So I know this is an old post, but...

Lesbians? Trans men?

Guys who were... not masc but not exactly fem either, like Harvey Milk? Kinda that "normal" in-between that nerdy straight guys are.

Also, don't confuse not getting acknowledgement with not wanting to fuck someone. Two totally different things. I can acknowledge what Einstein did without wanting to fuck him.

Aaaand maybe people would acknowledge fem men more, if, well... they weren't so loud and obnoxious all the time. >.> I don't even mean politics, I just mean going out and about being that way. Other parts of LGBT typically aren't.

K so theres a lot here to unpack here lol. First of all this whole post was irritated satire for the most part as someone who routinely has to deal with straight and gay men's garbage that usually revolves around manchild behavior/toxic masculinity (Ironically this also often includes trans men). Its part of my job description, but that doesn't mean its still not extremely frustrating. Trans people in general do the mostTM for the LGBT community, but trans women go the second mile while facing the most violence out of anyone in our community; which is why I named them more specifically. As for fem gays? Pride EXISTS primarily because of trans people (largely trans women) and as you put it "loud and obnoxious" gay men who were/are completely unashamed of themselves and proudly put their feet forward alongside lesbian women. They all collectively refused to conform to sexism/gender norms. Its the people who challenged cultural norms that made it possible to even exist in public as a gay person. Not the people that conformed/continue to conform.

Meanwhile masculine gay men, "straight acting" gay men, bears, dudes proud that they aren't "obnoxious" or "too gay" or whatever the pretentious fuck they want to call it have contributed next to nothing in the fight for rights and equality, and to this day are proud they are more acceptable to society for being traditionally masculine. Gay furry men take it a step further by obsessing over ridiculously ballooned musculature/megadick, and defining literally everything around how masculine or not they are (and this occurs pretty much unconsciously). Feminine men aren't desirable or "fuckable" as you said unless its totally fetishized/demeaning to them. 90% of gay art/porn is of traditionally masculine men in the modern era. Hell, all this shenanigans ain't even just furries, its everywhere in the LGBT community at large. If I had a dime for every gay dude, furry or no that felt the need to express how attractive I was despite my femininity and intolerance of hypermasculinity Id be able to pay off my fucking student loans.

TLDR: Also "other parts of the LGBT community" are just as defiantly who they are. Its literally just masc gays, and dudes proud of being "normal" that complain about it. Dudes that have mediocre bullshit in their grindr profiles like "no fats no fems." Out and proud queer people are only "obnoxious" because they refuse to be silenced and disrespected any longer. Dont presume to know you have a broad idea of what the LGBT community looks like or how fem gay men act because of the white gays in media, or fucking Rupauls drag race.

I don't see how trans people would do the most for all of LGBT though. Like, in some ways, yes. But in others, no because we'd still need gender non-conforming cis people. (I know trans people can be gender non-conforming too though.) By this logic, anyway. I've talked to several conservative trans women (one who is YouTube-famous) and some of them were very into gender roles being a legit thing, sadly. Like sort of "be a manly man or transition" type of way. =\

I don't exactly believe in "pride" to begin with, so maybe I'm just not getting it.

Also, there's a huge difference between being loud for a valid political reason, and shit like this: https://youtu.be/e3h6es6zh1c
(Was looking for a different video but can't find it.)

If a guy is walking around to random people being flamboyant just to "lol trigger the straights xD" or whatever for no valid reason, then yeah everyone will hate him. And I'll say the same to loud "masculine" sports fan being obnoxious. Just nobody likes loud obnoxious people.

And it's even skeptical to call it "feminine" behavior because... no woman acts like that. None of them. Just call it loud and flamboyant because that's what it is. It's not hating femininity.

As for the porn thing- yeah hyper is annoying and not attractive, but beauty norms exist in every part of society. Straight people have them too but barely anyone (except a few feminists) raises anything about that. I'm kinda jealous that straight people still get to fap to/fuck whoever they want without it causing any problems.

I don't watch LGBT media, so idk how "gays" act in it. But I've seen flamers IRL and it ain't pretty. =\ And they weren't always white.

Here's a short but pretty functional article on why Pride exists/is vital to the survival of LGBT people.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opin.....umn/658306002/

How do they do the most? Trans women literally started Stonewall which caused ANY discussion on decriminalizing our existence as humans in the United States to happen fam. Except in the end it only began the process to give basic rights to gay people, they still suffered and suffer largely alone. Trans women physically defended lesbians and gay men and still do to this day. THAT I can attest to personally. Ive never once had a masc gay protect or defend me (and thats a typical experience); in fact its lesbians and trans people that are usually defending me FROM masc men both socially and on gross occasion physically. You not having experienced the kinds of discrimination/violence that used to be commonplace (and still IS) doesn't make anything Ive said less true whatsoever.

The entire concept of "conservative" trans people is a hypocritical oxy-moron lol. A person doesn't get to claim the arguably most oppressed minority that exists, AND claim the philosophies/politics directly responsible for said oppression and violence. Period. The mental gymnastics/cognitive dissonance alone is insane. Gendering itself is not a problem, or assuming gender/using it. Gender norms in our society are however because they define every facet of daily life, and anyone that steps outside of those norms is ostracized or condescended to or far far worse. The norms are rigid and static. If they were not they would not be the problem. Ultimately though I couldn't care less about the opinions of inflammatory "conservative" trans people who have been largely disavowed for OBVIOUS reasons by their own communities, (see: Jenner) except by people like them willing to play a huge game of psychic Twister. They aren't taken seriously at all by trans people at large because they're entire belief system is a fallacy based on kissing the ass of straights.

I literally addressed the dichotomy of "obnoxious gays at the end of my last reply lol. The media of any kind I.E youtube, TV, and social media "influencers" (lol) do not represent LGBT people. They represent caricatures of us. Yes this includes asshats like people running around being "triggering" or inflammatory for no reason. I wouldn't be so on about this if people (mostly masc gays/butch lesbians) didnt accuse people of being "obnoxious" and "too gay" or "too flamboyant" 24/7 over simplistic stuff that aint that whatsoever. Me wearing swishy hippie pants, a dress, or makeup isnt "obnoxious." Its me enjoying things that Im allowed to enjoy whether society likes it or not because facepaint and textiles dont have gender. Its not being "loud" its being a human being done hiding like a sleuth.

Not being attracted to men who dont present as traditionally masculine is immature/shallow just like only being attracted to super fit conventionally attractive people is. Masculinity is not more desirable/more powerful somehow than feminine traits. You're just taught to believe that way by a culture dominated by men and their "ideals." I can still hip throw a dude twice my size even though my hair is down to my lower back and I sometimes shop in the womens isle. It was never supposed to be masculinity OR femininity; mature people use both. Its all shaped by a toxic culture that controls perceptions. So step outside of it.

As for "not believing in Pride" ? Thats a whole bag of cats I cant even begin to have time addressing in detail, but here's a quickie because its important to understand: "Pride" and the active visibility of queer people is the MAJOR reason we aren't literally lynched with abandon like in the old days, and can get married at all anywhere (granted in recent years all thats coming back, though it never went away for trans women). What people cant see effectively doesn't exist or matter to them. So we have a huge festival around the world in June celebrating our validity/existence and our right to exist because Light knows nobody would care otherwise.

I guess I'm biased because I don't hang around LGBT spaces or with other LGBT people. I talk to a few online and that's my only experiences.

I'm sorry to hear about your experiences. =\ It's hard to fathom why a random gay man would be violent towards other LGBT people.

(The person I was talking about was Blaire White btw, but I've also talked to a few others.)

And as I said, I don't watch LGBT media, but I have met loud obnoxious flamers IRL. Granted, they may not be many, but they do actually exist. And it's not the femininity that's the problem, because women do not act like that.

You keep assuming it's femininity that is the problem. It's not. Women do not do these behaviors. Their make up and clothing is always different from a flamboyant gay man's. It's not really femininity, it's just being obnoxious. That said, if someone is wearing weird clothes but being nice and polite, then there's no problem.

As for the attractions... look, if there was some magical brainwashing machine or injection or pill that could make us all equally attracted to each other, sure I'd take it. You know that's not how it works. And straight people never get policed on their tastes in others. I find it's always gay men getting it the most. Like, do we get to choose who we like or not? May as well keep pretending to be straight.

In an ideal world, pride wouldn't have to exist. I understand why it does. Just wish it didn't have to.

Femininity is not inherently attached to women whatsoever. Thats like... the point of gender studies and queer sociology lol. Gender ideas like masculinity and femininity are ultimately fake, but the associations created from them are effectively real. Ive said already that femininity itself isnt the problem (obviously). Flamboyant gay men and women OFTEN have the same fashion/make up choices because they literally copy each other. Thats superfluous and a different subject though. The kinds of inflammatory people you are talking about exist and nobody smart denies that, but irritating outliers are not representative of a huge swath of queer people that refuse to conform to gender norms. I'm batshit tired of being compared to these outliers or told to "tone it down" because "normal" gays and the straights are uncomfy we're not sorry to be ourselves. Also?

My clothes are not fucking "weird." Theyre my clothes. They belong to me. I bought them. I enjoy them. I look good in them. Its completely irrelevant which fancy gender label they may have had on them at the time of purchase, or that me wearing them makes some uncultured people squirm. Its "weird" to you because you've been taught men and women aught to look a certain way/act a certain way. Its fake. We can be whoever we want.

Finally: it doesn't take more than basic self introspection and exposure lol. Not a brainwashing machine or a matrix pill. Ive traveled all over the world, studied for years of my life, and interacted with people of all shapes, colors, backgrounds, people both feminine and masculine or somewhere in between like me. And every last one of them was marvelous in their own way. You dont need to be well traveled or university educated in socio-cultural science though to get it.

It begins with refusing to limit yourself to the bracket of attraction/taught beauty standards you've absorbed and recognizing people as intricate humans with facets. Instead of basing attraction purely on the shell they come in.

I guess they are weird to me. I'm sorry. But the way flamboyant men dress is totally different from how women dress. I know some men just "cross dress" or whatever, but most seem to have a completely different style. Regardless, that isn't the problem and I agree nobody should be harassed or bothered by it.

And honestly I think there's just different types of people. To some of us, it is very important to have a lover(s) that, upon first glance, make our sex parts harden. Some people are wired to want lust at first sight.

Because again, we are trained to marry lust and attraction together and stop there instead of looking at a full person. Lust is not love, and shouldn't be the basis for relationship or romantic attractions. If that was understood and acted on we'd see a LOT less mediocre relationships, constant breakups, boyfriend hopping, etc. Most people are not willing to expand their brains and dissect WHY they feel the way they do/are attracted to the things they are attracted to; largely because doing so can be uncomfortable at first which is telling. Im an extremely sexual person, and I STILL took the effort and character growth to expand myself and my attractions.

Jonathan Van Ness. Is a perfect example of a spotlight "flamboyant" gay person with fashion tastes that merge "normal" womens clothes and mens clothes together. Hes also an extremely politically aware person who is by most accounts very kind if a bit scatterbrained. Thousands of people straight and queer use his advice. Janelle Monae a wildly famous popstar is queer, and has for years dressed all across the spectrum of gender. Thousands emulate them; men and women and people between. You are probably thinking of drag queens and youtube personalities when you say flamboyant men dress "totally different."

My problem though is that you can tell a guy to be open and accept any person that sends him a message on a dating app or whatever... but the person that sent him the message... why did they send that message? Because of their attractions, likely visual if the guy had a pic up. You're letting one person act on lust, and shaming another for doing so. It's not equal here. The only way to make this equal is an app with no pics at all and just text (I think there's a few of these that exist? Idk.)

Like, I'll be honest, I've experienced this with men who are older (like 50+), very heavy-set, not an attractive face, and only going for fit guys in their 20s. Rather than shame the younger guy for saying no right away. why not shame the older man for doing the same thing you claim the younger guy is doing?? Why does it only go one way? If they're both guilty, they're both guilty and that's that.

The only "husband twin" gay couples I see tend to be young fit (usually white) guys, because they go for guys similar to themselves. But why don't other guys?

That's my main problem, is that attraction-shaming and lust-shaming is never done equally. As I said, straight people rarely get it.

And idk, something seems elitist about shaming people "not working on it" or whatever.

Also, I fucking hate Jonathan. Sorry but he's so overrated and a huge hypocrite. And just annoying flamboyant.

You actually make me bring up a good point- he may "dress normal", but he's so obnoxiously loud, I just can't deal with listening to him. It's not femininity- it's just being annoying.

That and he takes away any man's individual style. The Queer Eye guys make every guy a carbon copy of each other. That's so fucking hypocritical to everything you've been telling me. If a guy has long hair, Jonathan always cuts it all off. I'd expect this behavior from a buzz cut twink, but the irony of Jonathan doing it is infuriating. Always makes the guys clean shaven in the face too when he himself often is not. It's arguable whether he and the other Queer Eye crew make the men "better". I know the straight world is different from the gay one, and women find weird things attractive, but... I dunno, I feel like sometimes they were better before as their authentic selves.

It just seems bogus that, in your logic, some guys get to be their authentic selves, and others need to change. That's not equality at all.

Im speaking in a general sense here as in EVERYONE needs to mature their attractions and not base 90% of their romantic/sexual encounters on lust. Period. Not just older dudes, not young fit dudes, not just straights. EVERYONE. Also? "dating" apps are functionally garbage. Pretty much everyone on them is interested in one thing and one thing only. Lust. So using them is asking to deal with the basic. Apps didnt even come into my mind here, because they are so misrepresentative and fickle that I rarely pay them any mind whatsoever except to tell my younger gay friends to not bother with them if they want an actual relationship that isnt just mediocre sex encounters.

and LMAO while JVN crosses into obnoxious territory sometimes it mostly comes from wild enthusiasm born out of constantly being maligned in his earlier life. Hes a nice person whose also politically aware. Ive also seen pretty much every episode of queer eye, follow his twitter, and actually have some idea of who the man is off screen. He doesn't do the same thing with people's hair or cut off beards UNLESS hes dealing with (and usually is in the show) straight men who dont want anything fancy in the first place (or who have scraggly unkempt hair/beards). He doesn't impose anything on them, and tells them what hes going to do beforehand every time so they can axe it if they want. He's not overrated; he just makes you personally uncomfortable. Those men literally give people a very basic once over that makes them aware of the tools they can use to feel good about themselves AND do well by their own families. Whether or not they USE them after the team leaves is up to those people. They never actually change anything about these dudes personalities, and the majority of them are indeed better off because of them. You're projecting. Regardless this isnt even the point.

Nothing about my stance implies anything other than "If you are not actively working to diversify your perceptions, beliefs, and intelligence along with giving people basic respect; you need to change." If thats uncomfortable to you? I cant help you. You are obligated to work towards being a better person in a shitty world. EVERYONE is obligated to change over the course of their lives into healthier, more mature, more open-minded individuals. If someones "authentic self" is exclusionary, predicated on toxic cultural norms, and emotionally constipated (i.e a majority of male behavior) then that authentic self is shitty and needs to change. Thats not unfair; thats decency and basic growth that men these days straight or gay are desperately in need of

Where does one even talk to LGBT people outside of apps though? There's really no other options. If one does go to a bar or club, won't lust play a part in those interactions too?

And as long as you're equal for everyone. Too many "social justice" types don't want true equality- they want a system where those with the most marginalizations can run around being shit and if anyone points it out, they're a Nazi.

I personally don't believe that anybody owes anything to anybody. I guess call me somewhat of a nihilist.

It depends on where you are? Theres half a dozen queer groups on my university campus alone, a LGBT community center that regularly hosts events in the middle of my city, a dozen non profits always looking for help, and three bars minimum. It requires effort. More than it does for the straights; that doesnt mean it isnt there. And again it depends on where a person is. But if its the US, Europe, Australia, or many sections of South America? Its not impossible or even improbable (I live in the American south before a "you must live in a liberal city" gets said). Hell Japan has tons of gay bars/clubs and places to interact too.

I'm not a "social justice type." I am LITERALLY a behavioral sociologist specializing in international human rights, minority rights, and sexuality who wrote my thesis on masculinity and male socialization. I have spent the past eight years of my life studying and experiencing first hand enormous amounts of information and modern science on why humans are the way they are, why they act as they do, how their brains work both biologically/psychologically, and how all of that interplays into why minorities are mistreated and maligned throughout history. Most specifically, I study men and how they are corrupted by broken systems of culture and socialization. I'm not talking out of my ass lol. This is my job.

Minorities want equity not just equality. They want the right to be as ridiculous as "normal people" are about stupid shit (like Canadian straights rioting over fucking hockey as an example) and not go to prison, literally be murdered, or whatever. Most of us though? We just want to get married, be able to adopt if we so desire, not be fired from our jobs for being queer, not be beaten on the metro, or denied basic liberties for said queerness or the color of our skin. Anyone that says otherwise is either a 4chan/reddit troll, wildly ignorant, doesn't actually interact with minorities in any extensive juncture whatsoever, or all of the above.

Humans owe the most basic capacity of decency to one another until one is wronged by another. Then the wronged party is owed. I cannot even begin to describe the wrongs, violence, and horrors that I have studied and seen that minorities have experienced and still do. They are completely within their rights to be wildly angry, and many do not know how to channel that anger productively which looks like "shitty" behavior. I have the privilege of knowing how to channel my rage, and teaching others how to do so.

Nihilism or feeling nothing but apathy isnt an excuse to ignore the bad and do nothing. But I understand it, as Ive been there before myself. I grew though, and educated myself out of it even when it was extremely uncomfortable to do so. Anyone can do that, most just dont because its hard.

Well, don't expect people to do hard things. Lol.

I dont. So I only pay mind to the people who show a willingness to try however special and however few they might be.