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This was specially done for quickxyk and vantid.
Morning light reaches over the mountains of the spirit lands. The Shaman performs a special rite of the gift of another day and new beginnings. He remembers the wisdom of his ancestors keeping the spirits close to him and memories alive.
Mixed media
Morning light reaches over the mountains of the spirit lands. The Shaman performs a special rite of the gift of another day and new beginnings. He remembers the wisdom of his ancestors keeping the spirits close to him and memories alive.
Mixed media
Category Artwork (Traditional) / All
Species Coyote
Size 885 x 581px
File Size 84.4 kB
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/4027385/
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/4027385/
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/2146331/
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/440419/
this artist has been doing this for years …. a lot of us have asked them to stop I gave your twitter a peek but I didn't wanna assume race but you aren't indigenous please don't tell us what Not to be upset about …..when we have been rather civil in our asks of how to present feathers and other aspects of our culture this artist removes all negative responses though so don't worry eventually this will be gone. also regardless of new accounts or not we are allowed to have valid concern of culture appropriation. however I've wasted my time trying to educate you on the matter because you wont get it.
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/4027385/
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/2146331/
https://www.furaffinity.net/view/440419/
this artist has been doing this for years …. a lot of us have asked them to stop I gave your twitter a peek but I didn't wanna assume race but you aren't indigenous please don't tell us what Not to be upset about …..when we have been rather civil in our asks of how to present feathers and other aspects of our culture this artist removes all negative responses though so don't worry eventually this will be gone. also regardless of new accounts or not we are allowed to have valid concern of culture appropriation. however I've wasted my time trying to educate you on the matter because you wont get it.
"A lot of us have asked them to stop"
1) Who is "US'.
2) When did you ask.
You speak in a collective while hiding individuality. You claim to have done something with there being no public record of having done so for the amount of time you claim to have done it. This image (as an example) has been on FA for EIGHT YEARS, yet it's first negative comments have come in the past 3 days from 2 accounts created in under 1 year, one in as many days as the comment has existed. So.. yeah. a little sus, you must admit. Not saying these things haven't happened, but it's not supported by evidence. (Also, note, no one is obligated to reply to rude comments posted to their artwork on FA. Perhaps a study of social interaction, communication, and persuasion wouldn't hurt much either.) Expressing shock that a comment isn't being met with the desired remarks when you're a bit of an asshole out the gate shouldn't be much of a surprise. More bees with honey and all that. BTW, how old are you anyway. I believe this lack of social tact in communication may have something to do with that and it's always good for context to know just what gen of person one is dealing with.
1) Who is "US'.
2) When did you ask.
You speak in a collective while hiding individuality. You claim to have done something with there being no public record of having done so for the amount of time you claim to have done it. This image (as an example) has been on FA for EIGHT YEARS, yet it's first negative comments have come in the past 3 days from 2 accounts created in under 1 year, one in as many days as the comment has existed. So.. yeah. a little sus, you must admit. Not saying these things haven't happened, but it's not supported by evidence. (Also, note, no one is obligated to reply to rude comments posted to their artwork on FA. Perhaps a study of social interaction, communication, and persuasion wouldn't hurt much either.) Expressing shock that a comment isn't being met with the desired remarks when you're a bit of an asshole out the gate shouldn't be much of a surprise. More bees with honey and all that. BTW, how old are you anyway. I believe this lack of social tact in communication may have something to do with that and it's always good for context to know just what gen of person one is dealing with.
They have said it a few times now Indigenous people i've come across this artist at conventions explained that its not something that should be done for just any one who wants it feathers are earned and have cultural meaning I asked them personally to not do eagle feathers to make them unrealistic colors I mean you started stuff on Leviathans valid comment this artist had been ripping off our culture for many years since 1998. you as someone who's non white should realize this isn't a great representation im personally chiming in because i was one of the people asking them to stop years ago at a convention. None of the two above were rude you look bad here they explained why the art was wrong and you pushed it I guess more for the beware. being a white knight isn't a good look you just seem anti Indigenous
BUT, you do realize, you are commenting on an image that's been here for EIGHT YEARS. An imagine mind you that according to the description was commissioned, 8 years ago, who people we don't know the origin of and it doesn't appear anyone asked (not that it's honest an artist's obligation to give out public information about their client, mind you).
Feathers can have meaning outside of indigenous cultures too, and some groups of people have used them merely as decorative parts for their won art. Indigenous tribes do not have a monopoly or a patent on how people want to use feathers. That would be like me telling you that the only right way to see or portray snakes is as healers, or that the cross has only ever been a symbol for Christianity, even though it shows up in pagan ideologies as well. Many coastal people have used shark teeth for jewelry, so can only they portray people wearing a shark tooth necklace? See how silly that sounds?
Also you say "our" and I have to ask, to whom are you referring, you tribe specifically? (Which you still have not mentioned what tribe that is). Indigenous people in general, even though they are not a mono-culture and have various beliefs and practices that make them different from each other, but also share a lot of similarities in certain aspects and elements. You certainly talk about indigenous people as if they are some unified collective.
Artist who want to depict aspects of cultures or have a piece with a specific aesthetic usually do some level of research to make a sort of general identifiable pattern that visually conveys that aesthetic. Like Celtic knots convey Celtic culture, but also convey Norse culture, and show up as remnant in other cultures, but generally it points to a more Celtic aesthetic. And often times they will adapt those "patterns" and features into something that will evoke that culture and aesthetic while making sure they are not directly trying to pass as being representative of a specific culture or its traditions and practices so it can exist as on its own, which I think is the most respectful way of doing it. It is why WotC hired a bunch of culture experts to write guides that artists could follow when making art for Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty. So it could be it's own thing while still evoking Japanese culture, and Neon Dynasty was especially well received as a result. Now imagine trying to do that work as a single artist who might may or may not have as much time or the resources that WotC has. So they do the best they can.
Like, in all of this I could be really flippant and call you out for using Paganism/Wiccan and its symbology in one of your pieces which is primarily a European practice, but I don't really care, because I think the value of you having an interest in Paganism/Wiccan even just on an aesthetic level outweighs me or others trying to gatekeep it and keep others from sharing their take on it. Again, even if it is purely for the aesthetics and not even to get into what Paganism and Wiccan is about as a sort of quasi-religious philosophy.
Also you say "our" and I have to ask, to whom are you referring, you tribe specifically? (Which you still have not mentioned what tribe that is). Indigenous people in general, even though they are not a mono-culture and have various beliefs and practices that make them different from each other, but also share a lot of similarities in certain aspects and elements. You certainly talk about indigenous people as if they are some unified collective.
Artist who want to depict aspects of cultures or have a piece with a specific aesthetic usually do some level of research to make a sort of general identifiable pattern that visually conveys that aesthetic. Like Celtic knots convey Celtic culture, but also convey Norse culture, and show up as remnant in other cultures, but generally it points to a more Celtic aesthetic. And often times they will adapt those "patterns" and features into something that will evoke that culture and aesthetic while making sure they are not directly trying to pass as being representative of a specific culture or its traditions and practices so it can exist as on its own, which I think is the most respectful way of doing it. It is why WotC hired a bunch of culture experts to write guides that artists could follow when making art for Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty. So it could be it's own thing while still evoking Japanese culture, and Neon Dynasty was especially well received as a result. Now imagine trying to do that work as a single artist who might may or may not have as much time or the resources that WotC has. So they do the best they can.
Like, in all of this I could be really flippant and call you out for using Paganism/Wiccan and its symbology in one of your pieces which is primarily a European practice, but I don't really care, because I think the value of you having an interest in Paganism/Wiccan even just on an aesthetic level outweighs me or others trying to gatekeep it and keep others from sharing their take on it. Again, even if it is purely for the aesthetics and not even to get into what Paganism and Wiccan is about as a sort of quasi-religious philosophy.
Are people who are sharing giving context about the image or are they just being given "Hey look, picture bad" and zero information about it's age, and it's origin of being commissioned work? On a surface level I get it. No one likes to see images of exploitation or people put in a negative light. But there's also a way to go about doing it and lately, the way people are conducting themselves has not been cool.
SO, 1, the artist is not removing comments, the original people making the comments have been, or certain comments have been deleted by system admins. If a comment is removed by the artist (who, doesn't really do the social media thing as it is) would "Hidden By Page Owner." - so I am going to nip that false statement right away. And how do I know, I went through all 493 pieces that are currently in her main gallery.
Also by going through all 493 pieces I learned a lot about how she might be gathering inspiration, and I can almost certainly tell you that she is likely looking at a lot of common mundane things like general clothing, and finding similarities that are shared between multiple groups of people, and then modifying them so they capture the right aesthetic while distancing itself from anything overly specific.
So you are both claiming that she is not adequately representing certain elements correctly, and thus will try to capture a concept or idea that is generically part of human culture in the region to avoid specific misrepresentation of something that might hold specific cultural significance, but then also get mad because now it is now genericizing a collection of cultures, both current and past. It is like nothing it good enough for you people. You can't have it both ways, no single group of people can control a general aesthetic that is part of HUMAN culture.
This would be like Scandinavians saying you can't depict fantasy versions of their culture because something isn't presented in some specific fashion even though variations and remnants of their culture show up all over the place, because a lot of the cultures they ran into while going out on vikings to Britannia, Iceland, Northern parts of Canada all had influences on those cultures there, some smaller and some larger. Like, wouldn't that sound like gatekeeping to you? Cause if you are going to claim you want one form of treatment for your culture(s) (because Native American culture varies by tribe, region, and is not a mono-culture unto itself.) than you should be more than willing to apply that same sort of condition towards other cultures.
The piece is showing an appreciation and fascination for an aspect that has been part of many cultures. performing a morning ritual as a shaman is not unique the Native America or even America in general. Maybe the ultra specific practice found in a specific tribe would be something you'd avoid, but mixing in aspects from many places is how artists make a fantasy piece, so that the piece can draw from places of influence while making the piece its own stand alone version of a morning rite.
I mean, this sort of take on aesthetics and fantasy art would be like modern Greeks saying people cannot depict fantasy versions of oracles, because they are the sole arbiters about how scrying occurred, even though there were likely many traditions for performing scrying, even within the Greek City States from the Ancient World, so who is to say what is a correct way of depicting it if someone simply wants to capture the feel of being a cities oracle and drawing motif references from many places so that it can exist apart from Ancient Greece to become its own thing.
Like, specific objects can have a high level of meaning to one group of people, but it can also have a completely opposite meaning or purpose to another group of people and neither one of them is inherently wrong about that symbolism. So when you are drawing inspiration from a single area and single group of people, there are fine lines that artists walk as a delicate balance of trying to make something their own while evoking a specific motif and aesthetic. It is why WotC hired Culture Experts when designing things for Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, which is basically cyberpunk Japanese culture, and they had general guides about what to avoid depicting, or that certain things needed to be altered if they were going to exist, or what things could be used more freely. An individual artist cannot be a culture expert for every known culture, so they will do as much research as they can and make a judgement call about to avoid depicting, usually specific aspects and traditions, while taking the more broad concepts and then adapting them.
Like, if I tell you something is dressed in a Celtic style, there are likely several things which come to mind that make you think of Celtic culture. The most obvious one is intricate knotwork art on various objects. And that is a sort of Stereotype, but it is also something which appears in Norse cultures, because they got it from the Celts. But generally speaking it would be something that an artist might use to convey a Celtic aesthetic in addition to other elements from Celtic culture. And usually someone will draw on the most common elements that help identify where something fits, because that is how human psychology works.
So I really think you need to stop and consider what artists actually do in a lot of cases. People are perfect though, mistakes are going to be made. But you people seriously need to find a better hobby than harassing a fantasy artist who is just trying to show their appreciation for various aspects of HUMAN culture from various regions.
Also by going through all 493 pieces I learned a lot about how she might be gathering inspiration, and I can almost certainly tell you that she is likely looking at a lot of common mundane things like general clothing, and finding similarities that are shared between multiple groups of people, and then modifying them so they capture the right aesthetic while distancing itself from anything overly specific.
So you are both claiming that she is not adequately representing certain elements correctly, and thus will try to capture a concept or idea that is generically part of human culture in the region to avoid specific misrepresentation of something that might hold specific cultural significance, but then also get mad because now it is now genericizing a collection of cultures, both current and past. It is like nothing it good enough for you people. You can't have it both ways, no single group of people can control a general aesthetic that is part of HUMAN culture.
This would be like Scandinavians saying you can't depict fantasy versions of their culture because something isn't presented in some specific fashion even though variations and remnants of their culture show up all over the place, because a lot of the cultures they ran into while going out on vikings to Britannia, Iceland, Northern parts of Canada all had influences on those cultures there, some smaller and some larger. Like, wouldn't that sound like gatekeeping to you? Cause if you are going to claim you want one form of treatment for your culture(s) (because Native American culture varies by tribe, region, and is not a mono-culture unto itself.) than you should be more than willing to apply that same sort of condition towards other cultures.
The piece is showing an appreciation and fascination for an aspect that has been part of many cultures. performing a morning ritual as a shaman is not unique the Native America or even America in general. Maybe the ultra specific practice found in a specific tribe would be something you'd avoid, but mixing in aspects from many places is how artists make a fantasy piece, so that the piece can draw from places of influence while making the piece its own stand alone version of a morning rite.
I mean, this sort of take on aesthetics and fantasy art would be like modern Greeks saying people cannot depict fantasy versions of oracles, because they are the sole arbiters about how scrying occurred, even though there were likely many traditions for performing scrying, even within the Greek City States from the Ancient World, so who is to say what is a correct way of depicting it if someone simply wants to capture the feel of being a cities oracle and drawing motif references from many places so that it can exist apart from Ancient Greece to become its own thing.
Like, specific objects can have a high level of meaning to one group of people, but it can also have a completely opposite meaning or purpose to another group of people and neither one of them is inherently wrong about that symbolism. So when you are drawing inspiration from a single area and single group of people, there are fine lines that artists walk as a delicate balance of trying to make something their own while evoking a specific motif and aesthetic. It is why WotC hired Culture Experts when designing things for Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty, which is basically cyberpunk Japanese culture, and they had general guides about what to avoid depicting, or that certain things needed to be altered if they were going to exist, or what things could be used more freely. An individual artist cannot be a culture expert for every known culture, so they will do as much research as they can and make a judgement call about to avoid depicting, usually specific aspects and traditions, while taking the more broad concepts and then adapting them.
Like, if I tell you something is dressed in a Celtic style, there are likely several things which come to mind that make you think of Celtic culture. The most obvious one is intricate knotwork art on various objects. And that is a sort of Stereotype, but it is also something which appears in Norse cultures, because they got it from the Celts. But generally speaking it would be something that an artist might use to convey a Celtic aesthetic in addition to other elements from Celtic culture. And usually someone will draw on the most common elements that help identify where something fits, because that is how human psychology works.
So I really think you need to stop and consider what artists actually do in a lot of cases. People are perfect though, mistakes are going to be made. But you people seriously need to find a better hobby than harassing a fantasy artist who is just trying to show their appreciation for various aspects of HUMAN culture from various regions.
Nor is this piece treating your culture and aesthetics as a costume. Cultures are not just aesthetics, but all cultures have an aesthetic that visually separates them.
Also, indigenous people hold no monopoly on these types of rituals when many many human cultures around the world had similar rituals. So there is no exclusivity clause that I am missing is there?
Your attire is not even wholly unique, because the dress and wear modern tribes have is a result of an every evolving culture. Being humans have been in N. America for 13k plus years, there is 100% certainty that modern cultures have not always been as they are now, and likely have borrowed, shared, stolen, adapted, changed, and altered other tribes' traditions, as much as their ancestors, and from tribes that died out before them. Or some tribes may have merged into one where the new one now shares aesthetics from both tribes. And this is just using deductive reasoning and logic about how human culture tends to evolve and influence each other.
Like, here is the thing. Artists can draw influence and inspiration from anywhere they want, and will often do some level of research to make sure they are capturing an idea and concept correctly. Often adapting and changing elements from places of existing influence so that they can evoke the feel and aesthetic of a region/culture while making sure it can exist separate from it so that one is not misrepresenting a specific thing from that culture.
It is entirely why Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty evoke Japanese culture without it actually being Japanese, and why WotC hired culture experts to write guides for the artists to follow when making their art. Now imagine doing this as a solo artist with far more limited resources. So no, this piece is not appropriating in the way you intend or using the general symbology as a "costume" but shows an interest and influence from aspects of HUMAN culture found in a specific region of the world. Because it is not supposed to reflect a specific ritual, but the concept and general idea of the ritual that shamans of many cultures the world over have performed in some way shape or form.
Also, indigenous people hold no monopoly on these types of rituals when many many human cultures around the world had similar rituals. So there is no exclusivity clause that I am missing is there?
Your attire is not even wholly unique, because the dress and wear modern tribes have is a result of an every evolving culture. Being humans have been in N. America for 13k plus years, there is 100% certainty that modern cultures have not always been as they are now, and likely have borrowed, shared, stolen, adapted, changed, and altered other tribes' traditions, as much as their ancestors, and from tribes that died out before them. Or some tribes may have merged into one where the new one now shares aesthetics from both tribes. And this is just using deductive reasoning and logic about how human culture tends to evolve and influence each other.
Like, here is the thing. Artists can draw influence and inspiration from anywhere they want, and will often do some level of research to make sure they are capturing an idea and concept correctly. Often adapting and changing elements from places of existing influence so that they can evoke the feel and aesthetic of a region/culture while making sure it can exist separate from it so that one is not misrepresenting a specific thing from that culture.
It is entirely why Kamigawa: Neon Dynasty evoke Japanese culture without it actually being Japanese, and why WotC hired culture experts to write guides for the artists to follow when making their art. Now imagine doing this as a solo artist with far more limited resources. So no, this piece is not appropriating in the way you intend or using the general symbology as a "costume" but shows an interest and influence from aspects of HUMAN culture found in a specific region of the world. Because it is not supposed to reflect a specific ritual, but the concept and general idea of the ritual that shamans of many cultures the world over have performed in some way shape or form.
I don't remember asking you or tagging you ?? these are just a ton of words saying you feel cultural appropriation is alright or are you just looking for people who are native who are actually upset ?? Get a life dont like our comments don't comment that makes you anti native and dont worry im adding all your comments to the twitter beware.
we were the original people to use eagle feathers.... and mocking our ancient medicines isnt cute also Each type of feather represents something different. The eagle’s feather, however, is one of the most esteemed. In Native culture, the eagle is considered the strongest and bravest of all birds. For this reason, its feathers symbolize what is highest, bravest, strongest, and holiest. It has strong medicine. some of our culture is private eagle feathers are also exclusive to white sage and smudging.
we were the original people to use eagle feathers.... and mocking our ancient medicines isnt cute also Each type of feather represents something different. The eagle’s feather, however, is one of the most esteemed. In Native culture, the eagle is considered the strongest and bravest of all birds. For this reason, its feathers symbolize what is highest, bravest, strongest, and holiest. It has strong medicine. some of our culture is private eagle feathers are also exclusive to white sage and smudging.
That's fine so long as you put the entire comment and context to it versus taking things out of context to make yourself look superior.
I found this because I legit looked through all 493 pieces to prove DN is not hiding comments on her posts, because none of the hidden comments says "Hidden by page owner" all say "by its owner""
So what you do you say to all the people who also claim to be First Nation and enjoy and appreciate DN's? Clearly you are speaking for people on their behalf.
Not one of your comments tries to refute any of my points.
And that is fine, but trying to say you have ownership over an animal and what it might symbolize to others seems like gatekeeping to me. Again that would be like me trying to tell you that you should only ever depict snakes as healers. Others can derive different or similar meaning from the same source.
Also I am not an ornithologist, but I don't think you are either, but even a quick search shows the feathers here may or may not be from an eagle, cause Great Horned Owl feathers look similar.
Also I doubt your current tribes were the first to uses feathers for any sort of meaning in rituals. Again humans have lived on the N. American continent for at least 13k years. How far back can modern tribes trace there history. And likely the meaning of each hasn't been static either. Again 13,000 years of time to consider.
Again if think any of my statements are mocking, reread them, because no where am I saying you shouldn't believe what you do, just that you should consider that things can have meaning to others, and neither is right or wrong.
I found this because I legit looked through all 493 pieces to prove DN is not hiding comments on her posts, because none of the hidden comments says "Hidden by page owner" all say "by its owner""
So what you do you say to all the people who also claim to be First Nation and enjoy and appreciate DN's? Clearly you are speaking for people on their behalf.
Not one of your comments tries to refute any of my points.
And that is fine, but trying to say you have ownership over an animal and what it might symbolize to others seems like gatekeeping to me. Again that would be like me trying to tell you that you should only ever depict snakes as healers. Others can derive different or similar meaning from the same source.
Also I am not an ornithologist, but I don't think you are either, but even a quick search shows the feathers here may or may not be from an eagle, cause Great Horned Owl feathers look similar.
Also I doubt your current tribes were the first to uses feathers for any sort of meaning in rituals. Again humans have lived on the N. American continent for at least 13k years. How far back can modern tribes trace there history. And likely the meaning of each hasn't been static either. Again 13,000 years of time to consider.
Again if think any of my statements are mocking, reread them, because no where am I saying you shouldn't believe what you do, just that you should consider that things can have meaning to others, and neither is right or wrong.
We hold our rituals and our Regalia as sacred you inconsiderate person I never brought up Japan you did I am standing for my culture my rituals alone also holayyy using the word Shaman is disgusting it's a catch all term for medicine people The word shaman is used to primitize our culture we ARE STILL HERE we should not be appropriated
Me, inconsiderate, when it is you who are harrying an artist for wanting to express an interest in something that is part of another culture while also trying to do so respectfully by not directly lifting those traditions but filtering a general aspect that is shared beyond the walls of a single culture.
I used them as an example because they too exist, or are you implying that you hold some level of privilege and entitlement over that fact.
But your harrying of people who want to engage with something beyond their culture without direct lifting is only going to make it so people don't engage with your cultures in any form. No one will want to work with you because they will fear the ire of potentially being disrespectful. An acquaintance of mine said something similar happened to Northern Scandinavian native peoples in his home country. And now they are suffering for it. Or is this your intention, barricade your culture off so much no one wants to engage with it?
I used them as an example because they too exist, or are you implying that you hold some level of privilege and entitlement over that fact.
But your harrying of people who want to engage with something beyond their culture without direct lifting is only going to make it so people don't engage with your cultures in any form. No one will want to work with you because they will fear the ire of potentially being disrespectful. An acquaintance of mine said something similar happened to Northern Scandinavian native peoples in his home country. And now they are suffering for it. Or is this your intention, barricade your culture off so much no one wants to engage with it?
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