Short answer; anything at all that goes beyond physical boundaries, anything you can't prove doesn't exist can be true, so why not that? I don't expressly believe you can be, say, a wolf in a human's body, but as I have no proof, anyone who believes it is free to and I won't argue.

Otherkin is a form of spirituality. Spirituality is a form of religion. I don't care and I don't press upon other people's religious beliefs and I ask that they not press theirs on mine.

Can you be born into the wrong body? I think not. Whatever body you are born into is yours and that is how it is and should be. That does not mean that you're comfortable or happy in that body. I’m not saying it is impossible. Should I find a person who was happy to run about on their hands, barking and what have you with little concern for higher reasoning, then I may reconsider. So far, however, all otherkin I have met are indeed QUITE human in my eyes.

Can you be given the spirit of or part of the animal you feel kin to? Personally, I do not believe that humans can have ‘animal’ sprits. I feel that we can have spirits that embody the likeness of animals, however. For instance, I connect strongly with Wolf; I believe that my soul is essentially a unique embodiment of Wolf. I /feel/ like a wolf, with my sense of family, protectiveness of those close… There is also the more feral feelings. The need to be outdoors, the urge to be upon all fours, with my nose in the wind and ears perked. Not that I can do those things truly, but the feeling is there. I am a wolf, but I am indeed quite human. I’m quite happy about it too.

Is your fursona something more than just in your head or a character you created? My fursona is indeed something I created; though it was greatly inspired by a dream I had. I was a feral dragon... From there it grew into an anthro form, then a more feral anthro form. The body, colors, and such still represent parts of me, so "she" is more than just a character. She does not, however, represent the true me (or my therian self, as I’ve come to think of my feral wolf form).

I agree with you. I think it's an Otherkin vs. Therian argument you're going for.

Also, I love your icon.

:]

Oh boy, that'd be an interesting argument to have. xD

NO IT WOULD NOT. It's like watching two children pull eachothers hair, that argument is.

-_-' I'm more of a mix between the two anyways. No defined religon or beliefe really fits me.

Ffff, but it's hilarious! "I'm a dog/wolf/eagle/panther DAMMIT IT AM DON'T YOU DARE SAY IM NOT!!! But people who say they're dragons are just delusional. =/"

FUCK YOU IMMA DRAGON.

*gigglesnort* Funny to watch at times, until you get dragged into the mess... Then not so much.

Aren't we supposed to not make fun of others in this discussion? :/

Sorry, that was an inside joke of ours from con times. =P

No, I never agree with that argument; it's silly if you ask me. I just try to keep my nose out of places it doesn't belong while still upholding my own beliefs!

And thanks, I quite like the icon myself! :3

Well I have always questioned the possibility of being thrown in the wrong body.

I have also considered my kinship with horses (possibly being on on the inside) is a gift to give me better understanding of horses. It also gives me a different outlook on humanity. "how would a horse react in this situation"

But the conclusion is that maybe I am in the wrong body maybe not but for all accounts physically I am human in a human body and that is how the world sees me. The world and society as a whole is not going to make accommodations for me and I should not expect them to

My "fursona" is just something I created to be a face in the online world and the occasional character to use in role plays, drawings and stories.

I'm therian and pagan, so this should be fun.

Can you be born into the wrong body?: I don't think so. I believe that you can be an animal or whatever in a past life, or you could have a different, er, soul/energy type than the body you're born in, but I don't think that makes someone's human body 'wrong'. It certainly feels like I'm in the 'wrong' body at times. I feel the urge to fly, to grab things with my mouth, to strut around like a bird. I feel like I have a beak, my mouth is wrong, wtf is up with those lips, I'm too big, I constantly feel irked because I'm speaking wrong, making sounds from the wrong part of my throat. My hands are freaking awesome, but at the same time I miss wings. Don't even get me started on my feet. So yeah, I feel pretty 'wrong' all the time, but if this was the wrong body for me, I doubt I'd be here right now. =P

Can you be given the spirit of or part of the animal you feel kin to?: Ah shit, what? What's up with the wording to these questions? I guess you can get more connected to a certain animal's energies, and thus gain mental similarities to that animal, but I don't think a 'part' or 'spirit' can be given. I guess I'm just nitpicky with terminology.

Is your fursona something more than just in your head or a character you created?: Acid? Nope. =P

Alright, more things to discuss. Uh, I personally don't get when otherkin or therians get so offended when people don't believe them. I'm sorry, but think about what you're stating. You have the soul of a....dragon? What? I might accept that, but I don't see why other people have to. It sounds crazy. You might BE crazy. Get over it.

I feel like I'm a crow. I don't think I used to be a crow, I just feel like one now. I 'remember' my last life, and I was human (no, I wasn't some Egyptian princess. I was a stupid ass kid that died after running away =P). The closest that I can guess is that the, uh, I guess lube would be the only term I can think of, that separates my being and my body is designed more for a crow than a human. So things feel off. Maybe I was going to be a crow but things suddenly changed, maybe I'm just delusional, I don't know. Don't really care either, I'm happy to be human now. I get a nice comfy home, internet, and thumbs. That's pretty damn nice in my opinion.

I'll do my best to respond to any questions or whatever. Before anyone asks though; I see a psychiatrist, he doesn't think the therianthropy thing is a problem.

Its merely an affectation - unlike established religions, no therians are ever born into a society or culture that believes this, meaning that the 'believers' do so not for social acceptance or because they have been indoctrinated, but rather because its what they want to believe. The key difference is that established religions require a person to be deluded by others, but a freely chosen religion requires self-delusion, making it even more pathetic.

All therians know on some level that they are deluding themselves, that they are only a therian for as long as they enjoy about telling themselves and others that's what they are, and that if they eventually get bored of it or fall out with the therian community or lose all their friends because of it or get back on their medication or whatever, that they'll drop the whole charade and dismiss their earlier behaviour as an embarrassing phase in their life they defend on the basis that they were 'never really serious' about, another delusion that allows them to characterise any reaction by others towards them at the time as 'overreacting', ie. cushioning their bruised ego with a mild martyr complex.

All therians are varying shades of crazy - some much more so than others, and I see no reason to go to any effort persecuting them, but at the same time I will never, ever acknowledge them as anything but yet another sadly delusional pseudo-religion that needs to be stomped and ground under the cold hard boot-heel of science and rational thinking.

"yet another sadly delusional pseudo-religion that needs to be stomped and ground under the cold hard boot-heel of science and rational thinking."

Ouch. Sounds a bit harsh, dude.

Hear hear!

The existence of a 'Soul' in general is highly suspect, since people believe that it's the 'soul' that makes them who they are. The problem with this supposition is that brain damage, whether physical, chemical, or biological, can completely alter who a person is, even though they have the same 'soul'.

Past life regression is hack-psychiatry, as is the concept of 'spirit animals'. The human brain is a wonderfully adaptive tool that can use a great many different ways of interpreting the world around us, and it has to use symbols to do this. Whether that symbol is an animal talking to you in your dreams, or hallucinations telling you how bad of a person you are. Depending on the level of these, it goes from normal dreams at night all the way up to schizophrenia.

The point I disagree with QBF on is not going through the effort to persecute those who are too delusional. If someone is so wrapped up in their fantasy world that it affects their ability to integrate at least on some level with normal society, then something needs to be done about them before they wind up killing someone for accidentally running over their spirit armadillo.

Also: Why are there never any Otherkin that are ugly animals?

"The point I disagree with QBF on is not going through the effort to persecute those who are too delusional."

I just feel that its not a productive enterprise... the world (and this fandom) is full of the self-deluding, and I am really beyond caring enough to do anything about them if they are mostly harmless to myself and others... its their own business if they want to flush their own lives down the toilet.

They can be fun to poke with sticks on occasion. They produce great Lulz.

Though many of them could be productive members of society, it kinda sucks to watch people with a lot of potential just waste it. At the very least, they could serve as test subjects...

Psychiatric tests, the kind where we find out where in the hell this kind of belief comes from so we can figure out how to medicate religion out of society.

True, but the idea that there's nothing after death is too frightening a concept for some people to deal with. The thought that they aren't going to someday just stop existing completely is all that keeps a lot of people from just breaking.

If somebody is going to kill somebody for accidentally running over an animal, then there's a great deal more wrong with them than thinking they're a sparkle fluffy dragon.

I've seen an earwig. =3

Fear of something is not a reason for coddling self-deception, especially when this fear of death can be used to manipulate people's thoughts and beliefs.

If you were scared of spiders and an exterminator started talking about how there'd been massive breeding in the local spider populations, specifically in your area, but he could take care of it for you, you just have to give him money to do it, there's no doubt what your reaction would be.

Religion and Spirituality are man's way of dealing with the idea of the unknown, the 'Big Questions' in life like where do we come from and what happens when we die. Most people just go with what they're taught when they're little. Some people feel the need to be special and unique snowflakes. Therians and Otherkin fall into this last category, though I would honestly say that Therians are purposely self-delusional, and Otherkin have less control over it.

Also: Earwigs Rock! But do they really have a soul? Insects? Really? C'mon...

That logic doesn't work for people that just believe in something but don't do shit about it. I doubt I'd become more productive if I suddenly became atheist. Shit, I'd probably be less because I'd be too busy freaking out all the time to do much.


Where'd you get that distinction between therians and otherkin, cause that's the first I've heard of it. =o

Your beliefs don't hinder you the way that some people's beliefs do. The idea of death is indeed scary, and some people do need a shield to help them insulate themselves against it, but belief that there is something better waiting for you in the next life or the afterlife does little to help you in this life. This is one of the biggest sticking points I have with religions that make claims of a better hereafter. How can you POSSIBLY live this life to the fullest when, no matter how good this life is, where you're going next is a million times better? Answer: You can't. Maybe if more people believed that this is all we had, then more people would be inclined to take care of it.

As for the distinction between Therians and Otherkin, Therians seem to, for the most part, have a more conscious choice about what they feel. Otherkin have an almost compulsive drive towards feeling what they feel. So while both are being delusional, the Otherkin have the worse of it.

Or I could be completely wrong about their feelings, but I'm pretty sure I'm spot-on about their delusions.

I don't think a person can be born into the wrong body insofar as I believe the body is the entirety of what a person (or animal) is. I think the idea of a spirit that's separate from the body is just how people deal with their mortality. The body is mortal, so people invented the idea of a soul so they can believe part of them will last forever. However, a person can be born human and desire to be some other species, just as someone can be born male and desire to be female and vice-versa. The body is what it is, but it still has the capacity to want to be something else. If we had the technology to turn a human into a furry or even a non-anthro animal, then a person with enough money and a willing doctor should be able to go through with it if they want to.

I also don't think people who believe they have an animal spirit should be made fun of or called crazy. Mainstream religions as well as secular philosophies are just as "crazy," since they believe things with no evidence to support them. I'm sure I'm guilty of this as well, I don't claim to have perfect knowledge of the universe or that everything I believe is built on a solid foundation of evidence. I understand the desire to look at something wrong and say "this is wrong," but I think most people who call otherkins crazy and make fun of them aren't doing it in the name of truth and reason, they're doing it for the same reason anyone makes fun of anyone: to feel superior. Of course I'm not immune to that either, saying all this makes me feel superior to those who make fun of others. I doubt I or anyone will ever be immune to that desire. But I want to try and offer whatever criticism I can in a way that won't make other people feel more alone in the world.

My fursona is just a character that represents me online. It used to be a different species even. When I was new to the fandom I read a furry story which I really loved featuring wolves and decided I'd be a wolf, but later on after being involved with the fandom for a while I felt like a fox fit me better.

Am I the only one who sees a connection in being trans-gendered with being trans-species?
I don't personally believe you can be "born in the wrong body" but you still can feel like you are

I do indeed see the connection, and at times its even a compelling argument.
Especially for those of us who have actually met people with severe gender dysphoria, it's very hard to say "they're making it up" because those people genuinely believe that they were born into the wrong body. I believe that this sensation is real.

Unfortunately, I don't believe that an individual can say that he was born into the wrong body when the 'correct' body would have been an animal of some sort. I can't articulate why i feel that way, but the suggestion seems wrong.

http://www.biid.org/

Body Integrity Identity Disorder, or BIID, is a psychological condition in which the individual requests an elective amputation. Individuals with this condition experience the persistent desire to have their body physically match the idealized image they have of themselves.

Sound familiar? Having a desire to have their body match the ideal in their heads? These people remove LIMBS.

Hey, as long as they don't bleed on me. =/

The key difference between the two is that there's nothing in transexuality requiring a soul. Naturally, many transexuals do believe they have a soul of the wrong gender, but this is personal. If you look into gender theory, and even the biology and neuroscience of gender, you'll find that there's already a lot of good evidence toward an answer.

The difference between a male and a female is a chromosome. The mental difference... is at least mostly socially constructed. Secondary sexual characteristics are far from stable, or consistent, between various members of a gender. The way a "woman" or "man" is supposed to behave can be polar opposites between cultures. The dominant understanding in academia is that gender consists of two categories that we almost arbitrarily place characteristics. Considering the prominence of intersex, even genitals can't be reliably male of female.

Considering all of this, there are two very easy scenarios that can be assumed for transexuals, and the two can overlap freely. The first is that the part of the brain responsible for identifying ones' self as male or female is switched differently from what's between their legs, and the other is that socialization has led a person to feel that, due to secondary and/or mental traits, they would fit better as a member of the opposite gender. The reality is likely much more complex.

This is different from the idea of being the wrong species, in that there's nothing in our heads that could lead to this mix-up. Even mentally, it's a flawed idea to think your mental characteristic fit an animal better, as we have a purely anthropomorphic concept of what any given animal is like. We don't know, as Thomas Nagel puts it, to be a bat.

That is actually a very good answer, I never thought of it that way

Excellent points, all. You've done your homework =3

I know a therian... He believes that he experiences personality shifts and loses control of himself.
I do not believe, however. I see it as a very poignant type of escapism.

That's not to say that it couldn't be real (admittedly, such a reality is entirely outside of the realm of our comfortable paradigms), but it's just too far-fetched for me to believe.

I agree, as I said before, I believe that HE believes he is, but I don't believe that it actually is real

The otherkin thing… eh. Even my most mystic of friends think it's a pile of crap.

Obviously I'm not going to believe in it since I don't believe in souls, but I find the whole idea rather odd on a deeper level...

If you do believe in souls, and you believe in a spiritual world, with some sort of authority that places souls in bodies... why do you believe it screws up so badly. This is a very uncomfortable authority to believe in, to me. It's a literal lesser god. Or is there a form of spirituality that includes all the spirits and souls and crap, but disavows gods? It would be interesting... a religious form of anarchy. But that's off topic.

The key problem with this idea is that it can't not be ridiculous to anyone who doesn't already believe in it. Not only does one need to be religious first, but one needs a particular religious structure that allows for the concept to work. Honestly, though, it isn't particularly more crazy than any other religion, so whatever. I just wish I'd stop running into people who off-handedly assume I have to accept their claims.

This is a very well thought out and respectable argument. I agree with your opening statement, finding the idea odd on a deeper level. If we can assume that there were some deeper level to the universe, whereupon a soul could exist, we could also safely assume that this level of the universe bears some similarity to the other levels, else interaction between them would probably make very little sense or be at least extremely difficult. So if we can assume that the levels are similar, we could probably come to an understanding about other levels of reality by a more thorough understanding of our own. And something we don't seem to find in our own is that sort of misfiling occurring. We see both a level of organization that implies intelligence and a level of chaos that implies a lack thereof, but we also see a tendency toward balance.

I don't think the idea is necessarily ridiculous, but that argument falls by the wayside once it comes into light that I'm a religious individual. The only thing that gives me credit is that my spiritual beliefs rely upon the idea that science and the unseen can be reconciled in some way, and that there is nothing which is truly inexplicable. But I do think that if one is going to say something so definitive as calling themselves " (blank) trapped in a (blank)'s body" they should probably consider what exactly it is they're saying....

Can you be born into the wrong body? I think so. I'm transsexual, and therefore believe that I was born into the wrong gender's body. I have no problem extending this to include animals.

I don't know if someone's soul can be wrong for their body, but that is mostly because I do not have a clear view of what a soul is or what it means to have or not have one. If someone believes they were a wolf in a past life or should be a wolf in this life but were instead born as a human, I have no problem letting them believe this. If they, however, feel the need to disturb others or push their beliefs on those around them, I give the community at large permission to put them down.

On that note, I don't think it's right for those who are not otherkin/therians/etc to make fun of or ridicule those who are. I am ridiculed by people who could never understand what it is like to know you are the opposite gender than represented by your body. They cannot comprehend my situation, but instead of accepting me, they reject me. This is not right, in any circumstance.

I say let the otherkin/therians be. It makes them happy to believe what they do, and who are we to deny someone else happiness for personal reasons?

Can you be born into the wrong body?

What ever body we are born is by chance,and if we are not satisfied with our bodies we to have to accept it. That ot if you have enough money get some sort of plastic surgery.


Is your fursona something more than just in your head or a charactor you created
People have many reasons on why they choose their anthro character.I chose mine being a mutt to reflect on my childhood, when my impoverished family could only afford adopting street dogs that would walk by our house.

Can you be born into the wrong body?

This is a very dualistic question, as it assumes that there is a right or wrong body other than your own. You get a human body, regardless of what, if anything, you might have been before having one, and its potential is usually very great. So I think no, you cannot be born into the wrong body, simply because I don't think there would be a wrong body for you if you were born into it. I agree though that one can feel out of place in the body one has. I certainly do.

Can you be given the spirit of or part of the animal you feel kin to?

I really think that to be a matter of prior experience, rather than being given something. We do not posess spirits or souls. We ARE souls. We posess bodies. Many philosophers and theologians over the ages ahve felt it necessary to make this distinction.
Having said that I believe that if it was beneficial for a soul to have occupied a feral body at some point in its experience, and it now occupies a human body while maintaining some of that feral perspective, then the possibility is certainly there. I know many who feel that this is the case, and I myself whether I am delusional or not have many memories of experiences in other bodies long before this one. But the real point is this: It has been concluded that a mind cannot differentiate between memories it has fabricated and memories of actual events. Our minds are so powerful, that they can create new experiences for us, and different perspectives. So even if it's not true that you were in fact something else in a previous life, if you remember it, have experience from it, and it has changed your perspective, does it really matter whether you were or not?

Is your fursona something more than just in your head or a character you created?

In my case, yes. My fursona is an amalgamation of memories, whether real or not, of myself as I have previously existed. The more I remember, the more my perspective grows and changes, the more my character does as well. I represent myself as a large, possibly prehistoric feline, not because I believe I was once a panthera leo atrox, but because I have extremely ancient memories and identify strongly with big, sociable cats. I give myself the traits of a monstrous creature because I remember being something of a monster, and it has changed my perspective drastically; horns and fangs and eerie eyes and the like. I give myself wings, because I have memories of flying and more importantly of falling from grace. I describe myself as artificial because I believe I was originally brought into being unnaturally, and it represents some of the strangeness about my perspectives. I'm a little cold at times, a little ruthless and calculating, but not without the ability to assess things at face value. I identify with and sympathize with the inanimate more often than I do with living things. For whatever reason, be it a supernatural origin or merely a delusion, I feel distinctly 'other' from life on this planet, while I feel distinctly 'like' intelligent artificial life, and I have always felt this way.

BAH! I hardly ever check my FA... so I had no idea that my work was featured!
Thank so so incredibly much for the honor! This is a very unique and interesting idea, I may stay tuned future more topics/features.

Can you be born into the wrong body?

I believe in reincarnation. Yet I think it is too well organised that you can be born into an enitrely wrong body.

You can be born into a body that you subjectively precieve as wrong. Why you are born like this is another question. Might be to see life from a certain perspecive in this reincarnation to learn a certain thing from it. What this thing is differs from person to person. Maybe understanding your current form from an outside perspective, maybe understanding your percieved-as-true form from anoutside perspective, maybe learning how to combine the two. Maybe learning to use it to your advantage or to get an outside evaluation fo what the adavantages of both are. Maybe to percieve your current society from a certain perspective and finding the will to change certain things.

I am no therian or otherkin in this life so I sort of can only guess.

It can stem from memories at former lifes where you were this animal, even when you not even remember this life as such. It can make sense to only give you access to certain memories from certain past lives, to a certain degree and to a certain awareness that it is a memory, to give you a certain perspective in your current life.

Or time was a factor, they had to catch an occasion to place you where you could learn and experience what was planned for your life, where you would have a chance to fulfill your destiny in the way they planned.
And they simply got no better body in time.

Another reason could be a neurological or psychological condition, becoming an otherkin like some otakus believe themselves to be a figure from their manga or game, though there may also be reasons in your kharma and fate why it occurs to you, and why at this time in your life.

Can you be given the spirit of or part of the animal you feel kin to?

Not the spirit or part, but a connection that can feel like it. Could be empathic, spiritual, as an oracle, for instincts and perception or for other reasons and purposes.

Is your fursona something more than just in your head or a charactor you created?

The furry part of my fursonas is rather for pantropy or certain things I like. And the rest, well is from aspects of my personality. But it contains no otherkin or therian parts.

So what prompted me to finally voice my opinion on the Na'vi otherkin deal was Kaa's journal "Furries Are Hypocrites" ( http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/1170554/ ) This is not a hate rant, just one as to how I think furries are more rational than otherkin.

Now, unlike furry, otherkin has had a very specific definition that I can basically state and noone will disagree with it. Otherkin = A person who believes their spirit or soul to be that of a different real of fictional species, and lives their life believing this to be true, including down to it influencing their life decisions (Example, the guy who I saw claiming to want to raise his soon to be born son with Na'vi beliefs and dogma.)

Now, if you claim to be otherkin and that definition is wrong, I don't consider you otherkin, but now to furries. My definition of furry is a hell of a lot more clear and concise than most. I say Furry = A person who associates themselves with a real of fictional animal species. This includes myself, where I associate myself with a great white, blue shark half breed, and as I've explained in my "Why The Hell Am I A Shark" journal ( http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/678854/ ), this comes from my traits of having a vorish appetite / love of the water / love of cool temperatures / highly developed senses of sight and touch / and for being very determined yet unmotivated.

So now my question is, did you notice the difference between them? If not, let me clarify. A furry in my definition REALIZES they are human, and does not do anything other than fantasize about being a fantasy version of their animal. Furries say "I'm LIKE a wolf" where otherkin seriously say "I AM a wolf". I am a homo-sapien, I have ten fingers, two of which are thumbs, I walk with bipedal locomotion and I have light body hair and a lot more hair concentrated on my head. I do not have feathers, scales, or fur, and I do not try to be anything other than a person. Furries realize that their sub-culture is a hobby/fantasy, as where otherkin have confused reality with fantasy

No. You were born as a person. You are a person, and it was by no biological "mistake" that you are.

:I

I do see myself as a red fox by soul but I am openly minded that I maybe coping or some thing but I really feel like that I am a red fox just a regular generic red fox with a black tail with a white tip on it I do believe animals have souls obviously please do not say I'm just some delusional crazy person or something because who are you to judge me or others we are all different no one is the same.

fuk u im boxtrollkin