Would this apply to just European clients or all clients?

You still have to pay your taxes no matter who is buying your stuff.

Value-added tax is a bit different since it's applied at the time of purchase and the customer pays it. All other taxes to my knowledge is something I have to pay myself.

Ah I meant the first "you" as the "generic you", so I see how that sentence was pretty ambiguous.
Phrased better: Someone still has to pay the taxes no matter who is buying Drako's stuff.

I thought I wouldn't have to apply it for non-EU countries, but apparently in my case it doesn't matter which country the client is from but rather, the seller. So yes this'd apply to everyone.

Short: I personally think this is the correct way, and the increase wouldn't put you at a totally different price-level in my personal opinion, so it should be fine.

Like:
You're not in the 20-40€ range some people are (however they can afford that, but hey, power to them!), either way, with or without it.
And you're also not in the 600 - 1000 or 3000 - xxx range (however customers can afford that, but hey, power to them! :-D)


And ultimately, if you ask me and the bit I remember from my "merchant" (?) education:
Taxes, payment processor fees, etc., should ALWAYS be part of the price, and your price-making-process. It's really nice of you to pay it yourself so far, but that's just not how the system works, and thus, should work for you.

- You SHOULD include taxes and payment processing fees in your prices. Always.
- *I* would still buy from you. 25% sounds quite much, but it's obviously all relative.

Best wishes, I hope many people agree, cause you deserve not losing so much money from your own pockets,

RealZero

24% is a lot I agree! I'd prefer it was 0%. Y'know, cuz taxation is theft and all that.

But yeah I think this'd cement myself in the 200-500€ range for good. Those super big commissions now valuing at 600-1000 would probably all go bye bye, but they're not in that range for me anyway since I pay hundreds of euros of VAT from those lol.

I sorta expected this and your stance is perfectly understandable, Finland sure loves its taxes. I should know.

I have to say though, that the tacked-on taxes will definitely make me consider it more if I'm going to commission your or not. It's not gonna stop me from ever doing it again, just less frequently and with better-fleshed-out ideas.

Yeah you can prolly get way better looking art than mine for cheaper after this. Just hope my style and "brand recognition" is enough to keep customers coming :/

From what I've seen of your demand, I'm pretty sure your "Brand" will carry you through it.

Hi! I've been hit by this too since I am required to pay taxes on my business revenue as well. Yes, you should definitely include it in your prices. Specially a VAT tax.

That being said, look up on the tax treaties that Finland has with other countries. You might find that it doesn't apply to all of them.

For instance, in my case, Canada does have tax treaties with other countries that diminish the amount of taxes to be paid at a certain amount. Each country combination and each activity will have its own rate (which makes this REALLY complex to keep track of). In my case, living in Canada, for consulting services granted to the US, it's a plain 0%, which means that I do not need to pay taxes on those transactions and my customers do NOT need to pay taxes to me.

Check what your situation is with countries in how Finland describes your activity. From that you might find what is the actual impact it has in your taxes (and you might as well deduct some of it!)

Problem is that in my case, it doesn't matter where the client is located but rather where the business is. So in plain terms, I will ALWAYS have to pay 24% VAT no matter if the client is in the US, Russia or freakin Nigeria. Tax treaties be damned.

Well, having to pay 24% more would make it far easier to break the 1000€ milestone! :p

Jokes aside, the issue with a fee like that is that as a percentage it will disproportionately impact clients who desire larger, more expensive commissions (obviously), so it's possible there will be a shift in demand away from those sorts of commissions. If you rely on that type of work to provide the bulk of your income, I would definitely think twice about it, especially if this type of work is provided by repeat customers. There's nothing more damaging to a business than accidentally losing these "whales".

I'm confident you'd still have a lot of demand for your work of course, but as I said before, chances are it would start being for less expensive pieces. So in theory the total value of the commissions would move to a lower price level. To consider at this stage is, does a 24% surcharge make up for the amount that is lost from people going from a cell shade to a colored sketch, for instance:

If someone were to commission you for a single-character cell shaded piece, that's 130€.

With 24% VAT that would be 161.2€.

If they can't afford that, they might think to move down to the colored sketch level, which would be 100€ with 24€ VAT.

On the surface it only looks like you lose 6€ from having VAT and not having VAT, but really the outcomes are more like:

No VAT: customer orders 130€, not 100€ (making 30€ more from ordering a higher quality)
VAT: customer orders 124€, not 161.2€ (losing 37.2€ from ordering a lower quality)

This is essentially the "base level" of what might happen that I envision, and the differences become both more likely and more severe the higher the complexity/quality/etc. go. In a vacuum I think VAT could cost you more in this way, but it really depends on the behavior of clients.

Which means you should also consider currency issues! As an American who's commissioned you, the translation from $ to € is already a pain to think about, especially because the conversion rate we use to pay you is increased so Paypal can take a cut. 100€ becomes ~$120, if VAT were added 124€ becomes ~$150. A currency difference definitely exacerbates the issues I've mentioned above.

The last point I have for discussion is your personal situation and goals. In theory it sounds nice to apply a 24% VAT and get 24% of your income back, but I imagine that amount too would be eaten up by Paypal fees and taxes if you make the invoices larger (if I'm wrong let me know lol, like I said I am American so I don't know how VAT works). So the ultimate question then becomes "is it worth all of the above to see an increase in my take-home of (probably) less than 24%?"

If you feel that you definitely need it for whatever reason, then that's a point for VAT. But if you're able to afford rent, food, saving up, etc. already, then maybe it's not a necessity (including services the government provides with said taxes you already pay). Losing a large percentage of your income to taxes and the like sucks, but it is part and parcel of living in a society (like you said haha) and running your own business too.

It's not easy doing what you do! So I'm hoping that my thoughts provide some insight for you. I definitely tried to stay objective, both as an analytical challenge to myself and because I'm confident that 90% of your clients would just say "I don't want to pay VAT so it's cheaper for me!" There's a lot more to it than a surface-level quote like that.

頑張って！

I'm not gonna go through and answer every point you made, but the downgrade from bigger comms is very much something that could happen. But you also need to take workload into mind: single-char pics can be completed in 6-8 hours, while mega comms like the one you just ordered will easily take 30-40 hours. Getting more small comms but earning more from them would free up time to do more comms in general, increasing overal revenue.

Also, if I don't add the VAT the next best thing is to just significantly increase my prices to make up for the money I keep losing. Something like 200€ for a soft shade one char pic. Something has to give, cuz I don't think I earn enough rn to afford all these taxes and also not downgrading my quality of life.

And no, getting to keep 24% of my income does not mean it'll just go to other taxes x'D

This sounds like it'd work out for you then if it meant more time to work on more comms that aren't as labor intensive.

I would still be able to and willing to commission you, but what I think would work well is if you include the 24% VAT in the initial prices that you show, similar to how its done in retail, restaurants, etc. You could increase your prices by 24% in total, that way people won't think that they are being forced to pay the 24% VAT to a country they aren't in. 😄

The problem is that I can't include it in my prices since the overal VAT entirely depends on how costly the peoject is.

Or do you mean adding it in the invoice as part of the payment without using Paypal's automatic VAT function?

Oooh right, I forgot about the complexity and add-ons!

Then I think you will have to have it outlined clear as day in your prices or ToS! I'm sure the majority of people who really enjoy your art and want to get something from you won't decide not to just because of this!

I think PayPal automatic VAT system is the way to go.

> I would rather not anyone had to pay these stupid taxes.
Based Drako?
Jokes aside, you do that. You have your own self-interest to look after and that should generally take precedent.

Unironically I'm starting to come around to the taxation is theft argument. I mean half of what I earn go to the goverment and big business? Fuck. Off.

Don't let yourself do that. I say this as an American who knows a fair number of people who hold said viewpoint in my own local area and online., and at least in my own personal experience, its lead some folks down... a number of rabbit holes.

I'm not American though.

Such rabbit holes as: Personal responsibility, personal autonomy, human rights, anti-slavery, property rights.

Incorrect given how a fair number of the ones I know seem to mostly be of the "autonomy for me but not thee" kind, but I'll leave it at that.

True, and they don't even do anything to earn that kind of money from their constituents.

To be fair in Finland they do. But the pricetag for all the nice things we have is quite hefty

Ah, well at least Finnland's gov't cares a little bit lol

can we clone your government? :P

You could always just move here y'know

that also requires a fair bit of funds.

And most importantly at this point would move me further away from my Boyfriend, who I very much desire to be closer.

To add to this, while 24% VAT on €70-€160+ (~$83 to ~$190) sounds like a lot at first glance, it will never be as ridiculous as the prices of some artists (like le $5k YCH moment). The value of art commission includes the actual artist's time.

well shoot, like it sounds alot, but for the quality it's only fair really, you do have lovely art and a friendly manner of course, so I do hope the best for you

What would this typically place some of your more basic comms at price wise? I ask mostly because I would certainly love to get some art from you, but at the same time, only have so much funds available generally (I use USD, but can go ahead and convert via google currency so I'd just need an average)

So as for basic one character commissions with no addons, the prices would be as follows:
colored sketch 124€
cell shade 161.2€
soft shade 198.4€

*nods and does the conversions*

so with some rounding up,
150 USD
190.75 USD
235 USD

oof yeah, at minimum it'd mean someone with my general level of cash would basically at most seek to only get a single character colored sketch once every so often.

Granted, a fair number of furries are more loaded than I am, so that might not be a big issue with how popular ya are.

I'd certainly still seek to at some point. It just means it'd be further off than before and or I'd have to see about any possibility of reserving a spot if that'd even be doable. Sometimes I've had the cash but there's not been any openings (least as far as I could tell anyways x.x), which leads me to getting a comm from a different artist.

it doesn't sound like a bad idea though if it'll help ya out more on the money front. And as you said, it might mean getting a bigger volume of people wanting the easier/faster to finish comms and thus offsetting loss in bigger priced comms. Ultimately, tis up to you though and I hope you've gotten some good feedback!

You could always also seek to sort of phase it in slowly if you're worried about it. Start of at like 6% or 8% for a month or two, then increase afterwards.

If I had money I would commission you no matter what the cost is with or without our "Suomi Vero"

Would wholly depend on how much extra it adds to the final price. I do wanna commission you (especially since my idea wasn't picked the last time ^^; ), but the VAT would be a difference of "I can do this now" or "I'll have to wait a few more months".

You do what you have to.

As someone who's gotten several pieces from you before, the current prices are pushing the limit of what I could spend in good conscience (I have separate frivolous spendings savings for video games and furry porn, but it's not a lot with my barely existent income), and further increases will leave me pretty much unable to ever think about it again barring taking up black market organ trading as a hobby.

Yes, that's entirely my problem, but I can still be bummed about it. I'm sure you won't run out of customers either way.

You were one of the lucky ones to be able to snag quite a few pics back when I still charged a fraction of what I do now hahaa.

Adding VAT wouldn't stop me from commissioning you but the basic bitch libertarian shit in these journal comments certainly gives me pause, lol

Bro, you charge 80-200 USD for your comms, that's already more than 90% of furries would ever consider paying. Adding 24% on top of that is not going to be a big difference and in fact would bring you in line with a lot of other artists at your skill level. It's not like you're out here charging $300 for a single character colored sketch, or $5000 for a YCH slot. Anyone who can't pay an extra $20-$40 is not a serious prospect for commissioning you -- real commissioners should already be tipping you that much anyway.

If you use PayPal's automatic VAT then no one can even accuse you of it being your fault or you being greedy because they'll be able to see it's being added by PayPal as a separate tax from your commission cost. Simply inform your commissioners beforehand that you live in a VAT country and therefore you are legally required to include VAT in your prices. You should NEVER have been paying it yourself; that is a mistake that stems from you being inexperienced and self-employed.

Finally, you live in a fucking social democratic country, your taxes actually pay for things that materially benefit you, like infrastructure and schools and healthcare and social safety nets. Things you have benefited from your entire life and now have to pay back into. As an American whose taxes go to fund a global imperialist war profiteering machine, quit fucking whining and raise your prices.

What's with the aggressive tone? Jesus fucking Christ I was just sharing an opinion and reassuring everyone I'd charge less for my art in my current position if I could. And just because I live in a social democracy doesn't mean I can't desire less taxes? Because some other country on the other side of the world uses their taxes for less than amicable causes??

But whatever. Just forget I ever even mentioned politics. Won't be doing that again anytime soon...

Appreciate the non-aggressive feedback though.

I apologize if I contributed to such in anyway via my own comment a bit up above.

after seeing your Shenzi i definitely plan to get another piece so this info will help me save up and account =), that is if you'll have me as a Commisioner again

I mean i would still try to commission you none the less. I love your work to just stop, but of course it would be a little harder for savings and all but i would still sent forms in if i have the money uwu

Eh, if that's what it takes ...

I dunno if it's the gov or the EU but either way shit's going south pretty damn bad cuz now ordering something from abroads gets the 24% slammed onto it, which means buying from, say, China is a bad option.

At least us Finns can avoid the PayPal extras cuz we're inside the same country, and of course wire transfer (or things like MobilePay) is an option.

^ With that in mind, are you paying the tax when someone inside Finland pays you with those domestic options directly to your bank acc ?

Yes obviously, this applies to Finland as much if not more so than any other countries.

But I do really prefer bank transfers because of the aformentioned fees.

From a pure financial standpoint, increase prices as needed.
Will it affect my purchase decisions? Maybe. Given how most people list their prices in $, that's gonna drop when converting to €. The danger of this is for me to make choices based on the number. But in the end, you sit in my general purchasing range, although I might be a one time thing.
Maybe it's a good time too to evaluate your pricing, both positive and negative. Are you paid well enough for your time spent? Maybe try cutting down on lower tier pricing, like how complex features is priced lower at the BWSketch tier, and work up from there depending how time consuming it is. Develop price ranges for extra edits/backgrounds. And base these not only on past commissions, but all art. Like ask yourself how would you price the background you did for the art trade with Kawwfee, I'd say this would be a medium-highly detailed, but with the bubbles I'd go for highly detailed.

Just increase prices by 25%? but make it like +VAT in the commission prices? And when people inquire, you can tell them what VAT is, and then get ghosted XD

VAT increases depending on price, so I can't just up all my base-prices by 24% before I know what the final price will be.

You have mentioned a few times in comments that you can’t up your base prices with VAT due to the final total price including add ons (like clothed/nude add on) being what matters for VAT calculations.

Why not up your base and add-on prices to also include VAT? Just raise every price: base, extra characters, edits, etc by 24% in addition to base/one character prices.

Using two character soft shade as an example:
Current:
EUR 160 + 140 = 300

With vat included (rounded up a few euro to nice numbers):
200 + 175 = 375

Job done, no? Or am I missing something about how VAT works?

This way it’s the same as now for customers to calculate their price by adding what they want up (vs adding VAT as a variable add-on like 160 + 140 = 300 + 24% = 372, which is what it sounds like you are planning?).

As for affordability I’m willing to bet that in practice you won’t see much of a difference in who can afford and is willing to commission you. In my experience seeing other artists up prices by about 25% fewer people will stop commissioning you than how many are saying they will or might need to.

Context for my thoughts:
- I have commissioned you a couple times already
- I plan to again in the future
- Other artists I have done business with have raised prices and it was ultimately not a problem as far as I could see from outside
- No matter how you implement the VAT most customers will understand it’s a necessary part of business

I hope my thoughts on this make sense and can help you make your decisions about this!

Edit: my wallet is ready, gimme that thick VAT

Actually, tax evasion is the only option

I'd rather not go to prison thank you very much