Bullet maker, maybe?

Oops... Sorry. I forgot to mention that it is a POWDER MEASURE. My bad.

Ah. That was going to be my next guess.

My real question is if it really IS a Winchester Firearms piece.

i mean for the record with how nice that is it wasnt handed to a low-man on the totem pole... i am thinking it might have been a cavalry piece or a generals piece

Well, the lanyard ring would mean that it was probably carried by a horseman, normally. The scrimshaw work (this is a punch type work), isn't poorly done. I don't know about being a general's piece, but I suppose anything is possible. You have to use deduction with this stuff. I am pretty sure it was an officer's item in any event... if it isn't a clever reproduction or fantasy piece. It even has tinned joints and fill lead in the spout. If it is a fake, they deserved to fool me.

if thats a fake they didnt cut corners haha im on a search for anything on this

If you can find me a comp on this, I'll make you some Photoshop art.

yeah also i was reading some comments that does look more like 55

Looking at the quality of the workmanship, I'm guessing you've got a "One of a kind" powder measure made by a machinist-soldier in the field. I'm really not a historic firearms expert either, but the object does have a nice "Hand built" look reflecting the Civil War Period. I did a Google search shortly after reading this entry, and all I found was images of the Brass, bulb like powder measures of the time. Nothing as nice as this.

I could consult with a couple "Experts" I know who live around here though.

If you would consult your "experts", I would appreciate it. It is too well made to be field made. The joints are tinned and there is lead fill in the spout. The spring-loaded measure mechanism would be too difficult to make.

Looks like a home-made powder measure of sorts using a large cartridge thats been tapered down to fit into that measure socket, .50-90 sharps perhaps? Just seems odd they'd stick a lanyard loop right through the stamps for a commercial product.

That's the part that is messing with my head. The patina matches overall. This definitely isn't a home-made job, though. Perhaps the lanyard ring is upon reflection.

Looks like somthing for a muzzle loader. Black powder maybe

It definitely is a black powder measure. I'm just trying to figure out if it really is a Winchester piece.

Hope you find out what it is dude.

This is really an odd one. Winchester got into the firearms business in 1857 when he bought the Volcanic Arms Company. He refined the line and opened Winchester Repeating Arms in 1866. Neither company made non-cartridge firearms. That said, they certainly might have made supplies for folks with front loaders, and certainly made re-loading supplies. My first thought was that it might be a shot flask, but it looks too small for that (and shot flasks were usually made with a leather body....so that's out.) After further study, I think you might have a very neat re-loading tool-powder measure.

I question if Winchester would have gone to the trouble of having their company name engraved on the top and then obscured the name with the loop on top. My guess is that part was added later. The name is odd too. The name Winchester-Western came about when Winchester bought the Western Cartridge Company (later named Olin, and is still around) some time in the late 20's I believe.

In any case it is an awesome piece. How long is it overall?

Oh, it is definitely a powder measure. It is about 6 inches long, not including the lanyard ring. I suppose it is possible that the cap was added later, but the patina matches the rest of the piece.

So this is interesting. I've seen several older model powder measures but none quite like this. I almost wonder if this was a piece that was purchased by Winchester and retooled. I know that companies like Winchester would buy equipment and weapons when a company went out of business or a manufacturing contract flopped.

It wouldn't explain the 1865 date. I suppose it was possible that Winchester purchased someone's old stock during the Civil War. It has me stumped.

This is absolutely a powder measure. I strongly believe that this is a 'Frankentool', a piece cobbled together from parts of other items as a project. I think you may be a bit off on your dating, however.

For starters, Winchester-Western did not exist as an entity until 1935, four years after Olin bought out Winchester. Honestly, the date on the cone looks more like "Feb -- 1955" to me. What you have in the cap is a metallic cartridge head, probably from a shotgun shell. A 12 gauge shell head will be about 0.886" in diameter; other gauges more or less.

As a collector, you must be familiar with the sort of military leisure work called 'trench art'. I suspect the artist/maker was an enlisted man in one of the World Wars. In 1955, a WWI veteran would be in his mid-to-late fifties, a WWII vet in his late twenties or early thirties. This individual would have regarded this black powder loading tool as a pride and joy item, and have decorated it accordingly. The knurling of the controls is nicely done, but clearly cut by hand -- not factory made.

So you don't think I'm some sort of crank, I am a collector of antique and modern firearms, have a Curios and Relics Federal Firearms License and know quite a bit of history of the accoutrements. I'm the guy who spotted the oiler cap for the Borchardt pistol a few years back.

Actually, I'm more of a dealer than a collector. When the local public TV station has their antique fairs, I'm one of their appraisers. I normally do glass, pottery, porcelain, bottles, toys, advertising, and paper goods. I normally don't do "guns and gun advertising" however.

The cap head is 1 1/2" wide and about a 1/16" thick... much too wide for a cartridge head. I am unable to loosen the cap to look inside. I looked at the date again by rephotographing it and blowing it up in Photoshop, and to me, it could go either way, but I'm inclined to agree with you. What had stumped me was that I had thought that Winchester hadn't used the term "Western" until much later, as you said. I will tell you that other than the cap, the body looks production made. I cannot find any measure that looks like this, however.

1 1/2" head diameter? That's about the head size of the Schroeder & Hetzendorfer 2-Bore Metallic Cartridge! Winchester never made them; they're a fairly recent development. I suspect now that what we're seeing may be from an advertising piece; the oversize head would be easy to see displayed on a plaque such as a bullet board, along with samples of cartridges.

The metering valve is beautifully made. I would say it was hand-fabricated by someone who understood its use and was experienced with working in brass. I've never seen one quite like it!

Anyway, it's a great piece. Thank you for sharing it with us!

It's been a real puzzler for me. Although I don't mess with guns/knives as a general rule when I do antiques, I am usually pretty good at research.

"winchester repeating arms company" did make artillery ammo, but all the pictures I see have a headstamp with a ring of much smaller text and the wrong version of the name

something like 37mm hotchkiss would be close to that size of case head, and you can get pics of the style of headstamp looking for 37x120R

I never dealt much with muzzle loaders, but I do believe this is the real deal. You have to remember that even though the civil war was raging, there were places that the war didn't touch. Also - it might possibly be an officer's accoutrements. Swords, for instance; Southern officer's swords were generally custom made in England while the Northern officers were made in the states - nothing fancy for them, purely functional.

You could run the initials against names listed as participating in the war.

V.

I have run the initials through several lists of officers to no avail so far.

It looks like something someone put together in their home... I remember hearing about engines of old that used a shotgun cartridge or similar type of cartridge to actually start the engine, rather than an electric motor. The base of the powder store where it says "Winchester" reminds me of the old brass cased shotgun cartridges.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cof.....engine_starter

You should watch the movie "Flight of the Phoenix". Not the remake, but the original one with Jimmy Stewart. The Koffman cartridges play a pivotal role in the movie. The "cap" is 1 1/2" wide in the powder measure, which would be quite large for a cartridge.

they actually built that airplane for the movie and flew it... it ended crashed and the fellow who built it killed... quite the story.

V.

Oh my gosh =(

I did not know that about the movie. Thanks for sharing.

You're very welcome...

V.

Oh wow I did not consider that. So perhaps it was a Winchester powder measure or store of some kind? That's amazing, what a find! My pastor was selling a few older Mosin Nagant rifles and I was viewing them... They're not expensive rifles by any means... But one had a Sherman tank scribed into the butt stock... You could tell it was done many years ago. To me it stood out... A Russian soldier with an artistic streak decided to draw an American tank on the stock... To me it stood out quite a bit, I'll have to see if he still has that gun I'll buy it for that reason alone!

I guess I'll keep researching. Yes... if the gun is inexpensive, I would get it for the novelty of the art alone. Very cool.

You could try posting it on reddit, in /r/whatisthisthing, a subreddit dedicated to identifying old/random objects and digging up information about them, and the people provide sources for their claims for you. That would probably get you a lot more info on it.

I may try that.

Short of taking it to a professional, it's probably your best bet. The people on that subreddit are amazing at finding information the most obscure and weird things.

I can't find anything on it, but it looks authentic. I believe the ring was added later by the user. I think Winchester would have replaced the screw with a taller headed screw with a hole thru the head and put a ring thru that.

You can look at it the next time you come by.

nice piece whatever it's real or not

I think so. I didn't have to spend a fortune for it, fortunately.

wow you still have this thing. i remember you asking me if i knew anything about it back in 2012.

It's a COOL thing,,, like me!

so far i have gathered its probably a mortar filler

Really? I don't remember running across anything like that.

It looks like an old shot gun loader from the 50's. likely for loading powder or shot.

That's possible I suppose. I'll just keep searching.

From my artillery buds. Its a measure for the powder bag for a smooth bore cannon. It hung on the side of the cannon as a backup in case the pre filled powder bags ran out. Its sounds pretty good....I think it looks perfect for pipe tobacco measuring.

oops... next post.

I can't imagine it would hold enough powder for even one shot. The whole length of the powder container is only about 6", At the widest point, it's about an inch and a half.

Hmmm, it looked bigger in the photos lol. Maybe the doctor brought it?

This is my bad. I forgot to put something in for scale, and I know better.

This is a very interesting piece. Have you gotten any other clues on it?

With the caveat that I'm not any kind of authority on weaponry, etc., but with a bit of knowledge on metalworking and some deduction there are a few things that come to mind.

I'm guessing that this might well be a more modern one-off project of someone who was a decent metal worker, because:

- You , or anyone else here hasn't seen something terribly similar.

- The date looks like 1955 to me.

- The "Winchester Western" mark is more modern.

- The engraving suggests a handmade "Folk" touch.

- The ring soldered over the Winchester script probably would not have been manufactured that way.

- The soldering, knurling and shaping of some of the pieces suggest something that might have been hand crafted as opposed to having been manufactured. I wouldn't be surprised if some of the parts were scrounged or repurposed from other sources in that case as well.

I'm inclined to believe you. Weapons and militaria aren't one of my specialties.

With out reading anything there where "guns" designed to put down horses (and other livestock), it almost looks like one...but then again it doesn't.

It's a Winchester Western Railways brakeman light, best guess. But size, shape, and Winchester would be enough for a weapons look.

Railway started around WW1, so, 1916ish?

Metals is 1940-1950ish. So maybe a gift for retirement. It's the same with the military, the older you are, the more outdated so you retire with a gift that was antique, but functional, when you started.

A pro could probably give you more detailed information.

I'm inclined to think it is 19th century. It is, however a powder measure, for sure, for a black powder muzzle loader. It may have been something someone cobbled together. A true mystery.

Wow ther musket primers.