free.

I feel the best option is to make your work available in the best quality for everyone, maybe even offering your work files to have other artists collaborate or build off your work. I've seen this work to great effect.

Take a look at David Revoy and his site peppercarrot.com. It's a libre/free webcomic supported entirely by donors, myself included. He encourages people to use his work and build, modify, and sell it even.

Best of luck to you though however you decide to do things.

Pretty much this all day. As I've stated on a similar journal, I see this as being akin to trying to fix a ruptured pipe with a single BAND-AID, a waste of time and energy in the grand scheme of things. I can also see this as just painting a massive target on an artist's back. You will be surprised the extent people will go, especially on the Internet, just to spite someone.

Personal opinion: I've grown to absolutely DESPISE Patreon for the same reasons stated above: too many artists abusing the system poisoned the whole well. So end of the day, neither side of this argument is in the right, moral or otherwise.

Don't you think it's an overreaction to refuse to support any artists through Patreon just because a few well-known artists have paywalled half or all of their content?

As a client, a business owner, and an artist, I think that's a really shitty way to go about running your business...but to suddenly, as a consumer, turn around and say all artists who attempt to provide value in return for stable income should be boycotted, even the ones for whom you would approve of the way they use the platform if you knew about them? That's just as shitty.

The payment models you suggest work, but they're inconsistent, and not everyone can deal with running a business like that. Patreon allows for a stable framework on both sides, and if a creator abuses that, they should and will be held to the consequences, usually in the form of loss of income, be it customers leaving or lost via opportunity cost. The other artists who do business in a way you would approve of only become victims when people act the way you are, judging the many on the actions of a few.

It might be an overreaction, but I'm not letting a single cent of my money go to Patreon themselves and encourage more of the same behavior. I'm not even referring to a handful of well known artists, there's a lot of lowly people or just casual artists who've been doing it for a few years way overdo it. Example would be: A dedicated porn site, an artist posts ONE SFW pic, and advertises "8+ versions, higher res, etc. on patreon", or censors the absolute shit out of things, or uploads pictures so small that I could hide them behind a standard playing card if I held it up to my monitor.

As the original quote said, and what I've said many times before, it was a tip jar, a supplement, not something to rely fully on. If people misuse that, they're subject to whatever happens, and I feel no remorse towards those people. There are a few who are too big to give a shit if their stuff gets leaked, but it's always the "OH I CAN BARELY MAKE IT IN THE WORLD IF I DON'T HIT MY QUOTA, AND AFTER PAYWALLING 90% OF MY CONTENT, SOMEONE LEAKED IT AND NOW I'M NOT GONNA BE ABLE TO AFFORD RENT, WOE IS ME". Quit complaining and work more, Yes, I'm not an artist, and yes, I know how hard it is sometimes, taxes are higher, real life can get in the way more with distractions and such, but it's YOUR responsibility, not some website you're abusing the purpose of.

And that's exactly why I took the tone I did, I wanted to hear your reasons BEHIND that stance. Particularly the emotional motivation~

I actually agree with your viewpoints regarding Patreon (their recent backpedal does nothing to hide their true nature that was revealed with their recent move... ), and I do hope that if an artist you like has a Patreon, that wouldn't stop you from supporting them via a different platform if they gave you the option. As you've said, Patreon is meant to be part of a system of multiple streams of income platforms; from a business perspective, if you offer the kind of things that would do well there, it's unwise to miss out on that opportunity, and you can always drive traffic to other avenues.

Hah. Yes, at the end of the day, freelance artwork or even fine art is still a job, and jobs require work. I'm very hard on myself when it comes to not working or falling behind, because it wouldn't be accepted at a "real job", so why should I accept it from myself? As a freelancer, you're your own boss. It's hard, but for me, it's worth it.

I'm glad your elaboration turned out to be what it did, and I totally agree that artists need to assume responsibility for the way they publish their content and for the timely output and consistent quality of their work.

There are plenty of artists out there who still use patreon as a tip jar. A lot of artists use 'early access' structure as well as an incentive, which I think is harmless and a good incentive as well. See Corablue, herrandy, kabier as three examples. All finished works end up on their FA accounts, which is pretty spiffy. Some are even outright 'popufurs'. :P

I wouldn't mind the early access thing as much, but issues I have with that and other things are holidays and commissions, and a time limit. Make it a few days to a week, not a month to a year, if not longer. Holiday stuff becomes irrelevant when you upload it a week or more after the holiday has passed, and really makes it feel like it's more out of greed than anything else. Also, paywalling commissions is bullshit too, you've already been paid for it, post it publicly. Hardly anybody advertises "X amount of exclusivity time", it's always "here's the worst resolution/censored pic on a porn site, pay me for the other 500 versions, uncensored, no patreon logos".

Maybe if you took the time to see what I offer at Patreon, you'd understand that I'm not paywalling anything. All my comics become available for free in a pretty decent quality. Pinups and others are also being uploaded for free everywhere and still, I believe that people that are taking the effort to regularly sending money should get a little extra in return and I try to keep that content relevant only to those who are genuinely interested in what I create.

If Patreon didn't want for people to use certain levels of paywalls, then they shouldn't have offered it, and they did and constantly do, by allowing every post to be available for the general public, patrons or the different levels of tiers. If they can't at least keep their word on making such content available specifically for the people they claim the can, then they're lying and that's on them. If Patreon was merely "a tip jar" as some claim, then why promote themselves as something different as ko-fi, "buy me a coffee" or liberapay? Clearly they offer more, and that's why people went to them instead of other options, so the least they can do is to keep up their word of offering the features they promote they do offer. Completely taking away any blame from Patreon is as bad as taking every blame from the users. There's always a shared fault in such cases, and I believe Patreon should face their share of blame as we artists to everyday. Because, believe me, we all deal with the consequences of our actions every single day.

I also don't think that people should abuse the platform as they do. I do think that there are people out there that are not using Patreon correcly and that's causing a good platform to have troubles everyday. Yes, I can criticize Patreon for wrong turns I think they made and even then I can still like the platform and stick with it for as long as I can. People often think that criticizing something equals to hating it, and that's a phallacy. And I do like Patreon and I've been sharing with them every bit of criticism I had over the years, to at least help them in any way to become better.

I'm pretty sure you completely missed his point about the responsibility being the artist's, not Patreon's, for using the platform wrongly. Patreon has stated that it is a tipjar supported by incentives, not exclusivity (he even gave a quote). Plus, I don't think he's specifically talked about you doing it more than adding to the debate about the subject of pirating Patreon paywall content. I do not believe you are one which fits in his case.

I must admit I wasn't aware there were that many "paywall patreon accounts" to cause such level of dislike from the audience. It feels like I'm being put with the rest simply because I mentioned there are issues with piracy that need solving. I already agreed that Patreon should not be to blame for every single thing that goes bad. And I also try don't use Patreon as a paywall as much as possible.

Maybe if someone feels truly bad about there being so many artists putting paywalls to everything they do, they could try to ask them about their opinion directly. I personally don't think putting paywalls to everything is a good option, and should instead be done through sales of digital or physical content, as a way to monetize your work. So at least on my side, you won't see me defending anyone for putting paywalls to their creations, but I won't speak against it either, because they are entitled to do whatever they want with what they create. I don't share that point of view, but I won't claim I hold the full truth. I know it's a spiny subject to talk about, but I trust that people won't hate me simply for speaking what sincerely is in my mind.

Granted, Patreon's recent actions (which they backpedaled on when the community backlash got too big) were specifically designed to kill off the tip jar market on the site by tacking transaction fees directly onto patron's pledges. It disproportionately affected people making larger numbers of small pledges. There was even a quote from one of their people stating the site wanted to gear things to support mostly just the artists making "life changing" amounts of money through the site, the tiny portion of people making enough to actually pay the bills. It pretty much screwed over anyone who was just using it as a tip jar and a ton of people lost small pledges over that. So maybe the tip jar model was the original goal, but like any successful business, most of their attention is on their cash cows, not the little guys.

Paywalling or restricting your content to be shared on the sites you chose to, is totally up to you as a creator of the content and it should be respected.

But I'm pretty sure it's not patreon's duty to fight for your copyrights outside of patreon itself. If people are taking your content from patreon to post it on sites you didn't authorize, it's definitely not patreon's task to chase them out there.

It's your problem to deal with piracy, and that the key word "problem" because dedicating time and money to fight pirates is your burden to take if you decide it's worth.

Digital content it's easy to pirate in this age, there are many sites where people upload paywalled comics from artists, but they even do it with physical copies by scanning the pages.

For artists who rely on paywalling their productions it might be a good idea to join forces, and attack those sites and people, but for the big majority it wouldn't be worth the time and money. Even Disney, Nintendo and Blizzard being huge companies with aggressive stance on piracy can only do so much to fight piracy and only aim for relevant targets that are getting too much attention or making too much money out of their IP.

It's not as simple as expecting patreon to fight for you out in the internet when you decide to use their service as a paywall instead of a tip jar with extra perks. But that being said, I totally understand your viewpoint to and if an association of artists so fight theft and piracy ever comes to life, I would give them my support. :)

Until then you should mostly worry about theft where they remove your name from the content and claim it as their own. While your name is on the reuploaded thing, it's publicity for you even if that unauthorized site might get some donations out of it... people lurking in those sites will end up visiting your real gallery.

I've actually actively allowed for my work to be posted anywhere as long as they provide the proper credit. Someone mentioned e621 and I never posted anything there personally, but I don't mind as long as the pictures posted there have the respective watermark and provide a way for people to reach my other galleries.

I'm actually not asking Patreon to fight for copyrights. I'm curious why some people made that assumption. What I'm asking is for Patreon to at least try to make it harder for people to steal the content, although impossible, it can at least reduce the damage in some way. The fight for copyrights is of course something we'll be taking directly to where it belongs, and here I was only asking for people to not be swayed by those sites, because if someone asks for money in any other site, then they're essentially stealing from me. So I believe at least letting everyone know that I'm against that is important.

Other than that, I agree with you that as long as people don't claim my work as their own or try to earn money from that, then the use of the material is perfectly fair :)

I've been pointed at people posting some of my stuff to e621 aswell, but that's one site that does good work on linking back to the creators at least. If anything, you can find honest feedback on the comments there since they don't expect you to see them.

The assumption of you wanting Patreon to fight for your copyright came from your wording in the journal. When you say you're getting in contact with Patreon because they are pretty bad as resolving these issues, sounds like you expect them to go out to the sites your stuff was uploaded and get that stuff taken down, because the logical way that your stuff is being leaked is by people who are supporting your patreon and getting direct access to the material you have there, and it's not Patreon's fault at that point if your supporters decide to copy that stuff to the public. Patreon enabled upfront payments as measure against people backing off after taking the content without paying anything.

Of course, I might be missing some detail since I don't use Patreon myself D:

I see now what you mean. In reality what the site does still allow is to cheat the pledges and that people can get access to the content without paying a single month. That feature alone can stop most of people wanting to get free access. Although I've seen at least one site that looks like a "copy-paste" version of Patreon's content feed. It even includes the comments that people leave at Patreon as if it was hacked and exctracted directly from the website, and it's even up to date! That makes me think that they also have a security issue that needs to be addressed. Taking down the site though, is the artist's task and we'll try to work towards that, but I also believe that Patreon has some issues that need to be solved.

Im honest here and i try my best to use the right words and not to sound like a asshole so that people really should understand me and take a moment to read this comment. also, please bear with me, i try my best with english and...i suck sometimes with it.

First of all, youre sure right and I, at least, understand your reasons to "complain" about that said thieves. Sadly, such journals let people tent to "over react", graping pitchfork and torches and playing white knights and the angry mop - or beginnign to play the fanarmy for the said artist which is always never a good thing using your "fans as weapon".

Here i like to quote the bible:
"But when they went on with their questions, he got up and said to them, Let him among you who is without sin be the first to send a stone at her." John 8:7

What i try to tell here is, a lot people begin here to react like they never did such misstakes, in that case used such "bad sides" to look at peoples content they cant see coz they either have to pay for it. reasons could be they cant effort the "support" or the artist is actually creating a paywall around the content noone is really able to pay for. In your case, i cant tell how you work but so farr it gives 2 models i can explain a lot artists use if they use patreon, i gave them the follow names:

"Fair Use" - This artist creates content for patreon user and gives them to those for free to look at. around 1-2 months later, the free-artpage supporters (Like DA, FA and etc) will also get to see this pictures but just later - as i said around 1-2 months later (or maybe a bit longer)

"Paywall creator" - This artist creates content for patreon users and gives them to those only who actually pay for, creating a virtual paywall. Free-artpage supporters only see teasers or just get note that this said artist created a special art which you have to pay for to see it.

I have to say here, im not a "person" who likes to support "patreon" artists in general - NOT coz of the artists - coz of how losely the rules are on patreon about copyrights and trademarks (I mean, Blizzard, Nintendo, Capcom, Digimon...do i need to say more?) they handle there, sadly.
Still, i cant wear a white vest here coz i ones used such "bad sides" coz i cant support this said artists, mostly namely the ones who uses the last model and im at least fair and honest to say i did. I stoped using such sides coz i saw, it was not right and that the people who actually work hard for our "amusement" needs somehow to earn money.
Sadly, some of this patreon artists want way to much from people who doesnt drive a golden car...
I draw over 13 years now myself, pur old school traditional art and i might be not the very best but i know what it means to put effort and money into art. For me, art might be just a hobby but some people actually really work as artist, earning money and live actually from their art they do. Its sad it gives thieves who do take their art and bring it into the open but sadly, its the internet and as i might try to tell, some artists really need this support but actually, who does it really need in a fair way and who actually does it wrong?

The thieves who "stole" the art and brings it into the open or the artists who locks the art behind a paywall after years and years of drawing for free?
I will not say here "i blame the artists coz they created a paywall" (at least the ones who really do*) either i say "I blame the thieves coz they brign back the art for free since the artist was free since ages".

Dont throw knifes at me if i say here, i blame here both sides a bit.
I can totally understand the artist who needs money and a lot are worth it to help them and support them. Hell, if i could i would support even you. Sadly, i suffer since years now from really hard health problems and right now, the doctors said even i am not able to work - at all - giving me nearly no income i could live with either then supporting anyone. I didnt tell this story coz i want your guys pity but sometimes, not everyone is born with a lucky clover in his blankets...sadly. Thats what maybe even this thieves might be, at least the most. Dont judge them if they sure take the art, which they sure shouldnt but again, some are not albe to support people which they might would. They sure want to see and be "part" of the supporters somewhat somehow but how if not looking at the "newest art everyone is talking about"? AND to be fair, i knew pages where actually people payed the artist and sharded the art with the people who actually are not able to pay the art/paywalls from this artists, hell, some even payed such people their commission there for those people. So are those really "thieves"? I mean, again, dont get me wrong. Stealing is sure stealing and needs to be punished but, if you help someone out and might try to help someone out too, what would you do in this situation. Sure, art is not "food" and its more a "luxury" (still nowadays) but you should think twice about it maybe before you begin to throw rude words at people who might just want to be "as cool and hip" as the people who talk about the newest art from their fave artist they are sadly not able to support.


Again, im sorry if people might missunderstand me and bear with me if my english is so bad...im sorry in that case.
thanks for reading.


*Im honest here, some artists creating a payside, another merchandise store, has prices for commissions which are really very high AND creating a paywall-patreon. Im sure that "those" artists dont need as much support as other artists which really pay their rent from the money and not their 3rd gold car...

Lot of people seems to bring in a lot those artists that created paywalls for content they offered for free for years. I understand that position and I don't think doing that is right, so, unless I'm mistaken, I can calmly affirm that what I'm doing is nothing of the sort.

My first reason is because, all I uploaded for years were commissions and those posts are still free. I keep posting for free every single piece of commission I create, and when I don't due lack of time, the commissioner does. And even then, hi-res versions of the commissions wewre always a privilege of the commissioners simply because they paid for the work. I always believed that was only fair.

My projects at patreon all are posted for free every month in a very decent resolution. Patrons and other supporters have early access to the comic pages, and only them have access to hi-res versions. I think that's also only fair, because they're putting money in for the creation of the content they like. So if you can accept that commissioners can get their picture in hi-res version exclusively, then the same principle applies for my projects at patreon.

Also every other pinup and short comics are being posted for free too in the second they are finished. I'm no longer keeping anything as elaborate as pinups behind a paywall, but again patrons deserve the right to get access to hi-res versions simply because they make the effort of putting in money, which is not a minor thing, specially these days.

I do keep behind a paywall, certain additional content such as sketches, scripts and certain benefits such as taking part of discord discussions or taking part in streams. But all that content is only important for people who are truly invested in the creation of the comics. If you consider fair that a movie bluray with additional content is more expensive than a regular bluray, then the same logic applies here. All that extra content that I keep behind the paywall is something that's not entirely relevant to the comics and so, can be totally left aside without major loss if you don't like it.

I don't know how other people design they Patreon accounts, but I'm certain that if they're abusing in any way the platform, then that should be fought against by the more important factor there is: money. As long as there are people paying those creators for being abusive, then that will keep happening. But I'm afraid that's way beyond the reach of this journal.

In any case I appreciate your reply and I took advantage of it to make clear that I don't support abusive behaviour from the artist's side either. And that I'm also not asking for patreon to fight my battles. All I did was to warn my supporters of the existence of pirate websites that could potentially ask for money and to help me keep an eye open for them. And of course to make clear that I'm against piracy, even though I did consume pirated content before and I'm trying to change that now for good.

People may overreact to this. But I believe it's important to say I'm against this, instead of pretending it's not happening. If I can't trust my followers to share this worry with them, then how can we try to build a community? I can only appeal to their intelligence, and that if drama does rise up, they'll be smart enough to let it pass away on it's own.

i understand your point and yes, how you use patreon is "fair". I mean that patreons get higher res and incs/get to see earlier version before the picture is done is just fair, they pay for it. still, sadly a lot people do create paywalls around it and that is not the best way to do - even more not if copyright holders and trademark is involt.

Im also glad you understood my opinion, im sorry if my english sucked sometimes here and there but yes, people shouldnt overreact and begin to fight each other. Again, i wish myself i could commission you more or even support you on your patreon (like many other good artists) but with nearly no money earning and my health problems, i might be able to save for a commission from you some day.

Still thank you for reading and the replay.

(edit: since i also saw youre frm mexico, i might have to ask, do you know the artist "alquicira"? and if you do, maybe you know a reason why he...well..."dissapiert"? I loved his art, i might was his faved watcher heh.)

What country you from?

Mexico, so I know firsthand the damage piracy can do, and how it often correlates directly with other crimes.

I think you did not understand purpose of my question.

well, my first statement remains true XD
but I'd like to know what the purpose of your question is then.

Let's say i provide some services. But sadly, not internationally.

Yes, that's usually the biggest issue with out-of-the-US creators. I don't know how I could encourage the creation of similar platforms locally or intenationally, but believe me that I'd love to help with that in any way, because it could be good to have options for everyone.

I'll fully admit to using a couple such sites, though only to look up art, never post it. And the only artwork I've looked up on said sites were of those that have essentially started paywalling all or most of their work, with only posting highly censored or highly cropped teasers, with the patreon symbol plastered all over it. (I've also unwatched said artists on FA and IB because all they started posting anymore was highly cropped, poorly made teasers)

Now, do I support people on patreon? Hell yeah. I support several artists on patreon, all of which do a timed released system, where it gets released on patreon first, then later on FA, IB, ect at a later date. (although a couple artists just post it instantly anyway, but thats their choice so lol)
I support that model because everyone wins. FA, IB, and other such free sites I feel are like free advertising for the artist. I cant tell you how many artists I've found through other people's favorites here on FA. Probably a good 75% to 85% of all the people I watch were found through artwork that was in other people's favorites lmao

The point I'm trying to make is, the fault is honestly on both sides. Patreon has been swamped by tons of artists who paywall most if not all of their work, and people have gotten upset about it, especially since said artist used to post everything for free, and is using the site against its original intended use, ie a tip jar. Sadly, this seems to have also effected people like yourself, who dont paywall their stuff. Pirates tend not to pick and choose whos stuff they steal. And from what I've seen from those sites, they seem have to a personal vendetta against any artist that uses patreon.

I will make a promise to you, and other artists. Even though I do use those sites to look at art, I will never, and wont ever upload anything from artists I support on patreon or anywhere. Artists, all artists, deserve to get paid for their work, and I will openly support any and all artists who use patreon as it was intended, either by using it solely for tips, or doing a timed released system

*shrug* it's a bad rationalization and a bad habit if you intend to respect furry content creators.

One of the content creators I support on patreon had his stuff leaked a little while ago. You know what he did when he found out? He went on there and let them know he knew about it, and basically told them he had 0 issues with them posting his stuff. And to top it off...he then posted a few pictures he made himself on that very site.

His art hasn't been posted to that site by anyone else since then. (probably also because he posts everything to his inkbunny account for free as well) Also, after I found out what happened, I upped my pledge to him on his patreon to the highest tier he has available.

Respect is a two way street. Artists who dont also respect their watchers and supporters, and paywall most or all of their work and treat their customers as nothing more than source of money, will not receive any respect from me in return.

Again, poor rationalization. Lacking respect for someone isn't a free pass to commit thievery, or profit from some other's thievery.

and yes, there are plenty of folks who dig their own graves. Metallica's reaction to napster comes to mind.

that still doesn't validate theft.

I don't condone stealing, and frankly I don't use any site like that.

It does put into perspective how damaging piracy can be, from a video game studio to a niche artist.

One things that's always helped me in life, is putting things into perspective. In this case, it's what you can and cannot control.

No matter how hard you try, no matter how right you are, no matter how scummy other people are, no matter how responsive patreon is... you cannot control these things. If someone is intent on capturing your patreon content and hosting it somewhere else - well - you can't control their urge to do it. No matter how wrong that urge is.
So, don't lose sleep over what others are doing.

Lose sleep over what you can control. You can control how you put your art, and how you gain income off of it. Think all your art is getting leaked out and you're not making enough in subs? Take on more commission work is an option. Maybe your patreon pay scheme is driving more people away, and you could change things and ultimately make more in a month.

You can control your response to patreon. You seem to have opinions on it. I'd say though that if you know of a platform patreon should mimic that's secured visual images from ever being replicated.... I'd sure like to hear of it. :P

Maybe furry art isn't a sustainable way to pay bills! =P

Art piracy is only damaging to the greedy.

You're right about everything. I'm only providing Patreon with my observations mostly because I want them to be better and not simply to have a target for my rants, I'm not expecting them to solve all the problems in the world, but I also believe that they could rather focus on things that are as important as having statistic charts of support, pageviews and such. At least make it a bit harder for hackers and tricky people to access content they shouldn't. Nothing can truly make piracy go away, but if we think it's not good, then pretending is not an issue is not a good thing to do either. A least that's what I believe.

I'm actually more worried about people that are trying to get money from content they didn't create and for taking away the very few rewards I offer for my supporters. I also offer pretty much all my content for free, save h-res versions and a couple of additional content that would interest only the more interested in my comics. It would be like downloading a dvd with extra material from a movie. It happens all the time, but that doesn't make it right and I still believe it's important to tell that we're against it. About those other artists that apparently hide stuff behind paywalls, I don't really know a lot.

I also believe we should start thinking into organizing into some sort of artists' guild. It would not only offer advantages when fighting things as piracy, but can also help set up methods and standards that can help artists to get better together and make this relatively new industry earn the formality and respect it deserves.

dont take it personally. while more of your followers might get bonuses they didnt pay for doing this, its not really going to change your supporter count.

if you changed to a time delay production model instead of a low res alternative model you could probably wipe out a lot of that stuff anyway. and completely destroy anyone's hopes of getting money from selling your stuff.

without putting effort into reducing your own exposure, which would limit your growth.

what would you consider a delay production model? I'm curious because I'm seriously thinking of trying every possibility there is, and if it does look like it can work for me, I would try it right away :)

your presentation already seems pretty open, so, a change of tactics to take out the middle-men seems to be what you are after.
simply, its what you do with your comic, putting out the full res works after delays. changing the timescales for different things.
i have to wonder though, do the people giving money to those other sites know you arent getting anything from it? your journal doesnt clear that up.

adopting one of the patreon alternatives as a mirror could help. a lot of people refuse to use patreon now due to patreon supporting of terrorists, most notably antifa.

ronindude is one of the few artists i ever followed on patreon, he puts out the low res stuff early as bait, with a message of "sign up to patreon before the end of the month to get the art pack this came from". speaking of which to did a build your audience psa recently
https://ronindude.deviantart.com/jo.....ence-720294571
since he is also an artist he could likely give you advice from experience if you message him.

Fluffkevlar is another artist that has managed to separate some of my money from me. though that was via e-junkie.com. since they post their packs there and gradually drop the price.

I believe that people who give money on Patreon to support you will support you regardless of whether it's "pirated" (in your case it's more a faster upload than really Pirating, as your incentive is merely time), or not.

It is known that most people who consume pirated media were either not going to or not able to pay for the product either way. Anyone which cancels their patreon "subscription" after finding your stuff somewhere else online weren't there to support you, but were buying your product. In a way, they themselves weren't using Patreon right. If they wanted to buy your product, they might as well get themselves a commission from you.

Usually, if you lose a large portion of "hard earned money" from patreon after a pirating site has been gaining attraction which has been uploading your content, that should tell you more about the legitimacy of your business practice than about your customers, and I do means customers in that case, not supporters. (the "you" here is generalistic, to all artists)

Using Patreon as a paywall is a bit like "art/commission microtransactions".

I pretty much agree with everything you said. I haven't lost many supporters due piracy mostly because what I do is focused on stuff that could only potentially interest people already invested in the comics. But I also believe it's important to say that I'm against piracy and even though it's not an easily solved issue, it's not good either to pretend it's not a problem. I know it's a spiny subject to talk about, but it has to be talked about every now and then.

Of course, and I welcome the debate. Though, I don't believe piracy is a subjective problem in most cases, it's usually just a problem to the party which's practice is causing the piracy to happen. Greed is everywhere, such is it's counterpart. Both are cause and effect of each other, at some point one needs to break the cycle by stopping either, which the businesses find easier to try stop piracy than to clean up their business practices because it's more profitable. Same with any other greedy self-employed individual.

In other words, with our current world, it's inevitable. (loss of net neutrality isn't going to make it any better)

All businesses budget for theft, it's true. And, any creator should keep that in mind - theft is a part of this world, and there's a certain amount that makes sense to tolerate, before it disrupts your ability to make a profitable business.

I would comment that furries are pretty damn okay with furry art piracy though, and a lot of folks in our community shun creators who try to eek out a living creating high-quality content that fits our niche.

At cons and stuff, I've heard this argument cyclically. Typically it involves someone going "I can't afford that, so fuck 'em", and most others either not calling them out or jumping on the bandwagon. We bring down the content creators and their incentive to create for this community by being complicit to theft, and not labeling it as theft, when it is outright theft.

So, as a community, we could do more to support those who share their talents with us. C:

A lot of this assumes most even can support artists, which isn't true. Piracy and theft are also two highly different things.

Highly different? No. Just no.

If you can’t afford to see an artists content but want to respect them, the best thing you can do is don’t pirate or consume pirated copies. It cheapens the artists product and negatively, directly impacts their ability to make more content.

Simple.

I'm a bit shocked of this post, because I got recently some patrons that are marked as fraud
Can you send me a link to one of those sides?

I can send you a note with the link of the most recent page I was made aware of, if you like.

Yes, please send me the links.
Thanks.