FA+
Shop
351
Views
Views
4
Favorites
Favorites
Category
Artwork (Traditional) / General Furry Art
Species Dog (Other)
Size 540 x 772
File Size 108.3 kB
Report this content
More from silverwing
A new character I made up because I needed a tri sheltie character!
Fredrick O'Brian + Art © JGF 08
Fredrick O'Brian + Art © JGF 08
Category Artwork (Traditional) / General Furry Art
Species Dog (Other)
Size 540 x 772px
File Size 108.3 kB
awwwww, he's adorable! Love the character and the pic. :D
Apropos of nothing, IRL tri shelties never have blue eyes, at least as I understand how the genes work. The blue eyes come from the merling gene, which is dominant and so always expresses when present. So, not all merle shelties have blue eyes, but only merle shelties have them. On a bi-black dog, the merle gene modifies him into a bi-blue (Coba!), a tri dog becomes a classic blue merle (with the little tan points) and a sable becomes a sable merle...and potentially the blue-eyed sable that the standard penalizes so harshly.
Sable merles are fairly rare because convention frowns upon the merle-sable breeding---sable merles can be really hard to tell from sables when grown (though it's obvious in the puppies) if they are not blue-eyed. (They just look like pale sables, which are common in pure sable breeding). Of course, a merle-merle breeding usually results in a littler with one or more homozygous merles, which are white dogs and usually blind or deaf. Breeders wanting to avoid this happening accidentally is probably how blue eyed sables are all but disqualified out of hand, but it's actually a problem that is very easily solved by knowing your dog and its breeding (which you should before breeding it anyway, right?). There's now something of a debate in shelties over whether or not to allow blue eyed sables after all. Personally, I like them. :) I would change the standard to allow sable merles, whatever eye color, and show them in the all other colors class, not the sable class. It makes no sense to prohibit blue eyed sable merles when non blue-eyed sable merles are shown with impunity in the sable division.
Apropos of nothing, IRL tri shelties never have blue eyes, at least as I understand how the genes work. The blue eyes come from the merling gene, which is dominant and so always expresses when present. So, not all merle shelties have blue eyes, but only merle shelties have them. On a bi-black dog, the merle gene modifies him into a bi-blue (Coba!), a tri dog becomes a classic blue merle (with the little tan points) and a sable becomes a sable merle...and potentially the blue-eyed sable that the standard penalizes so harshly.
Sable merles are fairly rare because convention frowns upon the merle-sable breeding---sable merles can be really hard to tell from sables when grown (though it's obvious in the puppies) if they are not blue-eyed. (They just look like pale sables, which are common in pure sable breeding). Of course, a merle-merle breeding usually results in a littler with one or more homozygous merles, which are white dogs and usually blind or deaf. Breeders wanting to avoid this happening accidentally is probably how blue eyed sables are all but disqualified out of hand, but it's actually a problem that is very easily solved by knowing your dog and its breeding (which you should before breeding it anyway, right?). There's now something of a debate in shelties over whether or not to allow blue eyed sables after all. Personally, I like them. :) I would change the standard to allow sable merles, whatever eye color, and show them in the all other colors class, not the sable class. It makes no sense to prohibit blue eyed sable merles when non blue-eyed sable merles are shown with impunity in the sable division.
Actually blue eyes are not connected soley to the merle gene, there are other modifiers and genes that allow blue eyes to be expressed in any breed (say, a blue-eyed weimaraner) which are not fully understood. It is more common to have blue eyes in a dog which has merle SOMEWHERE in its line. This is why I suggested to Jolyn that she should have at least one of the parents be a merle.
There's always debates in breeds when things like that happen. Should the standard be adhered to completely or should it be modified to allow the things we now understand about genetics? Personally I think it depends on the breed. As far as shelties go, if they're not breeding colours by themselves (i.e. blacks w/any modifer together, and sables together) then things like that will happen. In Cocker Spaniels ASCOBS and Blacks are bred together, but neither are ever bred with Partis since the standard for ASCOB and Black disqualifies the dog if it has white anywhere other than on the chest or throat.
There's always debates in breeds when things like that happen. Should the standard be adhered to completely or should it be modified to allow the things we now understand about genetics? Personally I think it depends on the breed. As far as shelties go, if they're not breeding colours by themselves (i.e. blacks w/any modifer together, and sables together) then things like that will happen. In Cocker Spaniels ASCOBS and Blacks are bred together, but neither are ever bred with Partis since the standard for ASCOB and Black disqualifies the dog if it has white anywhere other than on the chest or throat.
Oh, interesting! I know that other genes do cause blue eyes in dogs generally, but didn't know that these were known to show up in Shelties, or that merle could pass the blue eyes in a way that jumped a generation like that. I don't suppose you know of any photos of a tri or a bi-black with blue eyes? (That would be one stunning dog). Thanks for sharing the info!
Neat about the cockers; that makes sense. With shelties, DQing blue-eye sables just seems arbitrary, given that most such dogs will be the sable merles, and non blue eyed sable merles are perfectly showable...seems like all such dogs, or none of them, should be allowed.
Neat about the cockers; that makes sense. With shelties, DQing blue-eye sables just seems arbitrary, given that most such dogs will be the sable merles, and non blue eyed sable merles are perfectly showable...seems like all such dogs, or none of them, should be allowed.
As far as I know in any breed that has merle, blue or wall eyes can be passed down to non-merle childred just because one parent was merle. It's seen very often in collies and border collies as well as australian shepherds. And yes, a black and white irish border is very stunning, so I assume a black and white irish (bi-black) sheltie would also be stunning. I can't say I've seen a photo but that's only because I haven't looked at all. The only breed photos I look for are cockers. xD
I agree, but simply from a bureaucratic point of view it's way more complicated than that. Does the AKC even have an option to register a sable merle AS a sable merle and not a sable? That's a problem with certain mismark cockers, and so they get registred as the wrong thing. It's also a problem because the ACK doesn't describe exactly what they mean by that colour. I know this is also a problem with other breeds that have multiple colours, some of which either introduced through cross-breeding (if a colour has been in a dog for four generations, even if it's been introduced through crossing out to another breed, the AKC accepts the colour as part of the breed. This I disagree with, for even having one drop of another breed's blood in it makes it a mixed breed) or from recessive genes "popping up", there isn't an option to register the dogs even though they fit standard because "all colours and markings are allowed".
I agree, but simply from a bureaucratic point of view it's way more complicated than that. Does the AKC even have an option to register a sable merle AS a sable merle and not a sable? That's a problem with certain mismark cockers, and so they get registred as the wrong thing. It's also a problem because the ACK doesn't describe exactly what they mean by that colour. I know this is also a problem with other breeds that have multiple colours, some of which either introduced through cross-breeding (if a colour has been in a dog for four generations, even if it's been introduced through crossing out to another breed, the AKC accepts the colour as part of the breed. This I disagree with, for even having one drop of another breed's blood in it makes it a mixed breed) or from recessive genes "popping up", there isn't an option to register the dogs even though they fit standard because "all colours and markings are allowed".
NEAT to know that about the eyes, none of the breed genetic websites I've found talk about blue eyes in anything other than a blue merle context. I have seen blue-eyed border collies and they are indeed gorgeous.
The sheltie standard is annoyingly vague in just that way. There's one class for sables and one for all other recognized colors, which include blue merles. There is no language in the standard prohibiting or permitting sable merles, just severely penalizing blue eyed sables and 'washed out or faded' colors. That last could, in theory, be applied to the sable merles, though it's usually applied to the very rare self and liver dogs which occasionally crop up...many sables are as pale as sable merles, with no penalty. The sable merles are registered as sable....which is BAD!...and shown as sable. IMHO they should be in the all other color class, not the sable class, and because of the merle thing they should always be accurately registered.
The sheltie standard is annoyingly vague in just that way. There's one class for sables and one for all other recognized colors, which include blue merles. There is no language in the standard prohibiting or permitting sable merles, just severely penalizing blue eyed sables and 'washed out or faded' colors. That last could, in theory, be applied to the sable merles, though it's usually applied to the very rare self and liver dogs which occasionally crop up...many sables are as pale as sable merles, with no penalty. The sable merles are registered as sable....which is BAD!...and shown as sable. IMHO they should be in the all other color class, not the sable class, and because of the merle thing they should always be accurately registered.
I don't usually look at breed-specific sites unless I need it for a research thing. The general genetics is what I've looked at, though I find dog genetics not as interesting as cat or horse genetics. Except cockers have some pretty weird modifiers or genes that aren't understood that make recessive red (buff) act as a dominant. It's weird!
Yeah that registration should be fixed. If enough people contacted the national sheltie breed club, the breed club can petition to have the AKC standard made more clear. I agree that the pale or washed out colours usually refer to liver and dilutes (blue, lilac/isabella, fawn), as in most other breeds that have that phrase those are the colours they are in reference to (i.e. the German Shepherd). And it is true that because of the merle gene they should be accurately registered. But a sable merle that isn't merled very much won't be as obvious in a puppy as a sable merle that is more evenly merled, so concievably things could still be registered wrong. Genetic tests, if they're accurate enough for that in shelties, I don't know, should always be done.
Yeah that registration should be fixed. If enough people contacted the national sheltie breed club, the breed club can petition to have the AKC standard made more clear. I agree that the pale or washed out colours usually refer to liver and dilutes (blue, lilac/isabella, fawn), as in most other breeds that have that phrase those are the colours they are in reference to (i.e. the German Shepherd). And it is true that because of the merle gene they should be accurately registered. But a sable merle that isn't merled very much won't be as obvious in a puppy as a sable merle that is more evenly merled, so concievably things could still be registered wrong. Genetic tests, if they're accurate enough for that in shelties, I don't know, should always be done.
Thank you so much for the info hon! I am pretty clueless when it comes to dog genetics so Kaycee has been explaining some things to me and thank you for your input too, any info you have to share is very appreciated! I must start doing some more research on genetics myself so I can understand things a bit better. It's all so complicated though! Or maybe it just seems that way since I don't know much about it.
I did know the part about the double-merles, and how bad that is. I remember being so disgusted when I was searching websites for collie breeders. I found one site that actually prizes itself on selling double merles... and while yes they are beautiful it is still so awful cause they usually have so many health problems, on top of being blind/deaf... sure maybe 1 out of every 10 may come out ok but what about those other puppies that have a horrible life because the breeder was being an idiot? Ugh it upsets me so much. x_x
But again thank you! Any other info you may have regarding genetics is greatly appreciated! <3
I did know the part about the double-merles, and how bad that is. I remember being so disgusted when I was searching websites for collie breeders. I found one site that actually prizes itself on selling double merles... and while yes they are beautiful it is still so awful cause they usually have so many health problems, on top of being blind/deaf... sure maybe 1 out of every 10 may come out ok but what about those other puppies that have a horrible life because the breeder was being an idiot? Ugh it upsets me so much. x_x
But again thank you! Any other info you may have regarding genetics is greatly appreciated! <3
Oh, genetics is an endlessly fascinating subject, and not all that difficult to grasp if you spend the time.
This is a good site with photos of pretty much everything: http://www.snovali.com/other/colors.htm
And I love this one, it has a hypothetical litter calculator that lets you see what you might get if you cross various colors, potentially a good learning tool and certainly fun to play with:
http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/sheltiecalc.html
Grrr, I can't believe there was a breeder who would deliberately produce double merles! How irresponsible can you get? I don't know about collies, but with shelties, not all white dogs are the defective homozygous (i.e, carries two copies of the gene, one from each parent) merle...a completely different gene causes color-headed whites. These white dogs are caused by homozygous white-factor. Heterozygous (carries only one copy of the gene) white-factor is impossible to determine for sure unless the dog is bred out and throws a color-headed white, since in its het. form the gene only produces the typical white marks of the breed. These guys are perfectly healthy and really beautiful, but can't be shown (though there are some who would change that and presumably breed for it).
Another fun sheltie fact is that tri is apparently dominant over bi...so if I ever breed Rogue (tri-factored sable) with Coba (bi-blue), I will never have bi-blue or bi-black pups. But, if Rogue is only a heterozygous tri factor (and this I have no way of knowing), their grandchildren could end up bi-color. Bi factor apparently exists in shelties but not in collies, and many of the original 'toonies' were bi dogs.
This is a good site with photos of pretty much everything: http://www.snovali.com/other/colors.htm
And I love this one, it has a hypothetical litter calculator that lets you see what you might get if you cross various colors, potentially a good learning tool and certainly fun to play with:
http://www.athro.com/evo/gen/sheltiecalc.html
Grrr, I can't believe there was a breeder who would deliberately produce double merles! How irresponsible can you get? I don't know about collies, but with shelties, not all white dogs are the defective homozygous (i.e, carries two copies of the gene, one from each parent) merle...a completely different gene causes color-headed whites. These white dogs are caused by homozygous white-factor. Heterozygous (carries only one copy of the gene) white-factor is impossible to determine for sure unless the dog is bred out and throws a color-headed white, since in its het. form the gene only produces the typical white marks of the breed. These guys are perfectly healthy and really beautiful, but can't be shown (though there are some who would change that and presumably breed for it).
Another fun sheltie fact is that tri is apparently dominant over bi...so if I ever breed Rogue (tri-factored sable) with Coba (bi-blue), I will never have bi-blue or bi-black pups. But, if Rogue is only a heterozygous tri factor (and this I have no way of knowing), their grandchildren could end up bi-color. Bi factor apparently exists in shelties but not in collies, and many of the original 'toonies' were bi dogs.
Oh wow that is so interesting! I had no clue that tri was dominant over the bi colors! And I also didn't realize there were no bi collies, but now that I think about it I can honestly say I've never seen any bi colored collie ever, so it makes sense!
I am hoping the same is true for this collie page as you were explaining about shelties not always being defective homozygous, but that some of them can carry the white gene. I really hope it's true cause otherwise this breeder is doing some serious damage to his/her dogs.
I just commented on your other pic of your pups but was wondering if you know of any particuarly good sheltie breeders. I forget where it is you live exactly, so they may be far away from me but still I am curious. I am starting to research breeders now as we are looking to get a new sheltie, preferably a tri. Any breeders you may recommend are very appreciated! :3
I am hoping the same is true for this collie page as you were explaining about shelties not always being defective homozygous, but that some of them can carry the white gene. I really hope it's true cause otherwise this breeder is doing some serious damage to his/her dogs.
I just commented on your other pic of your pups but was wondering if you know of any particuarly good sheltie breeders. I forget where it is you live exactly, so they may be far away from me but still I am curious. I am starting to research breeders now as we are looking to get a new sheltie, preferably a tri. Any breeders you may recommend are very appreciated! :3
OK, I looked into it, and apparently color-headed white collies are not penalized at all in the show ring (which makes sense, as there's no genetic reason to prohibit them). Since they are bred for, the kennel you saw is probably going for this trait, not the lethal merle. I found this breeder, who is apparently specializing in it, and has some gorgeous dogs.
http://dynastycollies.com/whitecollie.html
As for shelties, I can certainly recommend Coba's breeder, Marie Rodgers of Outlaw Shelties. She has some really nice dogs (which I can attest to, Coba is great!) and has some tri animals. Unfortunately, her family has had some health issues, so I don't know what she has planned for breeding, but she can probably point you in good directions.
http://www.outlawkennelshelties.com/NewHome.html
I will be breeding Coba at some point, assuming he stays in size and does well in the ring, but that won't be for some time.
http://dynastycollies.com/whitecollie.html
As for shelties, I can certainly recommend Coba's breeder, Marie Rodgers of Outlaw Shelties. She has some really nice dogs (which I can attest to, Coba is great!) and has some tri animals. Unfortunately, her family has had some health issues, so I don't know what she has planned for breeding, but she can probably point you in good directions.
http://www.outlawkennelshelties.com/NewHome.html
I will be breeding Coba at some point, assuming he stays in size and does well in the ring, but that won't be for some time.
Oh wow those white collies are beautiful!! I would love to own one one day.. how gorgeous!
And thank you so much for the link! I will check out her shelties and perhaps contact her to see who she may recommend for breeders if she isn't breeding now. I'm trying to find someone nearby to me so that we could possibly visit them and see the puppies beforehand, but that just may not be possible seeing as most of the good breeders I'm finding are in states far away from me. Did you have Coba shipped to you, or were you able to meet him before?
And omg if you ever do breed him let me know I'd so love a sheltie baby from you! XD
<333
And thank you so much for the link! I will check out her shelties and perhaps contact her to see who she may recommend for breeders if she isn't breeding now. I'm trying to find someone nearby to me so that we could possibly visit them and see the puppies beforehand, but that just may not be possible seeing as most of the good breeders I'm finding are in states far away from me. Did you have Coba shipped to you, or were you able to meet him before?
And omg if you ever do breed him let me know I'd so love a sheltie baby from you! XD
<333
Yeah, the more I look at collies the more I am tempted. :P
I only saw Coba in pictures before I met him...when I met him for the first time, sitting very quietly in the back of his airline crate, I was blown away because he was so much more beautiful than I'd even hoped. :) I would have liked to have seen pups first too, but many won't part with a prospect to a new show person, so starting can be difficult. I really wanted a bi blue male, and there he was, so I snagged him. <G>
Right now it looks like Marie has a pretty bi black boy available, but maybe she'll have pups in the spring. I will let you know before I breed; I want to have at least some homes set up beforehand, and prefer the pups to go to people I know. :)
I only saw Coba in pictures before I met him...when I met him for the first time, sitting very quietly in the back of his airline crate, I was blown away because he was so much more beautiful than I'd even hoped. :) I would have liked to have seen pups first too, but many won't part with a prospect to a new show person, so starting can be difficult. I really wanted a bi blue male, and there he was, so I snagged him. <G>
Right now it looks like Marie has a pretty bi black boy available, but maybe she'll have pups in the spring. I will let you know before I breed; I want to have at least some homes set up beforehand, and prefer the pups to go to people I know. :)
If you're looking for genetics sites, there's a couple I go to for reference.
http://dogs.lokatt.se/index.htm --> is good and gives you the absolute basics in a very clear and easy to understand way.
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ --> more complicated and more reading, but if you're anything like me, it's really interesting. xD also many photos of many breeds!
other sites:
http://www.canine-genetics.com/
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Genetics.html
Hope that helps! :D
http://dogs.lokatt.se/index.htm --> is good and gives you the absolute basics in a very clear and easy to understand way.
http://abnormality.purpleflowers.net/genetics/ --> more complicated and more reading, but if you're anything like me, it's really interesting. xD also many photos of many breeds!
other sites:
http://www.canine-genetics.com/
http://bowlingsite.mcf.com/Genetics/Genetics.html
Hope that helps! :D
Comments