^^; I'll take that as you enjoying it

Welcome back! Great additional chapter to the Dragon Divers saga, and think the 'slower pace' of this story is a good exercise towards a full-fledged novel, which I think the whole dragon-diving idea, and a compilation of your collected D.D. works could become.

There still seems to be inconsistencies that haven't been addressed though, and more appear in this chapter. You state that no dragon remains at the arena longer than a decade as all have the urge to find a mate and raise a family -- yet this place seems to be the perfect life for dragons that may be barren, have injuries that would prevent a normal life in the wild, or lost their territory to a more agressive dragon. You have already painted a bleak picture of how easy it is for a dragon to be injured and starve to death with the case of Sunset, so I could see many down on their luck dragons trying to get in on the deal and those that can't if the positions are filled, quickly recruited by enterprising humans into other occupations far more lucrative than 'arena exectution beasts' for this is what the the diver dragons essentially are. Why would dragons be doing this for centuries, getting only good meals when they 'perform well', when there would be governments willing to feed them the best of foods, and offer a lifestyle far more natural to their predatory nature than performing beasts.

You imply there is something like a collective consicousness among the dragons in that 'they' all know the Diving tradition is a good thing for dragons to experience to better understand humans, though there is no explanation how this takes place for the dragons appear to have no 'leaders' and rarely if ever cooperate with other dragons. It is still hard to believe that the whole D.D. operation even works at all, when it is essentially 'run' by an 'honor system' mixed bag of transient dragons with no real loyalty to the place, and who like Sunset would like to eat the human managers, who are a dragon's natural food, yet in this case must order them around and discipline them. It is hard enough in our own world for humans to 'herd cats', but in this case it is a mouse trying to do it. I can only visuallise this whole thng working with some big bull, no nonsense dragon, fully loyal to the arena and has made this city his territory, as the real force running the place and keeping these transients in line, and kicking out those who have worn out their welcome.

I'll say it again. The whole D.D. thing is a great idea, but it really doesn't seem believable in the world you have created for all of the reasons I have taken the time to point out. I can still enjoy it though by dismissing your notions of the greater world, for if Dragon Diving has been going on for centuries, it is implausible that there wouldn't be many dragons involved in other activities with humans that would suit them far more. And if there is some 'collective consciousness' that tells the dragons this kind of contact with humans is a good thing and should continue, then it would be even more to the advantage of all dragons, that they integrate into other human activities that are FAR more significant than executing prisoners and entertaining crowds...... such as infiltrating and understanding the military systems of the humans and establishing positions of trust among the most powerful humans in their world (like mounts/bodyguards for kings). I realise all of these these complicates your basic Diving story, and doesn't need to be told here. But by outright dismissing such things in this story, yet claiming the Diving interaction with dragons has been going on for centuries, only diminishes the believability of you world. But saying all of that, I am still looking forward to the next chapter!

I do wish you could write one comment without acting pompous and better than me, treating me like a child making some novel mistake, for you to correct and pat on the head. Almost every problems you envision are due to your own perception, and I have corrected you on each and every one of them, a fact you seem incapable of remembering, I have even wasted my time trying to address your complaints not just in comments, but in the text. Frankly, I'm beginning to think you simply don't get it, and will never get it. For a minute, step back, and stop reading it like a story, start looking at it like a world. If something is happening which seems extraordinary or unbelievable, look for why it is so, or better yet, take the events as a way to learn how the world is, instead of immediately looking away to comment on how unbelievable you find it. It's a fantasy world, with dragons unlike most I've seen written, if there's something new, don't gripe at me about it. Now, once more, I'll try to point out the lack of foundations your points in this comment have, but to be blunt, I don't have the time to be offended by your every thoughtless approach to my work. I have tried to correct you on the fact that instances of dragon desperation are RARE, I specifically stated that the divers have trouble finding ENOUGH dragons to keep going, there isn't a massive backlog of dragons looking for work as you seem to be imagining. What happened to Sunset was an event that can happen, but these are rare, there aren't many dragons in all honesty, as alpha predators, there cannot be many, and with their long lifespans they breed infrequently, and have few offspring, so some dragons do die through rare occurrence, and that keep their population level, there is maybe one or two dragon deaths a year at maximum, sometimes decades can pass without a death, they are not toiling helplessly in the wild world, struggling for every meal, gazing longingly at human supplies... they eat as well, if not better than humans do, in the wild, Sunset's case only points out that dragons can have accidents, can be vulnerable.
In addition, to be clear, again, dragons are NOT humans, they do not seek employment, they do not seek high ranking human positions, they do not seek an easy life. Not to mention the key point that you have badgered me about, but choose to forget in this context. The humans have little farming, due to the fact that a dragon will swoop down and eat the livestock in most cases, they don't believe lives can be owned. Therefore, where are humans supposed to get this bounty of food to give to dragons who'd serve them? Humans get by, but they're kept lean, every year they struggle on their supplies, it's not a world of plenty. The majority of humans eat off food that has been hunted wild, not farmed, only a few settlements have farming, and that has to be done within the city, to keep dragons off. A dragon would be giving themselves to a lower bounty by working for humans, they'd eat better if they spent their time hunting, living like a dragon. Especially as humans are a part of their diet, and even if they wished to hunt on the side during their "work" humans would likely be forced off their menu. The trade off is to eat less well, but have slightly more consistency, and that's not a trade most dragons will wish to make. The divers, are an exception, not the rule. Dragons do it for AMUSEMENT, it's entertainment for them, they are not "working", the food they get is closer to offering than payment.

Next, is something you are greatly over-thinking, the answer is rather more simple. Dragons do have no leaders, they are independent, but when put together, they talk... such as the diving dragons, that is the group thoughts that Sunset speaks, all the dragons she knows, and hence by extension, the average dragon mindset. Keep in mind, Sunset is a character, she's capable of being wrong, she's capable of not speaking the whole truth, why you take the unprofessional stance of assuming every little thing any of my characters say is the literal truth of my world is baffling, god forbid I ever write a character who is a chronic liar, how would you cope with the sudden "inconsistencies"?
I would note, at this point, that dragons are also not cats, cats don't understand human speech, and are fairly incapable of thinking of anything beyond themselves and their direct kin at a stretch. As I noted, in the tale, a couple of lines written just for you, their "honor system" might seem fragile, and if you look at it, and think "this could never work" then assume this, it has worked, so what does that mean? It means that for some reason the dragons have followed it, and what does that mean? That means that they must indeed have a strong sense of loyalty, or right and wrong, and of obligation. Take the ramifications of having these traits as you will, but the world has dragons who behave as such, so don't call the way it works unbelievable or unrealistic, I write my dragons as dragons are to me, if that makes them more noble creatures than you can deal with, that's your problem.

I'll say this again too, for the last time I hope, this world, is like a real world, in that not everything that could happen is happening at once, as I felt I made very, very clear... this world is changing, and maybe, just maybe, more things will happen, but it's moving slowly. Keep in mind, the divers didn't have a dragon friendly beginning, it still had bad blood for a time, it is only the past century or so that the last of that is gone, and it is rising in leaps and bounds. It still went on for a long time before, and it did build Berin up, but it wasn't something that was prone to spread back then, it was a one off novelty.

I'm sorry you can't see my world for what it is, that you have to conjure these baseless arguments, and then give me grief for them. The fact is, you can't understand why I make my dragons the way I do, that's fine, I don't expect everyone to agree with me, you've got your own way you see dragons, and mine don't fit that. I'm sure you've built your view of a perfect dragon from all you've seen in the world, such that it seems the most "believable" state of being for a dragon. I've done the same, from my perspective. I've based my dragons on reasoning and fact, as you've likely done for your own view of dragons, all I want, is for us both to see dragons our own way, but especially for you to stop trying to force your view on me. I'm sure it seems like the only way for a dragon to be, and hence you'd be doing me a favor by keeping at it. But you're not.
To be honest, I find myself questioning your ability to critique any writing work, as I've seen no attempt by you to distinguish between character opinions and views, and the world at large, I've seen no attempt to understand my world, an essential thing I might add, as otherwise your suggestions are but empty air, after all, if you haven't peppered me with questions to understand how my world IS then it's meaningless to be "correcting" me on how it should be. I'll say this, if you're going to comment on my work again, do me a huge favor and stop typing like you're better than me, like your opinion is one I should listen to with any more intent than anyone else, you're one person, and a person who has gone out of his way to make sure I never feel any respect or camaraderie for by introducing yourself with a barrage of abuse, and I do mean abuse, your early comments were two parts direct insults to my person and one part "advice". If you're going to comment, at best you can treat me as an equal, at best, keeping in mind you're on my comment page, I didn't come to you looking for help, so you've no right acting so pompous. Finally, I'd request you try reading through my story twice before commenting, it's not something I expect most people to do, but only half of what I wrote, at best, seems to have ever gotten through, honestly I'm beginning to suspect you just skim-read things.

I do apologize if my rebuke seems a little harsh, but I've had enough of the same, and I've lost enough time typing the words "as I said before". I do prefer to have feedback, really, but if you're not going to even try to critique me properly then I'd rather not have to re-correct you over and over. As I said before some time ago, ask questions, find out about my world, then decide what you think doesn't fit, you approach a story as if you were its co-writer, immediately barraging what you think is wrong, but no, you're approaching as an outsider, so unless you try to learn what my world is, then you're not critiquing me, you're just blathering.

I think your dragons are great, better conceived than most. That's why I have taken so much of my own valuable time to suggest that the weakness in your stories comes not from the dragons, but the believability of the rest of your world.

Humans simply could never have attained the degree of civilation you give them if they did not have massive domestication and agriculture. This is the reason humans have developed beyond a Baboon, hunter, gatherer lifestyle. I spent a good deal of time explaining a scenario that would actually make your world seem realistic -- the dragons suddenly immigrate to a world probably much like the Roman Empire, complete with arenas. Then start from there. Yes in the area around the Dragonspine there it might not be feasible to hunt or grow crops, but if that were the case, it would be like an 1830's Mountain Man trading post, rather than the kind of Medievalesque village. But it is really hard to imagine the people could sustain themselves by hunting when they have to compete with dragons. Even in the days of Indians in America, where there were no dragons to compete with, regions could be quickly 'hunted out' and the villages moved to follow the game. To be such a big trading town, what exactly is traded in Berin if there are no crops, lifestock, or many furs to trade (since dragons eat their prey whole)?

The very first day that an intelligent, military-minded person in the Diving audience, saw that wild, free dragons were willing to perform for humans in the arena, would be the day dragons would be approached to do things that they would undoubtedly find more entertaining than trying NOT to eat people. Many of those other 'diversions' dragons might be offered could involve eating LOTS of humans, among the many other perks and benefits. There is no good argument why this would be the only 'entertainment' the human world would offer them.

I am also curious as to how receptive wild dragons would be when they found out that the first dragons were trapped prisoners? Were they all killed off before the volunteer dragons could join them. Actually this idea makes far more sense if you used the 'migration' option, which better explains the state pf of your world than anything else. Migrating dragons unfamiliar with the devious nature of humans might have got themselves captured. I cannot imagine this happening if dragons were already living in the area for hundreds of years, because the humans would be afraid that some relative of the trapped dragons may come to rescue them and punish the humans responible.

While I do like the mentality of your drgaons, I don't not see them all that noble based on their behavior. Some want to kill every human on sight and regard them all as prey despite being fellow sapients. Others deliberately eat their trusting divers, or will eat other dragon's divers if they can get away with it.

While some of this is 'rare' exceptions, or dragons simply with cruel senses of humor, that want to badger a new diver. You as the author-narrator can explain these things in the story to your reader, when it is unclear.

Everything I have taken the time to explain to you has been good advice, given to you because I WANT to see the 'world' you are trying to create be as realistic and pleasurable to read about, as your dragons are. Right now it isn't realistic, and you have never come up with a single fact supported by real history to refute anything I have said.

I do not know if you read or watch Game of Thrones. The books and series are very popular because Martin is a great world builder that relies on a lot of real history to make the fantasy elements seem real to intelligent, adult readers. You seem to be just the opposite. You have great writng talent, and a love of the dragons you've created, and that's commendable, but the world you have set them in is dismally 2-dimensiona, and unbelievable. It seems to e little more than a big island with a mountain running through it, with a port city on one end, and basically everybody hunts for a living even though the technology and culture are comparable to the Roman Empire. This doesn't make any sense at all.

Who am I to tell you this, I'm a professial historian/museum director, noted in some circles for my knowledge of ancient and medeival world and their military systems. I have several books in print, and in mulitple languages, possibly longer than you have even lived, and sold in places as prestigious as the British Museum bookshop. But I still like reading and writing about dragons and viewing artwork depicting them, and willing to take my some of my own valuable time to help authors whose work I happen to like. It is quite clear though that you think so highly of yourself that you won't listen to anybody else. You should be thankful there are are people willing to take their own valuable time to point out the shortcomings in work that at the core, certainly has great potential.

I simply don't agree with your assessment of the need for domestication and agriculture in levels beyond what they have. They devote their time differently than we did, due to dragons. They ceased being nomadic, because of dragons, once they found a suitable place, they settled, and they have been forced to develop more cleverly, because of dragons. I feel the presence of dragons greatly changes the development of these humans and, frankly, I think you need to respect that. The one thing I think you're overlooking, in your quoting of history, is predation, predation of the humans. Their numbers don't rise, in most places they live in the quantity that the world around them can manage, hence they don't need to wander onwards, nor do they need to resort to domestication attempts. There is a sort of agriculture, but rarely like we have now, as that needs lots of space, instead, they simply tinker for lack of a better word, they'll plant seeds of trees or bushes they want more of on their way.

As I have told you, it doesn't matter how clever or military minded a human goes to see the divers though, the dragons do not want to be part of a military, and then please recall, there isn't nearly as many wars, barely skirmishes, so the dragons would not be getting a diet of "lots of humans" they'd have the same diet problems. In fact, it would be worse. In the divers, they do something they'd never normally do, so there's little instinct for it, but no matter how you look at it, what you'd suggest they'd do in an army would be much more like normal dragon activities, but they'd still not be allowed to eat the humans. Whether it is scouting, training, or anything, seeing as there's no enemy to devour, they'd be surrounded by opportunities, and be forbidden to take them. Also, I do not believe I at an point said this was the "only" entertainment the human world offered them, there are instances of other things, as I've said before, so stop assuming things, honestly it's getting annoying

For the last time though, stop pitching this migration idea, when you write your dragon story, you can use it, but it's not what happened, so stop trying to make me rewrite my whole story canon. But, as you actually did ask a question, I'll answer that. The first dragons there eventually got too big, and broke out, leaving the then town in fear, but, the human who'd been behind things was dead, so the dragons didn't seek revenge, but spread word of things. The first dragons to return were desperate, and took to diving because of that, but, to others who glanced in, it looked fun. The days before were the actions of a few human individuals who were dead, they were in the past, so there wasn't such turmoil in the minds of the dragons. Maybe they were wary at first, but little more. I would note, of course, that a dragon to whom humans are just another meal would be just as likely, if not more so, to be naive to their potential if they've overlooked it, a migrating group of dragons, seeing something new, would be wary, and as I've said before, that would lead in my mind to a complete sort of integration scenario, which this world does not have.

I wold note, you have completely misunderstood what I see in the nobility of dragons, there is no harm to that by the fact they see a prey species as prey, and apart from a few exceptions they would never "kill every human on sight" even those who hate humans don't kill what they won't eat. And to clarify, as you must not have read so, the dragons in the divers don't "eat other dragon's divers if they can get away with it" they will simply hold much less restraint, but they still need to be provoked, same for dragons eating their own divers. I'm unsure why you are the one person who does not see the text on the page clearly... and I do hope you're not suggesting I clarify for the reader each time a character lies, because that would be pointless to setting up a scene or mood

Lastly, you are a pretentious, stuck up human being, who ruins all free expression. For gods sake, read your own words "It is quite clear though that you think so highly of yourself that you won't listen to anybody else" What the hell are you basing this on? Because I disagree with you? Because I think your "good advice" is poorly reasoned? How far do you need to be stuck up your own ass before you think these things? I have taken advice over my entire life, I wouldn't be able to write dragons like I do today if I hadn't completely changed my point of view. But I listen to people I RESPECT and to people who respect me. You are none of these things, hence I think you're a waste of MY valuable time. If you think that the fact I don't agree with your point of view means I ignore all other opinions, which you have proven to think twice, then you are a pathetic excuse for a human being, so full of yourself that you cannot understand that other people have valid opinions besides yourself.
Here's where I want you to really listen your knowledge of our history IS WORTHLESS IN THIS CONTEXT. Sorry for the all caps, but you need to get that through your thick head. I'm not writing a clone of earth, I'm not writing our history, a little tweaked, I'm writing humans with a different history, with a different path, and hence with different results. If you are such a history buff, just look at the path of discovery and development in human history, great people have risen, to change the path of technology and invention, people far ahead of their time. Cultures don't grow evenly either, and single, slight deviations in their path can be devastating, just look at the invention of glass. No, you have no right to be this full of yourself, and you need to understand, that you being a professional historian means absolutely nothing in a world of fiction. I'm sure some writers do base their world heavily on our own, I have not done that. I have looked at humans, as animals, from a biological standpoint, and considered what changes to their path are likely if you add dragons. While it may not seem realistic TO YOU, due to your bountiful knowledge of how things worked in our own world, then fine, but I've chosen the focus of MY REALISM on biological and psychological factors, both are fact filled, but the difference is, you cannot seem to accept that just because I'm not writing to our history, that doesn't degrade the story-line. I'm not a historic writer, I'm a fantasy writer, and frankly I'm not trying to make it seem like these humans followed our history. I will write my world, with a history I develop myself, and I will keep it true to that history.
You know what, I have tried to be nice, I really, really have, I haven't simply blocked you when everyone I do take advice from said you were just a bad sort, I've tried to see things from your side even though you've ignored my side, and I have tried to see you as helpful, I have really tried, but you know what, your advice isn't good like you think it is, it's not helpful, and it wastes my time. So if you still cannot see my point, and if you bluntly refuse to critique with any respect for me, if simply as a writer, if only the due courtesy that is owed to somebody when you come onto their pages, then I don't want you. You have treated me with no more dignity and respect than something you found on the sole of your shoe from day one, and you have made no attempt to understand why I have written my world the way I do, every tale I have written you have not asked a single question, you have made your assumptions, mostly wrong ones, and then berated me for them. So if you're such a sad individual that you think only you can ever be right, and if you've sufficiently stroked your ego into thinking I'm turning down everyone instead of just you, and you alone, then go and be content with the fantasy world you're living in, and leave mine alone.

Basically take your "real history" and shove it up your ass, I'm writing a world whose history has been different from the real world from day one, and I will not listen any more to a fool who cannot understand the crucial, overwhelming flaw of logic in suggesting my world's history, dragons and all, should play out like that of the real world...

wish I could fave comments on FA

Authors of your caliber are rare, to draw readers into rereading, a teasing piece of meat to still only that bit of hunger, to yearn for more than that nibble. So far I've reread all your tales, from your first, to your most recent, and starve for more.

I would await the next installment, with baited breath, as a diver about to plunge down the maw of the dragon for the ring.

With any luck, I may have this tale finished within the week, at the latest, so something for you to dive into

No rush. ^^; Take your time to take our breath away.