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Facebook Flamewar Free-for-all!
16 years ago
General
I had an interesting situation crop up during the week. I have a Facebook page. I have "Friends" on my FB page--most of whom are people I went to high school with, and have been sent invitations from merely because I am an alumni of that HS. End of backstory.
The other day I was listening to a gay podcast I like and they mentioned several recent situations where gay couples, usually male, have been kicked out of public venues for kissing. Additionally, at least two of these couples were followed into the street and called names and threatened. This upset me. I think that it should go without question that anything a straight couple can do in public, a gay couple has the equal right to do in public. Basic civil rights.
After hearing this story I went on my FB page to check things out and I saw the box up at the top that says, "Tell us what's on your mind", or words to that effect, so I did. I wrote a brief statement that I had heard this story and was saddened that in 21st Century America, there should even be a question of gay people having basic civil rights, such as being able to show affection to their date or partner or "spouse" in public. A simple enough statement and barely even controversial the way I phrased it.
Well, one of my "Friends" (in actuality a guy from my HS that I haven't spoken to in 26 years and didn't know very well even then) immediately posted a rant (no other word for it) that my statement was irresponsible and that I was promoting perversion and that that kind of sick deviant activity should be kept in private and shouldn't really be practiced even there. He insisted that what I was promoting was the same as saying it was ok to "go around drunk all the time or to abuse children". Seriously, I kid you not.
I replied as calmly as I could and received another rant. Fortunately several people I am ACTUALLY friends with came to my defense, but he dismissed all of us as "liberal deviants". Finally after his last rant about his concerns that homosexuals might target his preteen sons, he booted me off his friends list so I can't see him anymore and he isn't subject to my deviant ideas about basic human rights. I had told him he was spouting hate and monumental ignorance as well as outright bigotry. That was as strong as my replies ever became, and I don't believe that I was wrong about that assesment. I figured that ended the flame war.
But Bel is still ON his "Friends" list. She showed me the last post he made to his FB page in which he said that people on FB should think carefully about making statements on there boards that promote ignorance and hate in seemingly innocent terms. So...he was acusing ME of promoting ignorance and hate with my suggestion that it wasn't OK to be a homophobic bigot. He used the tired and completely ignorant arguement that gay sex is unnatural and sodomy is evil. Oh, and HE was the one that brought gay sex into the discussion in his first posting. I only mentioned kissing.
I find this irritating. So, after my posting, he wildly overreacted and went on rant after rant basically telling me I am a deviant (and he used the word 'perversion' in EVERY posting) and am basically as much of a threat to society as drunks and child molesters...simply for being gay. And now he's blogging on his FB page that I'm the one promoting ignance and hate.
*sigh* I also find it interesting that one of my actual friends, who happens to be a straight, conservative, Republican, Evangelical Christian came to my defense saying that he was wrong and that Christ would welcome civil debate. So, it isn't all bad. But I can't help but still feel sad about having the stories of continued hate for gays so pointedly demonstrated.
The other day I was listening to a gay podcast I like and they mentioned several recent situations where gay couples, usually male, have been kicked out of public venues for kissing. Additionally, at least two of these couples were followed into the street and called names and threatened. This upset me. I think that it should go without question that anything a straight couple can do in public, a gay couple has the equal right to do in public. Basic civil rights.
After hearing this story I went on my FB page to check things out and I saw the box up at the top that says, "Tell us what's on your mind", or words to that effect, so I did. I wrote a brief statement that I had heard this story and was saddened that in 21st Century America, there should even be a question of gay people having basic civil rights, such as being able to show affection to their date or partner or "spouse" in public. A simple enough statement and barely even controversial the way I phrased it.
Well, one of my "Friends" (in actuality a guy from my HS that I haven't spoken to in 26 years and didn't know very well even then) immediately posted a rant (no other word for it) that my statement was irresponsible and that I was promoting perversion and that that kind of sick deviant activity should be kept in private and shouldn't really be practiced even there. He insisted that what I was promoting was the same as saying it was ok to "go around drunk all the time or to abuse children". Seriously, I kid you not.
I replied as calmly as I could and received another rant. Fortunately several people I am ACTUALLY friends with came to my defense, but he dismissed all of us as "liberal deviants". Finally after his last rant about his concerns that homosexuals might target his preteen sons, he booted me off his friends list so I can't see him anymore and he isn't subject to my deviant ideas about basic human rights. I had told him he was spouting hate and monumental ignorance as well as outright bigotry. That was as strong as my replies ever became, and I don't believe that I was wrong about that assesment. I figured that ended the flame war.
But Bel is still ON his "Friends" list. She showed me the last post he made to his FB page in which he said that people on FB should think carefully about making statements on there boards that promote ignorance and hate in seemingly innocent terms. So...he was acusing ME of promoting ignorance and hate with my suggestion that it wasn't OK to be a homophobic bigot. He used the tired and completely ignorant arguement that gay sex is unnatural and sodomy is evil. Oh, and HE was the one that brought gay sex into the discussion in his first posting. I only mentioned kissing.
I find this irritating. So, after my posting, he wildly overreacted and went on rant after rant basically telling me I am a deviant (and he used the word 'perversion' in EVERY posting) and am basically as much of a threat to society as drunks and child molesters...simply for being gay. And now he's blogging on his FB page that I'm the one promoting ignance and hate.
*sigh* I also find it interesting that one of my actual friends, who happens to be a straight, conservative, Republican, Evangelical Christian came to my defense saying that he was wrong and that Christ would welcome civil debate. So, it isn't all bad. But I can't help but still feel sad about having the stories of continued hate for gays so pointedly demonstrated.
I told him that such a discussion was pointless and that I knew a brick wall when I hit one.
I'm sorry you had to go through that.
But, yep. Brick wall.
And thanks. I was extremely upset by it as it was happening--but I'm mostly just saddened by it now.
Srsly though, its Facebook and the guy is a tard. Fuck 'em
Therefore, he is scared of fun.
They won't get less dangerous. They won't ever see how dumb they are by talking to them because they are so gridlocked in their clouded beliefs that they simply won't realize that they're wrong.
All you can do is laugh at their idiocy and carry on. If they injure you, they will be given their proper penalty.
How do they say, "Sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me."
That's something I've learned while going through a lot of insults and hatred. As long as they stay with words, just ignore them, laugh at them. That will take their fire out.
If they hurt you, they will be punished.
But essentially you are right.
The problem is that it still doesn't matter. There'll always be a certain group of people that will be excluded. Equality is, unfortunately, an illusion. Humans are stupid and they can't grasp that "Everyone should be equal, except those and those and those guys" is extremely bigot.
Of course, looking at that one line makes it look incredibly obvious, but hidden in a lot of words that are taught to pretty much everyone makes that statement still not better, but just easier to follow.
If you ask someone "Are you for equality", then noone will say no, because equality is a good thing.
People that have been taught crap won't just let go of that crap so easily - especially not dumb people like that guy you had encountered.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psycho.....cal_projection
This ... this... gentleman (sorry about the sound of grinding teeth, there) who is calling you a bigot for pointing out that he's a hateful narrow-minded cretin sounds a lot like another right-wing genius who accused me of being a racist for daring to point out that blacks get paid less than whites in this country, in the same diatribe during which he declared all this country's problems were due to wetbacks stealing jobs from Americans (and accused me of censorship him for daring to disagree). All I can figure is that podcasts are finally operational from Planet Bizarro.
I grew up in Oklahoma. An accident of geography is no excuse for being an idiot.
Also, you might have a look at Robert Altemeyer's The Authoritarians for a look at the roots of that sort of thinking.
I saved your journal and have been thinking upon it before I answer. I, too, am a gay man (a Professor) and also handicapped (cane and wheelchair-bound at Cons). You don't know how many people look DOWN on the handicap issue, and I usually don't get a chance to tell them that I'm gay, and so is my Caregiver, MuscleWolf. Well, he is now also my lover and we WILL get married someday.
I have found that a majority of people IRL must be indoctrinated to hate anyone that is not "normal" in their eyes. If you ever read Yahoo News (and then go read Yahoo BUZZ, which are people who comment on the news), you will realize that there has been unprotected, rampant breeding of village idiots and irresponsible parents. BUZZ has the worst bunch of excuse-for-human beings on it I have ever run across. But I digress...
People fear what they don't know. And there are a lot of "groups" and "religious institutions" out there that feed that fear. We have the SAME, unalienable rights that Heteros do, but we are akin to the 1950's-1960's black movement. We need to be heard, and it IS coming about. I remember that even WOMEN at one point, were considered chattel.
We have a long way to go. And I invite anyone of like mind to continue to keep networking for social freedom.
Dineegla
I agree that it's all a basic social rights issue and I do see similarities to the Civil Rights movement of the 60s...the sad thing is though, I know of African-American folks who treat gays just the same way the white bigots do and don't see the hypocrisy. They trot out the argument that being black is something your born with and is immediately obvious and therefore the bigotry is more overt. So many people still imsist that gay is a choice. The problem though is sometimes it is--but mostly it's not. There are all varieties of sexual orientation and everybody wants to make the issue black and white. As far as I'm concerned--gay people are just exactly that: gay PEOPLE. They have the right to believe their beliefs and live their lives and persue their happiness without restraint every bit as much as ANYONE else. Period. No separate, but equal, no qualifying arguments. Period, end of discussion. It is really that simple to me.
You and your Musclewolf sound like a sweet couple, btw--and I wish you the best! And I hope you aren't afraid to kiss him in public! ^0^
And in regards to the blacks? Their deep faith and fundamental attitudes, while admirable, have blinded them when it comes to gay people. They still say, "hate the sin and not the sinner." But in reality, they do both. We are an abomination in most Black Baptist's eyes. I was a Campus Minister at one time in my life, and the amount of black men that I counciled dealing with just masturbation issues was amazing! Many of those college guys were DENOUNCED in their church from the preacher in the pulpit the Sunday AFTER they sought council from that preacher! How hypocritical! And one wonders why people leave churches!!
As a friend once told me: "We are the new blacks."
The saddest thing I see is that most truly dedicated gay and lesbian couples have deep, long-lasting relationships based on the traditional marriage model, while an incredible percentage of hetero couples are divorcing!!!
And they're concerned about US?!?!?!?
... they're called trolls.
It's a sad world we live in where no where it safe, not even the internet (which has been going down hill for the past 10 or so years).
But the most important thing is you didn't cave in and spout off hateful and spiteful words. You kept your composure and your head cool. It shows who is the more mature person in this situation.
(Also, he doesn't live an hour and a half away!) ;)
Personally, I have no problem with public displays of affection. Or even public nudity...although the public will be pleased to note that I don't practice it myself. LOL He's definitely a prude anyway you slice it--but the rant he threw at me based on the simple statement about people's rights I made proves that when it comes to gays, there is something more sinister than he will admit to in his feelings.
http://redwing.hutman.net/~mreed/wa.....troglodyte.htm
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An anarchocapitalist "deviant"
It's sad that people get programmed to hate while they're children. Childhood programming is hard to reverse. I'm glad I was programmed to love others as a child. As for my Christian programming, which thankfully didn't include any hate either(maybe some disdain for Pagans, though), took me 7 years to remove.
As to the rather...intersting set of circumstances to why your friend was posting...well...he needs a seriously huge dose of reality and education. A little less old school ignorance and a huge dose of metrosexualism.
It is shocking that the old ways still linger so much in todays supposed modern society...aahh a tear shall be shed for the amazing amount of ignorance that is manifest herein :(
One major fact I've noticed most homophobes say nothing when I stand up after they spout hate in real life in public after one of their accusations, with "what did you say?" - most times they shut up and avert their gaze.
ALL religious doctrine is based on interpretation. Most of the dogmatic crap practiced by Christians has absolutely nothing to do with official Scripture. That's one rule of thumb I generally use to "judge" the voracity of a religion--how much bullshit do they force on their followers that is supposed to be for the glory of God. Meanwhile--I believe the interpretation you mention about the injunction being against rape, or even against forcing the lowly statis of women on vanquished soldiers. The Bible may not be overtly homophobic, but women sure get harsh treament.
Sadly, there are too few like that preacher, and it's equally sad that you had to deal with such a fool. He's obviously got his brain set on "stunned" and has no real idea of how to actually THINK or question what he was indoctrinated with since childhood. He sounds like little more than a fleshbot who merely parrots the programming he was loaded with. Rock on for your Republican buddy, though- he sounds like an awesome friend!
*huggles* You be you, man: a good person.