Communism is much much older than most people think. That is, the earliest form of communism is in early history when humans are in tribes, even the native American ones.

There is nothing truely wrong with being or doing socialism. It is just a way of government.

Agreed. Its all propaganda done by the republicans do discredit Obama and his politics. Instead of having a rational discussion they call him things he isnt so they can scare the people away from the idea that a public option is actually a very good idea.

It is also funny how people dont want a 1 Trillion Dollar spending on Helathcare but are perfectly fine with 3 Trillion being spend for the War on Terror.

Or how everyone seems fine with the fact that under Bush the Government was expanded greatly and a giant security apparatus was put in place and whatnot but freak out when people suggest the idea that the Government should also run healthcare

Or the notion that Fascism, Nazism and Socialism are all the same.

You know, I live in a Social Democracy (Germany) and we are actually afraid that the social aspect of our Republic gets lost due to problems in cost and whatnot, wihch could be solved if we would create more jobs and go back to a production society that produces stuff then a one that just spends. More jobs means more children, means more tax payers means higher tax revenues means a better society for all.

But yeah, you are being called a radical if you support Government or anything related to socialism, even if its a Social Democracy. The whole libertarian notion that a societies would work better without goverment is flawed to no end because that would mean all people would stop being assholes overnight and would actually work together then against each other.

I see time and time again that people are greedy little fucktards that dont want to help others and need literally to be forced to be more social towards other because they are full of themselves and thing that sharing wealth is a bad thing.

Thats why I do hate pure capitalism, because its based on the idea that profits is the only motive to drive things on. No we simply cant work for the shake of advancing our society and humanity as a whole and maybe make things better, we always have to stuff our pockets full of cash, using the second and third world nations as a cheap work force that we can drain dry and keep on a low level while we live in luxury.

I recently saw a documentary about the conflict in Kongo and where it came from and it was discovers that due to the natural resources all kind of parties where involved in the conflict and that big cooperations kept the Kongo instable so they could use the population ans a cheap workforce to get ore and other stuff. The companies furled the conflict and made money with it. Hooray Capitalism!

But oh no, dont tell that to anyone that thinks Capitalism is a neat idea, because then you are a communist!

With regulation in place, such things could be prevented and people wont get rich from War. FDR said once that he dosent want that one millionaire is created through WW2, but today it seems like a normal thing to get rich from armed conflicts and keep puring weapons into small nations, maximizing your profits from selling those
weapons.

Gah.......anyway, getting off topic.

excellently said (Orwell concurred totally)

While I probably wouldn't have a problem if Obama was a Muslim (unless he was an Islamofacist,) I would have a problem if he was a Socialist, since, in my last comment, I explained how Socialism was a bad idea, and I wouldn't want to elect a guy with bad ideas.

Then again, Obama was not elected for his ideas, but because he wasn't a Republican and he wasn't a Clinton. Mr. Hope-Change is rather naive in thinking its for any other reason.

Don;t you like your post office? Your cheap medicine? Your Roads? Your refund cheques?

Fair Service? Service to for all the people? Its basicly a Government Run Buiesness. The Government doesn't have to run it, why doesn't the Government just privatize the mail service and hand things over to Fedex and UPS?

These things don't seem to be Socialist based but they are. Before Firemen people got together and did the whole bucket system to put out fires. Before times they were actually privately funded fire brigades. Today their are the Professionaly Paid Firefighters and the Volunteer Firefighters what do you think?

Lets see well besides the point that those things USED to be Piravtely funded jobs in the world (and int he case of Blackwater, Fedex, etc. They still are).

So. How about the Metro then eh?

http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2009/.....metro-service/

Tea Party protestors are complaining about the lack of...government-run services.


Now -what else can happen to make this story even more funny?


Well....

Back in July HR3288, a Transportation and HUD appropriations bill, came up for a vote. It included $150 million for emergency maintenance funding for the DC Metro.

Brady voted against it.
http://www.govtrack.us/congress/vot.....vote=h2009-637

IF YOU will read, you will notice that the Bill hasn't come into effect yet. It just passed both houses YESTERDAY differences still needed to be resolved and it needs to be signed by Obama.

Ah politics, it riles one's hackles up no?

No hard feelings on just how we feel differently on political systems?

So again, you don't support the Socialism in our government? So if they were taken away congratsz no taxes for you but no military to defend you, get used to those potholes in the roads, and sorry but you have to get 10,000 somehow to fix that hole in your head thats leaking blood and pus.

Karl Marx supported Lincoln actually. Sent him a letter too for his upholding of the Socialist idea of Equality.

SO you do see my point here! Good you have opened your eyes to true Socialism yes?

Moderation and the People! Capitalism and Socialism are both good, but when things get out of control with either you have both spiraling out of control into the control of a select few while harship and violence is bestowed upon the common people.
Neither the Full Revolution of Marx nor the wanton Laizze-Faire of the Gilded Age is what we have today in the United States for nearly a hundred years or so and look how we turned out?

So again, you don't support the Socialism in our government? So if they were taken away congratsz no taxes for you but no military to defend you, get used to those potholes in the roads, and sorry but you have to get 10,000 somehow to fix that hole in your head thats leaking blood and pus.

Karl Marx supported Lincoln actually. Sent him a letter too for his upholding of the Socialist idea of Equality.

Equality was never a Socialist idea. Marx showed a lot of hubris and a lack of knowledge if he did say that. Moreover, provide public services that the public (the entire public, not just a sort-of majority,) decided that they needed, such as a military. You know, that entity that existed long before the idea of public service.

Now, I can certainly get used to driving a road with potholes. I'm tough enough to endure a little hardship like that. Moreover, I don't have to worry about getting 10,000 to repair a hole in my head, because, as of right now at least, I don't have a hole in my head. But, that is beside the point, and it has always been beside the point. If my road and my head had holes in them, they would be my responsibility. If I took money from one of my neighbors to fix a hole in my road or my head, that would be wrong; therefore, how right can it be if I took money from all of my neighbors to fix a hole in my road or my head. In fact, thinking I should take money from my neighbors might be cause by a hole in my head.

You would probably interested to know that Marx was motivated partly because he could never control his spending, and was continually fighting off creditors.

Yet Equality is a idea that Socialism holds dear, while Capitalism disdains.

No it doesn't. Under Capitalism, America earned the name of "Land of Opportunity." Inherently, capitalism should allow anyone willing to put in the work to advance. The reason the system is unfair is because people are unfair, and because people are unfair, a socialism, as we have seen time and time again, will end up being unfair too. You are blaming the wrong thing, here. You could invent a system where everyone just had to say "Bogey fart" to gain access to all the resources of the universe, and you will end up with some getting short-changed because they didn't pronounce it correctly.

Blame the people who are at fault. Only the basest people blame anything else.

Well lets see, my own father has put in 20+ years as a Director and Dispatcher at a Freight Company. He has been a pretty loyal and pretty hard working employee of the company. Then in '08 the company was bought out by another company, but you see they didn't need as many workers and so my father lost his job as well as many other people that he knew. I'm blaming the right people and systems alright.

Bogey Fart?

Well, let's see, I was kicked out of a ultraconservative college, was fired from a job with no explanation, then did odd jobs until I was able to get a steady part-time job that doesn't pay that well. No, you aren't the blaming the right people or the right system. You shouldn't be blaming the system at all: that is modern superstition, to levy charges against an inanimate object as it acted maliciously under its own accord.

Sure, we get dealt bad cards, but under capitalism, you are expected to play the hand you are dealt. Under a socialism, you are expected to demand a new set of cards, preferably from the guy who is having better luck than you.

Besides you for some reason keep talking about Marx, your like Jan Brady "Marx, Marx, Marx."

You keep focusing on the Marxist models of Socialism. Overthrow of the Government and Capitalist pig dogs blah blah blah. There is more to Socialism then Marx and Lenin and their followers.

Such as? They may be more tactful, but under the surface is the same old game. Besides, you mentioned him too.

You mentioned him first and I had to keep telling you that I'm not talking about the Marxist model. You seem to confuse all socialism with Marx. When I told you I don't support Marx's extreme vision of Socialism.

What I have been trying to explain to you is that we have socialism. Bush before he left office approved for a massive amount of taxpayers money to support failing buisnesses. We are a partly socialist society in the mdoerate sense that we want equality for the people on the social level. Medicine for everyone, helping students get a education, welfare for the disabled, Pensions for Vetrens and their Families of our wars (My Grandmother for example when my Grandfather died and she lives alone was able to use my Grandfather's pension from years in the Army then the Marines to support herself and her Asthma and when she Fell down in her garage untill she could get a job).

Its not bad to support socialist options so why are the far right vilifying it?


Its not UBER EVOLS OF HELLSZ AND ATHEISM SDESTROYUDESTROY OUR GREATZ MONEYMONIES SOCIETIEZ to support a moderate Socialism.

And what I am trying to explain to you is that socialism is a bad idea, and we are currently suffering the effects of unwise and unwarranted government intervention. If we are living under it, then let us undo it. By your argument, we should have kept the so-called "Gilded Age" America because it already existed.

Honestly mate. What I am trying to explain to you is that 'Socialism' and ;Capitalism' are both bad ideas when taken to their extreames.

Mildly their alright. Since FDR things have been in a balance of both Capitalism and Socialism pressing against each other through government actions, both have been growing but keeping each other in check from giving ground to the other. Image a glass of Lemonade. Too much Lemon and its too sour for one's taste, too much sugar and its too sweet for one's taste. We have had the right mix of 'Lemon' and 'Sugar' for a while, a long while.

Well as for Government Intervention lets take the issue of the economy under Bush. The Recession itself has been going on since early '08 and was coming for us even before then. The first action was by Bush of 'Government Intervention' to keep the Credit Companies from going bankrupt. Now if you were in Bush's situation what would you have done? Let said companies crash and the economy sort itself out?

You do know what the "Gilded Age" of America is? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gilded_age#Politics

After the 'Gilded Age' came the 'Progressive Era'. I love the Progressive Era because it was a start of Reform within the United States, doing away with the un-checked corruption of the Gilded Age. Theodore Roosevelt(Winning as a Republican and then taking second place in 1916 under the Bull Moose or Progressive Party where Wilson won but still he did his fair share of Progressivism as well) was the Hero of this era, starting the Progressive Party and Championing movements such as Trust-Breaking, Environmentalism, and Social Justice.

Now Progressivism is a Mild form of Socialism. Would you, if you could. Undo the history changing events of the Progressive Era just because it saw a unprecedented level of government intervention and regulation into the Economy?

Yes, I am aware of all these historical facts, and I'm getting offended that you keep reiterating them to me like a child, and my opinion hasn't changed. Moreover, you keep ignoring my arguments to keep repeating this nonsense over and over after I have disproven them. That may be what they taught you in the government-funded schools, but that doesn't work here.

You need to prove that Progressivism and mild Socialism are good things. You can't assume that, keep blathering on about it and think you are making a rational argument. I have argued that socialistic ideas have had a negative impact, and I have proven that they have a negative impact, and you have no proven anything to the contrary. Moreover, you need to prove that its morally right. That's what really matters here. I can prove socialism inherently wrong, but you can only repeat your leasons. I'm through. Feel free to add whatever words in your own praise hereafter.

Whatever. I still stand by the whole Socialism is not the evils. Maybe you will see that one day, maybe you won't. Either way Thats how America is awesome.

Alright. We have plenty of Socialism impacts I am well aware of those. Everyone is. Though how is it and in what form of socialism do these negative impacts come about? I say in their most extreame form.

Capitalism negatives? I am not batting down the whole system of capitalism just when it is left to be wanton you get the whole crap of Enron today and Tea Pot Scandal of yesterday.

Progressivism lets see.....

Woman Sufferage. Thats good? Women voting right?

CHild Labor Laws and minimum wage. Encouraging Children like you and I once were and our anscestors to not have to work at a early age and instead get a education to rise up the socio-economic chain. Minimum Wage, set a basic level of wage for workers to be able to support themselves and not get taken for a hike by money scrunching employers.

Over 42million acres being transformed into speciala reas of interest to preserve the natural environment, Conservationism.

Trust Busting, prohibiting Monopolies so instead of monolithic companies their are a multitude of smaller companies-There so you see Mild Socialism/Progressivism actually helps Capitalism. Keeping it from growing out of control.

Well you seemed not to know.

Neither Socialism or Capitalism is perfect as I have said and said.

Socialism while you do have more Social Reforms and the possibility to bring on a equal Distribution of Wealth, the modius to help has been subverted by groups such as the Communists of the USSR or North Korea to turn things into a Dictatorship that mockeries a 'Socialist Paradise'.

Capitalism it certainly has its pros when the world is in a capitalist system such as liberal freedom of job opportunities but it also can become screwed in the exploit for the mission of Social Darwinism or Colonial Exploitation. If it weren't for Human Compassion then Capitalism would be a cold thing. It is a system that is very prone to thee vice of Greed.

The problem is that the S word's been tossed around by the Right Wing republicans for so long that its really lost any real meaning to most people. Most americans have just been brainwashed into believing its just completely evil. Its just a form of scare tactics that riles up the fringiest parts of the party. Same as the new thing with Death Panels, Claims we're unsafe now that Gitmo's in the process of closing, etc.

Whats worse is, many of these protesters actually do want all the changes mentioned in the bills but they don't want government involved, at all. Unfortunately there are some things that won't change without intervention.

Like with that tea party thing on 9/12 i seen a few clips on cnn where there was this woman who was saying that she wants the healthcare reform but doesnt want the government involved in it. She though the insurance co's should make the changes themeselves. Considering that the insurance co's have been dropping people who've gotten sick or have dreaded pre existing conditions for years in order to obtain more money for their own pockets, why on earth do these protesters thing the insurance co's will just change their policies? Out of the goodness of their hearts? Not likely to happen.

Even worse is the hypocrisy. Services such as medicare, post offices, and social security are forms of socialism. They cant stand the thoughts of some public option, but hell would have to freeze over before they'd willingly allow those services to be done away with.

people would start complaining if we took everything away that could be considered socialism in this country.

I work in a pharmacy, its not uncommon that people can't pay their medication, why?

Me - "Ok, your total comes to $"210.34
Customer - "Why is it so high? I've been getting this medication for months for $10, I need it to take care of my illness!"
Me - "I'm sorry, but you're insurance company didn't want to cover it"
Customer - "Why not?"
Me - "That's something you need to talk to them about, we can't help you here."

I feel horrible each time i have to say this. It makes me sick but its the truth. Me and the pharmacist tell them to contact their doctor and get them involved, maybe it'll help.

But that's not half of it, sometimes the insurance company will get information on the patient wrong, and it wont go through. So we have to call them up, go through their automated service, only to be put on hold till we get a person. All the while, the customer has to wait till we get ahold of them, or we get backed up and other people have to wait. its horrible.

And protesters want THEM to fix healthcare? Ha! And whenever someone asks why their perscription costs more than usual, or wont cover it, I can only reply "because they can"

I pay $100 dollars a month (example number) for them to cover me if I get sick. I dont get sick that month, guess what? They just made $100 profit. next month, i get in a car accident and run a bill of $200 dollars. Ok, they'll cover it, since that basically balances it out since i paid another $100 to them. Well, I still need medication the next month, which'll run over $100. Now the insurance company is in the red, but not a lot, so its ok still. But then I get sick the following month, badly, and start to need more medication. Well, now the company is losing too much of a profit, so they cut me off, or start charging me more a month (or increase my deductible at the start of the year, which is they cover nothing, and I have to pay the full price for my prescriptions until i pay it off), or they will not cover as much as they use to on the prescription, increasing my copay.

here's what people forget about insurance companies...THEY ARE A PROFIT ORGANIZATION. Think of it as they are your boss (cept you pay them rather than they pay you), and if they start to go in the red, guess what? People get fired and dropped, or are charged by paying more.

If anything, it needs to be known more on how insurance companies work rather than asking them to fix things.

On to socialism and communism...
On paper, and when they were first idealized, they seemed like really good forms of gov't that would work. Actually, on paper, they SHOULD work. Sadly, none of it calculated in the 'human' factor, in that with so much power, it gets abused and people suffer.

I think you are mistaking Marxist-Leninism for All Brands of Socialism.

Take a look at Portugal, its a Socialist nation and it hasn't gone down the toilet.

India is a Non-Marxist Leninist Socialist state and its the steadiest economic growing country.

You see, the Socialist or COmmunist Dictatorships seem to always crop up through violent revolution (USSR, NK, Vietnam, China, etc) while the Peaceful Democratic ones come about through Democracy (India and Portugal) and likewise if the public doesn't like it the Democratic country can outvote and out do the Socialist Parties (UK, France).

If you argue that because the US has welfare and the bailouts of Busha nd Obama then the US is Socialist.

Personally I have explained I am a Centrist on the issue. I approve of a Free Market with regulation to check excess and abuses by companies and I approve of Governmental Intervention when needed is for the best to push the economy for the better.