BOOM headshot.

XD

I approve of the interaction and end result.

pity it never turns out that way in a real convo.

Oh, you just touched the tip of the iceberg on how NUTS they are. And have been.. Some of their leaders are down right scary..

and, like most extremists, its the few loud assholes that ruin the name for everyone.

If it was just a case of extremism then i would agree with you. But I am a gender egalitarian and i have looked through both sides. And while some of the mgtow stuff is scary, it doesn't hold a candle to what even 'mainstream' feminists have said.

I know most people think it's only the current third and beginning of the 4th wave that are the nuts. But even back at the start they were about out right hatred.

1972 feminist leaders call hating men a moral act. http://www.scribd.com/doc/207273213.....ral-Cause-1972

1970 noted feminist author Robin Morgan whose book Sisterhood was probably on your reading list if you took any gender/women's study courses. She says the point of it is to hate men. http://www.scribd.com/doc/207273213.....ral-Cause-1972

Boston college professor and noted academic Mary Daly has been quoted
"I think it's not a bad idea at all. If life is to survive on this planet, there must be a decontamination of the Earth. I think this will be accompanied by an evolutionary process that will result in a drastic reduction of the population of males. People are afraid to say that kind of stuff anymore.

Andrea Dworkin, who is considered a modern day leader has stated in her book.
"Pornography reveals that male pleasure is inextricably tied to victimizing, hurting, exploiting; that sexual fun and sexual passion in the privacy of the male imagination are inseparable from the brutality of male history.
The private world of sexual dominance that men demand as their right and their freedom is the mirror image of the public world of sadism and atrocity that men consistently and self-righteously deplore."
Which is saying that all male sexuality is violence and they can't get a hard on otherwise.

There is of course the ever present and popular among ALL feminists, the 'I bathe in male tears' memorabilia.

But maybe you think that i am mistaken and this is a recent trend. Let me show you what Elizabeth Cady Stanton said way back at the suffragettes.
"We are, as a sex, infinitely superior to men, and if we were free and developed, healthy in body and mind, as we should be under natural conditions, our motherhood would be our glory. That function gives women such wisdom and power as no male can possess."
Sorry for the long link.. it's the only way to link to the page.
https://books.google.com/books?id=C.....VFZH4qc&sig=dz3mkeo08O_P2QjDUTTyLYEr07U&hl=en&sa=X&ei=mK9pUaX3BsPV2AXzkYGwCA#v=onepage&q=We%20are%2C%20as%20a%20sex%2C%20infinitely%20superior%20to%20men%2C%20and%20if%20we%20were%20free%20and%20developed&f=false

Lastly let's look at julie bindle, an outspoken and loud mouthpiece for the current movement who currently works at the guardian newspaper where her views are published and fully backed by said press organization.
"will heterosexuality survive women’s liberation?

It won’t, not unless men get their act together, have their power taken from them and behave themselves. I mean, I would actually put them all in some kind of camp where they can all drive around in quad bikes, or bicycles, or white vans. I would give them a choice of vehicles to drive around with, give them no porn, they wouldn’t be able to fight – we would have wardens, of course! Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones would be able to go and visit, or take them out like a library book, and then bring them back.

I hope heterosexuality doesn’t survive, actually. I would like to see a truce on heterosexuality. I would like an amnesty on heterosexuality until we have sorted ourselves out. Because under patriarchy it’s shit.

And I am sick of hearing from individual women that their men are all right. Those men have been shored up by the advantages of patriarchy and they are complacent, they are not stopping other men from being shit.

I would love to see a women’s liberation that results in women turning away from men and saying: “when you come back as human beings, then we might look again." "

While i find the hatred towards women in the mgtow side of the mra. None of them are backed by such power and are calling for internment camps / death camps for men. So no it's NOT the extremes it's the movement itself.

The whole issue though has made me decide that if i ever find a genie, my first and possibly only wish would be to make humans hermaphrodites so at least we can stop this crazy nonsense..

The problem, i find, with lumping all the men under the shit category even when they are decent people (because they are not stopping others from being shit) is that it devalues the good men that are actually TRYING to help women.

This argument can be used in so many ways. For example, you are on a furry site and have openly agreed to liking the fur community and even owning more than one 'sona. Thus it can be assumed that you are a furry and thus a child molester. You would have no right to argue the matter and should be punished as such because enough people in the furry community have been called out as child molesters to warrant blanket blaming every person who draws or enjoys anthro animals. You could be called out on the street, harassed, publicly ridiculed, and trashed and you would not be allowed to complain because you deserve it just for being who you are. It doesn't matter if it's right or if it actually applies to you. It doesn't even matter if you were at a rally to speak out against furies who abuse children. You are a furry thus you are just as much to blame.

So often I see men standing up for women, trying to be kind and respectful, hell even whole cultures celebrating women as the bringers of life and all it all adds up to nothing because they haven't magically stopped all the hate in the world.
By feminist logic, the man who held the door open for me at the restaurant should be charged with sexual assault for daring to smile and say hello because clearly all he wanted was sex. My own fiance should be killed because he believes that women should have equal rights as men and stands up for our female friends when they are being harassed which is obviously just a ploy to rape women. Any male who dares to agree with women is automatically shot down and pissed on under the pretense that he is only being nice in order to ultimately abuse someone. I, myself, am just as bad. I am guilty for enabling the oppression of women in the world because I have a male fiance who I love and respect. if I was really supportive of the cause I would dump him right here and no, kick him out, and only date my own kind (which is impossible out here since almost all the women I am good friends with are turning into the hated male, yet they are somehow not evil man supporting betrayers because a female man is not as bad as a male man. that's a whole other can of prejudice worms right there).

Where do we draw the line between fighting against the oppression of women and being just as bad as the people we are fighting against? We say we don't want men putting us up on a pedestal but then we put ourselves up there. We are equal to men! But look at how much MORE equal we are! Down with the men! Women must rise to ultimate power! Only then will we be equal to the people we just crushed under our boots? How is that equal?

If we really want equality, we need to stop devaluing the men who are putting themselves out there for us. Stop looking at all men as rapists and assholes just because a certain percentage of them are. Yes, that's a large percentage, but there are people fighting against that in the world and not all of them have vaginas.

Though I do agree that human reproduction needs to calm the fuck down till humans get their shit together. Maybe not stopping altogether, as we would die off as a species faster than you'd think if EVERYONE stopped breeding, but maybe go China's route and limit the amount of kids each family can have. We are breeding far too fast and bringing way too many confused children into the middle of a hate filled war that they are being forced by us adults to pick sides in. Hell, most little girls don't hate men because they are oppressive assoles who only want sex. THey hate men because they have cooties. The little boys don't want to be friends with the girls because they see a walking penis sleeve, they want the girl for a friend because she's good at sports and doesn't laugh when he wears something glittery for PJ day.

The hate for both sides is TAUGHT.

We are not going to magically make all the men be good, and it certainly won't be done by eliminating all the Y chromosomes in the world. Even in a world full of nothing but women there will be people thinking they are better than other people and acting accordingly. This is going to take time and effort. It won't happen in our lifetime. It will happen with our kids being taught to get along and not make the mistakes we did. This war has gone on for centuries and it may go on for centuries more, but we will get nowhere if we keep making it an us against them issue rather than trying to find common ground.

also, in your utopia, "Women who want to see their sons or male loved ones" is totally wrong. there would be no male loved ones or sons because women would never breed with men. Even if they somehow did it would likely be considered rape and if they gave birth to a boy that child would be thrown in jail instantly because there is no such thing as an innocent man, no matter what the age. a man is a man and that child will grow into an oppressor no matter what. If you start making allowances like 'i love my son/husband/father' or 'i will raise my son to respect women' then you have to start telling the difference between son/husband/father and rapist/molester/oppressor and people will start to think that some of the men maybe don't belong in jail because they are 'good'. The whole system would fall apart.
More often than not, if a woman became pregnant with a boy she would likely just abort the foul thing before it became a blight upon the earth.

I think.. you mis-read what i wrote.. i wasn't supporting that viewpoint. i was pointing out how nuts the majority of the feminist group is..

sorry but when you went off on how men need to be put in prison camps and that women shouldn't be defending their own guys because they guys aren't stopping other guys from being assholes it really felt like you were supporting it.

Yea i could have worded it better, I was just grabbing quotes and linking to the sources from the resources I have.

What i posted was the scary nuts. The crazy ones had a hit this week and i had to resist hitting my head against something hard because of it.

they were calling on nasa to somehow send out a replacement golden record because they felt the one on voyager 1 'did not represent the 'diversity' of humans' and 'the depiction of the man and woman on it is offensive.'
as in this one.
http://i.ytimg.com/vi/HkLjnv2-2fg/m.....resdefault.jpg
they called his hand up in greeting an 'aggressive masculine gesture' and took offense to the 'woman meekly standing behind him.'

It's crazy like this that makes me want to go up to any aliens, and beg them to take me with them..

oh! ok for a minute there i was worried that one of those blasted 'death to all men' extremists was following me for some obscure reason when i have stated so many times that i am against that. its like they go looking for fights sometimes!
And yes i do consider them extremists, considering that many of the feminists I know are more along the lines of 'i want to be paid the same as the men for doing the same work' rather than 'the man who gets paid more should be shot because clearly i am better because i have a vagina'.

I don't know what country you live in but in the united states it's been enshrined in law since 1963 that to pay a woman less than a man for the same job is illegal.
And the current pay gap meme is the result of high school level math error that anyone should be able to catch.

They take all the yearly earnings of men, and all the yearly earnings of women. And do a simple average. Not to mention conflating the terms 'payed' and 'earned'. The former, as i said is mandated by law for over 50 years to be equal to that of men for the exact same work(I do have to state an employer can discriminate pay wise if the pay scale is set to a merit or pay per performance scale) is the amount the employer pays per hour or on a salary basis. The latter is what the employee gets due to either the hours put in at the end of the year, or their salary minus unpaid leave. Like say you had a salaried position and take time off to give birth and raise the kid for a short while.

The factors it fails to take into account are; profession, hours worked, full time or part time, and the choice of using maternity leave.

For example women in the medical field tend to, though their are exceptions, choose lower paying fields like family medicine and pediatrics compared to anesthesiology and neurosurgery.

A personal example a woman that used to work at the job i do would take off at 5pm if not earlier while always giving the reason being she had to get her kid. Giving her the benefit of the doubt that they all were and she was not using the kid as an excuse, this is the kind of behavior that they fail to take into account.
In that vein employment polls show that more women than men prefer part time work. This also hurts their yearly earnings and feeds the myth because you can't compare a part time workers earnings to a full time workers.

If you factor these into the equation, like any good person should. You would find that in the majority of cases there are no gaps. In some fields there might be a gap of a couple of cents. And in a slightly larger amount, there are cases where women are being payed MORE than their male counterparts. Modeling is, pardon the pun, a poster child of this.

Im in Canada and its illegal here too. Does not stop the complaining.

For example, an average everyday woman working in the oil fields tends to earn less than the average man. The fact that they are often assigned less strenuous tasks due to the much lower muscle mass that most women have than men is never taken into account by these women. they want to be paid the same doing their laundry detail as the guy that's hauling 400 pound pipes.

I did notice a severe difference in my gas station job when my coworker is earning close to 15 dollars an hour whereas I am fighting for my 10 dollars while my boss is docking my hours for silly shit like bathroom breaks and 'i dont care if its minus 5 and the snow is blowing sideways and you live a half hour away if i call you and tell you to be here on foot in 5 minutes i mean it' but that was less oppression and more my boss was an asshole. He honestly thought I was worthless for being a woman and paid me accordingly. HQ did nothing about it and told me it was my issue. -shrug- such is life.

As far as women choosing lower paying fields, a lot of the women out here aren't acting like its a choice. They seem to think that since they aren't strong enough or smart enough to get through the training for some of the high paying jobs that they are being forced into the lower paying ones. As if the higher paying jobs need to change to allow them in. They're not weaker than the men, the jobs are only giving out work to the men, CLEARLY. Yes, I actually had a woman tell me this.

I know full well there are no real gaps. The gaps are all in people's heads. we are paid for the work we do and we choose the work we CAN do. Oppression aside, women tend to multitask better, men are usually physically stronger, and though there are many places where this isn't true for some people the trend is true for most. Just because a 90 pound soaking wet spaghetti noodle in a miniskirt gets turned down to haul heavy boxes for a warehouse, doesn't mean she is being oppressed for being a girl. She is being turned down for not being able to do the damned job.

I agree with most of that. And while i think you should have pursued legal actions against that employer at that time, I realize that you did not have the funds needed to pursue it.

It could be some think they have no other choice, but most it is because of their own free will. It's often called the norwegian gender paradox.
The more equal and socially stable the population gets. The more they flock to 'traditional' gender roles rather than say, an even mix of male and female high end engineers.

http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xp.....y-paradox_news

Is a good documentary on the subject.

ooo i DO like documentaries, especially when they aren't preachy! :D

So much this. You hit it on the nose, Aemi. ^^

Turnabout is fair play.

EVen if you don't like it. -nods-

May I present a counter argument?

-licks his lips- All feminists are tasty

Trust me man. Not ALL feminists XD

This one looks like she is. -grins evilly-

Pretty much yeah.

and if you look to your right, you'll see shots being fired, and minds being fucked

and if you look to your left, you see me in a futile argument against a 'death to all men' activist who i have no idea why they follow me knowing full well that I love and support men and actually believe they don't all deserve to be lumped together with the assholes.

Why I answer these arguments, ill never know. Sucker for abuse i suppose.

That's hillarious!

Dave Barry's Complete Guide To Guys:
"Guys think about sex all the time. This is not to say that women do not, but females are capable of at least for short periods of time think about other things."