Incorporate and headquarter in the US, most of those problems go away because it's a US company.

Given the right structure, you then become an "employee" of your own company...that you own.

That is likely how our involvement will work, it's all quite confusing and convoluted, seemingly on purpose. I'll need to find out how liable we would be even as employees.

I did a little googling in the interim, there's also may be a stipulation that the majority (unsure if this means 50%+) of transactions also be conducted in the US. But since it's an internet-based one, that might not be an issue...granted this is for full corporations though.

That's the neat thing about Corporations (wholly separate entities) and LLCs, employees are not liable for anything. Only the board/CEO, etc depending on the egregiousness of the liability like federal crimes.

This is partially not true. In fact, the current H3H3 lawsuit is going for this. You can "pierce the veil" of a corporation of you do not handle assets properly. Contact a lawyer for more information.

Yes, I should have mentioned, IANAL, seek actual advice from a corporate-experienced lawyer.

FA has been really the only site that I have been on. The other sites like ink bunny and deviant art never really interested me. When I saw your post about Fellden I was really interested. I agree that you want to solidify all the legal hurdles so that when your site is live you don’t get hit with anything. It really sucks that the laws are so controlling over what people can post out in the public. I get the meaning behind it but is it overbearing?

It is. The internet should belong to the people.

Not gonna say much against FA here... this site is so totalitarian they will suspend you for smallest word in a comment out of place (I know that from experience). I can say one suggestion: Explore other art sites too! Especially Inkbunny, which is among the only ones that remain representative of the real furry fandom as it was back in the day before also being corrupted by woke extremism and "progressive" intolerance.

Which one would you recommend the most? I have been on FA for about i think 9 years now and although I haven’t had anything personally happen to me on this site I have seen what has happened with other users.

Inkbunny, e621, Derpibooru (the later is MLP only): Those have their own little quirks, but their teams make a visible effort to defend artistic freedom however they can while respecting their users (regardless of politics and more). Weasyl and Sofurry were bitten by the same bug as Furaffinity... they're smaller FA's with pretty much the same rules albeit hopefully somewhat nicer, as in won't randomly hit you with a suspension for breaking absurd rules you didn't even imagine existed without warning you first.

But yeah: If you've been silent on social subjects whereas the characters and stories in your art are considered acceptable by the ideological council of the administration, FA may let you be. Speak or draw anything that's even slightly sensitive, you don't know when you'll refresh your page and find a suspension warning for something you did months ago. At this day I legitimately expect the worst whenever I return to my computer and prepare to look at my notifications.

Yea my content does not hit any sensitive subject so I can agree that they would leave me be. I heard a bit about inkbunny. I might check them out.

I'm willing to take on the financial risks, but the legal ones add a lot of doubt and stress to the prospect that are overwhelming for an individual. The nail that sticks out gets the hammer, the current cultural climate hates adult content.

The limit of what I could lose in it's failure should just be some money, not everything.

Yea the legal implications can be dire. Financial risk you can sometimes recover from, but legal consequences those are much harder to recover from.

I have been working for a few years now on trying to make an exchange where adult artists could get paid. Trouble been clearing houses, visa, Mastercard, and the other have a clad TOS that leaves the clearing house high and dry if they desire to stop payment for adult stuff.

Patreon is a lost cause but I'd look at Subscribestar for the time being. And as annoying as I know it is because it's more difficult to use, cryptocurrency.

These are good but I am trying to get something that can even be used at a convention. I have seen a lot of lost sales because the dealer was not able to cards for losing the ability because of selling adult stuff. If you do happen to find a company it hella pricy and cuts into your funds deep.

I figure conventions are like art sites: Some are like FA others like Inkbunny. If a con is ran by sex-scared cavemen they're going to ban that from being sold regardless of the method used, whereas normal cons are going to be okay with it. As far as payment processors go, safest route seems like using physical cash... beyond that I've never heard of an online payment processor banning someone for what they sold at a stand unless it's drugs or something, albeit in today's world nothing would surprise me any more.

PayPal, Stripe, and few others will ban you if someone reports you as selling adult art or toys making it hard to sell adult stuff at the cons. I have run into this over furs buying stuff from me, getting it, then filing a complaint to get back their money ripping me off, and at the same time getting my account banned for violations of terms of service. The adult artwork and toy community need a company they can use without having to pay arm or leg.

FA is a hornet's nest of woke Marxism... at least in how it's ran, when you talk to individuals (even mods) most seem like cool people at least. So far Inkbunny and e621 are the only sites still ran in the image of the true furry fandom by their admins; If Jasonafex succeeds we could have yet another to balance out the Marxists and give artists their freedom back! But as this journal points out, the fascists have invaded not just websites but also the governments of some countries to threaten artists and site admins with becoming prisoners of conscience over art: It's a battle that must be fought carefully across the globe... if we're determined though, we will win against them, and there's nothing the tyrants will be able to do to stop us in the end

I legitimately wouldn't be surprised if at some point, giving someone a gift is going to become the next offensive thing. I've seen so much by now that literally anything is possible in my mind.

Should have thought about that first.

To make good use of a lawyers time, we needed to be somewhat through phase 0 (Proof of Concept) so we don't miss anything when requesting an acceptable use policy etc. All ambitious projects see some form of setback and it's still possible. I just can't host it from Canada.

For a small team, individuals need to adopt many roles at once. Law isn't my expertise and I'm more comfortable with design and management.

Subscribestar should work, I second that. Don't use Patreon as that's also been taken over by puritan cultists: You can try but expect your page being deleted by them eventually.

There are only two options at this moment: Either flee to a civilized country, or if that's not possible have someone else residing in one host it for you. The later is probably more plausible and I see you're already considering it which is a good choice; You can probably remain the lead of the project from an official viewpoint, but someone else can own the server and whatever else is needed on paper to avoid such madness.

The US is indeed a good pick: It's riddled with fanatical thought-controlling puritans, but the constitution is clear and actual laws are mentally sound at the end of the day. There are a few more alternatives otherwise, such as Japan or France (with some other sane EU nations) where people who own servers don't get randomly persecuted. Avoid Australia or Britain on the other paw, those are also bootlegged North Koreas like Canada.

Unfortunately I'm soon to be a dual Canadian-Australian citizen, both of which aren't viable due to their censorship laws. You cannot be a triple citizen in the US and we only just bought a house in Canada in the past year. That process would take half a decade.

Realistically, US furries need to step up to the plate and be willing to take on some responsibility to make this happen. I'm biting off as much as I can chew within reason.

I'm from Europe / Romania myself; The country is pretty chill with most things including copyright, at least as far as I'm aware. Haven't looked at the actual laws since frankly this garbage depresses and disgusts me, I'd rather it simply doesn't exist in my mind: Can only say I haven't heard of any incidents involving artists for what they draw or platform owners for the speech of other users. That being said, I'm busy with a lot of things at once plus lack of energy to work on more, as far as providing hosting there isn't much I can do.

The one way I can help is if you'd be willing to consider going the way of decentralization, which would ensure the platform stays free while putting you at no legal risk to develop it. Just sent you a PM about that before checking here, I tried not to make it long so please read that when you have a minute and consider if it's viable.

I've heard that Australia has the most highly regulated internet of any democracy in the world.

"bootlegged North Koreas like Canada."

lolwut?

He said there are laws to arrest people for what they draw. I heard about that sort of thing in Canada / Australia / Britain before. Personally I'd be concerned to even visit such a place for a single day... I mean a nation capable of having such laws in the 21th century could be capable of hanging you at the gallows for heresy over something you say on Facebook, fanaticism isn't something to take lightly whatever package it comes in.

There's certainly issues with bringing art across the boarders as it's at the discretion of the guards, but can you point to any case in the last ten years like that...?

Manga has been confiscated at the Canadian border numerous times for being considered obscene, same goes for the import of certain figurines if the boxart is too lewd. A Canadian business recently got fined $250,000 for failing to take down CP from it's platform, however in that case apparently they were emailed 200 times to do so. This is considered a 'slap on the wrist' so these laws seem to target mega-corporations but how is a new platform meant to pop up without serious pressure?

Are we meant to just fly under the legal radar and take that risk? Governments should support new businesses, not crush them.

I believe laws like these are meant to function in the image of the Soviet Union / Chinese Communist Party: Broad absurd and meant to target everyone if taken literally, but practically intended to be used against groups that could be inconvenient to those presently in power. Like if someone says something politically incorrect or doesn't pay their taxes on time, the government suddenly remembers they created or bought drawings considered immoral by the church-state. They know people will still look at that sort of thing and this won't stop them, but that way they have many people at hand if they need a reason to persecute somebody.

Age verification on porn sites was intended for similar reasons: Under the guise of protecting children (from imaginary dangers based on conservative superstitions) some countries wanted everyone who looks at porn to submit their ID and inevitably have it recorded. Are you a journalist or politician who went too far? Boom: News was just leaked that you looked at something really gross on Pornhub... let's see what people will think of you once word comes out about that.

Canada is one of those countries that wants every user to provide their government ID, this would turn Fellden into a honeypot of private information for hackers. It's also something I would be very uncomfortable handling, I respect and appreciate internet anonymity.

...
Which law is that...?
Because, ha, let's be honest. I'm REALLY into anonymity. You're very concerned about providing government ID, great, that sucks. You seem to want servers in the states, lovely. So tell me, what prevents servers in the US being any better than servers in Canada for not being a 'honey pot?'

Because you mention Canadian lawyers, but have you spoken to any American ones? Or are you unaware of the Reddit 'canary?' Or are you also going to utterly limit the access to your site from Europe, and haven't considered the GDPR?

Also, I'm sorry you haven't had a great time in Canada. I sincerely hope, should you get stuck here, that things get better.

Go ahead. Provide me with an example of the broad laws in Canada. Go right ahead! There are many, many, MANY laws that are fairly board, to try and cover odd situations that happen. Hell, I can tell you some. But I ask you this - can you actually name any? Or are you impressing things you believe to be true, that aren't?

Have you been to Canada? Have you listened to our News? Or international news with what's going on? Cause the most recent thing is pretty damn sick. But tell me, what do you actually know...?

I heard of some of the really creepy laws from people who live there. Still vaguely remember an article from years ago, about someone who literally had the police bust into his home and arrest him just for ordering anime from Japan... don't ask me for a link since it was +5 years ago but I know I saw it. Similarly to Australia where people were getting arrested for buying sex dolls that weren't painted correctly and looked too young to the state. Banana republic stuff in countries pretending to have anything to do with progress and civilization.

I won't even dive in what's happening under the umbrella of COVID-19 there. Partly because FA now suspends users who talk about that stuff... it's literally a forbidden subject, unless it's to hail the official narratives and ask no questions. I think the people living there can say more about the terror they've been living in, compared to most countries who still had a minimal limit in how they enforced their "spooky virus safety measures". Australia takes the cake at that one, followed by Canada then Britain... what is it with english speaking countries and authoritarianism these days?!

"A Canadian business recently got fined $250,000 for failing to take down CP from it's platform, however in that case apparently they were emailed 200 times to do so."

I...yes? By CP I assume you mean Child Porn? Yes. I think that fine is light. If you were informed, 200 times that you had Child Pornography on your site and failed to do something about it, yes. That's a slap on the wrist.

But you're missing a bunch. How long a period did those reports come in? What platform was this? How does 'not having child porn' on your site seem like a serious pressure?

Unfortunately most of the information we get on these cases come from the articles that cover them, of which don't provide all the details. Why did this platform fail to respond to it's emails or moderate the images in question? We'll never know. I do know that a Canadian platform can get in trouble for failing to take down an upload within 12 hours, meaning a very active, large moderation team. It said the fines were so steep in order to 'make an example' out of social platforms.

Its upsetting that the Canada I knew and loved is becoming a land of economic and social stagnation because we are on such a bender we are just red-taping everything. But as for creativity, its always upsetting to watch expression and creative works getting squashed with little thought or regard.

Canada has always been like that though, they are a British nation after all, and the Brits have never, ever been a truly free people, and they never will be. Canada is just weird though, they enjoy a greatly undeserved reputation simply because of their proximity to the US.

Well that's fairly reductionist. Not that I want to get into a debate about the two countries, but Canada has a lot of unique stuff going for it other than 'It's close to the US, so that's why it has any sizeable reputation.'

The unique perks of Canada hasn't really manifested themselves in a way that benefit the business ventures of myself and my wife thus far. I'm not a fan of the social plans or tax rate. The lock downs in our state of Ontario are still going and the restrictions are absurd. It seems to actively push back against furry art at every turn.

I don't disagree; it's not especially pornography-friendly, and the taxes are certainly painful, ESPECIALLY in Ontario. The fact that I have to charge huge taxes when I sell art to people in the various provinces isn't wonderful. Definitely not easy to make adult businesses work here.

If you say so.

Sure, that's one viewpoint. The only point I'm arguing is that saying Canada has an elevated reputation simply for it's proximity to the US. I really think being close to the US doesn't have a huge part to play in Canada's reputation. Perhaps in a few areas, sure.
I simply don't agree with the idea that any significant part of the reputation our country might have has a lot to do with Canada being placed right next to the US. But, I'm not from America, or anywhere else, I'm from Canada - so the stereotypes and overall reputation playing out in daily life that I can see is probably quite different than what you might see, especially if your focus is strictly on politics and political actions.

It's certainly not perfect; we certainly have plenty of issues like any country, absolutely. But we have a fair amount of reputation for lots of things that goes around that has nothing to do with the US. If you're strictly talking politics and political reputation, I'm not the one to talk to. And you could certainly be right; maybe our politics-based reputation has a fair bit to do with our current prime minister and the contrast with Trump.

Hope your day is a good one. :)

Ohh, so many assumptions and so much shade.

Cool. *High five*

Canada manages the surprising feat of presenting itself as the most progressive country while being among the most regressive in reality. Sadly that's in part because "progressive" means something different today than it did years ago: If back then modernism meant respecting freedom and democracy and all people, now it's spreading as much terror and tyranny as possible in the name of whatever cause is deemed woke by the "free and handsome young men" (a saying we have in my country). I won't even discuss the COVID stuff happening there since FA now suspends people who talk about that... unless it's to "tow the party line" of course, you're welcome to discuss it if what you say doesn't risk getting people to think.

>It's ironic as Canada is currently trying to pass bill C-10 which will force Canadians to consume 50% Canadian made media.

That basically introduces a whole new level of censorship that knee caps anyone making content in Canada (unless you are one of the big players).

Of course, it's not just that legislation that would prove problematic for anyone creating things. There's the online harms legislation as well as possible website blocking on top of it all. Canada has basically declared war on the Internet and things are probably going to get worse before they get better.

As a Canadian artist I highly sympathize, we've got strict laws even in terms of making art (Though most don't even abide by them) we shouldn't draw more short-statured characters even if they're above legal age because it can still be seen and interpreted as CP, though technically not restrictive to what you make, it would be very unwise to publish it and ride on luck hoping no one rats you out or reports you for selling/creating more petite ocs.

I don't know if it would be any help to know but as far as I'm aware Telus doesn't disclose browser history etc to third parties even with broken laws (Hence why I use them). They hate the gov and will do anything to not work for them or make it easier for other internet companies that want to work with the gov. Maybe this is something to look into? Sorry if its of no help ^^'

We already have a 40% cad media consumption rule, it does us really well surprisingly. The unfortunate part of the bill is it gives Canada the right to rule over all of the social media with no guidelines or lines stating what classified as social media e.e

Its rather bothersome especially as someone who owns many smaller bodied characters and enjoys making gory/violent art but I hope you can overcome this hurdle, if not then I still wish your platform the best in its progression <3

Thanks for the well wishes, the project is ultimately bigger than me and I want it to succeed, even if that means new ownership in a free country. Fellden ultimately needs to work as a business and we'll need to take it where it's wanted and appreciated. I want a space where artists and creators can grow without fear of their economic bubble popping at any minute. There really doesn't seem to be a place people can go once they hit a certain level of popularity outside of just making content for other communities, it's sad. FA's financial health isn't looking too great and we should be thinking forward with what the next generation of furs are going to be using. We shouldn't be stuck in a cycle of table scraps from platforms like Tumblr, Twitter, Patreon etc. Places that only tolerate furry content until it gets too popular.

We managed to find success despite these social hurdles and I hope others do too.

stop lying and stealing and you wont get any heat my guy

You can easily look up these laws yourself, we have been working on this platform for free.

If you think I am being dishonest (Or worse, if you are attempting to deceive others) there is nobody stopping you from continuing to use FA. I'm personally not that apathetic and would rather actively seek out new, better solutions. I can't make the platform if I don't have the legal freedom to so do in my country.

If you are expecting me to stick my neck out and become a martyr for clout I'm sorry but that's not worth it.

life would be so much simpler if you didn't need to make up fantastical stories where people's money went by going "thanks for the free bux, lol"

We never asked for, nor accepted money for Fellden. No crowdfunding of any sort.

If your just going to lie there's no point talking to you.

Just want to say I really appreciate what you're trying to accomplish with this project, Jasonafex. Your goal of a transparent, all-inclusive community is an ambition I fully support and will 100% use if you're able to make it a reality.

Best of luck to you and the team as you continue researching and troubleshooting the various legal hurdles involved in getting this project off the ground. What you're trying to do is ultimately bigger than the furry fandom, and I encourage you to stick with it as new challenges arise.

Thanks, the news does put me in an awkward position as I'm unsure in what capacity I can lead the project. I'm not the right person in the right place this time and I accept that. I have faith in our team that they can find a way.

Dropping by to show my support for a more open site, it's unfortunate that Canadian laws are the ay it is. I dont live anywhere near the west so nothing much I can do but show support and hope the project still manages to come forth!

Your support is much appreciated thankyou. All big projects have bumps in the road and I'm hopeful that it can persevere and continue to pick up momentum.

Would there be a place I can keep track of the site's development/growth? Would love to make an account the day it launches :D

(Unless I'm misunderstanding, everything's still very early in development, yes?)

I have faith in the furry community and the talented Fellden team that they can pick up the slack. I can still help out even if it's not on the scale originally planned.

The main problem with hosting in the US is that the laws can be too forgiving sometimes. So your going to have to really protect your shit because finding a US lawyer tat will help with civil and criminal internet cases like this is hard. Most will shrug their solders and tell you there is nothing they can do.

Considering there are a handful of adult furry platforms operating out of the US already, most of which have operated for well over a decade without much controversy beyond payment processors it seems possible. I'm doubtful a government is going to put undo pressure on something so small in it's growing years.

However, Canada in particular has too many red flags and it seems like a very bad idea to take that risk here.

lmao

That really sad to read. I hope you could find a solution for your great project

have someone be the face of the company in the USA. someone you know, trust, and can deal with expediently if they go rogue. you do all the back end stuff as usual via remote access from cuckadia

Since this has only been in early development for a few months, there isn't any one individual who we have known long enough to trust with the keys to the kingdom so to speak at the current time. The desire for US investors will help demonstrate who is committed to work on this long-term.

Wouldn't we need to censor everything if our servers are owned and operated out of Japan? I feel that would be very hard to market to the west. Japan is already doing a great job with content curation via Pixiv

Wow, that's... a lot. I hope things go well for you. I've always enjoyed the quality of your art.

Random word of advice; make sure you have the right people in the right place. You don't want to end up like Roll 20 on reddit with the ApostleA/ApostleofTruth debacle. Have somebody who can handle things with more...tact in social situations than you.

Just because You Want To Do A Good Thing, doesn't mean that You Are Impervious To Making Bad Mistakes, and it never hurts having people with different perspectives to see things in ways you can'.

You don't know me, and I don't know a great deal about you, beyond that you are well known in the fandom as an artist.

I have been in the furry fandom since the late 90's, so I've been around a bit to see a few things. A good bit of drama... I'm currently in my early 40's so I guess the younger furs would consider me a greymuzzle.

I just wanted to say - and please forgive me if I offend you - but up until my dad passed away about 5-6 years ago furry was my world - my life. I'd go to cons, run around in fursuit, get lots of commissions - sometimes adult in nature, and so on. I'd indulge in drugs. I did a lot of things I am not proud of...

So after my dad passed I hit a pretty low point and ended up reading one of the many books my dad left me - to try and make sense of my life. That book was The Holy Bible.

I found it to be full of wisdom - in it the LORD uses imperfect people with flaws and weaknesses to do His will - all they needed was faith and a willingness to have a king in their lives that was not themself(ves).

So I gave my life over to Jesus Christ as my Lord and Savior. I now spend much of my time living not for my own desires and pleasures but to try and bring other sinners (like myself) to understanding that they can have a relationship with the living God of all creation.

I'm trying to do this gently, because I know prior to being a Christian nobody likes to hear that they are 'bad' or somehow doing life wrong. I used to be the same way. I never wanted to hear any of that Christ cr*p - I was too busy with my life and it seemed so preachy. But that was my ego - and it was in control of my thoughts and desires. Having a relationship with the LORD means being willing to humble yourself like a lowly servant and listen to what He wants you to do in life. A lot of people don't want to give up that control when they can continue to be their own god in life and do what they wish.

I used to do drugs. Cannabis. Opiates. E and shrooms. It was no big deal until I learned that these things (alcohol also) is an affront to God because He gave us these bodies as a holy temple - and the holy spirit will flee from our bodies if we pollute it with these drugs and sinful behavior.

So by just giving my life over to Jesus Christ I was able to drop two almost life-long drug habits. Porn addiction as well. I have not looked back and to gain my soul back in return - I could never go back.

I'm writing this to you because I came across some posted content where you and your girlfriend were dealing with personal issues and it pained me to see you both struggling with this drama.

I see you both as son and daughter of the LORD - my brother and my sister, and as a servant of Jesus Christ I now spend my time trying to reach out to others who have pain and stress in their life in the hopes that showing what having a relationship with Jesus Christ as Lord and savior did for me - that you both can also have that feeling of peace, love and gentleness in your hearts and lives as well.

As long as one chooses sin (drawing porn for example - lust) over having a relationship with the LORD - you basically give demons and fallen angels license/permission to harass, gangstalk or otherwise "troll" you in this life you are living. They will do it via random FA accounts, personalities online or even people you might run into in life.

On the flipside you have good angels and saints (reformed sinners) who will try to reach out to you and protect you from the consequences of sinning and leading a sinful life.

Again, please forgive me if my comment seems preachy - but there is much sin in the furry fandom - and demons will fight tooth and nail to keep lost souls indulging in it because the worst thing for them is when a sinner repents and gets baptized and professes Jesus Christ as Lord and savior and starts trying to stamp out all their formerly sinful behavior in their lives.

There will be comments in response to this that will try to downplay what I am saying here. Please do not let these poor souls lead you away from considering getting to know the LORD and living a moral and righteous life.

If you would like to hear more please feel free to contact me. Either via notes, or in Second Life if you have an account there. I am often on there trying to save lost souls.

Sending you and your lady all my love, brother and sister. Hope to see you on the side of light and goodness. Time is running out...

I see you have placed a lot of effort into your comment. While I'm skeptical as to what extent it is personalized since a lot of what you described poorly reflects my motivations, experiences or who I am as a person, it's simplified and generalized, boxing all furries in as degenerates with little to no redeeming qualities until they turn to religion. I do not share that value.

I am happy with my career, it brings me great joy and prosperity. I also too attend a church group and they are lovely people, so are many furries I've met. By no means do I consider my atheist or otherwise non religious friends as morally inferior or any less worth of merit. I understand the value of putting your faith in a higher power and the amount of rich wisdom present in biblical texts but my self-actualization involves being a pillar of this community. It's good for me, it's good for my family and I want to return to that prosperity to community with an abundant attitude.

I respect that you feel reaching out and preaching is what gives you meaning, but it's not for me. My skills and talents thrive in artistic expression and I am at my best when I am vulnerable, sexual and bold.

Time is running out? sounds like a threat.

I didn't know what was bill C-10 was until now, but I like you're take on it. sorry to hear the bull shit you're going through with Canada and I hope that your work get to where you want it to be at some point !.

Counterproductive for our needs. We in a literal sense are Canadian content creators, but we can't make this website due to overzealous censorship laws.

If Canadian content was truly worth consuming, it would be at the forefront of peoples feeds by it's own means, not enforced by the government. I'm far more in favor of free markets.