While I'm against socialism, yes, I am pretty social. I'm a human being, no getting around that, and have to interact with other people. I will, most of the time, try and be as cheerful as outgoing as I can be when I should be. I've gotten a lot farther being friendly than I have being shy or rude.

Hey... I'm a member of a community invitational band, performed in three musicals, and have a lotta connections at school, and spend plen-ty of time here.

I'd like to see less of an obsession over this place as... well, as a place where one goes to talk to someone, and no one else.

People use places like this as a comfort zone which they never leave to gain life experiences... not everyone, though.

I see a good lot of healthy users here! Keep it up, doods and doodettes!

Simple short answer. Being furry and zoo both can lead to being an outcast but I have not had a big problem as I do not flaunt either in public. The people who get close enough to me to figure out furry are just "shrug" "so its like that that csi thing" "ehh sorof" and thats about it. As a population as a whole I come across as so boring, normal and mundane I am invisible and just kind of blend in.

Now I have seen a devide and one of the reasons I stopped going to cons is the second life thing among others. I feel my generation has grown up and moved on. The current generaton seems to revolve around second life. I know nothing about and have more trouble with my first life. I do not need a second one.

In the past I had been involved with rpgs and it was fun but I had a roomie who lived breathed ate and if he could slept furrymuck. That was his real life. He got the crack shakes one day when the phone line got disconnected.

I totally get what you are saying abut blending in. I'm so normal and everyday that nobody would ever suspect me liking furry. But what business is it of everybody else to know, anyway? It's not like I hear a lot of hate against your kind or my kind, so I see no need to "come out" and defend my personal interests and related hobbies.

I think it's okay if your friends who know you really really well and trust you to know about these things. Since they already know you aren't a freak, it's easy for them to take. I just don't see the need to shove it in people's faces. If we make furry a big deal, then it will be. If it's just a casual part of our lives like any other part of our lives, then no big deal will be had.

I find either aspect of my lifestyle. I do not hide it but I do not throw it in peoples faces that way people tend to be comfortable around me. If they figure it out I just shrug *think what you will* But then again the hostility is less because THEY figured it out *I* did not force it on them. That puts the ball in their court. In the outside world I am normal mundane boring human. I run my own business so I have to be professional, I have to dress well and I have to know how to talk.

On my offtime if you dont know me I am boring as I do not like to socialize with people much I do not club, go to parties unless work related, do the bar thing or god forbid date. Now if your one of the few people who get to step into my house it is fairly evident that I am furry and zoo. Again if you make it as far as to my house chances are you already know, suspect, I think you might ok with what you might see or your there to do a job and its irrelevant. and thus most people... well I have gotten complements on the artwork I had hanging up. The guy who put in the new air handler mentioned how sexy Red Shetland was and what a nice rack she had.

I think the way I have my house set up, you wouldn't ever think I was a furry unless you were a furry, too. All the clues are their, just no smoking gun.

Well you got to figure I live in the middle of nowhere so what few visitors I do have are friends anyway. Most guys like me in their late 20s have pin up girls around... I just prefer mine to have tails. Beyond that I have a laser printer that costs more than a good used car and access to a sign printer at a clients so if I see artwork I like (which is mostly anthro) I print it out at 10x14 or 36"x lifesize and frame it. But there again that is my house so I am entitled to have it the way I want.

Public is something else and I really think it comes down to how the individual views themselves. If you go at it as I am a furry and the world has to accept me... you aint gonna get much further than living in your parents basement. Me? Ok I am furry. Yeah maybe I am a horse in the wrong body. I got a spiritual connection. Whatever. *makes the universal sign of self gratification* Guess what? by all physical appearances I am human and I live in a human world. I am expected to act like a normal human when I am not specifically with other furs and I am out in the general public


And for my icon. I do not fully agree with McCain and his policy but out of the two I think he has the most experience and is the best choice for the role. There is just too much I dont know about Obama and what I do know I dont like.

BTW, I love your icon.

I'm witting in Bob Barr on my ballot just because I don't like McCain either. Neither one of these jokers know even a hill of beans about economics or the meaning of Liberty.

Right on! Barr is on the ballot here in Nevada, and our state constitution guarantees that we also have the choice of "None of the above."

General thoughts?

Furries are humans (yes, that includes you idiots who think you're actually the reborn soul of a dragon or whatever). If you can't socialize with other people, it's probably not because you're a furry, it's because you're a horrible human being.

Can it be healthy in any situation?

I think a little ostracizing is good in most situations; obviously, you're not going to fit in everywhere, and knowing your limits can teach you how to fit in better with the groups/places you already do fit in. But when you go out of your way to either become ostracized or cast out or actively keep other people at bay, then it becomes a problem both for you and for society in general.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?

I am one, baby.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?

I think it's because they want to see themselves as something other than a "lunatic fringe" group (no offense meant to anyone by the term) -- they want to be treated like they're special, and yet they aren't really all that special. They act like anyone bashing them because they jerk off to furry porn is the equivalent of a gay basher or some other such socially oppressive force, when in reality, the "oppressor" is probably bashing the person because they choose to thrust their kink/fetish/belief system into others' faces without regard as to social norms. I will admit I'm a furry to anyone who asks, but I'm not going to go around wearing a fursuit with a rainbow ribbon attached to the tail screaming "I'M A HUGE FUCKING FURFAG" in public.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?

Not that I can really think of.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?

I don't think so.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?

Most furries can start by realizing that being a furry (whether you just like furry art or go so far as to live a "furry lifestyle") is not the same thing as being a part of a socially oppressed group such as minorities, homosexuals, or transgendered persons. The quicker you stop acting like you're the victim of a worldwide conspiracy to KEEP FURRIES DOWN~! and start acting like a normal human being (which means not thrusting your furry fetish in people's faces every chance you get), the quicker you'll find out that most people don't really care what you do in the privacy of your own home as long as you don't act like a crazy person in public.

"Furries are humans (yes, that includes you idiots who think you're actually the reborn soul of a dragon or whatever). If you can't socialize with other people, it's probably not because you're a furry, it's because you're a horrible human being."

Picking on the otherkin, are we? I can't say I disagree with you, there. Otherkin is a phenomena well deserved of psychological scrutiny.

"Most furries can start by realizing that being a furry (whether you just like furry art or go so far as to live a "furry lifestyle") is not the same thing as being a part of a socially oppressed group such as minorities, homosexuals, or transgendered persons. The quicker you stop acting like you're the victim of a worldwide conspiracy to KEEP FURRIES DOWN~! and start acting like a normal human being (which means not thrusting your furry fetish in people's faces every chance you get), the quicker you'll find out that most people don't really care what you do in the privacy of your own home as long as you don't act like a crazy person in public."

I couldn't have said it better myself! To many furs act like they are the lepers of society. Yeah, of course people are going to think of it as weird, and they are entitled to but that's all and that's all they will do. I'm sure most people look at furry the same as people look at bondage, S&M, and men who really really like feet. All in all, furry is actually one of the more tame fetishes out their. It's not like water sports, poo, or extreme medical bondage, etc., although these things can get mixed in with furry.

I must admit, however, it is difficult for people to take furries seriously, especially when they dress up like cartoon characters. It just does't add up in a regular person's mind.

I don't think it'd be hard for people to take furries seriously if furries made a concentrated effort NOT to immediately out themselves as furry before saying anything else.

If you're entrenched in a conversation with someone else and casually bring up the fact you're a furry as part of the conversation, treating it like it's nothing important, then you'll likely be taken more seriously than someone who starts off a conversation with "So, did you see the pic of that superhung horseguy Miu drew for ClubStripes yet?"

If you want to be taken seriously, take yourself seriously -- if you don't want people shoving their kinks in your face, why do you think people would want yours shoved in theirs?

YES.

God damnit Freehaven

YES! This is just the freaking situation with me and my co-worker. He sits all night on his laptop looking at 4chan and shit and the like. He has a big breasted naked Vaporion as his psp skin. He always complains about another co-worker coming in early and how she WATCHES him watch some of the stuff he watches. (I can only hope it's cleaner then the stuff I know he watches when he's alone) And when he leaves, everyone laughs about all the stupid shit he looks at on his laptop, and are really glad that I'm not the same way.

One day I start laughing about some drama on wtf_FA; some chan worthy stuff I thought he might get a kick out of, and then I have to explain what FA is, and then it finally dons on him that I'm a furry. And he's like "Well, I'm a furry too." I just chuckled and shook my head and said "Dude... I know."

Furries have to start out as decent, intelligent human beings (or, atleast, form SOME kind of human connections. They don't have to be nice, upstanding citizens... but after school activities help) first before becoming furries, otherwise, they just spiral into this culture where they wear their insides on the outsides and think it's perfectly normal.

I think that this is a gross over generalization. I can only speak for myself, but I have not had any problem with social isolation. I have appeared on hundreds of TV shows, and have delivered over 100 lectures with extended Q&A sessions. I have been invited to far more parties than I cared to attend, and have many non-furry friends.

Furrys who are socially successful IRL are relatively unnoticed whereas those who are socially isolated are more noticeable because of their rarity - exceptions are more noteworthy than the commonplace. The commonplace is not news. Those with whom I do business always notice the furry art adorning my home and office, but I have never received a hostile comment about it.

I have noticed that a disproportionate percentage of my friends on FA have ADD, ADDH, or are somewhere on the autism spectrum, all of which have the potential for impeding social communication. Nevertheless, I have seen no evidence that the proportion of furrys with these conditions is even 10%. I suspect that furry socialization problems are more myth than fact.

I agree with your sentiment. I also have little to no problem socializing in "real life".

I want to add however, that I think furry, by it's accepting nature, draws people with socialization problems. I couldn't say what percentage of the fandom has them though.

I'd also say that because social stigma is played up, relatively normal individuals that happen to be furries feel the need to hide their interest in general company. I think that's where a large portion of the "social problem" lies. I have found over the years that if I hide my interest or seem at all ashamed, it's treated by "normal" people as something to be ashamed of, but if I'm upfront and unashamed, there's little to no stigma. Hell, my mom even knows about it (not my adult pieces). My non-furry friends know about my furry art, some have even seen my adult pieces.

It's fun, and for the most part, it shouldn't have to be hidden (as long as we keep our less normal fetishes to ourselves, which I think we should do in normal life anyway).

Most of the people who see my art in my home and office probably think "surrealism" rather than "furry." However, if I went around with a fox tail attached to my butt, I'm sure that I'd have problems...

I think the need to hind furry from the world comes from a highly strict and probably religious upbringing. In such households, children are taught not to acknowledge and regulate such urges, but to suppress and hide them in dark places where they fester to later reemerge in some horribly perverted form. Many Christian denominations (but not all) use false guilt and shame in order control the conduct and thought life of people. If you grow up in a house like that, of course you are going to hide furry, because any outward sexual expression of any sort is shamed. It's a despicable form of social programing and brain washing that causes [religious?] furries to bitterly suffer unnecessarily.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qHB5cQ5QWRw

I think we are probably more afraid of being thought of as "Comic Book Store Guy", then anything else.

"Worst, characterization, ever."

X3 had to.

You still completely fascinate me foxy...

seriously, I have to meet you at some point. Talk with you in person and pick out all the little gems of knowledge from your brain. :P

I'd love to meet you, too. We could soak in my central Nevada private hot springs and watch the wild horses come up to drink while we discuss whatever interests you. Hot springs are wonderful during the winter, too. On very cold days, the steam freezes on my hair to form an ice helm, and sundogs and icebows (the Bifrost Bridge) turn the sky into a scene from an Icelandic saga. You don't have to die to go to Valhalla, but a good 4x4 helps.

The problem I mostly deal with is that the people I know don't have a clue with furry is. You tell them and they are weirded out by it every time.

yeah ive even had my freind talk about it not knowing im one and say bad things about it..O.< i wanted to freak out and be like ok for you you dont know shit so shut up..lol but yeah .. i like having friends..lol

How people treat it is usually dependent on how you present the information. Tell them about it as a whole, then what you like about it, and if they ask, answer honestly about the less normal fetishes. I'm totally "out" about being a furry, and no one seems to shun me for it.

well i know i for one am alot more shy irl then i am online...

well somewhat anyways.. i will tend to talk to just about anyone irl and make an ass of myself..
but theres just alot more things that i can talk about and do when online then irl..

like im a sexual mess irl sooo shy when it comes to that lol

im really not sure whay that is..o.o its not like i really fear what anyone has to think of me..
i just dont like to talk to people irl.. id rather talk to furrys online..

Believe it or not, I'm actually more shy online then I am in real life. I've met far more weirdos and lunatics on the internet then I ever have in real life. Real life is a hell of a lot safer.

lol yeah i guess... but im not stupid with it ... lol i dont like hand out where i live to everyone :P people scare me more irl then they do over the computer..o.o lol

"Real life is a hell of a lot safer." That depends on where you live...

That's true. Their are many places I refuse to go and many groups I refuse to associate with. In fact, I will drive a little farther from my house just to go to the "nice" Wal-Mart that doesn't have any of the riffraff.

I rarely go to bars unless they have an outside area away from the smoke, I find strip clubs a waste of time, and church people are deluded sticks in the mud. I think its a much more rewarding experience to make friends with as many people at work as possible. I work in a place that has lots and lots of employees, so their are plenty of people to make friends with. It's one of the many blessings I enjoy at my job. I know that if I keep it up, sooner or later, I'll find somebody wonderful to have in my life.

But now that I mention it, compatibility in a relation ship were one has a furry fetish and the other does not could be an issue. I think it's safer to say, though, that if you are with somebody who truly loves you, they will be willing to tolerate it and perhaps even embrace it, but all things in moderation (especially moderation).

I've only ever dated one furry, and they only became a furry after we became a couple. Not one person I've dated has ever had a problem with it. Though, a lot of that is because it never really got between us. I'm not really sure how it would become an issue. Besides looking at pornographic art, there's not a lot "furry" you can do with sex in the first place.

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Intentionally isolating yourself from the rest of society? Not particularly, I would think.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?
Um... Myself, I suppose. I'm kinda different from most folks in real life and thus don't usually hit it off too well. At least not right away.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
I'd say the majority aren't, really. But as for those who do ostracize themselves from mainstream society? Well, I think a lot of folks kinda get used to pointless furry hate on the internet, and make the mistake of assuming that most non-furs offline are like that too. Then it just evolves into this big secret you have to hide from everyone and so on.
I've yet to meet anyone in real life who actually will hate you just for being furry, though. The most common reactions are either "That's kinda weird, but whatever" or "...Huh?"

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
Not that I've seen. Yet.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
Uh, I don't think so. I think it's where you're *not* active that matters more here.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
Primarily by realizing that 99.9% of people won't freak out or even give much of a fuck if you're a furry. Unless you treat it like some terrible secret or just shove all your more twisted furry fetishes in their face all the time, in which case you're pretty much asking for bad results.

Why should a furry get involved in a "society" which shows one species as gods, but snobs all those species which helped the "gods" leave the caves and jungles? We reject this, not the other way around!

It sounds like you're mixing furry (a fandom) with other philosophies. It sounds more like a PETA rant than anything to do with anthropomorphic animals.

The term "fandom" does not describe us correctly. We are a community; fandoms are about entertainers (usually) and those who are crazy about them without a significant reason... characteristic examples are school girls who scream with celebrities and football fanatics! Similar sutiatuions sadly happen in our community (which appears as a fandom), but are not encouraged or supported by us. We only end up getting the blame when we complain about such immaturities...

There's no philosophy in showing gratitude to animals. Animals show gratitude when they are treated well. Since the "great humanity" (the great insanity really) still insists to treat them as items, the ones who relate to them (i.e. furries) can at least assist the situation.

Animal activists and lovers can not think as animals do, so they can not give to animals what they really need. I don't trust them myself. Whether you believe it or not, furries are able to think as animals do! I don't believe it either; it's internal, and I can't think of a single one of my contacts who lacks this!

So, furries are not social rejects of the ]animal society. Or "kingdom" if you want.

Of course, not enjoying this is not worth it. But playing acts is not the way.

You want to know about furries from a furry? Check this:

http://www.genecatlow.com

Click on "first" and read it from there. There are many strips, but everything about furries is unfolded there. The current situation, references to the past, anticipation about the future, the connection between furries and animals... all the facts!

Okay, yeah, people like you? You're the reason people think furries are insane.

Nobody was talking about "animal society" here. When we talk about "society" here, we're talking about -- SHOCK -- human society. And guess what? You're a human, too. And you wanna know why you're probably not taken seriously by others? Because you spout off things like the post I'm replying to -- HUMANS ONLY TREAT ANIMALS LIKE ITEMS UNLESS THEY'RE FURRIES OR ACTIVISTS -- within conversations that have absolutely nothing to do with that particular topic.

You need to learn that some people aren't going to take kindly to having your beliefs and your ideas thrust into their faces during a conversation, even if the conversation is seemingly headed that way. Even if the topic of "animal rights" or whatever comes up in conversation, do you honestly think you'll be taken seriously after you say that furries are the only people in the world who can "think as animals do"? Because if you do, you seriously have more issues than the entire run of National Geographic Magazine.

Learn to gauge conversations. Learn to figure out where a conversation is likely headed. But most of all, learn how not to volunteer information about yourself that will paint you in a bad light (or, in the same vein, how not to push your beliefs and ideas on people who don't want to hear it).

The biggest fandoms around are anime and scifi/fantasy. These are not based around entertainers, but general subject matter. Like anthropomorphics.

You're obviously an otherkin or a lifestyler or whatever label your particular form of spiritual furry takes for itself. This is not the definition of furry, though. It only defines your particular little branch. It's like when fundamentalists claim other Christians aren't really Christians. You're just trying to privilege your own ideas.

You don't seem to understand what philosophy means. You're prescribing to a particular mode of thought that is in disagreement with common modes of thought. If it's not a philosophy to build your entire perception of the world and behaviors around this idea, then it's a delusion.

The original basis of the fandom came from cartoons and comics, themselves inspired by a long tradition of art and storytelling. Not from people with the magical ability to think like an animal. Which you can't. Go read some Nagel. http://www.clarku.edu/students/phil.....docs/nagel.pdf

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Sometimes it's better to be quiet than brash. So… yes, maybe? I think this is more or less fruitless question.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?
I can't think of any instances that aren't at the root of a lack of self confidence.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
I don't know how you're defining furries. Fursuiters? People that draw anthro? People that think anthropomorphic animals are sexy? There's no way you could generalize within any of these categories to find an appropriate answer.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
I don't understand.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
No, we're ostracizing ourselves if that's all we do. I don't think there's all that much room for discussion, here.
Does a nun ostracize herself if she lives in a cloister? Yes, if that's all she does.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
If you're too shy to talk, be polite and compassionate. This will bring genuinely nice and social people to talk to you.
If you're not that shy, be that nice person that reaches out to others.

Since all of your examples of groups we can't generalize as furries fit under common definitions of furry, and have fit under the definitions used for furries for over a decade, and all actively engage in the furry community... the answer is yes. They're all what's meant here by "furry".

Thanks for your response.

I still wouldn't know where to begin with answering the original question, even within my summaries.

Why furry 'culture' seem to actively fight normal tenets of socialization, endeavoring instead to continue ostracizing itself from mainstream society

General thoughts?
First of all...what is normal and who decides it? "Normal" is merely the "mean" of every measurable social parameter. In order to establish that norm, there have to be people on either side of it. Most of the population, as a matter of fact. So in a very real sense, it's normal to not be normal.

Are furries ostracising themselves, or are they being ostracised? I think it's too complicated a matter to be reduced to "either/or". If society as a whole was more open and accepting, people on either side of the "social norm" would have no need to ostracise themselves. This applies to every fringe group, not just furries.

What complicates this even more is that we as furries have our own set of prejudices. Up there I saw people picking on Otherkin. You also have gays picking on gay priders. What does that tell you? Social norms within the fandom is just as diverse as outside of it. What it comes down to is what each individual thinks is normal, and whether there's a group out there that he can belong to. We as humans are social beings. We require a "herd" to move within. If society as a whole does not accept your norms, and the only availible outlet for it is online...then naturally people are going to spend more time there. If I had more furs in my immediate area to spend time with, I might just spend less of my availible time offline. I have no problems interacting with "normal" people. I just fnd that I have little in common with them. That is not necessarily related to my furryness either. My interests are diverse, and and finding people with that same set of interests are difficult. That is why I'm a member of so many different subcultures.

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Yes, it can be. Interacting with others with similar interests are almost never a bad thing. It will either cure you on that interest, or solidify it. Also...a lot of people who simply do not have the social skills to operate outside their fandom are then neatly kept away from other people. That is hardly a bad thing. Is it healthy for the individual to cut themselves off from society totally? I don't really think that's possible. Even junkies have to interact with society in some way to support their habit.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?
No. In my personal case, coming online and interacting with "others like me" have given me a boost not only in self-confidence, but also in self-image. I'm far more likely now to interact socially IRL than I was before finding the fandom. It still takes me a while to warm to people, but at least now I WILL join the party, as it were.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
I honestly don't know. Most of the furries I know are very brash and outgoing IRL. Others are painfully shy, like me. I don't personally know of any fur that focusses on their "furry lives" so much that they have no other life.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
Yes. In cases of isolation.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
Yes and no. True, we are often here and elsewhere when we COULD have RL interaction...but seriously...if RL des not cater for that side of yourself, why not let it out online? It would be far more unhealthy notto express it in some form than it would be to spend a bit of time away from "normal society". It's none of the business of others whether we do or not.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
*shrugs* Switch off the computer and go out to live a "normal life". Do I hear a few loud cheers at that thought? No? I didn't think so.

"What it comes down to is what each individual thinks is normal, and whether there's a group out there that he can belong to. We as humans are social beings. We require a "herd" to move within."

Very well put. I've noticed this in every subculture. there is always going to be subtle disagreements between those within. It happens in the church, it happens in government. We see break-offs within the concept of anthropomorphics most commonly grouped into sexual preferences however. Rarely the breaks will even split between spiritual beliefs.

Its a fascinating study to say the least. In accordance with the; "What may be wrong to you may be right for some." ideal.

The fandom is just composed of lots of socially awkward people - lots of folks with SAD, some with aspergers, and ( I think one study has shown) most are introverted. Thus, for many, internet communications are less stressful on a day to day basis. It might do someone, with SAD for instance, some good to attempt to be more social and go to big parties and things, but said party might also give the person a panic attack, so just telling someone to immediately STOP BEING SO ANTISOCIAL might not work so well...

Regardless, though, it's always best to get out there in the world. The furries I've known who have less social anxiety (or who are comfortable despite such anxieties) tend to be older, more well-rounded people who have learned to live out in the world. We are talking about a ton of kids in the fandom, after all..

I agree with that, there are "a lot" of teenagers in the fandom.

General thoughts?

I thought a bit before answering this one.

Can it be healthy in any situation?

Ostracization is never healthy. Its a direct cause of unnecessary stress. Being separated from the majority causes self doubt, anxiety, and an inability to cope.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?

Yes actually. My room mate is a prime example. His life is lived on his computer. As a result, even though he doesn't mean it, he comes off as a sex crazed asshole to most people that try to get to know him IRL.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?

A: I don't believe its a fair assumption to say the majority is. B: However the cause could possibly be ostricization at a younger age for completely irrelevant reasons passed on into adulthood.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?

Yes actually, children picked on or excluded from group activities have shown to be less able to cope properly to social situations later in life.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?

Second life; yes. FA; no. There is a large difference between an art community and a glorified chat service. World of Warcraft, oblivion, and Everquest are much more proper to put in question for this subject matter.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?

Well to be quite blunt and too the point; "Get off the damn computer/game every once in a while and hang out with your friends". If you don't have any local friends then you've clearly spent way too much time on it already.

Here are the results of a survey of over 6,000 furries:
http://www.klisoura.com/ot_furrysurvey.php

Download the extended results PDF; it is forty pages of furry fascination:
http://www.klisoura.com/sfnote.php

You can be surveyed here:
http://www.klisoura.com/furrypoll.php

More furry data here:
http://www.furcenter.org/

I find it quite compelling that the majority of this dialogue has focused on individuals defending themselves from the presupposition that "furries are antisocial."

I think that most of us are going to understand that this question does not by any meanns refer to all of us, but you're lying to yourself and practicing a little bit of unwarranted self-importance if you don't recognize that there are quite a lot of weirdos among us.

Any fur who has ever been bold/lonely/stupid/unfortunate enough to spend a lot of time with the local scene in an irl setting would be hard pressed to honestly say "yeah, I liked every last one of them!" I personally only know the Colorado scene, but I've spoken with enough furs from around the world through the curse of the interwebz to understand that it's an epidemic.

I also see a lot of "Well, those people who are weird... they should just.. y'know.. stop, and it would be okay!"

Think before you speak, people.

It doesn't matter where you are, or where you've been. There has been that "weirdo" in your life. Whether it's school, church, work, or one of your vast social networks, there have -always- been those people who send off "weird vibes" that everybody stays away from and talks about in concerned whispers. That's not a coincidence.

I'm dissapointed to see such a lack of awareness of personality disorders that, for the sake of his argument, I'll call "social disorders". Falling on the autistic spectrum, Aspergers typically manifests with obsessive personalities. That means that when a person finds something that interests them... They latch onto it for dear life, and become obsessed.

Granted, that isn't everybody in this god-forsaken community, but have some respect. It isn't as easy for everybody as it is for you.

Whoops! Please see below.

Good points. I have asked Klisoura of furry survey/poll to ask about autism, Asperger's, ADD, and ADDH in future versions of his fascinating furry survey and he liked the idea and said that he would do so. High performing Aspers are less than 0.1% of the population according to US Centers for Disease Control, but the number of high performing Aspers that I know on FA (including yours truly) strongly suggests that their incidence on FA is far above that of the general population. In a very real sense, we are born furry.

Temple Grandin, a very successful and insightful animal behavior scientist who is a high performing autistic, has said that those on the Autism spectrum think more like animals. I agree. More here:
http://www.amazon.com/Animals-Trans.....dp/0156031442/
http://www.amazon.com/Thinking-Pict.....dp/0307275655/
http://www.amazon.com/Way-See-Perso.....dp/1932565728/

i also see a very high percentage of aspergers in both the furry community and the otaku community (which i am also quite active in. i know 5 people at least who have this disorder in those two groups i hang out with, which is an extremely high rate. my room mate, who has aspergers, is extremely active in the star wars cummunity (her obsession) and tells me that most of the people she talks to on their forums and at their cons seem to be either on the autistic spectrum or very very close. she's a phych major and actually plans on doing research into the extremely high rates of add, aspergers, rds, and sensory disorders found in "nerd" communitys.
note: she comes from a long line of furrys. not that they call themselves that, but her dad truly beleives that inside he is a lioness. her gradfather was also a feline according to her dad. this also leads me to beleive that there is a biological basis for being a fur.

Thank you very much for that information! The odds of that Asper frequency occurring by random chance in a group are exceedingly minute. Please contact the furry survey and tell Klisoura that. I'm sure that he will find that quite interesting. Here he is:
http://www.furcenter.org/

There are definitely genetic and biological bases for Asperger's and the rest of the autistic spectrum; I agree that some furrys (like me) are biologically predisposed to being furry.

Sensory "disorders" - oh, yes! I was the only person in my holographic laboratory who could see well with 649.3 nm ultra deep red ruby laser light. The other scientists, engineers, technicians, and managers didn't believe what I reported seeing until I set up an infrared sensitive silicon diode target vidicon HDTV system so that they could see it, too. I can also see well into the UV and discriminate 36,000,000 colors. I hear ultrasonic burglar alarms and silent dog whistles and can hear infrasonics as a tone down to about 8 hertz. And I absolutely cannot abide by scratchy clothes labels or flashing FA adds! (I get rid of the latter with the FurAffinity-Optimized stylesheet for FireFox 2).

Wow, I thought I was the only one. For the longest time, I just thought I was crazy. I can walk into a room and know immediately if a TV or radio is on, even if it's not making noise. I can hear/feel something within the electronics going. It's not really a sound, but it's not really a feeling either. Some strange combination of both, I guess. I can feel vibrations as well. Made a fair few people wonder if I was psychic or something when I could feel someone approaching and could tell if it was a friend or the pizza guy. And no one could understand why I simply couldn't stand the sound of someone's bass thumping, even if it was from a distance.

Can't say much about my vision. I'm pretty nearsighted. But I can see movement better than most people. I just never put it to the test.

And I can taste if something was stored in plastic, even if it was only for a little while. I can't eat a sandwich that was in a plastic baggie. Kind of annoying.

I had just written this off as me being sensitive or crazy. It's called a sensory disorder?

~GR

Doctors who can't do this call it a sensory disorder. I call it extended sensory perception. You can probably hear into what would normally be ultrasonics and hear and feel into what would normally be infrasonics, too. I can't stand thumping bass, either, even a mile away. This extended sensitivity is quite common for those on the autistic spectrum, such as Aspers like me.

Here is the official DSM-IV diagnostic questionnaire for both autism and Asperger's; just answer the questions yes or no, write it down, and count them up according to the instructions:
http://www.cdc.gov/ncbddd/autism/ov.....c_criteria.htm

We aren't crazy, but we are different. It is easy to imagine how extended sensory perception (including a very acute sense of smell and taste) could be a real lifesaver 20,000 years ago. "Watch out! There is a saber tooth tiger out there - I can smell him!" "The mammoths are about a mile that way - I can hear and feel their rumbling.)

Makes sense. *sigh of relief* That's...really neat. ^_^ *gives you a slight bow* Thank you. I still don't know what I am, but this really helps.

~GR

Glad to help. Use the link that I provided, answer the questions, and score them according to the instructions; whatever the outcome, it will help you to find out more about who you are. Don't hesitate out of fear that the diagnosis might be positive: about half the Nobel Prize winning mathematicians are Aspers, as are most chess Grandmasters. I have been very successful as a scientist because I am an Asper, not in spite of it.

Also: Wtf is with this word "Mundane"

people who use this word to describe non-furries should be shot.

This is why I prefer the term "vanilla." The BDSM community uses it. It doesn't come off as negative, and it has less baggage attached to it than "normal." And you don't fall into the trap of labeling the world either "furry" or "non-furry."

~GR

i personally find "vanilla" to be just as pretentious, though admittedly without the rage that "mundane" induces for me. i'd rather have someone label me as "vanilla" than "mundane," sure, but - just because someone isn't into BDSM doesn't mean they prefer plain ol' boring un-flavoured sex, so to speak. yeah, that guy might not be interested in BDSM, but maybe he likes to put on antlers and have his boyfriend dress up as Santa Claus, or that single co-worker of yours might be single because she prefers her dog.
i guess, mostly, i just don't see why it always has to be one or the other; why can't they just be "unknown" or "not me" or at least "not one of us?" non-furries, non-BDSM enthusiasts, non-truckers, etc.

Vanilla isn't un-flavored. It's just very commonplace. ^_^ That, and the idea of a non-anything seems very...exclusive. It's almost more insulting than mundane. Vanilla just makes it sounds like you're another flavor of person. A fairly common one, to be sure, but certainly not disliked. Let's face it, it's one of the most popular flavors out there.

And there's nothing wrong with putting a few sprinkles on your vanilla from time to time. ;)

Hmm, I don't have anything resembling an answer to this one. I can only give my justification for what I do. I certainly can't speak for the fandom at large.

I tend to fall out of the mainstream simply because I hold views in many things that just don't mesh well. I believe that the current society is set up to take advantage of and abuse its people, animals, and resources. It devalues life and turns it into a bottom line. From the get-go, I'm not on par with what is known as the mainstream.

I find that the people I meet in the fringe fandoms, such as the furry and the anime, tend to be more open-minded and willing to engage in a dialogue about their differences. And truly, I'd rather have a dialogue about it than a full-blown argument about who is right and wrong. And far too often, those mainstream people would rather tell me I'm flat wrong than try to understand anything about me or the fandom in question.

I don't know that there is a way to stop the process of being ostracized. Forgive me for being so pessimistic, but I really wonder if it's human nature to shun what isn't what the supposed majority consider "normal." I'd very much like to believe otherwise, but it just seems that the more I try to understand where the so-called normal people are coming from, the more baffled and disheartened I become.

~GR

"...but I really wonder if it's human nature to shun what isn't what the supposed majority consider "normal."" It's not just human nature - it is far more ancient. Dye a monkey green, and it will receive hell from those with whom it had previously been an accepted member of their tribe.

However:
If you are poor, you are crazy.
If you are middle class, you are eccentric.
If you are rich, you are highly individualistic and a pillar of your community - even if you are known to be a surrealistic anthro artist...

*facepalm* And now I can't get the image of a green monkey out of my head. A green monkey sitting on top of a melted clock.

~GR

"Forgive me for being so pessimistic, but I really wonder if it's human nature to shun what isn't what the supposed majority consider "normal." "

Yup! But not everyone has that firmware turned on. Aspers like me, for example, though there many others.

Why furry 'culture' seem to actively fight normal tenets of socialization, endeavoring instead to continue ostracizing itself from mainstream society

This is something I have been thinking about for a long time. My piece will not just be about socializing only on the internet, but furries who see themselves as completely different from mainstream society.

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Absolutely not. I'm sorry, but delving too far into any fantasy world is not healthy. I know many furries who are way too into this and it is more than a hobby to them, and even more than a lifestyle, but it is their entire existence. Because of this, they have a very hard time interacting with other people. I've never seen anything good come out of someone who is "too furry." Furry is NOT real. It's pretend. People need to realize that. There is a time when you can turn on the fun and pretend you're a raccoon or whatever, but the next morning, turn it off and go to work and be a productive human being like the rest of us. If a person does not have the ability to do that, I personally see them as mentally ill.

I'm all for imagination and fun and games. I'm an artist and a writer. However, I know when to be furry and when not to be furry. I know how to be successful in this world and I know that I also need play time to relax. There is a season for furry and a season for being human. Turn, turn, turn.

Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?
I have known furries who have absolutely no idea how to interact with people in public because they do not like humans. Sorry dear, go look in the mirror. I have seen furries talk to people in public about furry and then get upset when they're looked at like a total freak. The only people these furries can interact with are other furries, and in general, they drive those furries batshit insane, as well.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
No, I do not believe the majority of furries are guilty of this. I rarely see furries who are too involved. In my experience, most furries are able to turn it off and go be productive, and jump back into character when they get home... IF they want to.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
I do not think so. I think it depends on the furry in question.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
Again, I think it depends on the furry. FA and SL can be used in moderation, the furry just has to have the ability to shut off the computer every once in awhile and go hang out with friends or go outside and take a nice walk. Whatever. It is up to the user, not the website. :)

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
You can't. I do not see furry as a general community ostracizing itself, but members ostracizing themselves individually from the rest of the world. It just depends on who you are and how confident you feel about yourself. I think many of the furs who are too involved ostracize themselves because they are accepted, no matter what, in furry, and so they stay where they feel safe.

I think everything is fine in moderation. This is coming from someone who is a true introvert. 95% of my time must be spent in isolation... that is including the internet. Isolation to me is no contact whatsoever. Even *I* understand that it is important to get outside and go walk around after awhile. Even if you don't want to talk to someone, just go be amongst fellow human beings for awhile. Go to a park and watch kids play or something. You can be alone and be around others at the same time. It's good to get out in that sunshine.

However, it is important to have good social skills and understand basic human interaction if you are wanting to go anywhere and succeed in this world.

General thoughts?
Aren't we socialising with each other?

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Yes, if when you try to be yourself outside the fandom you get mocked and teased for it and you find a entire mini-society of others then why not flee the norm.

Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
We are brought up to think a certain way, to know that certain things are not normal and whoever tries to break that pattern of thinking is weird. Is it any wonder that most of us dont want to take the full force of that judgement, that is the reason that most furries ostracize themselves from society.

Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
Yes, in average furries seem to hide it more at school or work.

Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
No, we are conecting to a greater network of people than we may have met offline.

How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
Why? The people dont want us yet but someday they will see our numbers and understand that there is no way to force us to be normal and therefore will have to accept us. Until that day we just keep creating furry artwork, music, stories and poems for each other.

Can it be healthy in any situation?
Sometimes being ostracized can be a good thing. If you stand up against any sort of peer pressure you run the risk of being shunned, but that's better than getting pulled into a situation you don't want to be in.
Do you know of any instances where one's ability to interact with others in society outside of the internet is inhibited?
I am a prime example. I spend several hours a day online at home, and when I go out I always have my Blackberry out checking forums or IMing with other furs. I've even been guilty of making excuses to leave hang out sessions with friends to go home and sit in front of my computer and chat or IM with furries or write my stories in peace. I also flipped my sleep schedule around backwards so I was pretty much nocturnal.
Do you think the majority of furries are guilty of this? If so, what do you believe is the fundamental cause?
Some, but not all. I myself feel that I isolate myself to my computer because I feel suffocated by the small, unforgiving, (dare I say it?) redneck town I live in. I'm pretty sure I'm the only furry in a 50km radius. I don't get a lot of support on my furriness from the friends I have here, or my boyfriend for that matter, so I spend a lot of time holed up in front of my terminal because the internet is the only place I know of that provides me with like-minded people to talk to.
Are there specific occasions where there is a tendency to do this more often?
If I know my boyfriend is going to be away for a bit I tend to binge on the dirtier furry sites. I suppose most other furries that have to hide (either fully or partially) their participation in the fandom or aspects of it, will go a little overboard when the get an elongated stretch of time with which to play.
Are we ostracizing ourselves by engaging in online communities such as FA or Second Life?
If there's a link to your FA art page on your FaceBook or any other place that can be seen by everyone on the web, you might be. If it can be seen by everyone then it can be judged by everyone. As for MUCKing, MUDDing and MMORPGs, I know a lot of people that have fallen to a social rock-bottom. A friend of mine began playing a game called Perfect World a while back... For 3 months the only time I ever saw him was via webcam. Finally I went to his house and with a great deal of effort, make him go for a bike ride with me.
How can we break away from ostracizing ourselves?
We can realize when it's time to turn the computer off. We can better get to know ourselves IRL so that we don't have to define ourselves by our online personalities... and the most important thing for me is to get out for a walk, even if it's just a couple blocks down to Tim Horton's, because I know I will see at least 2 people I know there (I told you it's a small town) and more importantly, I get my fresh air and sunshine.

fursecution is real :'''(