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Ok, were taking a break from fennecs for awhile. The Beretta 93r was the developed in the mid-70's and is machine-pistol designed to provide automatic firepower in a small easily carried package. Like its predecessor the Beretta 951R, it was derived from a pistol in Beretta's existing product line the Model 92. Also known as the M9 by US. Forces. Due to its very high rate of fire, up to 1100 rpm according to some sources, the designers wisely built in a three round burst limiter to aid in controlling the weapon and managing ammo from its 20rd magazine. Semi-auto is also an option for the weapon.
Depending on the year of manufacture the 93r will have some style of muzzle brake attached to it; also it has a folding front grip to help reduce muzzle climb during firing. To further add in keeping the weapon under control and to increase longer range accuracy a detachable folding stock was developed for it. For all this effort the Beretta 93r is no longer listed in Beretta's product line and was a weapon of dubious value. Except in the hands of a highly trained individual it was a tricky weapon to control in burst mode. In semi-auto mode it offered no advantage over its brethren the Model 92, except for a larger magazine, and if one wanted a true submachine gun there are better purpose built weapons on the market. Still it was used by various groups like the Italian Carabineri's for some years.
Despite these limitations the 93r does look cool and it has appealed to Hollywood action movies. It appeared highly modified in Robocop (1987) as his main sidearm. Also there are several nice screen shots of it in La Femme Nikita (1990).
Depending on the year of manufacture the 93r will have some style of muzzle brake attached to it; also it has a folding front grip to help reduce muzzle climb during firing. To further add in keeping the weapon under control and to increase longer range accuracy a detachable folding stock was developed for it. For all this effort the Beretta 93r is no longer listed in Beretta's product line and was a weapon of dubious value. Except in the hands of a highly trained individual it was a tricky weapon to control in burst mode. In semi-auto mode it offered no advantage over its brethren the Model 92, except for a larger magazine, and if one wanted a true submachine gun there are better purpose built weapons on the market. Still it was used by various groups like the Italian Carabineri's for some years.
Despite these limitations the 93r does look cool and it has appealed to Hollywood action movies. It appeared highly modified in Robocop (1987) as his main sidearm. Also there are several nice screen shots of it in La Femme Nikita (1990).
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Having fired the 92 on a range, I immediately wanted to refer to the gun as 'the kangaroo'. It flips vertically in my hands when it fires. It seems to be weighted well to come back to center (more or less) after firing, but I found the effect rather unnerving, and I did not like the gun. No other pistol I've fired wants to rotate so much like that.
For that reason, it always seemed strange to me that this particular pistol would be used for a machine pistol variant with a ludicrous rate of fire. The plain pistol already feels like it wants to turn around and shoot you when you fire it... I can't imagine what firing the thing on full auto must be like. It seems like it'd be a struggle just to keep it pointed in the general direction of the target!
Someone who could wield one of these things and hit accurately with it would be a very scary guy since it is a lot of firepower in a package as tiny as it gets. But I gotta wonder if anyone actually can, or if the concept of such a person is a more theoretical kind of thing.
For that reason, it always seemed strange to me that this particular pistol would be used for a machine pistol variant with a ludicrous rate of fire. The plain pistol already feels like it wants to turn around and shoot you when you fire it... I can't imagine what firing the thing on full auto must be like. It seems like it'd be a struggle just to keep it pointed in the general direction of the target!
Someone who could wield one of these things and hit accurately with it would be a very scary guy since it is a lot of firepower in a package as tiny as it gets. But I gotta wonder if anyone actually can, or if the concept of such a person is a more theoretical kind of thing.
Theoretically, due to the high cyclic rate and the burst limiter all three rounds exit the barrel before the muzzle flip carries it very far. I'm told that in good hands keeping them in a 'dinner plate' at ten meters isn't that problematic, and recovery is no worse than from a double-tap. Sounds reasonable, although this particular machine pistol is something I've (sadly) never laid hands on.
That said, I'm curious about your experience with the 92! Most folks find it extremely controllable, and it isn't like it's a rare or unusual sidearm. I'm guessing the ergonomics of the grip were just not something that worked for your hands, as I've rarely heard of complaints about unusual flip. Any chance you got some of the old high-pressure L7A1 ammunition or some other similar NATO SMG ball? There are unconfirmed stories of QMs mistakenly passing the hot stuff out on the range for pistol drill, and that'd certainly give you some severe muzzle climb...If not wrist sprain.
That said, I'm curious about your experience with the 92! Most folks find it extremely controllable, and it isn't like it's a rare or unusual sidearm. I'm guessing the ergonomics of the grip were just not something that worked for your hands, as I've rarely heard of complaints about unusual flip. Any chance you got some of the old high-pressure L7A1 ammunition or some other similar NATO SMG ball? There are unconfirmed stories of QMs mistakenly passing the hot stuff out on the range for pistol drill, and that'd certainly give you some severe muzzle climb...If not wrist sprain.
Yes I'm curious about Skant's problem with extreme muzzle climb to since I found both the Beretta 92 and its Brazilian cousin the Taurus 92 to be very easy to handle even with +P ammo? The only problem I had was that the Taurus grips were way too smooth and had almost an oily feel to them. Like the manufacturer had put way too varnish on them.
I found the weapon a bit odd because it didn't just muzzle climb... when fired, it jumped up like a harsh muzzle climb, and then immediately back down again on its own. I was actually able to hit the target with it with pretty well. I just didn't like the way it flipped up and down on recoil. The movement felt kindof dangerous to me.
Other people there who fired this particular gun also noted this behavior. If it's not a general characteristic of the 92, then it may have been something going on with this particular one. Maybe there was something wrong with it.
It is strange because I know it's a popular gun. And the military accepted it as the M9. Maybe I was right to think the way this one felt seemed dangerous. Maybe it really was.
You know what... come to think of it... this particular gun was owned by the same guy who later modified a compound bow to pull past its rated poundage and bragged about it until it flew apart and screwed up his arm. Supposedly the 92 was brand new.. he'd just gotten it... but I wouldn't put it past him to have fucked with it.
That's a chilling thought, really. See, I didn't know about his modifying the bow and all that stuff until much later. I'm not sure if he would have been stupid enough to modify a fire arm though. Especially one he hadn't even fired yet.
Maybe I should try out a known good example of a 92 someday. See if it's anything like the 92 I fired before.
My own pistol, btw, is a 9mm Desert Eagle aka Jericho. It's an old one from before they rebranded them 'Baby Eagle'.
Other people there who fired this particular gun also noted this behavior. If it's not a general characteristic of the 92, then it may have been something going on with this particular one. Maybe there was something wrong with it.
It is strange because I know it's a popular gun. And the military accepted it as the M9. Maybe I was right to think the way this one felt seemed dangerous. Maybe it really was.
You know what... come to think of it... this particular gun was owned by the same guy who later modified a compound bow to pull past its rated poundage and bragged about it until it flew apart and screwed up his arm. Supposedly the 92 was brand new.. he'd just gotten it... but I wouldn't put it past him to have fucked with it.
That's a chilling thought, really. See, I didn't know about his modifying the bow and all that stuff until much later. I'm not sure if he would have been stupid enough to modify a fire arm though. Especially one he hadn't even fired yet.
Maybe I should try out a known good example of a 92 someday. See if it's anything like the 92 I fired before.
My own pistol, btw, is a 9mm Desert Eagle aka Jericho. It's an old one from before they rebranded them 'Baby Eagle'.
As someone who has had a Glock go 'ka-boom' in my hand due to trusting somebody else's handloads, yeah, I'd be very concerned about someone who modified firearms without mentioning it, particularly if they were mucking about with the recoil spring in some misguided attempt to create a 'softer shooting' gun...Or in really egregious stupidity, believing it could in any way affect the sear release/trigger pull.
I still have a hand because Glocks don't shatter like an alloy-framed firearm might have. The chamber overpressure completely cracked the rear of the barrel at the chamber, broke it -loose-, peeling up part of the slide in the process and still had enough energy left to -embed- the top of the chamber in the ceiling of the indoor range this occured at.
'Playing with fire' doesn't begin to describe the risks. There were some 92R/M9s which purportedly had L7A1 used in them and it either cracked the slide or sheared the slide-stop. Reportedly, this ended up with someone with a face full of slide. I'm not sure if this is true in the sense of 'M9 + L7A1' but similar things HAVE happened with other firearms and outrageous overstresses in the past.
Leep safe, draggy. And say 'hi' to the skunk for me.
I still have a hand because Glocks don't shatter like an alloy-framed firearm might have. The chamber overpressure completely cracked the rear of the barrel at the chamber, broke it -loose-, peeling up part of the slide in the process and still had enough energy left to -embed- the top of the chamber in the ceiling of the indoor range this occured at.
'Playing with fire' doesn't begin to describe the risks. There were some 92R/M9s which purportedly had L7A1 used in them and it either cracked the slide or sheared the slide-stop. Reportedly, this ended up with someone with a face full of slide. I'm not sure if this is true in the sense of 'M9 + L7A1' but similar things HAVE happened with other firearms and outrageous overstresses in the past.
Leep safe, draggy. And say 'hi' to the skunk for me.
Another problem I've heard of with the 93r is that for any maintenance other than basic cleaning, you'd need to turn it over to a specially-trained armorer to do the work. Machine pistols have always been a compromise between controllability and firepower, usually with firepower winning out over the ability to aim. This might be where the propensity for some gangers to turn a pistol on its' side came from- In China, where the C-96 'schnellfeuer' variant became popular, when firing full-auto they would turn the weapon sideways to produce a 'fan' of fire instead of shooting clouds.
Well most people should keep their gun repairs to basic maintenance and cleaning. Without the right tools and good working knowledge of the gun it is too easy to screw things up. When I was growing up our next door neighbor ran the local gun shop; one of his biggest sources of revenue was reassembling and repairing the results of many a dining-room table gunsmith.
It really wasn't the Mauser C96 that full-auto but the Mauser Model 712 and its Spanish competitor the Astra 903 that the Chinese used so much. Also it wasn't originally that the Chinese were so much in love with the broomhandle that caused to buy them in such quantities but instead it was to get around the import restrictions that Japanese imposed on rifles entering China in the early 20th century. The broomhandles with their stock/ holster were not considered rifles by the Japanese so weren't subject to the embargo.
The real irony was that company that handle the importing of most of the Mauser and Astra pistols was Japanese, and these weapons often got turned around and used against the very Japanese troops that the rifle embargo was suppose to protect! Proof that bureaucracy can be illogical in any country or time period.
It really wasn't the Mauser C96 that full-auto but the Mauser Model 712 and its Spanish competitor the Astra 903 that the Chinese used so much. Also it wasn't originally that the Chinese were so much in love with the broomhandle that caused to buy them in such quantities but instead it was to get around the import restrictions that Japanese imposed on rifles entering China in the early 20th century. The broomhandles with their stock/ holster were not considered rifles by the Japanese so weren't subject to the embargo.
The real irony was that company that handle the importing of most of the Mauser and Astra pistols was Japanese, and these weapons often got turned around and used against the very Japanese troops that the rifle embargo was suppose to protect! Proof that bureaucracy can be illogical in any country or time period.
Quite an interesting weapon, though I personally prefer the Glock 18 myself, since it doesn't immediately scream machine pistol when seen with a standard-sized magazine and can easily pass for a regular full-size Glock in semi-auto mode, the only exception being the selector switch at the rear of the slide. As for the pic, you did a good job depicting this weapon, would be interesting to see it colored if you're so inclined.
I have a curious Japanese airsoft replica of the 93 modified for Robocop. It has a heavily built up forgrip/cooling jacket, ramp sights, target shooter's grips, and a lenghtened magazine. Other than that, stock. I guess if you're a mechanical man, pre-programmed for correct use, its the weapon of choice.
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