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i didn't give this more than 10 mins of my time because I have paying customers waiting but
some of y'all dumb
also write me diatribes about how wrong I am if ya want its your hill to die on
some of y'all dumb
also write me diatribes about how wrong I am if ya want its your hill to die on
Category Artwork (Digital) / Comics
Species Unspecified / Any
Size 700 x 700px
File Size 153.7 kB
Then obviously you never have seen this, http://www.foodbeast.com/news/appar.....-hes-adorable/
Now you can die laughing.
Now you can die laughing.
While it's easy to identify it as thinly veiled Nazi shenanigans, it's important to remember the arm band is/was a common denotation of political affiliation. Nazi imagery has certainly marred it and made it a sort of go-to, kneejerk conclusion as to it's symbolism, but it can also refer to the aesthetic of other political groups- such as the communist party. Before it was cool to punch Nazis, rivetheads and other psuedo militia style groups adopted various armbands without having to explain that no, they're not Nazis.
Anyway... Long, sleep deprived rant short: armbands aren't necessarily a Nazi thing.
But fuck em when they are.
Anyway... Long, sleep deprived rant short: armbands aren't necessarily a Nazi thing.
But fuck em when they are.
To be fair, the whole punching thing has pretty much the exact opposite effect of what people would want, so... yeah, I think I'm comfortably justified as an anti-Nazi also aligning myself as anti-punching. If we want to avoid a group of people actually committing the genocide they would like to see happen, maybe making them fear for their lives and giving them an actual reason to feel persecuted is exactly how we put them on the fast-track toward feeling cornered and helpless enough to bust out the guns and start using them.
God forbid someone think I'm taking the side of the Nazis by saying we shouldn't be allowed to punch others for their political views (as absolutely disgusting and indefensible those views may be) but someone has to be the rational one in this bar fight.
God forbid someone think I'm taking the side of the Nazis by saying we shouldn't be allowed to punch others for their political views (as absolutely disgusting and indefensible those views may be) but someone has to be the rational one in this bar fight.
Except that rhetoric, philosophy, and social relations are exactly what defeats Nazis - by preventing its ideas from spreading and by de-converting those who have already accepted its ideals. See Daryl Davis for an example vs the KKK. Violence may force Nazis to capitulate, but that's not the same thing as defeating Nazism at the source: the ideology.
Moreover, this trend of declare-someone-a-nazi-and-punch-them is frankly evil. Firstly because it prevents the process I pointed out above from even having a chance to happen. But also, for many people Nazi has become a catch-all scapegoat term for anyone who holds sufficiently right-wing views, regardless of whether or not they actually are nationalists or white identitarians or anything similar. The Holocaust has been so thoroughly marked in our collective psyche that "Nazi" is a common mental shortcut for "evil". There is a reason why Godwin's Law exists after all. And now using that label and a terribly broad brush a segment of the population has been convicted without trial of being a detriment to society, regardless of individual actions, and not only that but irredeemably so, effectively becoming second class citizens in the eyes of those so gleefully slinging the Nazi label about. And when people are demoted to being irredeemably evil second-class citizens (or even sub-human in the eyes of some extremists) it suddenly becomes morally justified to exert whatever violence local vigilantes - or even civic officials - can be bring to bear against them. I hope I don't have to point out the obvious historical parallels to this kind of behaviour.
The end result - so far, right at this moment - is that nominally good people are being goaded to do unreasoning violence, heedless of who their victim is or whether the violence is justified. Sometimes, admittedly, they may hit their intended mark, but at least as often innocents are being caught in the crossfire.
Moreover, this trend of declare-someone-a-nazi-and-punch-them is frankly evil. Firstly because it prevents the process I pointed out above from even having a chance to happen. But also, for many people Nazi has become a catch-all scapegoat term for anyone who holds sufficiently right-wing views, regardless of whether or not they actually are nationalists or white identitarians or anything similar. The Holocaust has been so thoroughly marked in our collective psyche that "Nazi" is a common mental shortcut for "evil". There is a reason why Godwin's Law exists after all. And now using that label and a terribly broad brush a segment of the population has been convicted without trial of being a detriment to society, regardless of individual actions, and not only that but irredeemably so, effectively becoming second class citizens in the eyes of those so gleefully slinging the Nazi label about. And when people are demoted to being irredeemably evil second-class citizens (or even sub-human in the eyes of some extremists) it suddenly becomes morally justified to exert whatever violence local vigilantes - or even civic officials - can be bring to bear against them. I hope I don't have to point out the obvious historical parallels to this kind of behaviour.
The end result - so far, right at this moment - is that nominally good people are being goaded to do unreasoning violence, heedless of who their victim is or whether the violence is justified. Sometimes, admittedly, they may hit their intended mark, but at least as often innocents are being caught in the crossfire.
Self defense is admirable, but that's not remotely like what you seem to be espousing. Those who officially self-identify as Nazis in the United States number in the hundreds, and the genuine Nazis in our society have no meaningful political options available to them. In California, where I live, the last couple of times there were explicitly pro-Nazi demonstrations the Nazis waved their little flags, said a few chants, and were promptly attacked unprovoked by mobs several times their number. In both cases Nazi demonstrators were seriously injured: stabbed and curb-stomped and such. Clearly they can scream into the wind all they like, but they have no chance of gaining political traction.
But let me be crystal clear since you seem reluctant to: If we are discussing actual, genuine Nazis, you are describing assaulting and probably murdering an entire body of people who present little immediate physical threat to you, your family, or your neighbors unless you deliberately provoke them, and who pose zero political threat to you ever. The fact that they hold an evil view themselves does not change the fact that you are describing becoming their moral equivalent in deed as well as word.
I admit that what I just wrote is rather more strict than I would like, but your statements have given me little latitude in interpretation. I have no idea why, but you seem to have volunteered yourself as an illustration of the process I described in my earlier post. If I have somehow mischaracterized your opinions please correct me.
But let me be crystal clear since you seem reluctant to: If we are discussing actual, genuine Nazis, you are describing assaulting and probably murdering an entire body of people who present little immediate physical threat to you, your family, or your neighbors unless you deliberately provoke them, and who pose zero political threat to you ever. The fact that they hold an evil view themselves does not change the fact that you are describing becoming their moral equivalent in deed as well as word.
I admit that what I just wrote is rather more strict than I would like, but your statements have given me little latitude in interpretation. I have no idea why, but you seem to have volunteered yourself as an illustration of the process I described in my earlier post. If I have somehow mischaracterized your opinions please correct me.
Problem only comes when you get certain types saying that ANYONE who disagrees with them is a Nazi, then yeah, they're basically saying that violence against anyone they disagree with is okay because anyone they disagree with is somehow inhuman scum. But for the most part your comment still works in this context.
Hmm, reading these comments I'm pretty surprised how morally bankrupt everyone is... *snrks*... sorry, couldn't say that with a straight face. As if the furry fandom wasn't morally bankrupt to begin with. =P
I agree that the armband does bring up a lot of controversy and if they're really a group who wanted to help and support furries (like they say on their blog) they would ditch that armband-idea as well as change up the logo, apologise, admit it was a bad, stupid, perhaps even a drunk idea and call it a day but nope! Gotta keep that dang armband despite people obviously freaking out over it and that is both suspicious ánd dumb in my eyes. Still, Opius does have a valid point here... fiztheancient however is talking out of her ass as usual. :3
I agree that the armband does bring up a lot of controversy and if they're really a group who wanted to help and support furries (like they say on their blog) they would ditch that armband-idea as well as change up the logo, apologise, admit it was a bad, stupid, perhaps even a drunk idea and call it a day but nope! Gotta keep that dang armband despite people obviously freaking out over it and that is both suspicious ánd dumb in my eyes. Still, Opius does have a valid point here... fiztheancient however is talking out of her ass as usual. :3
Maybe a bunch of people filled with petplay dabbling, vore-riddled, fursuit-wearing, animal-dildo buying folks shouldn't jump to conclusions concerning aesthetic and kink. If it's okay to jump to the conclusion that every variation of an armband or Hugo Boss uniform means you're a genocidal white supremacist, don't be surprised if that logic is turned back on the bundlefuck of furry kinks and quirks to have everyone smeared as a cavalcade of bestiality-prone, animal abusing dogfuckers.
Assuming things like we see in that image can lead to people getting hurt for no reason beyond someone's misbegotten moral crusade over a tiny smidgen of information. If you're going to set precedence for abuse and ostracizing folks for their hobbies instead of their moral character, you'd better think about what would happen if those same standards were applied to you.
Just sayin'.
Assuming things like we see in that image can lead to people getting hurt for no reason beyond someone's misbegotten moral crusade over a tiny smidgen of information. If you're going to set precedence for abuse and ostracizing folks for their hobbies instead of their moral character, you'd better think about what would happen if those same standards were applied to you.
Just sayin'.
If it's a fetish, it's a hobby. There are people who are into visceral and graphic torture, abusing animals, exploiting children, owning people as property, rape, and murder as fetishes.
But I'm sure it's because they're actually sociopath sadists, animal rapists, pedophiles, human traffickers, rapists, and murderers in waiting. Each and every one.
But I'm sure it's because they're actually sociopath sadists, animal rapists, pedophiles, human traffickers, rapists, and murderers in waiting. Each and every one.
Good for you folks. In this brave, stunning era where people are being assaulted in the streets over people being called 'fascists' and 'racist' willy-nilly, I'm sure that a person disagreeing with social commentary is clearly only doing it in support of an unnamed group they never mentioned. There's no way he could be railing against the sudden spike of nazi-witch hunts which is normalizing assault on folks who believe differently from them.
I defend no despicable nazis. I think we're just both just confused over what the other initially was railing against and now we're just being snarky and salty at each other.
You are referring to specific people. I'm referring to social trends. It's an understandable mistake on both our parts.
You are referring to specific people. I'm referring to social trends. It's an understandable mistake on both our parts.
Every single one? In a society that's demonized nazis and white supremacy for decades, each and every one of those people is an anti-semitic white supremacist? Or have you just been on the twitter too long?
I think you need to stop thinking a microscopic amount of loonies is indicative of an entire fetish community, or else we're all gonna' start getting judged by some awful furries.
I think you need to stop thinking a microscopic amount of loonies is indicative of an entire fetish community, or else we're all gonna' start getting judged by some awful furries.
"a society that's demonized nazis and white supremacy for decades"
Holy shit, dude. Just think about what you wrote there. Gee, I can't believe that the group that executed 6-7 million innocent people is being "demonized", and that isn't even counting all the others who died in the subsequent war they started. Yes, if you purposely associate yourself with such individuals, then YOU will be despised.
You cannot reform a group that literally has extermination of those it dislikes as part of it's modus operandi. And in your other comment about a "witch hunt", you do not understand what that term means. Witches in Salem or earlier times didn't actually turn anyone into newts. The Nazis actually set people on fire, gassed them, and tortured them for twisted experiments, among other things.
tl;dr: If you want to be judged as an individiual, maybe don't align yourself with a group with a horrible history and goal for the world?
Holy shit, dude. Just think about what you wrote there. Gee, I can't believe that the group that executed 6-7 million innocent people is being "demonized", and that isn't even counting all the others who died in the subsequent war they started. Yes, if you purposely associate yourself with such individuals, then YOU will be despised.
You cannot reform a group that literally has extermination of those it dislikes as part of it's modus operandi. And in your other comment about a "witch hunt", you do not understand what that term means. Witches in Salem or earlier times didn't actually turn anyone into newts. The Nazis actually set people on fire, gassed them, and tortured them for twisted experiments, among other things.
tl;dr: If you want to be judged as an individiual, maybe don't align yourself with a group with a horrible history and goal for the world?
Holy shit, dude. Did you never hear about the tens of millions of innocent people that died under communist regimes?
I despise both extremes of the political spectrum. To imply I'm ignorant or supportive of their actions through history is despicable. Nobody is asking for or supports reform of Nazis.
Maybe, just maybe, I'm skeptical that everyone who is branded as a fascist/white supremacist actually IS that, especially in today's climate where there is an outcry for violence, protest, property damage, and character assassination to befall anyone slandered by such a label. It's happening more and more, and we're either expected to believe that there's suddenly white supremacists crawling out from under the woodwork or that someone has an agenda to keep us thinking that there are.
Since the only jackbooted, violent, people I see suppressing dissident opinion and slinging racial epithets en masse are not the white supremacists, I'm less inclined to believe the people supporting folks getting beaten in the streets.
tl;dr How about we stop normalizing witch hunts and political violence before everything escalates into a shitstorm, and we all enjoy our murry purry furfaggotry in peace?
The vast majority of people I see making anti-nazi commentary within this fandom are:
*Black/Latino people
*LGBT+, especially trans people
*Teachers
*Students
*Civil servants
*Dcotors and psychologists
*Scientists of almost every stripe and spot imaginable
All people with the most to lose if a Nazi is in a position of authority. I am disinclined to believe a doctor walks into his office in jackboots, a scientist to publish dogmatism in his journals, a student to write rote memorization of so-called 'leftist' ideals. What they all ask for is a baseline of humanity, of fucking decency.
To deny this end and seek to enjoy murry-purry fandom in non-hostility is to espouse the idea of 'negative peace', which is the most toxic of things to assume in a fandom as open as this.
The line must be drawn here. This far, and no further.
*Black/Latino people
*LGBT+, especially trans people
*Teachers
*Students
*Civil servants
*Dcotors and psychologists
*Scientists of almost every stripe and spot imaginable
All people with the most to lose if a Nazi is in a position of authority. I am disinclined to believe a doctor walks into his office in jackboots, a scientist to publish dogmatism in his journals, a student to write rote memorization of so-called 'leftist' ideals. What they all ask for is a baseline of humanity, of fucking decency.
To deny this end and seek to enjoy murry-purry fandom in non-hostility is to espouse the idea of 'negative peace', which is the most toxic of things to assume in a fandom as open as this.
The line must be drawn here. This far, and no further.
What in the hell makes you think I'm talking about people with uniform fetishes? I'm talking about the leaders of Furry Raiders, particularly Foxler.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comm.....ne_heres_some/
There are links leading to screenshots and sources! But I mean some of them lead to twitter so obviously I'm just drinkin' the Kool-Aid.
Can't have possibly used my critical thinking skills and came to reasonable conclusions, naw just sjw nonsense. Something-something-virtue-signaling, something-something-Sargon-of-Akkad.
Anyway I doubt either of us are going to made headway on the other, so I'm outtie.
https://www.reddit.com/r/Drama/comm.....ne_heres_some/
There are links leading to screenshots and sources! But I mean some of them lead to twitter so obviously I'm just drinkin' the Kool-Aid.
Can't have possibly used my critical thinking skills and came to reasonable conclusions, naw just sjw nonsense. Something-something-virtue-signaling, something-something-Sargon-of-Akkad.
Anyway I doubt either of us are going to made headway on the other, so I'm outtie.
What in the hell makes you think I'm talking about those buggers instead of the ever-creeping nazi hysteria bubbling about in society right now?
There is no mention of that in the cartoon, and I've yet to name support of a single person or entity, instead talked about trends on the rise in the community as a whole.
There is no mention of that in the cartoon, and I've yet to name support of a single person or entity, instead talked about trends on the rise in the community as a whole.
I totally agree with you here, then again we're dealing with furries, the fandom isn't exactly known to do that thing called 'research' or know what 'self-reflection' is even if it was written on their foreheads.
Usually when I see these comments thrown around I usually chalk it up to: "Stupid furs talking out of their ass as usual, time to move on."
I know that their main goal is to help other furs, even held events to raise awereness for cancer and it is true that people are overreacting because of a stupid armband, I totally agree with that as well as the fact that yes, furries here are hypocrite for drawing conclusions based on a logo that was taken out of context HOWEVER: if they did want to suss things they could've just gotten rid of the logo/armband, apologised to everyone who got butthurt, redesign their logo and continue buisiness as usual. Instead they continue to use said armband & logo that are close to what some would associate with the nazi symbol and because of that they don't really get a pass in my book, it was their screw-up and they should own up to it.
Unfair? Unwarranted? Yes, definitely but mistakes are made on both sides of the spectrum is what I'm saying here.
Usually when I see these comments thrown around I usually chalk it up to: "Stupid furs talking out of their ass as usual, time to move on."
I know that their main goal is to help other furs, even held events to raise awereness for cancer and it is true that people are overreacting because of a stupid armband, I totally agree with that as well as the fact that yes, furries here are hypocrite for drawing conclusions based on a logo that was taken out of context HOWEVER: if they did want to suss things they could've just gotten rid of the logo/armband, apologised to everyone who got butthurt, redesign their logo and continue buisiness as usual. Instead they continue to use said armband & logo that are close to what some would associate with the nazi symbol and because of that they don't really get a pass in my book, it was their screw-up and they should own up to it.
Unfair? Unwarranted? Yes, definitely but mistakes are made on both sides of the spectrum is what I'm saying here.
If people were obliged to apologize to everyone they ever offended, we would never get anywhere. If we're going to demonize one symbol like a swastika, why aren't we also demonizing the hammer and sickle that uprooted populations and put tens of millions of people to death?
Either everything is allowed or nothing is. The people who 'decide' which selective things can be as biased and twisted as the people who spawned those awful movements in the first place. The best cure for bad ideas is the blare of the open sunlight.
Either everything is allowed or nothing is. The people who 'decide' which selective things can be as biased and twisted as the people who spawned those awful movements in the first place. The best cure for bad ideas is the blare of the open sunlight.
We demonise the Nazi swastika for a reason: It represents a group of people who carried out a massive atrocity for the sake of national pride, an assumed ethnic superiority, and a hatred for anyone deemed an “other”. That specific swastika is, was, and always will be the logo that represents their ideals and their atrocities. If anyone wears it for any reason other than “I am acting in a play, TV show, or film about Nazis”, they can and should be asked if their wearing the logo indicates an affiliation with Neo-Nazi groups or sympathy for the Nazis and their ideals. (And yes, that includes the uniform fetishists.)
As for the whole “the best cure for bad ideas” bit…yeah, I agree with you on this. The best way to deal with this shit is to confront it, out in the open. To that end, the image Pie posted is a part of that confrontation. If the actual Nazis in the fandom or the people with uniform fetishes or the Furry Raiders feel offended because of this image, well, fuck ’em. You said it yourself: Either everything is allowed — including mockery of those who pull the grade school bullshit shown in Pie’s image — or nothing is.
And I do not advocate for the usage of “Nazi” as a catch-all insult aimed at anyone with whom I have a political disagreement. (A Trump voter, for example, is not necessarily a Nazi.) I reserve that label for people (e.g., Richard Spencer) or groups that openly advocate for Nazi/White supremacist ideals. Those people deserve that label — and the social consequences associated with it. We shame those fuckers for a reason, after all.
If Nazis and White supremacists are in the furry community, how tolerant and accepting should furries be of people who, in the absence of social consequences, would espouse the ideals of Nazism and White supremacy? Hell, why should this community even accomodate those people in any way?
As for the whole “the best cure for bad ideas” bit…yeah, I agree with you on this. The best way to deal with this shit is to confront it, out in the open. To that end, the image Pie posted is a part of that confrontation. If the actual Nazis in the fandom or the people with uniform fetishes or the Furry Raiders feel offended because of this image, well, fuck ’em. You said it yourself: Either everything is allowed — including mockery of those who pull the grade school bullshit shown in Pie’s image — or nothing is.
And I do not advocate for the usage of “Nazi” as a catch-all insult aimed at anyone with whom I have a political disagreement. (A Trump voter, for example, is not necessarily a Nazi.) I reserve that label for people (e.g., Richard Spencer) or groups that openly advocate for Nazi/White supremacist ideals. Those people deserve that label — and the social consequences associated with it. We shame those fuckers for a reason, after all.
If Nazis and White supremacists are in the furry community, how tolerant and accepting should furries be of people who, in the absence of social consequences, would espouse the ideals of Nazism and White supremacy? Hell, why should this community even accomodate those people in any way?
Never said they don't deserve demonizing. I am informed of Nazi atrocities. If you wish to ask them face to face on their views, there's nothing wrong with that. Why would there be?
We're in agreement that it is better and easier to deal with something despicable in the open in the court of public opinion. I'm sure the Raiders can answer for themselves, and I'm not going to put it on my personage to defend them.
I've simply seen more and more of the 'NAZI FURS FUCK OFF' rhetoric popping up, advocating assault and boycott of that aforementioned broad smear, and sought to comment on it since it has 'commentary' in the title.
Knowing the boards you've frequented, you've seen how well furries treat everything from the ABDL, Poz, and bestiality community. There will always be little hovels of hugboxes no matter what opinion/hobby/fetish someone espouses. The only thing I can't condone is violence because mob mentalities are a flawed, careless mechanism to mete out corporal punishment.
The above comments about "ONLY NAZIS SHOULD BE AFRAID OF GETTING PUNCHED" scream of deluded, self-righteous, moral crusading, and they scare me far more than any ominous Nazi bogeyman.
We're in agreement that it is better and easier to deal with something despicable in the open in the court of public opinion. I'm sure the Raiders can answer for themselves, and I'm not going to put it on my personage to defend them.
I've simply seen more and more of the 'NAZI FURS FUCK OFF' rhetoric popping up, advocating assault and boycott of that aforementioned broad smear, and sought to comment on it since it has 'commentary' in the title.
Knowing the boards you've frequented, you've seen how well furries treat everything from the ABDL, Poz, and bestiality community. There will always be little hovels of hugboxes no matter what opinion/hobby/fetish someone espouses. The only thing I can't condone is violence because mob mentalities are a flawed, careless mechanism to mete out corporal punishment.
The above comments about "ONLY NAZIS SHOULD BE AFRAID OF GETTING PUNCHED" scream of deluded, self-righteous, moral crusading, and they scare me far more than any ominous Nazi bogeyman.
You want to know why the phrase “NAZI FURS FUCK OFF” is actually a thing? People actually do pull the “just joking” defense — like the move shown in Pie’s image. How are we supposed to know if the “ironic” racists are actually 4chan-level shitheads instead of actual racists? A person from either group can claim the “just joking” defense (up to a point, anyway). By letting the “ironic” racists and Nazis in and accepting their “just joking” argument at face value, we open the door for actual racists and Nazis and imply that they are as welcome as those whom those racists and Nazis would harm if given the chance.
“NAZI FURS FUCK OFF” is a call to stop tolerating that shit. It is a rallying cry for the community — one that says “Nazi bullshit is not welcome here”, regardless of whether it is real advocacy for Nazism/White supremacy or just a shitty joke. If the racists and Nazis within the fandom (whether real or “ironic”) do not like this newfound courage from the community to address this problem before it gets any worse, those assholes are free to go make FuhrerAffinity and whine about “unfair treatment” as if anyone but them gives a damn.
Nazi furs can and should fuck off; Nazism does not deserve a platform in a community filled with the kind of people that Nazis would have sent to the gas chambers. It deserves only mockery and derision and scorn. Nazi furs deserve to be confronted, shouted down, and ultimately driven back into the shitholes they crawled out of, never to be seen again.
“NAZI FURS FUCK OFF” is a call to stop tolerating that shit. It is a rallying cry for the community — one that says “Nazi bullshit is not welcome here”, regardless of whether it is real advocacy for Nazism/White supremacy or just a shitty joke. If the racists and Nazis within the fandom (whether real or “ironic”) do not like this newfound courage from the community to address this problem before it gets any worse, those assholes are free to go make FuhrerAffinity and whine about “unfair treatment” as if anyone but them gives a damn.
Nazi furs can and should fuck off; Nazism does not deserve a platform in a community filled with the kind of people that Nazis would have sent to the gas chambers. It deserves only mockery and derision and scorn. Nazi furs deserve to be confronted, shouted down, and ultimately driven back into the shitholes they crawled out of, never to be seen again.
It's not like people will declare milk, cartoon frogs, and OK signs have been labeled as symbols of white supremacy in the last year, so clearly we must all agree that this humor is bad. I hear carrots are the next thing to be labeled as a symbol of hate speech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CKxXbD2Jbyg
I can't possibly fathom a method of policing someone's thoughts to the point of sifting through their shitposting that wouldn't lead to corruption, mismanagement, and abuse on a massive scale. I would also be wholly suspicious of people on a moral crusade of any caliber. How do you determine who is a Nazi? A dozen jokes? Some memorabilia? An abysmal gaming handle? Who decides who we kick out of the community? Do we elect them, or is it just a trial-by strawpoll?
Shitty jokes are shitty, but banning things is a matter of policy, not courage. There's nothing courageous about following the current social outrage trends for a groups that host these cons. It's just public relations. The problem is, certain elements will never tire of seeking problematic behavior, and no matter how much bending over backwards we see from giants such as Disney to tiny organizations like the ones who run the circuses of furry conventions, there will always be more outrage, and all they've done is salve over one nick for that year.
And when you get on the whole 'no platforming' thing, you've lost me. Not all Nazi jokes will be firebreathing bashfests, but neither will they all go full "Hitler did nothing wrong". Just like anything, it will be a spectrum that wavers, and there's nothing you can do to stem the tide in the long run.
The issue is that you can't control who is or isn't a Nazi, and you can't control who calls who a Nazi. In this anti-Nazi hysteria at large, you have whole mobs of people both in real life and online that screech and preach as if everything is at threat for a Nazi takeover when it is in fact the least likely thing to happen in what could frankly be called one of the most tolerant communities on the entire internet.
The doomsaying, moral crusading, and general kneejerk moral outrage is doing more harm than good. Such things are great in mild moderate doses. Everything needs an influence in moderation. All this accomplishes is alienating centrists who just view this as yuppie millenial malarkey. It draws eyes to the issues, and as of late it's not the Supremacists who are looking like loons. Hyperbole doesn't help a cause.
I can't possibly fathom a method of policing someone's thoughts to the point of sifting through their shitposting that wouldn't lead to corruption, mismanagement, and abuse on a massive scale. I would also be wholly suspicious of people on a moral crusade of any caliber. How do you determine who is a Nazi? A dozen jokes? Some memorabilia? An abysmal gaming handle? Who decides who we kick out of the community? Do we elect them, or is it just a trial-by strawpoll?
Shitty jokes are shitty, but banning things is a matter of policy, not courage. There's nothing courageous about following the current social outrage trends for a groups that host these cons. It's just public relations. The problem is, certain elements will never tire of seeking problematic behavior, and no matter how much bending over backwards we see from giants such as Disney to tiny organizations like the ones who run the circuses of furry conventions, there will always be more outrage, and all they've done is salve over one nick for that year.
And when you get on the whole 'no platforming' thing, you've lost me. Not all Nazi jokes will be firebreathing bashfests, but neither will they all go full "Hitler did nothing wrong". Just like anything, it will be a spectrum that wavers, and there's nothing you can do to stem the tide in the long run.
The issue is that you can't control who is or isn't a Nazi, and you can't control who calls who a Nazi. In this anti-Nazi hysteria at large, you have whole mobs of people both in real life and online that screech and preach as if everything is at threat for a Nazi takeover when it is in fact the least likely thing to happen in what could frankly be called one of the most tolerant communities on the entire internet.
The doomsaying, moral crusading, and general kneejerk moral outrage is doing more harm than good. Such things are great in mild moderate doses. Everything needs an influence in moderation. All this accomplishes is alienating centrists who just view this as yuppie millenial malarkey. It draws eyes to the issues, and as of late it's not the Supremacists who are looking like loons. Hyperbole doesn't help a cause.
You are correct in that there is no controlling who is or is not a Nazi. But someone who owns a platform can determine whether they want to allow Nazi rhetoric, even if it is a “ironic” form of such rhetoric, on their platform. The United States has the freedom of association written into law for the purpose of preventing forced association. The last time I checked, that means a platform owner can bar certain people (and certain kinds of speech) from that platform and not face legal troubles for it.
A community of people has that same right: If lots of furries do not want the community associated with Nazi rhetoric and imagery (even the “ironic” kind), those furries have a right to disassociate their part of the community from the Nazi furries. We cannot be forced to associate with those whose beliefs and actions we find objectionable. We should not be forced to do such a thing.
The decisions we make, and the actions that follow, are a reflection of who we are. A decision to espouse Nazi rhetoric reflects upon the person who makes that decision, not those who decry such rhetoric. (The same goes for the decision to use a “just joking” defense.) All decisions have consequences; for those who openly associate themselves with Nazi rhetoric, those consequences can include being shunned by much larger groups of people and platforms that do not want to host such rhetoric. That is the way life works.
As I said earlier, I do not use the term “Nazi” in a way that insults people with whom I disagree. I use it to describe people with a set of sociopolitical beliefs (including White supremacist beliefs) that align with those of the Nazis and Adolph Hitler. If my decrying such people alienates anyone, I would hope it would be people who sympathise with the Nazis and their modern-day brethren. Because fuck those assholes.
A community of people has that same right: If lots of furries do not want the community associated with Nazi rhetoric and imagery (even the “ironic” kind), those furries have a right to disassociate their part of the community from the Nazi furries. We cannot be forced to associate with those whose beliefs and actions we find objectionable. We should not be forced to do such a thing.
The decisions we make, and the actions that follow, are a reflection of who we are. A decision to espouse Nazi rhetoric reflects upon the person who makes that decision, not those who decry such rhetoric. (The same goes for the decision to use a “just joking” defense.) All decisions have consequences; for those who openly associate themselves with Nazi rhetoric, those consequences can include being shunned by much larger groups of people and platforms that do not want to host such rhetoric. That is the way life works.
As I said earlier, I do not use the term “Nazi” in a way that insults people with whom I disagree. I use it to describe people with a set of sociopolitical beliefs (including White supremacist beliefs) that align with those of the Nazis and Adolph Hitler. If my decrying such people alienates anyone, I would hope it would be people who sympathise with the Nazis and their modern-day brethren. Because fuck those assholes.
The 'no platforming' thing is great! Until you have people who aren't Nazis lumped into it while being labeled as such, which is happening more and more often with everyone from Yiannopoulos to Sommers once they're usefully labeled as 'tools of the patriarchy/white supremacists/fascist/anti-LGBTQ+ establishment'. Dirty tricks, such as sudden hikes in security costs posed on the speakers thanks to violent protests, are a despicable tactic and are comprehensibly counterproductive. What would have been a talk posted on youtube and circulated around a few folks in that social circle suddenly gets national attention and radicalizes folks in opposition to the protest's original purpose thanks to the protest's patented lies.
A community has that right, but a community is as much a person as a corporation is: Namely, it isn't. The community is as much along the political spectrum, and every single living person within the furry community has been briefed to some extent as to what a shitty movement the Nazis were. You are not forced to associate with people whose beliefs and actions you find objectionable, just as anyone does. Be they John or Jane Doe, be they Ivan or Hans. It won't end there, however. Soon it'll be someone else, another group, another fetish, and then another outrage, because because this is the furry community and the drama never stops.
Does banning a bunch of doofy little bastards LARPing as Nazis actually solve anything? Does it change their mind? Does it stop whatever sentiment spawned their twisted thinking? Does it stop people on the internet from seeking out those holes they find themselves in?
Or is it more likely that it just ends up being good PR?
I understand that you do not use the term in that way, but it is being used that way by useful idiots with agendas in today's society. What you cannot seem to understand is that sticking your head in the sand and saying "Anyone I alienate is a neo-nazi!" doesn't actually make that the reality. People are being actively lumped into that neo-nazi category willy-nilly. Your reasoning has merit, but trying to police language in a never-ending spiral when organizations are throwing harmless internet memes up as symbols of white supremacy won't end well.
A community has that right, but a community is as much a person as a corporation is: Namely, it isn't. The community is as much along the political spectrum, and every single living person within the furry community has been briefed to some extent as to what a shitty movement the Nazis were. You are not forced to associate with people whose beliefs and actions you find objectionable, just as anyone does. Be they John or Jane Doe, be they Ivan or Hans. It won't end there, however. Soon it'll be someone else, another group, another fetish, and then another outrage, because because this is the furry community and the drama never stops.
Does banning a bunch of doofy little bastards LARPing as Nazis actually solve anything? Does it change their mind? Does it stop whatever sentiment spawned their twisted thinking? Does it stop people on the internet from seeking out those holes they find themselves in?
Or is it more likely that it just ends up being good PR?
I understand that you do not use the term in that way, but it is being used that way by useful idiots with agendas in today's society. What you cannot seem to understand is that sticking your head in the sand and saying "Anyone I alienate is a neo-nazi!" doesn't actually make that the reality. People are being actively lumped into that neo-nazi category willy-nilly. Your reasoning has merit, but trying to police language in a never-ending spiral when organizations are throwing harmless internet memes up as symbols of white supremacy won't end well.
If Group A does not want to be associated with Person B because Person B said something they did not approve of, Group A has the right to disassociate. Whether Group A is “right” to disassociate, and whether Person B deserved that fate for whatever they said, is a subjective argument that cannot be solved merely by trying to find some “objective middle ground”.
But Nazi rhetoric deserves policing - as well as any and all possible pushback - for the same reason that sexist or anti-gay rhetoric deserves it: That rhetoric can, has, and will lead to violence and harm against those who are targeted by such rhetoric. Allowing Nazi rhetoric to normalise within a community increases the likelihood of such rhetoric gaining a foothold with more people. Ignoring it will not make it go away; neither will “polite discussions”. It must be associated with harsh consequences and challenged as forcefully as possible.
You ask: “Does banning a bunch of doofy little bastards LARPing as Nazis actually solve anything?” I would say “yes”. It sends a message to other such idiots that the furry community will not tolerate anything that looks like sympathy for or advocacy of Nazi ideals. If those people cannot deal with that message, that is their problem.
And yes, we can go too far in our condemnations and our purity purges. I would never deny this. But how far must we go with in the other direction? To what degree must we tolerate Nazi rhetoric and White supremacists and other such bullshit just so we can avoid the appearance of "going too far"?
But Nazi rhetoric deserves policing - as well as any and all possible pushback - for the same reason that sexist or anti-gay rhetoric deserves it: That rhetoric can, has, and will lead to violence and harm against those who are targeted by such rhetoric. Allowing Nazi rhetoric to normalise within a community increases the likelihood of such rhetoric gaining a foothold with more people. Ignoring it will not make it go away; neither will “polite discussions”. It must be associated with harsh consequences and challenged as forcefully as possible.
You ask: “Does banning a bunch of doofy little bastards LARPing as Nazis actually solve anything?” I would say “yes”. It sends a message to other such idiots that the furry community will not tolerate anything that looks like sympathy for or advocacy of Nazi ideals. If those people cannot deal with that message, that is their problem.
And yes, we can go too far in our condemnations and our purity purges. I would never deny this. But how far must we go with in the other direction? To what degree must we tolerate Nazi rhetoric and White supremacists and other such bullshit just so we can avoid the appearance of "going too far"?
It sends a message that the next batch of trolls will only escalate the matter. That's how the internet works. That's how furries work. Let's just hope that it's more amusing than it is edgy this go 'round.
Group A has the right to do whatever it wants with Group B, but Group C-Z will probably laugh at everyone involved so long as Group A keeps all the other despicable, laughable, riffraff as it keeps trying to police itself to some semblance of 'socially acceptable'. It will never happen, and all they're doing is patting themselves on the back after angry people on the internet blew up things out of proportion. I'm not even referring to anything specific with that vague mess, as that's just how furry drama around cons and gatherings can accurately be described.
It's essentially kicking out the termites when the house is on fire. It's a futile gesture, and that's my main point.
I'm of the mindset that so long as people are behaving within the span of Terms of Service and/or Code of Conduct, there's very little that you can reasonably and reliably do to police opinion. Last year it was the Confederate flag, this year it's Swastikas, and all they've done is given these symbols to the hands of edgy counter-culture twats who will continue to use them at every opportunity because it ruffles the social puritan's feathers.
Turns out a lot of people find it funny, and you can't police laughter. And I have to shake my head and groan aloud at the fact that the two most cringe-worth symbols on the internet are now symbols of free speech. Why? Why did you do this?! What sort of negaverse alternate reality mumbo jumbo balogna have I walked into?
Group A has the right to do whatever it wants with Group B, but Group C-Z will probably laugh at everyone involved so long as Group A keeps all the other despicable, laughable, riffraff as it keeps trying to police itself to some semblance of 'socially acceptable'. It will never happen, and all they're doing is patting themselves on the back after angry people on the internet blew up things out of proportion. I'm not even referring to anything specific with that vague mess, as that's just how furry drama around cons and gatherings can accurately be described.
It's essentially kicking out the termites when the house is on fire. It's a futile gesture, and that's my main point.
I'm of the mindset that so long as people are behaving within the span of Terms of Service and/or Code of Conduct, there's very little that you can reasonably and reliably do to police opinion. Last year it was the Confederate flag, this year it's Swastikas, and all they've done is given these symbols to the hands of edgy counter-culture twats who will continue to use them at every opportunity because it ruffles the social puritan's feathers.
Turns out a lot of people find it funny, and you can't police laughter. And I have to shake my head and groan aloud at the fact that the two most cringe-worth symbols on the internet are now symbols of free speech. Why? Why did you do this?! What sort of negaverse alternate reality mumbo jumbo balogna have I walked into?
Anyone who decides to wave a swastika or a Confederate battle flag (both symbols of active hate for and militant aggression against minority demographics) as a "symbol of free speech" is showing their own ass, not anyone else's. Besides, no one is legally stopping them (at least in the United States) from owning Nazi paraphenalia/Confederate battle flags or expressing sympathy for the Nazis/the Confederacy. The only thing that is stopping them from doing it as openly as they might want to is society itself.
Free speech is not consequence-free. You can have all the opinions you want, but expressing those opinions opens you up to the consequences of that expression, even if those consequences are merely social (e.g., getting kicked off a website). And if your opinions are remarkably similar to Nazi ideology...well, do not be surprised when the Nazi comparisons start cropping up.
Yes, we can go too far with those consequences. Yes, we can sometimes inflict them upon the wrong person(s). But again, I ask: To what degree must we tolerate Nazi rhetoric and White supremacists and other such bullshit just so we can avoid the appearance of "going too far"?
Free speech is not consequence-free. You can have all the opinions you want, but expressing those opinions opens you up to the consequences of that expression, even if those consequences are merely social (e.g., getting kicked off a website). And if your opinions are remarkably similar to Nazi ideology...well, do not be surprised when the Nazi comparisons start cropping up.
Yes, we can go too far with those consequences. Yes, we can sometimes inflict them upon the wrong person(s). But again, I ask: To what degree must we tolerate Nazi rhetoric and White supremacists and other such bullshit just so we can avoid the appearance of "going too far"?
"Either everything is allowed or nothing is."
Nice Fallacy of the Excluded Middle there, bro.
It's being conclusively proven by everything that happened in 2016 that exposing horrible people to sunlight is just giving them an opportunity to move around and exert influence in horrible ways.
And I'm not one to exclude tankies in my criticisms (the Holodomor doesn't get nearly enough pointing out), but the hammer-and-sickle was representative of an experiment gone wrong.
The swastika was a symbol borne of supremacist ideology in the first place. There is a crucial difference. Failing to differentiate them is a grave logical error.
Nice Fallacy of the Excluded Middle there, bro.
It's being conclusively proven by everything that happened in 2016 that exposing horrible people to sunlight is just giving them an opportunity to move around and exert influence in horrible ways.
And I'm not one to exclude tankies in my criticisms (the Holodomor doesn't get nearly enough pointing out), but the hammer-and-sickle was representative of an experiment gone wrong.
The swastika was a symbol borne of supremacist ideology in the first place. There is a crucial difference. Failing to differentiate them is a grave logical error.
If anything, leaks exposing corruption and fraud had the exact opposite effect in 2016. I don't know what you're talking about, but making folks aware of someone's true ideological and political aspirations can only be to the benefit of the voting public.
There is indeed a difference. Nazis killed based on staggeringly despicable racial biases. Communists just happened to kill far, far more people based on the programs and initiatives that the state demanded at the time. The fact that people don't lump them together in the trash bin more often and see both for the autocratic, murderous regimes hijacked by twisted human beings is a grave logical error.
To lump in your above post as well for coherence's sake:
You have described what is often construed as several elements of the democrat voting bloc. As a democrat, it's fairly familiar. What I've also noticed is that it's slowly become popular to call everyone to the right of Marx a Nazi. There are no Nazis in power, and there are none with any sufficient standing to run for power. For the better part of a century we have demonized, ridiculed, and made them the butt of countless jokes for everything from people we dislike to the epitome of evil.
You ask to oppose what is basically a non-issue. Sure, I can denounce Nazis. Fuck 'em. But I can also tell anyone virtue signaling with 2017's moral equivalent of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" to fuck off as well, and that's not to you specifically. It looks and feels good to feel like you're doing the right thing and protecting marginalized people. The issue is that it gains momentum, as would any movement, and in the lack of any actual opponent it just turns into a self-righteous monster that's lashing out at everyone that dares criticize anything it does.
Are BAMN and Antifa a bunch of assholes? Eeyup. Is it because I'm a Nazi? Nope. Will they say that they think I do because I am? Most certainly. What will that entail? God only knows. But it will be done in the name of decency.
Militant ultimatums don't help your cause. They just attract the loonies and alienate everyone else.
There is indeed a difference. Nazis killed based on staggeringly despicable racial biases. Communists just happened to kill far, far more people based on the programs and initiatives that the state demanded at the time. The fact that people don't lump them together in the trash bin more often and see both for the autocratic, murderous regimes hijacked by twisted human beings is a grave logical error.
To lump in your above post as well for coherence's sake:
You have described what is often construed as several elements of the democrat voting bloc. As a democrat, it's fairly familiar. What I've also noticed is that it's slowly become popular to call everyone to the right of Marx a Nazi. There are no Nazis in power, and there are none with any sufficient standing to run for power. For the better part of a century we have demonized, ridiculed, and made them the butt of countless jokes for everything from people we dislike to the epitome of evil.
You ask to oppose what is basically a non-issue. Sure, I can denounce Nazis. Fuck 'em. But I can also tell anyone virtue signaling with 2017's moral equivalent of "THINK OF THE CHILDREN!" to fuck off as well, and that's not to you specifically. It looks and feels good to feel like you're doing the right thing and protecting marginalized people. The issue is that it gains momentum, as would any movement, and in the lack of any actual opponent it just turns into a self-righteous monster that's lashing out at everyone that dares criticize anything it does.
Are BAMN and Antifa a bunch of assholes? Eeyup. Is it because I'm a Nazi? Nope. Will they say that they think I do because I am? Most certainly. What will that entail? God only knows. But it will be done in the name of decency.
Militant ultimatums don't help your cause. They just attract the loonies and alienate everyone else.
"For the better part of a century we have demonized, ridiculed, and made them the butt of countless jokes for everything from people we dislike to the epitome of evil."
Then you have no problem if I continue to ridicule, demonize, and offend them to my dying breath!
Good, I'm so glad we agree on this.
Yes, Communism has killed a lot of fucking people, so has Nazi supremacist ideology, and both of them can be condemned. But unless you missed the part where ever since Reagan got elected everyone remotely to the left of him has been described as a Communist, I find your argument a bit disingenuous.
Rampant nationalism creates Nazis. This was *demonstrable* in the 20s and 30s.
We're experiencing rampant nationalism on a global scale right now. Don't call my reasoning skills flawed when I say we need to tell Nazis to fuck off, vocally and without refrain. What you call 'loonies' I see as the traditionally disenfranchised. We can't see eye-to-eye on this.
Then you have no problem if I continue to ridicule, demonize, and offend them to my dying breath!
Good, I'm so glad we agree on this.
Yes, Communism has killed a lot of fucking people, so has Nazi supremacist ideology, and both of them can be condemned. But unless you missed the part where ever since Reagan got elected everyone remotely to the left of him has been described as a Communist, I find your argument a bit disingenuous.
Rampant nationalism creates Nazis. This was *demonstrable* in the 20s and 30s.
We're experiencing rampant nationalism on a global scale right now. Don't call my reasoning skills flawed when I say we need to tell Nazis to fuck off, vocally and without refrain. What you call 'loonies' I see as the traditionally disenfranchised. We can't see eye-to-eye on this.
I have no qualms with any possible speech you could make concerning anyone, living or dead. This has never been an issue.
Communism has killed approximately between five to ten times as many people, depending on the statistics you find. Curiously enough, I always laughed off whenever I was called a Commie, because it was silly. Thankfully, I didn't have actively working organizations worry about harassing anyone with a whiff of communist taint like they did during the 50's.
We also had 'Rampant Nationalism' during 8 years of Bush that acted, internationally speaking, very similar to how 8 years of Obama looked in regards to policing the world and expanding American interests. There are far, far too many factors at play on the global stage label it 'nationalism' very accurately or honestly. Anti-war, less government control, less meddling in other nations, more transparency in government, and anti-corruption are what most folks voted for when they voted in the current American regime, Brexit, and the issue that remains open with the impending French election. No one is clamoring to install a dictator and foist up internment camps unless you're Turkey and Chechnya, respectively.
I have no desire to insult you, but also do not state that I imply minorities and LGBTQ folks are 'loonies'. To do so is disingenuous.
Militant, loud groups like BAMN and Antifa are the loonies. They are the ones using the support of well-meaning folks and putting violent, destructive action to a hijacked rhetoric. They say they're attacking neo-nazis, but anyone 'nationalist' is a neo-nazi. Anyone nationalist is someone that supports or is indifferent to the current regime, and they're a neo nazi. So on and so forth until they're free to snap at anyone that critiques them or serves to further their goals.
It's a slippery slope, and that's what's dangerous about the current atmosphere.
Communism has killed approximately between five to ten times as many people, depending on the statistics you find. Curiously enough, I always laughed off whenever I was called a Commie, because it was silly. Thankfully, I didn't have actively working organizations worry about harassing anyone with a whiff of communist taint like they did during the 50's.
We also had 'Rampant Nationalism' during 8 years of Bush that acted, internationally speaking, very similar to how 8 years of Obama looked in regards to policing the world and expanding American interests. There are far, far too many factors at play on the global stage label it 'nationalism' very accurately or honestly. Anti-war, less government control, less meddling in other nations, more transparency in government, and anti-corruption are what most folks voted for when they voted in the current American regime, Brexit, and the issue that remains open with the impending French election. No one is clamoring to install a dictator and foist up internment camps unless you're Turkey and Chechnya, respectively.
I have no desire to insult you, but also do not state that I imply minorities and LGBTQ folks are 'loonies'. To do so is disingenuous.
Militant, loud groups like BAMN and Antifa are the loonies. They are the ones using the support of well-meaning folks and putting violent, destructive action to a hijacked rhetoric. They say they're attacking neo-nazis, but anyone 'nationalist' is a neo-nazi. Anyone nationalist is someone that supports or is indifferent to the current regime, and they're a neo nazi. So on and so forth until they're free to snap at anyone that critiques them or serves to further their goals.
It's a slippery slope, and that's what's dangerous about the current atmosphere.
I can't figure out why "Nazis" are even a "thing" in furry-fandom -- other than to note that furry attracts all sort of rather extreme types, be it their politics, lifestyle, practices, etc. I wonder if these goose-stepping wannabes even know the history of Nazi Germany -- beyond what they might have seen in the movies or on TV.
And on top of that is the irony that actual Nazis would have regarded furries -- even "Nazi" furries -- as deviants and would have shipped them off to the gas chambers.
And on top of that is the irony that actual Nazis would have regarded furries -- even "Nazi" furries -- as deviants and would have shipped them off to the gas chambers.
Shit, we even have proof that actual Nazis dislike Nazi furries!
https://twitter.com/MillennialShep/.....49316752220161
https://twitter.com/MillennialShep/.....49316752220161
* Acknowledge that there are be people legitimately enthused by the aesthetics of WWII Germany without espousing the ideologies.
* Try most eloquently to talk out people who actually espouse ethno-nationalism and fascism (Imagine some people are actually capable of changing their minds!) Give them something they might not have considered before.
* Don't try to ban thoughts or clothing. Even the worst people have rights in a democracy. If you don't let them have their expression you play to their martyr complex as minority extremists.
* Hate speech is a fairly nebulous term that is scarcely consistently applied and unless a pattern with violence is proven should be reserved for cases where direct violence has been been encouraged an observed By ANY group.
* Words can accompany violence and/or be a part of threats that should be taken seriously (unlike the immature death threats of prepubescents and immature adults on CoD or the internet (**** off Zoe Quinn!)); but words in of themselves are not violence and the first amendment must be inviolate or we actually step towards a Nazi or Soviet state so to speak
* The white identitarian umbrella is broad and not all of them can properly be called neo-nazis being not fascists. Some can't even be called white-supremacists though they are still delusional and possessed of a victim complex.
I'll denounce evil ideas wherever I see them, but people can't try to control evil thoughts and still preserve a free and just society .
* Try most eloquently to talk out people who actually espouse ethno-nationalism and fascism (Imagine some people are actually capable of changing their minds!) Give them something they might not have considered before.
* Don't try to ban thoughts or clothing. Even the worst people have rights in a democracy. If you don't let them have their expression you play to their martyr complex as minority extremists.
* Hate speech is a fairly nebulous term that is scarcely consistently applied and unless a pattern with violence is proven should be reserved for cases where direct violence has been been encouraged an observed By ANY group.
* Words can accompany violence and/or be a part of threats that should be taken seriously (unlike the immature death threats of prepubescents and immature adults on CoD or the internet (**** off Zoe Quinn!)); but words in of themselves are not violence and the first amendment must be inviolate or we actually step towards a Nazi or Soviet state so to speak
* The white identitarian umbrella is broad and not all of them can properly be called neo-nazis being not fascists. Some can't even be called white-supremacists though they are still delusional and possessed of a victim complex.
I'll denounce evil ideas wherever I see them, but people can't try to control evil thoughts and still preserve a free and just society .
* Yes. Because if I'm not virtue signalling my disdain for Nazis, but rather defending the rights Nazis have a citizens and according to the social construct; and the tyranny of pursuing thougtcrime; then I am unequivocally being sympathetic to their ideas. Fuck their ideas. I hate that defending the inviolability of the First Amendment and the social constructs concordant with it today entails the need to defend scum of the Earth; but the line is "with liberty and justice for all." For All you virtue signalling grand-standers. Words are not violence, violence is fucking violence and bringing cowardly skirmishes to the "Nazis" gives them the moral high ground. Don't give Nazis the moral high ground.
* Just as much? More like more. Its not bullshit. Communists are far more dangerous at present, they have far more political and social capital. They occupy media and the universities. Sympathies are with them oh so much in these days of much class strife. Where are the nazi sympathies, Id say they are limited to the grounds of free speech that they are clinging to to try and gain legitimacy and they are still a joke, they are much scorned scum of Earth. Its not that Nazis aren't a problem, its that you can't police thought and maintain a liberal democracy. So what that Nazis would silence dissent if they achieved all the power, the point is that they DONT have the power; and would the communists do anything different? Stalin? Pol Pot? Their ideas are equally bad, but one has far more reach and black clad cowards attacking unarmed protesters in the street. The current surge in 'Nazi sympathies' owes to the blow back against these societal trends in left wing authoritarianism as Nazis become hangers on to the conservative/libertarian/classic liberal counter culture in the form of the alt-right. Communists are the arch-nemeses of communists and now we have people of all political stripes marching with concern for their rights from peaceful protesters against Trump to disenfranchised conservatives are caught in the middle of their contest of who's best authoritarian asshole.
* Just as much? More like more. Its not bullshit. Communists are far more dangerous at present, they have far more political and social capital. They occupy media and the universities. Sympathies are with them oh so much in these days of much class strife. Where are the nazi sympathies, Id say they are limited to the grounds of free speech that they are clinging to to try and gain legitimacy and they are still a joke, they are much scorned scum of Earth. Its not that Nazis aren't a problem, its that you can't police thought and maintain a liberal democracy. So what that Nazis would silence dissent if they achieved all the power, the point is that they DONT have the power; and would the communists do anything different? Stalin? Pol Pot? Their ideas are equally bad, but one has far more reach and black clad cowards attacking unarmed protesters in the street. The current surge in 'Nazi sympathies' owes to the blow back against these societal trends in left wing authoritarianism as Nazis become hangers on to the conservative/libertarian/classic liberal counter culture in the form of the alt-right. Communists are the arch-nemeses of communists and now we have people of all political stripes marching with concern for their rights from peaceful protesters against Trump to disenfranchised conservatives are caught in the middle of their contest of who's best authoritarian asshole.
Right. You're using a fraudulent and dishonest definition of "Communist" to try to pull away and delegitimize anti-fascism and cast neonazis as victims. Who's trying to police thought? Neonazis want me killed, and they say so. I want them killed, and I'm going to say so. You can defend them with this phony garbage about imaginary Communists, but I know the enemy when I see it, and I have tools to deal with them when they come my way.
Antifa is not legitimate antifascism. If they were their focus would be focusing more on the Middle East more than the West. They have used cowardly masked violence against civilians and civilian property That is something similarly clad fascists were doing en mass 80 years ago and silencing dissent against their narrative.
Do you think I have any illusions about the worst thoughts of these people? As a bisexual and many other freak deviancies aside, hell as an autistic alone would I be on the pyre if these people had power!
That said, YOU CANNOT KILL IDEAS. Trying to hunt down every vestige of Nazism is a delusion that has been carried out in the extreme in their motherland of Germany and rather then letting people mock them in the light, they have been squished in the dark where they have festered and fed heartily on legitimate German citizens concerns about excessive immigration and multicultural delusions to gain real power.
While a similar pantomime has been carried out here in the states, it has been overstated by comparison by alarmists. Much of what we have seen is business as usual partisan bullshit and once the Left wing can muster a legitimate assault against the Trump regime that actually listens to the concerns of Conservatives, then our, to Europe comparably pathetic, white nationalist uprising can be batted off of the coattails of the conservative 'revolution.' YOU CANNOT KILL IDEAS. Most people never fully act out their hatreds and to preemptive strike you are declaring open season on political violence giving the nazifuckwads and their real sympathizers self righteous justification for ramping up their violence in response and they claim their questionable moral high ground because you attacked them first. Thoughts alone DO NOT KILL and calling for a gencoide of Nazis (or really what it would be in practice anyone who conveniently seeming to be as genocides always do) makes you no better than them.
These are REAL fascist marches:
https://rampages.us/hezbollahpartyo.....16-300x192.jpg
http://static3.businessinsider.com/.....ds-are-met.jpg
and so on and so forth
FASCISM IS NOT DOMINATE IN THE WEST!
It is however so in the regions of the world governed by the bloodthirsty ravings of a pedophile warlord.
Only one world religion still has people killed en mass for apostasy, criticism, and political gain.
This is the ideology that is actually oppressing women as much as rabid dipshit feminists think capitalism does.
This is the threat to gays that eclipses every foamy mouthed crook eyed brimstone spewer in the Bible Belt and beyond.
This is the ideology with the same vitriol and more means to power than those comparably pitiful Nazis you're worried about
Do you think I have any illusions about the worst thoughts of these people? As a bisexual and many other freak deviancies aside, hell as an autistic alone would I be on the pyre if these people had power!
That said, YOU CANNOT KILL IDEAS. Trying to hunt down every vestige of Nazism is a delusion that has been carried out in the extreme in their motherland of Germany and rather then letting people mock them in the light, they have been squished in the dark where they have festered and fed heartily on legitimate German citizens concerns about excessive immigration and multicultural delusions to gain real power.
While a similar pantomime has been carried out here in the states, it has been overstated by comparison by alarmists. Much of what we have seen is business as usual partisan bullshit and once the Left wing can muster a legitimate assault against the Trump regime that actually listens to the concerns of Conservatives, then our, to Europe comparably pathetic, white nationalist uprising can be batted off of the coattails of the conservative 'revolution.' YOU CANNOT KILL IDEAS. Most people never fully act out their hatreds and to preemptive strike you are declaring open season on political violence giving the nazifuckwads and their real sympathizers self righteous justification for ramping up their violence in response and they claim their questionable moral high ground because you attacked them first. Thoughts alone DO NOT KILL and calling for a gencoide of Nazis (or really what it would be in practice anyone who conveniently seeming to be as genocides always do) makes you no better than them.
These are REAL fascist marches:
https://rampages.us/hezbollahpartyo.....16-300x192.jpg
http://static3.businessinsider.com/.....ds-are-met.jpg
and so on and so forth
FASCISM IS NOT DOMINATE IN THE WEST!
It is however so in the regions of the world governed by the bloodthirsty ravings of a pedophile warlord.
Only one world religion still has people killed en mass for apostasy, criticism, and political gain.
This is the ideology that is actually oppressing women as much as rabid dipshit feminists think capitalism does.
This is the threat to gays that eclipses every foamy mouthed crook eyed brimstone spewer in the Bible Belt and beyond.
This is the ideology with the same vitriol and more means to power than those comparably pitiful Nazis you're worried about
Yeah, that's called "whataboutism" and it's designed to deflect attention and protect wrongdoing. I am very much opposed to oppression and authoritarianism in the Islamic world, but you're one dumb fuck if you think I'm going to be distracted from what's happening in my own country just because you think you're throwing a slab of beef a continent away. Right-wing authoritarian nationalism (read: fascism) is rising as a major political force in my country, and it needs to be confronted by any and all means. What do you expect me to do about Hezbollah and Hamas, anyway? Tweet about them and leave bad comments on their Facebook pages? You can run interference for fascists all you want -- I'm going to fight them.
Let me apologize a for one part; I let this get away from me by bringing up the whole segue on Islamic fascism. I'm just tired of all the apologia about the Islamic world and I let it slip into this conversation.
However the images of Hamas and Hezbolla still stand to a point that this is the structure of real fascist events.
The last two events that antifa has attacked in Berkley do not qualify. Were there white nationalists there, indeed, but its extremely presumptuous and paranoid to think that all these people are such.
As opposed to it not being paranoid to call Atifa communist terrorists as they have engaged in vandalism and attacking of civilians with improvised weapons and mob tactics as well as having the stated goal of resisting capitalism as well as fascism.
As for how you could do something about the likes of Hezbolla and Hamas, while you could not directly fight them there is always supporting any and all ex-muslim and liberal muslim activists in their struggle to bring about the long overdue Islamic reformation as well as any actions towards getting the government to focus more on Saudi Arabia given how their money flows throughout the East.
Run interference? You are really presumptuous of my intentions there, as everyone in this moral and social panic are overly presumptuous of the thoughts and intentions of strangers. There has definitely been a surge in all forms of white identitarianism, but that has been unfairly tagged onto all the surge in conservatism in general. Antifa and their ilk seem to been on the train of holding conservatism in general with contempt and that contempt is one of the blows that got Trump and Pence elected in the first place. Which while being generally deplorable are not fascist, they have flip flopped so much to tides of opinion, they are consummate politicians in that regard, if highly incompetent in regards to foreign relations.
I'm not conservative, I am a liberal, very much so and I would be criticizing and standing against nazis and fascists and white supremacists with the same fervor they were the ones starting the fights, but they aren't, at least not yet; but with the way Antifa continues to attack people who are simply marching and speaking for a shared solidarity on the First Ammendment, the situation is going to escalate. You won't change any minds by beating people, only create more and more bitter enemies and bring more blood and suffering to the streets. Some will never change but some can change, so can grow out of hate, but many never will if you push them deeper into their ideologies on the defensive. My persistent point is that you CANNOT KILL IDEAS. You can kill the man but his hate will outlive him and his compatriots will exact vengeance and the cycle continues. Blood for blood it continues and no one learns a thing. Fascism has risen for sure, but it does not have the avenues to power here that it has in Europe's current upheaval. Unless one is paranoid enough to consider everyone to the right of center a potential fascist. I'll fight fascists if I actually see them, but stand with a crowd of strangers if I see them being beaten to a pulp by a mob of masked cowards. Five on one who never even raised his fist until fists were rained upon him. Its every bit as disgusting as the people you think you're fighting.
However the images of Hamas and Hezbolla still stand to a point that this is the structure of real fascist events.
The last two events that antifa has attacked in Berkley do not qualify. Were there white nationalists there, indeed, but its extremely presumptuous and paranoid to think that all these people are such.
As opposed to it not being paranoid to call Atifa communist terrorists as they have engaged in vandalism and attacking of civilians with improvised weapons and mob tactics as well as having the stated goal of resisting capitalism as well as fascism.
As for how you could do something about the likes of Hezbolla and Hamas, while you could not directly fight them there is always supporting any and all ex-muslim and liberal muslim activists in their struggle to bring about the long overdue Islamic reformation as well as any actions towards getting the government to focus more on Saudi Arabia given how their money flows throughout the East.
Run interference? You are really presumptuous of my intentions there, as everyone in this moral and social panic are overly presumptuous of the thoughts and intentions of strangers. There has definitely been a surge in all forms of white identitarianism, but that has been unfairly tagged onto all the surge in conservatism in general. Antifa and their ilk seem to been on the train of holding conservatism in general with contempt and that contempt is one of the blows that got Trump and Pence elected in the first place. Which while being generally deplorable are not fascist, they have flip flopped so much to tides of opinion, they are consummate politicians in that regard, if highly incompetent in regards to foreign relations.
I'm not conservative, I am a liberal, very much so and I would be criticizing and standing against nazis and fascists and white supremacists with the same fervor they were the ones starting the fights, but they aren't, at least not yet; but with the way Antifa continues to attack people who are simply marching and speaking for a shared solidarity on the First Ammendment, the situation is going to escalate. You won't change any minds by beating people, only create more and more bitter enemies and bring more blood and suffering to the streets. Some will never change but some can change, so can grow out of hate, but many never will if you push them deeper into their ideologies on the defensive. My persistent point is that you CANNOT KILL IDEAS. You can kill the man but his hate will outlive him and his compatriots will exact vengeance and the cycle continues. Blood for blood it continues and no one learns a thing. Fascism has risen for sure, but it does not have the avenues to power here that it has in Europe's current upheaval. Unless one is paranoid enough to consider everyone to the right of center a potential fascist. I'll fight fascists if I actually see them, but stand with a crowd of strangers if I see them being beaten to a pulp by a mob of masked cowards. Five on one who never even raised his fist until fists were rained upon him. Its every bit as disgusting as the people you think you're fighting.
Wouldn't say you were wrong.
Would just say bad that it is a bad argument.
It seems like it can easily be replaced with many things.
For example:
"see it's an anthropomorphic animal, not a real animal, we're totally not referencing bestiality"
"tee hee"
Or other such things, many such things.
Even then it is a matter of, even if it is a reference, how is it bad, if all it is is a reference?
Would just say bad that it is a bad argument.
It seems like it can easily be replaced with many things.
For example:
"see it's an anthropomorphic animal, not a real animal, we're totally not referencing bestiality"
"tee hee"
Or other such things, many such things.
Even then it is a matter of, even if it is a reference, how is it bad, if all it is is a reference?
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