well i beileve in both spiritual and supernatural. i mean, i believe in a higher power and the beyond, but i also believe in things going on in this planet that cannot happen naturally. ghosts, evp, all that. that's supernatural. souls, heaven, god. that's spiritual. at least to me. remember during the plagues of egypt? the raining of frogs? that's been scientifically proven to happen, nothing supernatural about it. the only odd thing to happen ws the death of the firstborn son. every other plague can be explained.

"If we are spiritual beings does it not stand to reason that we have biological functions and organs that are capable of these feats?"
because if we had biological functions it wouldn't be spiritual now would it? Its the argument of wether the human being has a soul or not....a long, bitter, teeth grinding argument that has evidence pointing both ways...i hate it
What your talking about is non-physical stuff (stuff is an ok word to use with philosophy) and physical stuff. The only non-physical stuff I know of that has physical properties is gravity. You can feel it and empirically test and measure it, but you can see, sense, capture, etc... Magnetic fields, on the other hand, can be created artificially and contained.....this is not supernatural since we understand it's origins and how to create it. bleh ive said enough

typo: but you can't see, sense, capture, etc

I'm a skeptic all the way, but have an open mind to possibility. I'm open to anything if it can be proven to me, then I'll gladly admit I was wrong to doubt.

I do believe in some things that could be called supernatural but I think that it is more a brain function. In other words, we have no idea how the brain works fully yet (not even halfway) so these visions or feelings might be something innate to us that we can indeed learn about and control.

The soul debate is tricky. So I won't even go there :P

Ive had the long standignbelifefs in alot of wonky stuff. Im spiritual but not inthe conventuanl manner Im belive in gods spirits both benvolent andharmfull I belive in life after death and many other strange thigns but not quite the way the modern churchs look at it
this world is fillof mystery and wonder and alot of neat strangness

I looked up that sometimes theres "spiritual visions" that dont use drugs, but this is comming from a "king of the hill episode"

Where, you faste for 24 hours and push your body to exaustion...

I dont know if i could realy do that but if its true in doing that it might be helpful, ...i forget what the REAL name of it is.

Also, its more a guiding tool kind of thing rather than anything otherwise.

I do agree with you though that theres just things that CANT be explained, but some things are easy to explain, but not easaly comprehend

My focus on the supernatural isn't on the spiritual side or inner being.

My focus is on the supernatural creatures that may or may not have existed.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Monsters

~Otaku-Man

I wonder what the base chemical differences are between water and wine.
I smell a business empire..
*eyeballs a 5 gallon jug of Yosemite Water*

There's a sub group of masters that are capable of far more impressive feats of transmutation.

The number of which that have done so under controlled and observed conditions: 0

They neither bother nor care.

In that case, I am capable of lifting myself off the ground with pure thought. But I don't care about such trivialities as "evidence" and "testing." In fact, I never use anyhting made by science. This message is being typed with my mind.

My MAGNETIC mind.

You missed the other stock excuse: That the presence of non-believers causes their powers to stop working.

Now, how many of them care about feeding starving children? $1,000,000US for a simple demonstration could fill a lot of empty bellies.

I doubt any of them care about feeding starving children. It's kind of a hallmark of the kinds of people that achieve these things that they simply stop caring about the world at large and instead focus on themselves and their own personal development.

Yet another handy excuse, and one that calls into question why you believe the claims about these people.

Nebulous 'Masters of Ancient Wisdom' are hardly a new idea. Unsurprisingly, evidence of their existence as people tends to be lacking, never mind any evidence of any alleged powers.

Probably because I met one of their students and he demonstrated the stuff :P

Just what did he demonstrate, and what were the conditions like?

Something involving vibrating palm. The effect of which was the he slapped a volunteer on the back and a welt in the exact shape of his hand appeared. This may not sound surprising but just try and see if you can replicate it without first covering your hand in paint X3

Another effect that he did to me was that during a meditation exercise he touched my lower back with his finger. About a minute later my body temperature started to rise so much that I had to stop everything and start removing clothing. I was drenched in sweat pretty quickly. Still no idea how he did that without using any pressure at all.

The conditions were that we were in a conference room in a hotel. Pretty small, and all these examples took place within 2-3 feet of me.

So much for the amazing feats you originally described.

The first has nothing magical about it. It isn't easy to do, but it is just a matter of having enough strength and the skill to deliver the blow correctly.

For the second, take a close look at what was going on: You were in a suggestible state and you were in a relatively small room with, from the sounds of it, several people in it, (i.e. a room that was going to be getting rather warm on its own). The suggestibility can be exploited in two ways, first by directing you to feel hot, (exploiting the room conditions), the second by saying/implying that 'something' is going to happen and then claiming success no matter what happens, (you get hot and he made you get hot, you don't and he helped you withstand the heat).


All in all, rather typical. Claims that great things can be done, but all that is actually brought forward is parlour tricks.

An important thing to remember is that claiming to have learned from masters who have withdrawn from the world is a very common bit. It is generally less a sign of special wisdom and more a sign of having taken a page from Helena Blavatsky.

I'm quite aware of the suggestibility angle. From an outside observer it may seem that that is a reasonable explanation. However none of us knew what to anticipate or even if or even who would do anything to us. Many of the effects I saw were indeed the result of the conditioning you mentioned and I'm quite aware of that. However the two effects I mentioned were the two that could not be explained through those methods.

I just _explained_ one of them, and you seem to have missed the stock trick of claiming whatever happens, (or even nothing happening), as a success.

So, only self-absorbed people learn how to do these things? Once they learn, they turn into smug asshole hermits?

I'd think that many people, once finding out they had some special power, would run to a number of their friends and shout, "Watch this! It's so cool!"

Oh, wait... the are the people that claim to have invented perpetual motion machines or cars that run on water.

For the love of God, you guys, I just wanted cheap wine. XD

They don't "find out" they have to spend decades learning and practicing these things. It's something they devote their entire life to and in order to have that kind of dedication you kind of need to be self-absorbed. You may start out with noble intentions but the amount of dedication needed to achieve these feats is not something that doesn't change you.

Growth for superphysical ability on this planet generally relies on the need for the new or bettering of the ability. Things that effect the physical are brought about generally when another is forcing something upon them. When you've been through that hell for enough lives you learn to do powerful things to prevent it happening again, but by that point the person is already jaded from witnessing bad things happen to them time and time again.

I always thought the water-to-wine trick was a variation of the rice-to-water trick magicians do all the time.

Who knows, but can you imagine the bundle you'd make selling miracle wine to churches and hyperreligious purveyors? =p

You can make just as much selling regular wine and claiming its miraculous.

The chinese government apparently has a book that contains all the names and locations of the known masters in china. They're kind of trying to stamp out these ancient practices so many have moved abroad.

The reason that it gets linked to the supernatural is that most examples people come up with would be supernatural if it were real.

Look at your own examples: You start out with a one that is literally nothing less than magic. Your second example does have some reality, (meditative techniques can be useful, and it does involve exercise), but is largely the same kind of magic as reiki. Then you go on to something that has only been demonstrated by known fakes, (some self admitted, others not).

You do reach something that is real, but then read a lot into it. You don't need to reach into the realms of the spiritual to explain hallucinations.

The power of mind and body is great. I feel that spiritual and supernatural aren't really separate either, but intertwined.

Mifmaf I have to ask, what religion, or what spirituality to do you practice, or subscribe the most to?

I myself believe in miracles, especially as a Christian.

However I have been reading into Buddhist teachings, specifically those put forth in The Compass of Zen by the late Zen Master Seung Sahn (which is really more of an in depth look at the three main schools of Buddhism than it is a Zen study-book). And, though I am nowhere near close to calling myself a practitioner of these beliefs, I have seen and felt the effects of meditation.

And due to my nature, belief in ghosts, magic, spirits, that sort of thing, I am also inclined to give credence to Taoist, Native American, and Traditional African spiritual practices and beliefs.

What intrigues me, however, is how much of such spiritual "abilities" (to be blunt) are actually manifestations of the spirit or magic or what have you, and how much is the result of placebo. There is really no denying the power of the human mind in such matters as self-healing, but given the effects I have heard of placebos achieving, I am... Not skeptical per se, but rather I am interested in how much is placebo, how much is actual "spiritual effects".

The placebo effect itself is quite useful and can be immensely powerful. Many modern popular medicines rely on the placebo effect to work at all. You bring up an important point however, there is a risk that we try to convince ourselves that something perfectly ordinary is miraculous or that we feel things that aren't even happening. These are things any practitioner has to deal with and has to come to realize and understand what they are capable of convincing themselves of. The beliefs must therefore be independent of faith and have to hold up to scrutiny. One of the most important things to keep in mind when practicing these things is to not imagine anything, don't pretend to form a ball of energy or anything like that. Because if you imagine it you may believe that you're actually doing it.

Spiritual abilities are so substantial and so out of the ordinary that there is no way to confuse them with placebo. They either manifest as something completely physical or they even affect the world around the practitioner.

An effect that a friend of mine experienced when we practiced qi gong charge buildup resulted in her rushing to take her rings off as her hands were expanding from the blood flow. We then spent a few minutes tele-poking each other, its such a weird feeling; like holding repelling magnets near eachother. You can't anticipate these kinds of effects so even placebo won't help explain them.

There is always a physical component to these kinds of things. I've used meditation in an emergency situation to alter blood flow so that my face wouldn't be paralyzed (blocked sinus cavity).

now if only they had a sugar pill to reverse the aging process...adulthood does not suit me...

I know. I've experienced a similar phenomena after reading a book on Shamanism. It included being able to see "life forces" surrounding people. It was interesting, however the book itself was very New Age-y (and I mean that in the sense that it threw around metaphysical terms and assumptions as if they were truth without any sort of prior discussion, despite it being the "first" book)... And I lost faith in it when he had "mini-chapters" devoted to cool things, only to plug another one of his books before "revealing" anything. Real spirituality or not, I don't like my beliefs to be in the form of "gotta catch 'em all".

I've always wanted to try out and test various spiritual practices such as the qi gong you mentioned, but it isn't something that was ever smiled upon in my family, nor have I had the chance to obtain the methods for doing such things. More so than that, I'm pretty sure that it would end up being more of a novelty for me than anything else, which defeats the point of such spiritual practices. However that does not stop me from being interested, and, were I able to find someone trained or knowledgeable in such activities I would gladly participate.

As for my Christianity, I take a less literal interpretation to the Bible. I believe that the authors of the various books were divinely inspired and wrote specifically for the good of their time, and as such literal interpretations of certain events can be downplayed for the importance of the message. In addition, the ambiguity of the Greek language allows for strange and wildly different interpretations of certain phrases and passages. In addition, when Jesus abolished the special rules of the Pharisees, I feel that this also applies to the vast majority of the Old Testament rules (those created by Jewish leaders as seen in Judges and Leviticus), thereby leaving the teachings of Jesus specifically and the Ten Commandments.

Essentially, I feel that the Bible is at its most basic core, the Golden Rule, with hundreds of examples on how it is important, and how that by being virtuous in this manner we may truly experience Heaven. Whether or not God exists or whether Heaven exists is superfluous, as I will only know when I die, and by then it will not matter.

As a practicing Christian, my worship of God and Christ is more in reaffirming the goodness of devoting myself to being more selfless and kind in action.

Sorry for the long post, kind of a long way for me to say: I don't know, because it is ultimately not important.

If you want to learn qi gong, get this DVD set:
http://www.amazon.com/Understanding-Qigong-DVD1-YMAA-kung/dp/B000HXDM82/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&s=dvd&qid=1253025844&sr=8-2

It's very mechanical and the instructor is very good at explaining how things work. Be prepared to get a biology textbook if you're not already familiar with human internal anatomy. He has lessons on each DVD.

Saved the bookmark.

I'll have to look into it when I get some time. Because I don't know what qi gong is... And learning is always fun.

As a christian you should ask yourself, would the omnipotent creator of everything be so simple as to pass down its teachings in a book? Or would that information be built into the very fabric of everything in creation?

it is said there is a code written into the fabric of the bible...this was debunked by someone pointing out similar codes can be found in several other classic texts of similar width and character (that is, letter) count, such as moby dick...this doesnt disuade me...people believe that the order of the universe is written in everything from the heavens to the lines on the backs of Beatles...maybe its just the coding of the universe shining through, like 1s and 0s in programming...

nobody has ever managed to acurately predict anything with these codes of course, on my same analogy, the code would have to contain possible outcomes for every possible variable, kinda like one of those videogames with a bazillion different endings that depend entirely on what you did, with whom, and how long it took to do it

all that aside, perfection will never be found in a wall or word crafted by mortal hands, it may just not be there to be found

now that's some interesting stuff ^^

problem with most people today is that they have forgotten all the way down how to do it and never were taught in the first place. I myself am trying to "relearn" such... but is hard >.<

as spiritual beings we are capable of many things, like I said, we had just forgotten how to do it... it is funny that many times I've seen it happen around me and people have to always say "soooooo fake" no matter what it is >.>... personally I'm surprised that drinking water and peeing is still real to most... XD

The more I've learned the more I've realized that I always knew these things, but never realized it. It's weird.

true that ^^, and I know the feeling, I always knew there was something else but never would be able to explain it myself x_x

Well... I've seen an empty and secluded trash bin randomly start bouncing around on the floor... and that's just in this life. :P

You know what they say; sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic. Miracles and such are just the practice of advanced technology. In a way, we all have the potential to do miracles =)

I'm really not one for semantics. Whatever it's called, a lot of it is real, and that's enough for me. :]

Show me how to exercise your dantien and we'll talk.

how in the name of Hel did you manage to slog through all this....i didnt...so this may be a repeat...

theres always Lazarus to contend with how ever, it is written that he said "do not worship of me, for i am only the messenger" well, he didnt say it like that, but i like that phrasing...

further more, Gnostics believe that christians have it all wrong, that the god who created this world is evil...and by catholic standards (pride, envy, and WRATH are among the traits that catholics call deadly sins, and then go on to say that god bosts of them...many, far from demonizing, revere the bringer of light for for delivering mankind from ignorance, and further, the woman, for being chosen by the serpent to be first to receive the knowledge of good and evil

of course, there is no dirrect connection between Lucifer (Greek, not name, actually, but word. Meaning, light bringer) and the Serpent (something Geiman jumped on in one of his better books), chiefly because the party known as Lucifer didnt exist in the old testimant, early christians by and far just took any un-named party who had a disagreement with god and called him Satan (hebrew, word, translation, adversary)

of course, all that is just what i know, what i believe is...well...i believe this...every creature that is capable of thought is born with an innate nature...that nature is tempered by situation, follow your heart, forget the part from hamlet, give of your self as you will, and receive from others as they give, but above all else, to thine own self be true

(also, as far as doing seemingly impossible things, people bend the universe into pretzels trying to get it to conform to their limited knowledge, the world, land of shit and sorrow that it is, is what it is because people actually like it this way...go figure...i can never remember who said things, only what they said, but it is written, there is a theory...the universe, in all its vastness, all its complexity, would, in an instant, vanish, if someone ever figured out every aspect, unraveled every mystery, solved every puzzle...only to be replaced by something vastly more bizzare and confusing and in all ways queer then that which preceded it...this theory also states this actually happens on a fairly regular basis)

one...final note...ALL HAIL THE FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER! MAY HIS NOODLY APPENDAGE TOUCH YOU ALL! (only in the most appropriate of places, of course)

Science...
Many would like to believe that science is completely separate from the spiritual. Though it is true that for a scientific discovery to be valid, it must be seen, even today we can prove things in science that cannot be seen: subsubatomic partials, or does the proof override the need to be seen? Either way, the scientific method can be used to prove things that are called paranormal, supernatural, spiritual, ect.

The deep dark truth of the matter is: matter is energy, and energy can be manipulated. Why can it be manipulated with one's spirit? I don't know, but I have witnessed uncountable times that it can be manipulated and controlled. Why can some manipulate it and not others? Knowledge and skill: it takes time to learn how to manipulate energy and then, like a child learning how to walk, our ability to do more takes practice and growth.

Spirituality and Science.
I no longer understand, or maybe I should say "believe in", the difference between the two. I hear through my spirit that someone is thinking about me and I call them on my cell phone. Both the feeling and the cell signal are "invisible" forces of energy. The race of humans may come to understand how these two things are one, but currently their fear of shattering their religions and willful ignorance to not look past their religions holds them back.

Experiences caused by drugs are usually distorted by them, from what I've heard.

And here comes the idiot to ruin the fun If you wanna see a miracle look inside mah pants! bada bing bada boom! Horrible joke i know Sorry couldnt resist

i believe we can go beyond what we think is human limitations i mean look what shaolin monks can do when they control their chi they can do some amazing things that would seem inhuman :)

thats why im so fascinated with martial arts it taps into a part of our body that can do incredible things :D

They actually use physics to do those amazing things. No chi manipulation involved. It's pretty neat how they exploit the weirdest physical quirks to do their things tho X3

whats about stuff like being able to break stuff with their heads that would normaly smash a skull? also other things like in here? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7qHL2PSpecI

Yeah oddly enough it's just really careful and deliberate use of the body that enables such things.

well its still awesome :3

I also think that most things can be proven, and that some supernatural things are really quite smple. Though I still wonder about how Chris Angel does what he does.

Chris Angels secret: It's all staged and he uses special effects ;)

Ah really? I should've known that. :3.