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Dragon wins (unfinished)
So here we... wait a minute *looks at the title* UNFINISHED... well yea, you see lately i cant quite get myself to actually finish my stuff as the lak of actual uploads may show buuut since i wanted to draw this for a bit now i just did a quick coloration to show it off, when i get out of my artist block (or more a artist pit as i get some drawings done but cant finsih them) i'll work this into a fully done work, as for now i'll leave this here for a day or two and then move it to scraps.
On the the pic itself, yes it's a bit abot things bugging me (not in a depressive way, more like that little itch in the back of the neck bugging)... this here about the seeming "rule" of dragons having to lose in a fight... now you might ask yourself "but wait, in furry fandom dragons win quite often against knights", yea against knights no problem but whenever i see a "dragon vs. X" fight it's almost always "dragon loses"
This already bugged me a few years back when a friend (cant remember who, it's already a few years ago and i have a hard time remembering last hour) did a pic like this and, surprise, made the dragon lose... when i asked him why he said "the dragon winning yould be to cliche"... seriously?... i wondered if he might have missed the past, i dont know, 10000 years of history and culture?... since when have dragons been the cliche WINNERS, it's rare enough that they SURVIVE a fight
I actually built a theory on that i might wanna submit to TV Tropes, the "cliche^2"... this is a cliche that has establishes itself SO DAMN HARD that even when it's broken just ONCE the aversion is called a cliche on it's own... a example would be crappy sports movies, usualy the underdog team always wins in the end but IF they lose (happens rarely) didnt you ever feel that "oh it's so cliche they lose last second" feeling even though this SO rarely happens?
AAaaaanyway, about a small danny gripe, dont take to serious, dont turn to drama, eat healthy, wear fresh underwear every day and say no to nuclear weapons... sorry trailed off a little ^..^;
On the the pic itself, yes it's a bit abot things bugging me (not in a depressive way, more like that little itch in the back of the neck bugging)... this here about the seeming "rule" of dragons having to lose in a fight... now you might ask yourself "but wait, in furry fandom dragons win quite often against knights", yea against knights no problem but whenever i see a "dragon vs. X" fight it's almost always "dragon loses"
This already bugged me a few years back when a friend (cant remember who, it's already a few years ago and i have a hard time remembering last hour) did a pic like this and, surprise, made the dragon lose... when i asked him why he said "the dragon winning yould be to cliche"... seriously?... i wondered if he might have missed the past, i dont know, 10000 years of history and culture?... since when have dragons been the cliche WINNERS, it's rare enough that they SURVIVE a fight
I actually built a theory on that i might wanna submit to TV Tropes, the "cliche^2"... this is a cliche that has establishes itself SO DAMN HARD that even when it's broken just ONCE the aversion is called a cliche on it's own... a example would be crappy sports movies, usualy the underdog team always wins in the end but IF they lose (happens rarely) didnt you ever feel that "oh it's so cliche they lose last second" feeling even though this SO rarely happens?
AAaaaanyway, about a small danny gripe, dont take to serious, dont turn to drama, eat healthy, wear fresh underwear every day and say no to nuclear weapons... sorry trailed off a little ^..^;
Category Artwork (Digital) / General Furry Art
Species Western Dragon
Size 722 x 806px
File Size 159.2 kB
Yeah that is an annoyance especially at my school where most teachers call students who are bad behaved or stupid are called dragons :S
Even though everyone at my school knows i love dragons or that my first korean name means dragon <.<
Oops, this is not what a comment is for XD
Well, awesome job as always XD
There must be more of these
Even though everyone at my school knows i love dragons or that my first korean name means dragon <.<
Oops, this is not what a comment is for XD
Well, awesome job as always XD
There must be more of these
I have to agree with you here on that last point. It's more of that mindset that we've been programed so well to think the otherwise that to see it happen makes us go it's so predictable.
I also blame they fact that us as humans as a race have a supriority complex. To even agains, if hey were real, dragons and super creatures, we have to win, because we are the best.
I also blame they fact that us as humans as a race have a supriority complex. To even agains, if hey were real, dragons and super creatures, we have to win, because we are the best.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1968878
I "lost", which I use loosely, because people were hoping to see me eaten by Armorine (bigger belly!), and he's the artist running the contest :p
I "lost", which I use loosely, because people were hoping to see me eaten by Armorine (bigger belly!), and he's the artist running the contest :p
I know i know... as i said it's something that bugged me a while already, this just kinda was one of the things the "poked" at it... and i know the "others" decided this to happen (and as i seen so far 3 dragons where in and all 3 lost)... though this does kinda "strengthen" my thoughts about the peoples mentality but eh...
Jerin is kinda like a dragon, and Charem is a Charmeleon... they don't count! =P
You take this stuff too seriously. The fights are always close and probably not statistically significant, and in the two cases where it was straight-up dragons losing, it was always against the artist himself.
You need to just be happy ^O^
You take this stuff too seriously. The fights are always close and probably not statistically significant, and in the two cases where it was straight-up dragons losing, it was always against the artist himself.
You need to just be happy ^O^
Hm yea... but i wasnt originally refering to those "fights" even though yes they did play a role but as is aid it was something on my mind for a longer time already... it's not somethign depressing me but bugging me
well... guess i'm on of those dragons who cant win in that huh... :P...
well... guess i'm on of those dragons who cant win in that huh... :P...
in that case i honestly wouldnt care much, it would be a fight "fav vs. fav" and yes, i see where you're trying to get, it would depend on who of the both i like more... but again this is not neccessarily on "vote for who you want to win" stuff but on "i decide to just let 2 random characters fight, dragon loses" scenarios
I agree to your statement. There are so many bloody stereotypical idiots these days that even if they were slugged across the face they insist that things remains so despite contrary evidence. It is like how demons are always thought of as bad even though other cultures have cases where the demons were actually good. I remember one story from Tibet that this guy went to a den of demons not to kill them or exorcise them but to convert them to the Buddhist religion like he was doing everyone else in the area. Even China has temples that are protected by demons and one even dedicated to those demons. Nevertheless everyone insists they all must be bad. That is just one of many examples.
Totally understand the conundrum, it's a matter of expectancy.
It's cliche to go with the grain, and it's cliche to go against it. The only way you're not going to be cliche in this case is if (in example Dragon vs. X) the cameraman wins because he sold the video to high bidding television companies. Even "random endings" such as that are cliche as a collaborate. This is because there are always three possible outcomes in one on one duels in entertaining formats such as drawings or movies and such: Dragon wins, competitor wins, or other.
As for dragons winning, as many RPGs out there with dragons as common enemies (or even uncommon enemies) I see enough die there. Time to see some draggies in the winners' circle!
It's cliche to go with the grain, and it's cliche to go against it. The only way you're not going to be cliche in this case is if (in example Dragon vs. X) the cameraman wins because he sold the video to high bidding television companies. Even "random endings" such as that are cliche as a collaborate. This is because there are always three possible outcomes in one on one duels in entertaining formats such as drawings or movies and such: Dragon wins, competitor wins, or other.
As for dragons winning, as many RPGs out there with dragons as common enemies (or even uncommon enemies) I see enough die there. Time to see some draggies in the winners' circle!
Hmm.. This sorta reminded me of something I found interesting. I forgot what documentary it was I saw this on, but they were talking about the story of St. George and the dragon. They pointed out that often in paintings of the fight between the two, the dragon was shown with clearly exposed female genitals, something about the church's quiet demonizeing of women. Still, just stuck with me cause in most stories you never hear about the dragon being female, everyone just assumes it's always male.
You know, in Christianity, dragons represented paganism. So whenever there was a fight against a dragon, it would lose--this parallels how Christianity has destroyed paganism. And hence I don't trust Christianity.
I learned this by reading "Dancing with Dragons." A must read for dragon enthusists.
I think the dragon should win against humans about 85-90% of the time. Think about all the people who want to be a hero by slaying a dragon but are too weak to do so. But when it comes to furries, well, it all comes down to who the fighters are, not their race.
My rant is done.
I learned this by reading "Dancing with Dragons." A must read for dragon enthusists.
I think the dragon should win against humans about 85-90% of the time. Think about all the people who want to be a hero by slaying a dragon but are too weak to do so. But when it comes to furries, well, it all comes down to who the fighters are, not their race.
My rant is done.
From the standpoint of history, it really depends on where in the world you are looking for dragons. Europe's Christian fundamentalism after the fall of the Roman empire led to a backlash against all things non-angelic (as Soren Tylus said right above me), but in other countries, dragons were revered as wise, or even as gods. Most of Asia have both good and evil dragons, but even then the lines of good and evil were skewed because, well, most Asian cultures didn't see things as black and white as the Holy Roman Church did.
As for other cultures, just look at the Aztecs and Incas, and any other South or Central American group. Quetzalcoatl is a serpent-dragon god, and he was the god of the sky and a creator god. People in Aztec culture sacrificed human hearts to him. You don't mess with Quetzalcoatl. Other serpent gods were sovereigns over the hunt, fertility, food, and one, Coatlicue, gave birth to the heavens.
I'm not saying you're wrong, the PR guy for dragons during the Middle Ages must have been asleep at the wheel, but a lot of cultures revered, and still revere, dragons.
As for other cultures, just look at the Aztecs and Incas, and any other South or Central American group. Quetzalcoatl is a serpent-dragon god, and he was the god of the sky and a creator god. People in Aztec culture sacrificed human hearts to him. You don't mess with Quetzalcoatl. Other serpent gods were sovereigns over the hunt, fertility, food, and one, Coatlicue, gave birth to the heavens.
I'm not saying you're wrong, the PR guy for dragons during the Middle Ages must have been asleep at the wheel, but a lot of cultures revered, and still revere, dragons.
Vargr rather likes the "dragon victor" angle too. Of couse, being a dragonwuff, perhaps Vargr is a bit biased. After all, he has a bit of dragon heritage even if he doesn't wear scales. *grins*
Wuff even wrote one of his stories from that angle; "Bearding The Dragon".
( http://d.furaffinity.net/art/vrghr/.....the_dragon.pdf )
It's not the typical 'dragonslayer' adventure, though it does have dragon and an adventurer in search of dragon treasure. Vargr would say that the dragon 'wins' the encounter in that story, though the victory conditions are a bit unusual. Wuff thinks you might enjoy it.
Wuff even wrote one of his stories from that angle; "Bearding The Dragon".
( http://d.furaffinity.net/art/vrghr/.....the_dragon.pdf )
It's not the typical 'dragonslayer' adventure, though it does have dragon and an adventurer in search of dragon treasure. Vargr would say that the dragon 'wins' the encounter in that story, though the victory conditions are a bit unusual. Wuff thinks you might enjoy it.
The problem's that Dragons and their 'cousins' are, when they're placed into a story, the prequel to the True "Big Bad", so they have to go down and the heroes have to reach the real 'evil', or else it feels unfufilling, when you look at classic lit. So, having a dragon as a good character, or the winnner, comes off wrong to most people, regardless of their reasoning why.
well i think this just goes all back into the whole little papyrus that those grunting apes were writing on it so long ago and suddnely though things that slivered were instantly ebil. well appreantly the children of those particualr apes some thousand years later developed a phobia for anything that both slivered and flew! meanwhile we were probably cleaning out our dens seeing its all spring break and all, some of us needed a little streaching from watching house marathon and such when suddenly the great great great great great..(insert x greats here) daddy of Disney decided to do a little cave exploring, found one of us sleeping (Of all times!) and decided to be bold (or maybe was drunk i dunno) and threw a rock at the dragon, the dragon was knock out sadly, not by the rock but by hysterically laughing at the futile attempt at the aiming from this particular ape. Course the poor peasent was horrified that he couldnt' throw the rock past his hand decided to grab a bark of a tree, fails in the attempt so grabs some twigs and says he was able to tear off a dragon's heart (at this point the dragon was practically calling his buddies to tell the tale which ended in the great migration resulting in no dragon findings in years) and mr promoted knight Disney was ableto keep his tory and bumbling apes belived him thus the peasent apes beliveds just as somehow Paper defeates a rolling bolder that a knight defeats dragon "whoohoo"! oh how wonderful history is..
i've always wonder. how exactly does wearing metal, and blocking with a metal shield, protect a knight from dragonfire? xD i mean, i could understand if they were air tight sealed suits of armor with inner cooling systems and great heat resistance, but um, they didn't have that stuff back then.
stories rarely are fantastically realistic, especially the older ones I've noticed. One could flip the table though and say "Well the draon isn't real in the first place so if we ignore the rule of thermodynamics here where it suits us we still won't break as much rules as we did when we made the dragon in the first place."
But saying that is for lazy people who doesn't like to think their stories through fully I imagine. ^_^
But saying that is for lazy people who doesn't like to think their stories through fully I imagine. ^_^
Dragons are a metaphor, the upturning of the great and powerful and appealing to the sense of wanting to see the underdog win though the problem is it's become cliche to the point where the 'underdog' automatically ultimately wins by virtue of being the underdog.Still, who would you rather see win? The little guy or the multi-million dollar corporation? People prefer to see triumph against the odds because it gives them a sense that they might succeed too and because it's more interesting to see people overcome obstacles than to see them suffer constant defeat or victory. We're just more interested in a bumpy ride and I think TV Tropes probably has an entry on it already though I've not been reading too much of it lately so I can't say for sure.
Also: what was previously said about the damage to PR to the dragon in the Dark and Middle Ages but again, the dragons of the stories (ie St. George) are metaphorical and represent adversity. The solution is to subvert it; switch the roles. The dragon becomes the victim, the feudal kingdom becomes the powerful oppressor whom the dragon must break the shackles of. Want to subvert it more? Make the knight win but utterly detestable, leaving us to still root for the underdog.
In the fandom, can't say I see the dragon lose that often. Only place I ever see it generally is in vore where it's either to a larger predator or to a smaller one in the name of role reversal (which means the dragon is entirely capable of pulling this trick on the former, too).
Also: what was previously said about the damage to PR to the dragon in the Dark and Middle Ages but again, the dragons of the stories (ie St. George) are metaphorical and represent adversity. The solution is to subvert it; switch the roles. The dragon becomes the victim, the feudal kingdom becomes the powerful oppressor whom the dragon must break the shackles of. Want to subvert it more? Make the knight win but utterly detestable, leaving us to still root for the underdog.
In the fandom, can't say I see the dragon lose that often. Only place I ever see it generally is in vore where it's either to a larger predator or to a smaller one in the name of role reversal (which means the dragon is entirely capable of pulling this trick on the former, too).
First of all, it was pretty neat to see you mention TVtropes, I recently stumbled across the site myself and I thought it was a pretty neat setup. ^^
I did read the description here and from that and some of your comments I think you were talking about this phenomenon more as it applies within the furry fandom than in a classical sense, but as a side note, ignoring inane theories about Christianity or the like, I think the original intention of this trope was meant to be an aversion of sorts. After all, dragons were big, powerful creatures with natural armor and usually magical attributes, like breathing fire.
As far as the application within the fandom, although I can't say I've seen the picture you referenced in the description I did see the one
Twile mentioned (too late I might add, I would have voted for Twile) and I really agree with his sentiments about it. Dragons are the third most popular phenotype according to a survey at Anthrocon 07, so I'd really hope there's not any negative feelings harbored towards them. I think it's more the result of very few art pieces made in a competitive tone that dragons end up in. There's positive dragon artwork [http://www.furaffinity.net/user/dra.....blackwing/]out there[/url]. # them winning on occasion too. On a related note, there's more than one piece that parodies the old "slay the dragon" theme.
Of course, the only way to guarantee an aversion of this sort of thing would be for an artist to draw dragons triumphing more often...like this. ^^
I know it does seem like this kind of thing annoys you sometimes, but I hope can find more scalie work that appeals to you. Until next time, thanks for sharing your work, say yes to nuclear weapons, etc.
I did read the description here and from that and some of your comments I think you were talking about this phenomenon more as it applies within the furry fandom than in a classical sense, but as a side note, ignoring inane theories about Christianity or the like, I think the original intention of this trope was meant to be an aversion of sorts. After all, dragons were big, powerful creatures with natural armor and usually magical attributes, like breathing fire.
As far as the application within the fandom, although I can't say I've seen the picture you referenced in the description I did see the one
Twile mentioned (too late I might add, I would have voted for Twile) and I really agree with his sentiments about it. Dragons are the third most popular phenotype according to a survey at Anthrocon 07, so I'd really hope there's not any negative feelings harbored towards them. I think it's more the result of very few art pieces made in a competitive tone that dragons end up in. There's positive dragon artwork [http://www.furaffinity.net/user/dra.....blackwing/]out there[/url]. # them winning on occasion too. On a related note, there's more than one piece that parodies the old "slay the dragon" theme.Of course, the only way to guarantee an aversion of this sort of thing would be for an artist to draw dragons triumphing more often...like this. ^^
I know it does seem like this kind of thing annoys you sometimes, but I hope can find more scalie work that appeals to you. Until next time, thanks for sharing your work, say yes to nuclear weapons, etc.
Enh, I goofed a bunch of links, too. I was hoping some good scalie work would cheer you up. I can't blame you, there's a lot to feel down about lately. Both inside and outside of the fandom, unfortunately. And there's a lot of times when seems like no one else can see what you can, and a lot of times that's true. No one else can really every have your perspective-that's why I do think it's good that you share things like this, because it's important to get your message out. Things come and go in waves, maybe somebody can start a trend with dragons coming out on top. ^^
I really do hope you feel better, Daniel. I just wish there was more we could do for you. Good luck with everything.
I really do hope you feel better, Daniel. I just wish there was more we could do for you. Good luck with everything.
Hm. I suppose I understand the sentiment here. I'm sorry to hear that you don't see more dragons winning. The whole cliche thing, I'd have to say there's a reason for it. I think what's more bothering you is that dragons aren't put into good guy rolls often enough, not that they don't win. Because it kinda sucks to see the bad guys win, ya know? On the other hand, for you, it sucks to see the dragons always cast as bad guys. I understand that, and.. ya, it does kinda suck.
Good guys should keep winning, uplifting stories are awesome. But there should be /way/ more dragon good guys!
"I shall slay thee, evil dragon! Your evil ways have sealed your fate! Eating the nobleman was your last mistake!"
"Actually, he was taking advantage of the peasants and raping the peasant girls. I was doing you a favor."
"...But he was my /boss/!"
"Oh, in that case... <CHOMP>"
Dragon victory where the dragon was a good guy! A satisfying story!
The guy who said it was cliche wasn't /wrong/, but he had wrong definitions. A dragon winning is... expected, because dragons are so strong, and in a story, the underdog wins because the underdog is what would be most dramatic to win. When you expect the outcome, it makes a story boring. So either you need to pit dragons up against stronger opponents, or make the dramatic moment a twist, where the dragon is the good guy, so the climax isn't the end of the fight, but the beginning of the fight.
I think about storytelling a lot >.> And I read tvtropes almost religiously.
Good guys should keep winning, uplifting stories are awesome. But there should be /way/ more dragon good guys!
"I shall slay thee, evil dragon! Your evil ways have sealed your fate! Eating the nobleman was your last mistake!"
"Actually, he was taking advantage of the peasants and raping the peasant girls. I was doing you a favor."
"...But he was my /boss/!"
"Oh, in that case... <CHOMP>"
Dragon victory where the dragon was a good guy! A satisfying story!
The guy who said it was cliche wasn't /wrong/, but he had wrong definitions. A dragon winning is... expected, because dragons are so strong, and in a story, the underdog wins because the underdog is what would be most dramatic to win. When you expect the outcome, it makes a story boring. So either you need to pit dragons up against stronger opponents, or make the dramatic moment a twist, where the dragon is the good guy, so the climax isn't the end of the fight, but the beginning of the fight.
I think about storytelling a lot >.> And I read tvtropes almost religiously.
Die Frage ist, wo Genre aufhört und Klischee anfängt. Wobei es eigentlich Wurscht ist, wenn man es gut würzt und zubereitet. Solange die Helden, egal ob es die Ritter oder die Drachen oder die Ritter auf Drachen sind, gewinnen, wird es jemanden geben, der von Klischee redet, aber wenn die Geschichte gut durchdacht und gut erzählt ist, könnte mir nichts egaler sein, als ob sie Klischees bedient. Man kann auch aus einer klischeehaften Figur einen faszinierenden Charackter machen, wenn man den Rest der Persönlichkeit hinzufügt und das Klischee zum Nebenaspekt wird - oder zur Parodie.
Drachen siedle ich in meinen Geschichten eigentlich immer relativ neutral an, mal gewinnen sie, mal verlieren sie, und sterben dabei nur sehr selten. Macht einfach mehr Spaß, wenn sie ein paar Jahre oder ein paar Generationen später wieder auftauchen.
Drachen siedle ich in meinen Geschichten eigentlich immer relativ neutral an, mal gewinnen sie, mal verlieren sie, und sterben dabei nur sehr selten. Macht einfach mehr Spaß, wenn sie ein paar Jahre oder ein paar Generationen später wieder auftauchen.
knights are a pain... i always hated the stories where the dragon dies and i think it's stupid. they wouldn't kill the knights if the armored retards would just back off.... and dragon's lose too often to other people. the scale is weighted unfairly and it annoys me. *cheers for the dragons victory*
Statistically speaking, the dragon almost *always* wins. It's just that all those other guys die off screen or before the stories start. I mean, generally speaking, a dragon has to have been around for hundreds of years, wiping out all comers and the odd town or village, before they even become *worth* slaying. Sure, the "hero" wins in the end, but he's the protagonist. It's not much of a story if he loses.
Of course, there was a big pro-dragon backlash during the last century, but trends change much faster nowadays, so we've come round to where the dragon winning is old hat and the "hero" winning is actually impressive and refreshing.
On my part, I regard decent sized dragons as good "masterpiece" kills. It proves you're either fairly powerful or a competent professional who knows his business, but it's not really going to make you stick out in anyone's memory outside of the local area.
Of course, there was a big pro-dragon backlash during the last century, but trends change much faster nowadays, so we've come round to where the dragon winning is old hat and the "hero" winning is actually impressive and refreshing.
On my part, I regard decent sized dragons as good "masterpiece" kills. It proves you're either fairly powerful or a competent professional who knows his business, but it's not really going to make you stick out in anyone's memory outside of the local area.
cliché? Hardly! I'm all in on ya with this one, for me though it is more "fighting the clichés" then "Fighting dragon fatality" it's just been repeated once too many times for me personally. Though I have to say I understand why it is that way considering the dragon was the bad guy(s) in stories and stuff. Something which apparently came from humans fearing snakes who killed people with their bite. But in any case I'm with ya on this "issue".
I'm interested in doing something similar with a werewolf as the wolves also were the bad guys in the old stories, might be a good complement to this one no? ^^
I'm interested in doing something similar with a werewolf as the wolves also were the bad guys in the old stories, might be a good complement to this one no? ^^
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