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Socialism Part 3: Shades of Socialist Government
16 years ago
General
i think the Socialist brand ina whole has been marred by its more 'Evil' examples in the world like the USSR or Burma.
The Socialist forms of government come about through different ways and have different flavors in my own view.
Communist and Dictatorships crop up in countries that have very little histories of Democracy at at all and/or through Violent Uprisings of a old Oppressive Regime. Like the USSR which before was the horribly bad Tsar Russian Empire or China which went from hundreds of Years Old Kingdom to a Young Republic that was marred by Nationalist Right-Wing hard Fisted leaders (Chiang-Kai-Shek).
While the more milder Socialist or at least Socialist tinged (Welfare States, etc) come about through Democratic Means in countries that have had long histories of democracy or at least political liberalism. Take the West European countries such as the United kingdom and France for example as well as Portugal which did had on and off short lived democracies but in the '70s threw off a Authoritarian Corpratist Dictatorship and the Colonial Empire. It did go through a brief period of uncertainty but Moderate heads took the victory and now we have todays Portugal
You see, the Socialist or COmmunist Dictatorships seem to always crop up through violent revolution (USSR, NK, Vietnam, China, etc) while the Peaceful Democratic ones come about through Democracy (India and Portugal) and likewise if the public doesn't like it the Democratic country can outvote and out do the Socialist Parties (UK, France).
If you argue that because the US has welfare and the bailouts of Bush and Obama then the US is Socialist. Or going much farther back the Progressive Era which introduced unprecedented levels of Government Intervention into the economy but also established such things as Child Labor Laws, Minimum Wage, Voting Rights for Women, Conservationism, and the Pure Food and Drug Acts. Most enacted mostly under Teddy Roosevelt! A Republican President!!!!
Now in these Successfuly Socialist/Leaning and Democratic States we have something of a balance bewteen Socialist Ideals and Capitalist Ideals. They are self-limiting to each other. Socialism Limits the Excesses of Capitalism that manifest as Social Darwinism, Greed, and Corprate Evils (Monopolies, Enron, etc) through people and government intervention. While Capitalism promotes economic activity making it possible to raise up one's living status and the freedom of personal opinion as Democracy thus eliminating any possible silly Dictatorship takeovers or radical changes to the economic and political make-up of the government and society.
Thus a Purely Socialist Government would be Marxist and a Purely Socialist one would be Corpratist.
Seeing as the United States is neither Marxist or Coproatist it is a Centerist. A Social Democracy.
Here from Wikipedia is the Idealology of Social Democracy that Democratic Soicalists support-
"A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.
An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.
Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.
A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.
A secular and a socially progressive policy.
Immigration and multiculturalism.
Fair trade over free trade.
A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.
Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties. "
Can you tell me something on this list that the United States does not have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social.....ocracy#Present
The Socialist forms of government come about through different ways and have different flavors in my own view.
Communist and Dictatorships crop up in countries that have very little histories of Democracy at at all and/or through Violent Uprisings of a old Oppressive Regime. Like the USSR which before was the horribly bad Tsar Russian Empire or China which went from hundreds of Years Old Kingdom to a Young Republic that was marred by Nationalist Right-Wing hard Fisted leaders (Chiang-Kai-Shek).
While the more milder Socialist or at least Socialist tinged (Welfare States, etc) come about through Democratic Means in countries that have had long histories of democracy or at least political liberalism. Take the West European countries such as the United kingdom and France for example as well as Portugal which did had on and off short lived democracies but in the '70s threw off a Authoritarian Corpratist Dictatorship and the Colonial Empire. It did go through a brief period of uncertainty but Moderate heads took the victory and now we have todays Portugal
You see, the Socialist or COmmunist Dictatorships seem to always crop up through violent revolution (USSR, NK, Vietnam, China, etc) while the Peaceful Democratic ones come about through Democracy (India and Portugal) and likewise if the public doesn't like it the Democratic country can outvote and out do the Socialist Parties (UK, France).
If you argue that because the US has welfare and the bailouts of Bush and Obama then the US is Socialist. Or going much farther back the Progressive Era which introduced unprecedented levels of Government Intervention into the economy but also established such things as Child Labor Laws, Minimum Wage, Voting Rights for Women, Conservationism, and the Pure Food and Drug Acts. Most enacted mostly under Teddy Roosevelt! A Republican President!!!!
Now in these Successfuly Socialist/Leaning and Democratic States we have something of a balance bewteen Socialist Ideals and Capitalist Ideals. They are self-limiting to each other. Socialism Limits the Excesses of Capitalism that manifest as Social Darwinism, Greed, and Corprate Evils (Monopolies, Enron, etc) through people and government intervention. While Capitalism promotes economic activity making it possible to raise up one's living status and the freedom of personal opinion as Democracy thus eliminating any possible silly Dictatorship takeovers or radical changes to the economic and political make-up of the government and society.
Thus a Purely Socialist Government would be Marxist and a Purely Socialist one would be Corpratist.
Seeing as the United States is neither Marxist or Coproatist it is a Centerist. A Social Democracy.
Here from Wikipedia is the Idealology of Social Democracy that Democratic Soicalists support-
"A mixed economy consisting of both private enterprise and publicly owned or subsidized programs of education, health care, child care and related social services for all citizens.
An extensive system of social security (although usually not to the extent advocated by socialists), with the stated goal of counteracting the effects of poverty and insuring the citizens against loss of income following illness, unemployment or retirement.
Government bodies that regulate private enterprise in the interests of workers and consumers by ensuring labor rights (i.e. supporting worker access to trade unions), consumer protections, and fair market competition.
Environmentalism and environmental protection laws; for example, funding for alternative energy resources and laws designed to combat global warming.
A value-added/progressive taxation system to fund government expenditures.
A secular and a socially progressive policy.
Immigration and multiculturalism.
Fair trade over free trade.
A foreign policy supporting the promotion of democracy, the protection of human rights and where possible, effective multilateralism.
Advocacy of social justice, human rights, social rights, civil rights and civil liberties. "
Can you tell me something on this list that the United States does not have?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social.....ocracy#Present
The secular/progressive policy I have to disagree because as much as that group would love to take control of this country they haven't. Such is why we have laws against child porn and protitution.
Now if Obama, Pelosi, and Ried get thier way this will become a socialist country. Capitalism will be a thing of the past.
Take this example. Obama did not show outrage over Iran's elections being rigged. Yet when the president of Honduras was exiled for trying to overrun his country's term limit, Obama lashed out at the capitalist government.
Also here's another problem for you when it comes to evironmentalism. The California farmers that produce 12% of the nations food are suffering because they shut off the water supply to save a small fish.
All I can say is we don't need total socialism and much of what was covered here is has been covered for decades under a capitalist democracy. Wiki isn't always completely correct. I don't want the government having thier hands in every aspect of my life.
I want to start a small buisness in the near future, and a total socialist government would be telling me what I can and can't do or sell. Because if I make too much money, they'll come after me unfairly.
Call it messing around if you want but all it takes is Hugo Chavez telling his people to be ready for an invasion by the United States and people believe it.
Russia is doing it now by giving Venezuela a 2 billion dollar credit for military purchases. Why is it we are supposed to ignore world issues with possible allies when other's don't. That's why there were so many protests during Vietnam. The U.S.S.R was trying to become an empire by taking control of not only the Asian countries but the Middle Eastern countries as well.
What were we supposed to do let the entire Asian continent become our enemy? Maybe we should have let them have Afghanistan then the terrorism issue would be thier problem. Our generocity was repayed by taking over 3,000 lives throughout the 90's and 2001. Bin Laden gladly took our weapons in the 80's but turned on us.
Yeah we had a personal interest other than generocity as well. But we didn't have to help these countries.
Face it. We cannot be a seperatist nation as we tried to be in both World wars. Afghanistan is the perfect example of my points here. After the U.S.S.R left that country we didn't do anything to help them and well I mentioned 2001 already. If we had done in the 80's for Afghanistan what we are doing for Iraq now. Things would have probably been a great deal different in that region.
Theres probably other reasons those farmers cant over use the water, such as dealing with all those multi-thousand acre forest fires, tripple digit temps, etc.
The US is the only one without the Universal Health Care, Should we threaten embargo's and war with all of them until they do away with those scarey socialist policies? Should we do away with medicare and SSI and tell the elderly, "TOUGH LUCK FOR YOU!"
Why don't you try speaking inteligently when you want to debate instead of acting a jackass. Of course I wouldn't expect anything different from a democrat.
Why else would instead of engaging in a real discussion, Pelosi calling the teaparty, and the heatlhcare protestors unamerican but when the war protestors were running amuck she called them patriots?
Why else would you act they way you did? You automatically think I want the United States to run the world. But if you had taken the time to read the other reply I made you would have... nevermind you wouldn't have. Because you can't take the time to read something before going off so foolishly.
Try again to read my words very carefully and then make a rational comment instead of this idiocy you just made.
Oh yeah, people carrying around signs with obama dressed up as a witch doctor and saying he should be buried with kennedy, or ones saying "WE LEFT THE GUNS HOME... THIS TIME! is very patriotic. And don't get me started on the insanity of the birthers and deathers. The republicans and the tea baggers are just to caught up in their own hypocrisy. Fact of the matter is, Bush drove this country off a cliff and its gonna take alot of spending and tough choices to drag us back up to solid ground.
And the war protesters were patriots. We had NO BUSINESS GOING TO WAR WITH IRAQ!!!!!! There were no weapons of mass destruction. No Bin Ladin. It was just Bush wanting to finish what his father started with desert storm back in the early 90's. And Pelosi is right about another thing. If someone doesn't quell some of the hate speech and craziest of the fringe out there, mostly incited by Limbaugh and Beck, it could lead to violence or worse.
The other thing that the "state run" media made a huge hype about at one tea party with the well dressed man with a gun (AR15 I think) where the video scrolls up and stops before they show the guy's head. Fox (particularly Beck), showed the entire video and the man wearing a gun on his back was a black man. Shocked aren't ya?
The "state run" media (as Rush likes to call them) will never tell you anything that goes against Obama since they want us to be a socialist or even a communist country. They like telling and showing you stuff they think you need to know.
If you think he is any better then a politician well you need to realize he is just like a politician. He gets paid to say lies, only thats all he can do-lie lie lie rant lie, while Politicians sometimes can actually do good.
You think he's racist because its what the news media wants you to believe because they take what he says and edits it to make it sound like that. (off topic, but that's why most furry conventions don't allow the media in because they'll edit and sensationalize what the furry fandom is about - like what Trya Banks did to ChewFox, though it was mostly ChewFox's fault)
Actually I think he is a racist because he has all these racists rants ('We Need Segregated Buses, etc etc) and calls it 'Satire' but its really what he thinks.
Heh I wonder what would he say if he knew Furries supported him?
That's if he really knows what a furry is. He's always calling himself the lovable little fuzzball.
Top 10 Racist Limbaugh Quotes
By Casey Gane-McCalla October 20, 2008 9:45 pm
.....Here’s Our Top 10 Racist Rush Limbaugh Quotes
1. I mean, let’s face it, we didn’t have slavery in this country for over 100 years because it was a bad thing. Quite the opposite: slavery built the South. I’m not saying we should bring it back; I’m just saying it had its merits. For one thing, the streets were safer after dark.
Okay Rush, slavery was not a good thing for the millions of African Americans who were enslaved, raped and beaten. The streets weren’t at all safe for African Americans. Slavery not a bad thing? Someone should put Rush on a plantation for him to see how great it is. Keep on fear and race mongering Rush, you might get to Goebels status.
2. You know who deserves a posthumous Medal of Honor? James Earl Ray [the confessed assassin of Martin Luther King]. We miss you, James. Godspeed.
Martin Luther King is a national hero, not a black hero. Everybody in the United States celebrates his birthday, children are taught to look up to him as a hero in school. He’s earned the respect and admiration of the world and you believe the man who killed him was a hero? This is beyond racist. This is evil, mean spirited, subhuman. Praising the assassin of one of our great American heroes is beyond the scope of regular racism.
3. Have you ever noticed how all composite pictures of wanted criminals resemble Jesse Jackson?
No but I’ve noticed that all racist bigots think like Rush Limbaugh. Comparing a respected black politician and minister to common criminals is Jim Crow racism. Maybe all black people look alike to him, but I’ve never seen a picture of a wanted criminal that looks like Jesse Jackson. A serial killer that looks like Rush Limbaugh on the other hand.
John Wayne Gacy
4. Right. So you go into Darfur and you go into South Africa, you get rid of the white government there. You put sanctions on them. You stand behind Nelson Mandela — who was bankrolled by communists for a time, had the support of certain communist leaders. You go to Ethiopia. You do the same thing.
The communist connection is an old way of dealing with black leaders. They used it on Martin Luther King, they’re using it on Barack Obama and Limbaugh used it on Nelson Mandela. By siding with the racist apartheid regime over a world-wide symbol of peace and freedom, Limbaugh has shown he’s a global racist.
5. Look, let me put it to you this way: the NFL all too often looks like a game between the Bloods and the Crips without any weapons. There, I said it.
Limbaugh is once again fear mongering and race baiting by associating professional black athletes with criminals and gangmembers. He continues the fear mongering association of good, decent, hard working African Americans as criminals.
6. The NAACP should have riot rehearsal. They should get a liquor store and practice robberies.
Now Limbaugh is saying that an organization with a storied tradition of representing the positive black people for change in their communities are criminals and rioters. An organization that has been represented by intelligent professional African Americans, that has played a part in the Civil Rights movement and continues to be an intelligent, concerned voice for the African American community is degraded to common criminals. There you go Rush. Keep racism alive!!!!
7. They’re 12 percent of the population. Who the hell cares?
Decent human beings care Rush. Someone out of that 12% may just become President of the United States. Not caring about black people? Even George Bush wouldn’t admit to that.
8. Take that bone out of your nose and call me back(to an African American female caller).
Okay Rush that’s classy. The old African bone in the nose stereotype. Wasn’t funny when the racist white school kids called the black kids that and it’s definitely not funny when a grown man with audience of millions of easily influenced dittoheads says it either.
9. I think the media has been very desirous that a black quarterback do well. They’re interested in black coaches and black quarterbacks doing well. I think there’s a little hope invested in McNabb and he got a lot of credit for the performance of his team that he really didn’t deserve.
I wasn’t super offended by this, the whole black quarterback/coach thing has been going on for years in sports, but the quote was so offensive that Retired General Wesley Clarke said:
There can be no excuse for such statements. Mr. Limbaugh has the right to say whatever he wants, but ABC and ESPN have no obligation to sponsor such hateful and ignorant speech. Mr. Limbaugh should be fired immediately.
When a respected, retired general condemns the statement of a sportscaster, you know he’s gone too far.
10. Limbaugh attacks on Obama. Limbaugh has called Obama a ‘halfrican American’ has said that Obama was not black but Arab because Kenya is an Arab region, even though Arabs are less than one percent of Kenya. Since mainstream America has become more accepting of African-Americans, Limbaugh has decided to play against its new racial fears, Arabs and Muslims. Despite the fact Obama graduated magna cum laude from Harvard Law school, Limbaugh has called him an ‘affirmative action candidate.’ Limbaugh even has repeatedly played a song on his radio show ‘Barack the Magic Negro’ using an antiquated Jim Crow era term for black a man who many Americans are supporting for president.
Not listening to different views tends to get people who don't know what the right thing is and have one sided views of things.
Eh, I don't like Rush simple, you like him alright. I'm worried about his Personality Cult really, he has a big one. I'm worried that AMerican politics is becoming more and more about looks and personality! believe me! I was untill a month ago a Faithful Republican!!!! Untill I beefed it out on a forum of "Republicans" who wanted to rebuild the party but it turned out they were all somewhat brainwashed by the Personality Cults of Limbaugh and Palin. Call me a Moderate or a Progressive Republican or heck, even a Rockefeller! I just couldn't believe how they followed Palin like sheep because "She was soooo Anti-Intellectual" We need Academia and Intelligent people to run the country!!!!! I don't care that we should throw our whole support behind Palin for '12 just because she'd get more votes because she "appeals asthetically" I want someone capable. Not ignorant.
I really do not like how violent and childish activism has become. Have you seen the old woman that shouted "Heil Hitler" to a Jewish man who was supporting Obama's healthcare then when he was yelling at her for saying heil hitler to him and complaining how much he cost him (After waiting several hours int he hospital) from insurance she mocked him by whining infront of him like a baby. She was even wearing a Israeli Defense shirt! I was like OMGs! WHAT HAS BECOME OF CONSERVATIVE ACTIVISM??!?
I say I proudly support the Armenian Immigrant Jew who tore down those Obama pictures depicting Obama as Hitler. I didn't like it when it was done by the Democracts to Bush and I certainlyd on't like it when it was done by the Republicans to Obama.
You know its refreshing to rant. blowing off steam and all, but dude. Nothing personal against you with all this politics.
The only person I won't listen to is Micheal Savage. He's honest to god rude to his callers when they don't agree with his viewers. Mike Levin is a little better, but I rarely listen to him, since he's on later in the day.
Second paragraph: I might have heard about it, but I work in the street dept and I'm in the truck when I'm driving from one job to another or sitting in the truck eating lunch, so I tend to miss things, and I work 7:30AM to 4PM.
The schedule on the station I listen to is:
local programming: 5AM(?) till 8AM
Beck: 8AM to 11AM
Rush: 11AM to 2PM
Hannity: 2PM to 5PM
Levin: 5PM to 7PM
Savage 7PM to 11PM(?)
On a the weekend they usually repeat Beck and Hannity's shows from the week, but we also have local programming such as show om electronics and computers for two or three hours done by a very intelligent lady who answers calls from the viewers.
You are not an independant. If you were you would calmly discuss the matter instead of your ranting you are currently engaged in. Because you would understand that the economic mess was not entirely Bush's fault as all Democrats believe. You believe that the latest protestors were incited by Limbaugh and Beck. Which leads me to believe you listen a great deal to Rachel Maddow, and Keith Olberman.
Now Kusangi pretty much handled things pretty well unlike you. And Tombman at least knows what he's talking about.
There is one thing I will agree with you the war protestors were patriots. But to Pelosi it was only convenient when they were protesting against Bush. Now there are protestors against the Democrats policies. and she makes the excuse they are led on by talk radio and Fox News and therefore unamerican. Do you believe these protestors are unamerican? What of the black man protesting at a health care conference that was beaten up by an angry Democrat, you say violence, but from who?
And you have seen that Obama has an interview set up with all new organizations except for Fox news right? Hypocracy you say? What happend to Obama's promise of full transparency? Oh that's right he only wants transparency from the last admininstration. Not his. That's why he won't take questions from Fox reporters.
And i really dont consider that station a "news network" with all their constant hate speech. I actually consider The Daily show and Colbert Report more news worthy than that station. If anyone with half an ounce of intelligence wanted to actually listen to the interviews they could turn to reliable stations like CNN or their own local news stations.
Theres been plenty of hypocrisy, such as the Senator who complained about how poor he felt the metro service was in washington for the 9/12 protests even though he was the one responsible for blocking additional funding it needed to expand and modernize its services.
And I've said my peace and with that I'm done especially since you wanna play grammar nazi over a few emphasized phrases. And to quote a democrat; "Arguing with you would be like arguing with a dining room table, I have no interest in doing so." Also I'd prefer this to not become some flame war that results in admin intervention. ^.^;;
But it's good that your stopping because you only serve to not makes sense when replying to my comments incorrectly.
You don't consider the new protestors patriots, but you do the war protestors. You call the Fox news channel reporting hate speech, you consider a comedy routine more news than an actual news organization, and you quoted a Democrat. So call yourself a Democrat in Independent's clothing if you must, but you have shown here what you really are.
Thanks for giving me a good laugh.
It has nothing to do with forest fires (there are no forests in the valley that these farms are in) or triple digit temps (farmers have coexisted with 100+ degree temps since the beginning of the world)
No, we don't go to war over someone else's elections that were rigged, we only show our disapproval via a "strong" letter like what the UN does alot.