sad sad sad sad...... and all too true...

V.

Yeah, when I first heard of the "culling", I growled and wanted to go through the tv-screen and rip the throats out of the creeps in the helicopters... What really makes me roar is there are supposedly people who actually pay for the privilage of shooting the wolves! It's mostly done by the rangers, though, I believe. It was a news story I'd seen some time ago, so I have no idea if the practice has been stopped at all.

Sad. Horrid. Touching. Now, as I live in a country where there are strict hunting regulations and they are respected for the most part, or so I have grown to believe, I have to ask: Does this happen in reality on the west side of Atlantic? Because, that's just... insane. It's not hunting, or even sport-hunting, chasing a pack of wolves with a helicopter and shooting the animals down. That's just... massacre. Thoughfull, nature-respecting, traditional hunting is not a bad thing, in Finland it's a must to hunt elk and deer, as human has driven all the great carnivores to the east and north, after a year or two we would be swimming in elk, if their amount isn't reduced. But all is done under regulations, hunting outside of hunting season is prohibited and the amount of permissions to fall an elk or a deer are counted carefully each year.

Okay, the shock is over. Very good story, it's very well written and it made me to wonder: Are there limits to the stupidity of the human being? Good work.

Sad to say, it was actually legal in Alaska to hunt animals from helicopters, at least, in the '80's and '90's... I don't know if the law has been changed or if the practice banned, yet. I sincerly hope it has. The wolves were seen as a threat to the caribou herds that the Aliut and Inuit (local Native Tribes) lived on, and the sport-hunters managed to get some supposed "experts" to agree that culling the wolf population was a good idea... The World Wildlife Fund has been protesting this for years, now.

In most parts of the States and definately in Canada (where I'm from) it's illegal to hunt out of season, the licenses are expensive and the hunter is allowed a very small limit for his catch. If a person is hunting for food, I don't have a problem with it- grocery stores are kind of rare in the far North. If they're hunting to gain a trophy (the rack of antlers, say) and only happen to take the meat as a side benefit, I find it disgusting.

Sport-hunting, in all it's forms, even the supposedly "nature-respecting" sort (which I don't believe for a second, sorry), should be banned. If we were to leave the animal populations strictly alone, the balance can reassert itself. If the number of predators is still too low, find out why. If it was disease, then maybe we can help, there. If it's just that we've killed too many of the animals, then stop the killings. If the herbivore population grows too large, they will eventually starve (as they have in other famine years before humans started futzing with the balance) and the strongest that have survived will live to breed tougher members. It sounds harsh, but we've made far too many mistakes in this area for me to believe that even with the best intentions that we won't just fuck things up even worse.

No, I don't believe there are any limits to our stupidity, sadly. We may slowly learn more about how nature works, but there is always more to learn. if only we could learn not to be so arrogant in our supposed knowledge and how we apply it, then maybe we wouldn't have so many extinctions occurring all over this planet.

OK, rant over.

And thank you for your comments, too. Even though the tale was so grim and anger-provoking, I'm glad you found it a good one.

Cheers!

There's always problems when the nature and the human society collide. There's always those who say: Leave the nature alone, it can heals itself. Okay, I can't really disagree, it can do that. Then there's always those who say: Kill all the wolves, them eat our livestock and kill all the elks, them cause far too much traffic accidents. Okay, that's a bit harsh, but I can see the point. It is easy to say the nature should be preserved if you live in a city. If you live in the countryside, where the wolves really eat all cats and dogs and sheeps from the yard, I can understand you will go pro hunting.

The discussion about hunting in Finland pretty much circulates around those statements above. I don't know if the current hunting policy in Finland is the best, but at least it is not the worst. The situation here is far better than in Alaska in the eighties or nineties. The population of wolf, bear, lynx and wolverine has been steadily growing and the population of elk and deer has been pretty much the same, I think, with a steady fluctuation. That's the view in my country.

"OK, rant over."

What rant? You just introduced your ideas and opinions and even facts, if that was a rant, it was a good rant, you made many good points and I learnt how the situation is on your side of Atlantic. Can't really disagree with you, you explain your points quite well. Only thing I want to disagree, and I note, this is only a point of believe and culture, is that there can be nature-respecting hunting. The Finns have been hunting in these woods for thousands of years, hunting is in our blood, it is part of our culture. In our national epic, Kalevala, there are many poems describing hunting. Hunting of the elk of Hiisi, hunting of the swan of Tuonela, for example. Well, killing a swan would get you to prison, nowadays, but I made my point. Hunting is just one part of the concept "eränkäynti", which translates roughly as "going to the wilderness" or maybe "living in the wilderness". But, I state, this is only my own view and it is powered by my own believes and the Finnish culture.

Thank you, you're welcome and everything good. You should be proud for yourself for writing such a discussion-inducing story, even if you are the one fueling the discussion. But, I think all relatively peacefull and respecting discussion is good. It was very interesting to read your view and I hope you will find my view interesting.

Hmm, I'm going to have to dispute those folks- an average wolf-pack consists of about five to ten members, total (not including cubs, who often don't live past their first year). They'll kill one elk roughly every three to four months, if they're lucky (and gorge on it for the next week, then probably fast for up to another week). That's an average of four elk a year. Unless the wolf-population is grossly underestimated, it's highly unlikely they're killing the elk. Humans are more likely the cause, there- simple overhunting, disease, or shrinking habitat. Wolves may be predators, they may be organized predators, but they don't always catch their prey. Mostly, they subsist on smaller animals, such as ground-squirrels, rabbits, ptarmigen and other ground-dwelling creatures.

To say that they are "killing all the elk" is not only incorrect, but impossible using their hunting methods. The arguments of the pro-hunting farmers and ranchers is the same here, and just as incorrect. Sorry.

See, wolves tend to avoid any place that has a strong human odour about it, and a farm where animals are kept is likely too frightening a place for them to try hunting in- unless they were starving. If wolves are coming into human-populated areas, then their own forests and hunting-grounds are no longer teneble; they're not getting enough to eat, there. So look at where they usually hunt- what's going on in their usual home?

Since I highly doubt that wolves, a threatened and/or endangered species over all of the world, have expanded beyond their range, the problem must lie in their food supply or available territory. Are there enough of the smaller prey animals? Have we encroached too far into their traditional range? When the smaller creatures are undergoing a famine, or disease outbreak, their population will fall, the wolves go hungry, and yes, they might start hunting nearer to human habitations. Cats and dogs are small enough for them to easily hunt (and are often unafraid, or belligerant- easy pickings for a hungry wolf)- wolves are essentially lazy. Why make the effort for a large elk or moose, when they can pick up a bunny for less strain?

Wolves don't often go for the larger beasts, except as a pack and when the opportunity presents itself- wolves are opportunistic predators in the sense that a weakened, or older deer is an easier target than a healthy rabbit. But rabbits are easier to find (there are more of them, after all), as are rodents and some ground-nesting birds.

If sheep, deer, and caribou that humans are raising are ending up on a wolf-pack's menu, it means something's wrong in their regular hunting grounds. Killing the wolves won't do anything but push them further toward extinction.

I actually read this somewhere (probably the Whole Earth books)- it's kind of funny, but it supposedly works; pee around the boundries of your farm, if you're a meat-eater (or have your dogs do it- they'll do it automatically, anyway)- a wolf will smell that and probably stay away, as will a number of other pests, like the wild rabbits or deer that like to raid gardens. Wolves are very territorial, and the scent left by urine is one of their ways to let others know where their territory begins and ends. The only thing is, you must be a meat-eater for this to work and you must renew the markers every couple of days, and always in the same places. A marker older than a week will likely be peed over by the encroaching wolf as a challenge, and unless you make sure to piss over it yourself as soon as possible, the wolf-pack may believe the territory untenented and move in. It's not 100% successful, but it might help.

Incidentally, I'm not anti-hunting, I'm anti-sport hunting. I can believe that there is "nature-respecting hunting", but whenever that term is used here, it's usually by some over-weight, gun-toting, beer-swilling fellow who's never done more than hunting for trophies so he could pose with his buddies over the corpse of some hapless stag. Blah. But, I know there are those who respect both the animal who's life they're taking, and the area they're hunting in. Any garbage they create, they pack out (take with them), they pick up their shed brass if they're using rifles, they bury their wastes, and when they do manage to get their prey, they bleed it onsite (where they killied it) and leave the organs they aren't keeping for themselves for the scavengers, so they can have a meal, too.

I have relatives who sing prayers over their prey (I'm Innu) when they hunt, to thank them for the life they've given (those of us who still hunt, that is). Most of the prayers say something along the lines of "your life for mine, mine for another when it's time"- hard to translate into English and there are many differing prayers, but the gist is the same: "thank you".

I did find your views interesting, actually. Learning a little of how another person thinks, and about their culture, is always interesting to me. It might surprise you that I've actually heard of the saga of Kelevala- unfortunately, I've never had the chance to read an English translation of it. Are the cycles of Mordenkainnen and Leminkainnen in there as well (if I even have the right characters in the right nationality)- or are their stories from a different saga? (forgive the lack of accent-marks and umlauts- I don't have my keybord set to international characters)

Cheers and keep reading! I find your comments thoughful and interesting, sir. Thank you!

You have clearly made your homework. Very good and balanced, and I could say, unbiased and fact-based knowledge about wolves. Great remarks, nice to see a person, who can base their opinions behind facts.

"[...] over-weight, gun-toting, beer-swilling fellow [...]"

Uh, what a stereotype. Sadly, too near to the reality, I know the type. Well, I'm happy I'm not one of those, I am normal-weight, I don't own a gun and I don't drink alcohol at all. But I am influenced by Finnish hunting traditions, as my father was a regular hunter. Though, during his last years in hunting he usually carried only a puukko, a Finnish knife, with him and cleaned the dead animals after his mates had done the shooting. And my father is a nature-respecting person, he loaths unnecessary killing of animals and always cleans his litter after him. Once I accidently dropped a piece of plastic on the ground when we were picking mushrooms and he didn't even give me a chance to pick my litter up before he was yapping about littering the forests. My respect towards nature I have learnt from my father.

I am happy you found my cultural references interesting. Although, I see I have to make some corrections. Kalevala is not a saga, saga refers to the Norse mythology. Kalevala is a Finnish epic poem, consisting of over twenty-two thousand individual verses, or fifty poems or cantos, if I remember right. Traditionally the verses of Kalevala are sung. Lemminkäinen is a character in Kalevala, he is young and good-looking hero and a bit of a daredevil and ladies' man, getting him often into trouble. Mordenkainen is not a character in Kalevala, he is actually a hero in one D&D setting. The two dots above a and o (ä and ö) are not actually accent-marks or umlauts, although the ¨ is called umlaut. In Finnish, ä and ö are their own phonemes, they sound different from a and o. Therefore, ä and ö are their own letters as well.

Interesting that you mentioned prayers to the newly killed prey, as Finnish culture has also those. I am not sure if there are those in Kalevala, but I could bet there are a poem or two for thanking also. There are poems to ask prey from Tapio, lord of forests, and poems to ask fish from Ahti, lord of waters. There are poems to thank the guardian spirits for the favors of the forest after a succesfull hunt. Finnish paganistic religion was very shamanistic, every single place, trees, rocks, lakes, forests, hills, houses, saunas, even outhouses have spirits guarding them according to the pre-Christian Finnish tradition. There are masses of old lore dealing about communing with the spirits, for example spirits have the right to eat from the Christmas table during the Christmas night and they have their own turn to wash themselves in the sauna. In the Finnish Christmas traditions we can see the merging of the paganistic lore and Christian tradition.

Now, the conversation seems to drift onto wholly different topics, not that I complain. Hopefully you find my reply interesting.

Indeed I do- and my apologies for using the term "saga". To me, a saga was a recited poem/story, so I thought it would be similar in the Finnish tradition. I had no idea Mordenkainnen was a D&D character- I'd thought he was drawn from some tale or other.

The only reason I happen to know anything about wolves at all is because I'm interested in their species and how they interact- I base some of my A'ao Srii behaviours on wolf-pack social behaviour, and it was off to the reference books. Heh.

The stereotype of the pudgy, beer-drinking hunter is sadly all too true, at least here- I see them coming over the border to hunt in Manitoba (where I live, normally) every Autumn. Those folks scare me. There are quite few at home, too, who hunt year round, even though it's illegal.

As for the markings over letters vs them being sounds in their own right- I did know they were phonemes on their own, I just can't replicate them with this keyboard as it's set currently. That's all I was referring to.

Yup, if a person was devout, they'd say or sing the prayers over their kill, asking forgiveness for killing them and giving them thanks for their death would feed others. I've always liked the idea, and I've incorporated a similar concept into my stories of the A'ao. I've always enjoyed spiritual tales, mythology, and religious views, especially shamanisitic outlooks. They feel the most comfortable to me, quite possibly due to my own ancestry, even though I wasn't raised with it. I like that so much of your tradition is still there to be learned. My People have lost so much because it was actually illegal until the early seventies for us to practice our Tribal religions. Also, because it was illegal for a number of generations, the Elders had trouble finding ways to teach it to those who'd be interested in it, and when Native children were taken from their families and put into Church-run schools, they lost that strong contact to their Elders, and thus lost their culture and languages, too. May you never lose your People's ways.

I'm always willing to learn. *bows*

Finns had the luck in the 19th century, when Finland was still a grand duchy of Imperial Russia, the czar was open-minded man and gave much special rights to Finland. It was the time when Finnish national idealism raised its head and all the things truly 'Finnish' started to interest the intellectual society in Finland. That's why, even if the old traditions aren't practised anymore so widely, they are written in books, our traditions aren't completely lost. Kalevala was a product of poem-collecting travels of Elias Lönnrot, he made great journeys to Karelia and listened the old poem-singers and wrote the poems down.

I have too included some shamanistic ideas into my prose, I have a race I have dubbed as "lizardfolk" in my stories, their biggest inspirerer has been the Meso-American cultures, but I also have added some ideas from the Finnish culture to them, namely the ideas of origin words, words of power and some spiritual believes. I don't have a language for them, but I have described it as "musical", like their language wanted to be sung, just like Finnish.

I have also thought of translating the poem of Kullervo into a furry form, taking some parts of the story and modernizing it a bit and changing the characters into anthropomorphic animals.

Great that you enjoyed my reply, I am always willing to share opinions, ideas and knowledge.

Great story, and I loved the names of the wolves. But your story didn't make me sad, it made me angry. What some humans choice to do to animals and nature is a disgusting, heinous abuse of power.

Indeed it is... I left hints in the last bits of the story that this was in the near-future, too- the retreating ice, starving polar bears and the herds growing fewer. The polar bears are already starving- anyone who says global warming is a fear-mongering story cooked up by nervous tree-huggers and the media needs a slap.

The possibility that we're only helping along an heating and extinction-cyle already in progress is still open. Yes, this kind of thing is cyclic, but there is still the issue that this one seems to have been excelerated by our actions, if not caused by them. Personally, I believe that we're the agent of this cycle and we may not be able to do much to change it- it's too far along. I expect the polar bear to be nearly extinct by 2050 (except, perhaps, for those in zoos), at the rate they've been starving.

Yeah, it makes me angry, it makes me cry- our stupid, greedy cruelty has driven me to become a vegetarian, despite my love for meat (I'm normally of a more carnivourous bent), but meat-eating isn't sustainable with our growing population. We need a horrible event like the zombies and plagues we so gleefully make movies about. It's almost as if we're hoping it'll happen, with the spate of movies I've been seeing in that vein lately...

If a billion and a half people were to disappear tomorrow, would it even help?

Hmpf, I'm gloomy, today... Sorry, fellow.

I like the names of the wolves, too... I tried to imagine the kinds of names they'd give each other, if their lexicon of barks, whines and growls were a language (and there are some who think it is). Descriptive names that took in appearance, scent, behaviour and gesture would likely be the result, and thus, the names I gave to my wolves.

I dont know WHAT to think XD
Sad..angry.... ARGH Mixed emotions T.T

Yeah, this story does the same to me, too. *hugs you as an antidote* The fact that this one seems to affect people in more than just "it's a good one" kind of way tells me I've hit a pretty big nerve. I thank you for responding to it, however uncomfortable it made you.

Son of a gun, this was sad. I can't imagine a death more pointless or terrorizing than being chased down and shot from a plane, and your writing skill, oh god, it just blows me away. It captures the sensorium of the animals so beautifully - if beautiful is the word for so ugly an act.

*blushes bright red* Thanks, Sir Frog. I've been working hard on my writing for a only a couple of years, but maybe I can luck out and be published some day.

Yeah, pointless and terrifying- one of the true horrors in our world. I have trouble imagining anything more frightening than to be hunted for no apparent reason, slain indescriminately and then left to rot in an un-named field in the middle of nowhere. Those are the kinds of characters or movie plots that scare me personally- probably because I can all too easily imagine how it would happen and how it would feel. I admit that I did draw a lot of inspiration from the times I was being terorized by people- my own parents, particularly, and the bullies at school. Now, admittedly, they weren't going to kill me, but the fear was no different: I thought they were going to kill me.

I don't recall if you've had a chance to read some of my other stuff? I don't remember seeing any of your comments on them. Here's some links, so you don't have go digging for 'em.

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1063782/

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1145863/

http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1196218/

All three are set in a science-fiction world where humanity is learning some of what you have to deal with when you encounter a species like the A'ao Srii...

I want to respond to this, I really do. You're writing is powerful and truthful and it's cut me to the quick. That's why I can't really say anything useful. It hurts too much.

*hugs you for your honesty* Yeah, I didn't know the way this one was going to go until I was in the middle of it... It still makes me cry, dammit. And I may have to update the possible extinction-time for the polar bears... The ice is melting too fast- they won't have anywhere to live on and hunt in easily within the next thirty years, if things keep going the way they are. *sighs, fearing that polar bears will be extinct in the wild within her lifetime*

Thank you for responding to my work- you did, you know, or else how would I know to reply? I'll write more cheerful things in the future, I'm sure.