Very well done, huge kudos for this tutorial.

Thanks I'm glad you like it. It was a bit rough to say things concisely haha.

Let's hope overly sensitive people don't slither in and bitch about erasure/phobia/whatever over straight up anatomical observation lmfao.

I've yet to see a realistic intersex character anywhere, too, now that I think about it ( regarding your mention of intersex body type/secondary sex characteristics. )

Its hard to talk about a "realistic" intersex character since some people can go their whole lives without ever realizing they are intersex, and totally passing as cis. There's just a lot of variation.

I really appreciate your information about intersexed characters/people. I have a character that is intersexed but keep it more of a private thing since many ppl view it as a sexual fantasy of sorts.

And your totally​ right. Being intersexed is as common as red hair. It is believed that many individuals in the male prison system are actually intersexed.

Is being intersex really as common as red hair? That's interesting, do you have an article or something where it said that? I never realized that, it really puts it into perspective. Anyway, I'm sure there are way better resources online than me haha, I fell like I just have beginner-level knowledge myself.

When I say realistic, I mean basing their characters after real observed intersex instances. Nowadays, people are using 'intersex' as a way to almost avoid using the term 'cuntboy', since the character certainly isn't trans in the sense that they're male in every aspect except they have female genitalia, or they basically are using an alt. form of 'herm' with the whole 'has a penis, but also has a fully formed, fully functional vagina but no testes.' I don't know, I'm just speaking from things I've personally observed. I feel like there are a LOT of people that fetishize trans people, intersex people, 'cuntboys', 'dickgirls' and 'herms', but are in denial about it and have to mask it by using 'acceptable', sensitive terms and stressing the character's gender identity while advising others against mislabeling them.

( p.s I'm not using the words 'cuntboys' and 'dickgirls' as intentionally derogatory terms toward real people. I'm talking about the fictional fetish sex identity where there is literally no indicator of the character being trans or intersex, they're literally just men with vaginas and ovaries/uteri and women with penises and testes. )

Um, I guess I should also say that if anyone wants to call me out for using less than optimal language or giving out faulty information, that I'm open to that within reason. I dont want people to think I'm not receptive to criticism. Like I said in the description, I'm definitely not an expert, though there comes a point when too many addendums and exceptions just gives you a scatterplot of data points (thats not a very precise metaphor but hopefully it comes across)

It's nice to see the part 2 o/

(:

I really like how you shaded the slim ones so that the bone structure would shine through a bit. Your tutorials are always really nice, i like them a lot!

Thank you. Yeah "bony landmarks" are really helpful when drawing, esp for thinner body types. For instance the pelvis and the femur both make changes in the silhouette of the hips, so if you don't pay attention to them your figure can end up looking plasticy like a barbie doll.

Also you do sculptures? Woah! cool

I will pay attention to that! Hips are tricky little bastards

And thank you! c: Your tutorials are useful for sculpting too

Oh really they are? That's wonderful to hear :)

I think you do a pretty good job already from what I can see (its a bit hard to see details without a closeup picture of that area or seeing the sculpture in person) and its not really noticeable for figures that have clothes on usually.

However! If you wanna read further about this particular subject, check out doxy's tut if you haven't already: http://fav.me/d7fjz2q

Ha! I had that tutorial saved already :D Its great, thank you

Oh hey, really great job noting that sex =/= gender, but I think the words you're looking for to refer to sex are DMAB and DFAB (designated male/female at birth), since using the same words for sex and gender kind of defeats the purpose of making attempts to separate them, and- for example- a trans woman doesn't have a "male body", she's female, but stating that she was designated male at birth accurately conveys that she has "masculine" bone structure (unless she started estrogen before puberty). There really needs to be actual, concrete terms for sexes other than using the assigned gender, though, because this doesn't accurately cover body changes made during sex transitioning. I guess the best thing to do until sexes have their own terms would be to put a blurb stating that hormone therapy (and hormone-affecting disorders and such, like PCOS) can cause some secondary sex characreristics to change, namely fat distribution, but not bone structure (unless hormone differences begin before puberty). Things like acne and voice and such are also affected but for a sex difference tutorial those aren't a big deal at all. I wish it were easier than that without being transphobic, tbh, I've tried to think of various solutions in the past, but using the terms male and female for sex is definitely not good, but we're reliant on them for now as a reference point, so using the terms DMAB and DFAB avoids misgendering while still conveying what the individual's sex is (not considering transition which is a separate factor; seems that birth sex + transition/hormone imbalance = sex for lack of better terms).

(Please don't reply unless you're the artist, I'm not picking a fight -at all-, I know that they did their best with the knowledge they had and I'm just adding to it! ;w;)

Sorry I didn't want to use DMAB and DFAB since many people aren't familiar with them. Additionally, you can be for instance DMAB and still have an intersex body. I understand what you are saying though. Unfortunately English often ends up ambiguous. In the science community, "male" and "female" are still accepted terms for referring to primary and secondary sexual characteristics AFAIK, so that's why I use them here.

I actually did mention hormone therapy, though I suppose it could have been more explicit. I feel like that would almost deserve its own topic page, but I don't feel educated enough on the subject to do it myself currently.

Ah sorry, one more thing. One other reason why I chose to avoid DFAB/DMAB is actually because body appearance varies a lot. Someone can be DMAB, have XY chromosomes, have a penis, and identify as male... so completely cis male right... and still have "feminine" appearance. DMAB men can be born with wide hips, slim shoulders, a full butt, etc just because of genetic variation, or environmental conditions during conception/puberty, etc. That person would technically have a feminine (or maybe androgynous) skeleton. So saying a DMAB skeleton in the tutorial wouldn't really work, its a masculine skeleton.

right! just not a "male" skeleton. You could replace male and female with masculine and feminine and it would make sense, as masculine and feminine just mean "typically associated with a certain gender/sex". Male and female don't make sense because, like you said, it varies a hell of a lot and some DMAB people might have a very feminine skeleton and vice versa. And also the "male and female are not sexes they're genders" thing

oh also usually intersex people will opt to use CAMAB and CAFAB (coercively assigned (x) at birth) instead of DGAB. DGAB still applies but CAGAB is used to differentiate the two a lot of the time

thanks for replying, I appreciate it a lot!!

But that is the exact wording I used re: skeleton?

I have never heard of CAMAB/CAFAB terms ever, and I consider myself reasonably well-versed on these type of things compared to a layman. You're getting way into jargon territory, I like trying to avoid jargon when possible unless I'm speaking to that particular group of people who use the jargon. But thank you for the terminology info, its good to know and I appreciate it. I'm not exactly sure what the difference is between designated/assigned (cause i have heard just AMAB/AFAB) and coercively assigned though? Could you elaborate or link resources?

CAMAF/CAFAB refers to the fact that visibly intersex babies are assigned their gender so arbitrarily- and often "corrected" surgically to fit that gender. Instead of just letting the kid be allowed to be different, they're forced to not only have their gender chosen for them, but their sex. This doesn't always happen, but when it doesn't, they're still assigned a gender without any real reason other than personal opinion of the doctors or even the preference of the parents for what gender they want their kid to be. They're forced to fit into the binary sex system and not just the binary gender system from birth, that's the coercion- the assignment doesn't even follow the usual rules, it's just intentionally picking a random gender and sex, or using the phall-o-meter to try to force something into being a regular penis or clitoris when it... isn't...

as far as ppl who aren't visibly intersex I actually don't know how CAGAB is meant to fit in with that narrative, but I usually choose to listen to people in certain groups I'm not part of instead of defaulting to the other side, since they know more about their own self than I do, haha. It might refer to a retroactively improper sex assignment that can't be truly changed because they were raised that way, and legal documentation can't really fix that.


And I meant the actual info under the graphics of Valdís. The skeletons themselves are referred to that way but not the pelvises, fat distribution, etc. which doesn't really even make sense considering sex variation and how anyone can have a more masculine or feminine trait in one area regardless of their gender or sex. But it is definitely correct to call such traits masculine or feminine, as they have their own gender/sex associations that create our ideas of masculinity and femininity.

You totally don't have to like, change it, because I get that that would be tiresome, but yeah.

Yes I know a considerable amount about sex reassignment surgeries for babies. OK so it is only used for people who had sex reassignment at birth? So would someone not be both DFAB and CAFAB? And an intersex person without sex reassignment would just be DFAB in that situation? Am I understanding what you are saying? Again, do you have some resources where I can read up on this terminology and how its used? (I'm also curious about the etymology, but I don't expect you to have sources on that.)

Wait... CAGAB? What does that stand for, you never mentioned that.

Anyway anywhere where I used male/female (I am pretty sure, I might have missed some) I wasn't talking about a person but a concept. Like I said before, in the scientific community male/female has a specific meaning. So if you are talking about a secondary sex characteristic it is "male" or "female" trait, but anyone can have it. So for instance, if a male grows breasts due to environmental factors, he would have a female secondary sex trait, but would still be male (or intersex, I'm not 100% sure how that is offically called, have always meant to look it up). If the terminology has changed recently, or I misunderstood this terminology, I'd appreciate some links so I can read up on it.

I just don't want it to be confusing to readers.

excuse me, i believe i should say specifically lactation