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Re-posted from 
**PLEASE PASS THIS AROUND IF YOU LOVE REPTILES!!***
I am calling into question the ethicality of breeding silky or silkback bearded dragons for profit, as well as the incorporation of these animals into breeding programs. For as short a time as these animals have been on the market, their health concerns are well understood - they are way more prone to injury, are hypersensitive to heat and ultraviolet light, and undergo shedding problems which can lead to missing toes or limbs. Unfortunately, this is a direct result of the desired trait of scaleless-ness. We are essentially breeding an animal that is handicapped and selling it for money because of its unique trait of being handicapped. This trend of playing God / creator / mad scientist is far too common in dog, cat, and horse-breeding industries, where concern for the health of the animal sits on the backburner, while creating new and popular "designer" breeds rests at the forefront. I liken this to the breeding of dogs with the double merle gene, in that they almost always go completely blind as a result. And yet, they are very high sellers. Greed is a powerful motivator.
From the "walking in circles" behavior of the Enigma Leopard Gecko, to the wobble-headed Spider Ball Pythons, we have seen what happens when we allow greed to overcome our desire to produce genetically healthy animals. Let's not allow the beloved bearded dragon to go the same route. I worry that this lack of regard for the welfare of our reptiles is leading the industry in an unethical direction. For all the joy these animals have given us, they deserve so much better than this. I am asking all reptile hobbiests to withhold purchase of "Silky" or "Silkback" bearded dragons in protest of where the herpetocultural industry is headed. In addition, I am urging breeders of Silkbacks to halt their programs involving these lizards. We owe it to our fellow hobbyists to ensure that we are putting healthy animals onto the market, and not saturating it with genetically inferior specimens just because they "look cool". And above all, we owe it to our cold-blooded friends who have captured our hearts and imaginations.
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Wobbles are not desired, but not life threatening at all.
http://www.ballpythoncare.net/spider-ball-python/
http://www.ballpythoncare.net/spider-ball-python/
not life threatening, maybe, but nothing is proven really. that doesnt mean its not neurological.
" The term “wobble” was coined when ball python breeders who produced spider ball pythons noticed that they seemed to “wobble” their heads when excited/stressed in some extreme cases they would even spin upside-down and just flat out act goofy. It’s thought to be a neurological issue that is some how connected to the spider gene. Nobody knows for sure what causes this particular behavior and I until someone is willing to put down some serious money to have it researched in debt we’ll probably never know. "
" The term “wobble” was coined when ball python breeders who produced spider ball pythons noticed that they seemed to “wobble” their heads when excited/stressed in some extreme cases they would even spin upside-down and just flat out act goofy. It’s thought to be a neurological issue that is some how connected to the spider gene. Nobody knows for sure what causes this particular behavior and I until someone is willing to put down some serious money to have it researched in debt we’ll probably never know. "
That is true. Wobbles are also fairly rare in the trade now since its not a desired trait and a good breeder will take all the necessary precautions to avoid wobbles. In my many years of owning snakes, I can honestly say I've never see a spider or bee wobble. And that's a good thing! :)
Refer to my comment below... my first snake, a pastel ball python, was constantly falling off her branches and banging her head off the side of her enclosure, because her wobbles were so severe. I'm pretty sure it's what killed her because she was found stretched out, half-wrapped around her branch, half leaning against the glass.
It's debatable. The same scaleless/hairless trait is in dogs and cats and require the same special needs but you don't see people as upset about it. It's very easy to avoid shedding problems and lost toes with soaks. *shrugs* I personally think silky dragons and scaleless snakes are kinda ugly and overpriced, imo, but I don't think they're suffering.
see, with dogs n cats, its different. they only have fur. their skin is still much more exposed to begin with. reptiles dont have the skin under their scales exposed. their skin isnt build to protects them at all. dogs n cats at least have some protection. also, the breeds that are hairless, really do have a little hair. its very thin, short n not like regular fur. they are very different species. you cant really compare. one is warm-blooded and has skin that is more protected. the other is cold-blooded and has skin that is never used to being exposed. it has no protection. they need heat and uv rays to survive, but their skin is not protected from burning or overheating. that isnt healthy. they risk losing toes. you never hear of a dog or a cat losing their toes from being "bald" and not being able to shed. the 2 cant really be compared.
please keep in mind that this is just friendly conversation n not me fighting or being nasty. lol text is hard to "read". :P
please keep in mind that this is just friendly conversation n not me fighting or being nasty. lol text is hard to "read". :P
Fair enough! I get what you're saying about not being able to compare the two. But snakes and lizards do have skin under their scales and the scales grow from the skin similar to the way fur or hair would, so that's where I was getting my comparison. If you've ever seen an obese snake(snakes can get fat! It's sad but funny looking at the same time), you can easily see the skin showing between the scales. They have an epidermis like our skin and everything. But you're right in that they're not completely the same. I just think that these newer scaleless morphs are more special needs than anything, and if the person wanting one knows that they require different or extra care and they're willing to provide the necessary care, then they should be allowed to buy one. I do agree though that the majority of people wanting these kinds of reptiles only get them on impulse buys and then the animal does suffer. Thankfully though, because of their price, they're not too popular.
yeah thats good tho. XD but i do get your point. its just that not enough ppl care enough about the special care, n only about "oh i have this rare spacial species n you dont. im special for having this n your not." lol ya know what i mean? n a fat snake?? omg that poor thing... XD
If you've ever felt the skin of a Chinese crested, it's very similar to our own skin, even with tiny, thin, sparse hair covering the whole body as you said. You pretty much need to treat the dog like you might treat a human child in the respect- cloth them to keep them warm, protect them from harsh sun.
Though I know very very little about reptiles in comparison, I would agree that it seems a scaleless reptile would likely be much more compromised than a "furless" cat or dog, in a way we cannot fully make up for.
Though I know very very little about reptiles in comparison, I would agree that it seems a scaleless reptile would likely be much more compromised than a "furless" cat or dog, in a way we cannot fully make up for.
Yes, I know. I've seen a xolo(aka chupacabra xD) in person along with hairless cats and rats, and I know they're usually not truly hairless. It was a poor comparison, I mean to compare more to the fact that the way fur/hair/scales are formed is similar on a basic level. But like I said, it was a weak comparison. :P I still stand by my opinion that the scaleless trait is a very special needs trait, but it doesn't make the animal suffer(if cared for properly, as in it's not a pet for the average person), and it isn't unethical YET. it could very well go down an unethical path and that would be awful. :(
I still think scaleless dragons are pretty ugly. I like my dragon and all his spikeyness the way he is. xP
I still think scaleless dragons are pretty ugly. I like my dragon and all his spikeyness the way he is. xP
I agree with this post.
I think the biggest problem here is that certain stores and unprofessional breeders will sell them to people as a fancy bearded dragon and people walk away with a new animal that they think they know how to take care of- for all they know they've done their research.
As long as the people caring for these animals know how to do so properly, they'll live a perfectly happy life. I would not compare this to head wobbles & enigma leos.
I think the biggest problem here is that certain stores and unprofessional breeders will sell them to people as a fancy bearded dragon and people walk away with a new animal that they think they know how to take care of- for all they know they've done their research.
As long as the people caring for these animals know how to do so properly, they'll live a perfectly happy life. I would not compare this to head wobbles & enigma leos.
Oh god. As tempting as they sound to hold and pet, the poor babies must really suffer. You have my word I won't buy or encourage anyone to buy those. I always question the ethics of these things. Same with Scottish folds, it's a codominant gene and if a cat has a copy from both parents it's fatal.
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