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Long live the Social Revolution!
Let the million flowers bloom! We shall march upon a road of bones!
Let the million flowers bloom! We shall march upon a road of bones!
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The Labor movement is not essentially socialist, though. It's capitalist, demanding a fair price for one of the essential inputs of economic production. Both investment and labor aspects are necessary, and both are opposed to the zero-sum game of mercantilism and the central-control lunacy of communism/socialism/fascism. Putting management and labor at odds with each other when they should be cooperating is one of the socialist's nastier tactics.
there is so much to unpack here.... I am debating with myself whether I should even bother. but what the heck, I'll take a crack at it.
1.) I did not mean to imply that the Labour Movement was essentially Socialist. I myself am a Socialist (a Democratic Socialist, not a Revolutionary Socialist). the American Labour Movement is, as you said, operating still withing Capitalism, was originated as part of Capitalism, and has never really meant to be at odds with Capitalism. it wasn't until the 60's or 70's that you really start to see the Labour Movement even really start to consider itself associated with Socialism, and even then it wasn't synonymous with Socialism. nor is it today. though they are much closer allies in recent years than they ever were before. still, being with Labour is not the same as being Socialist. all I meant was that May Day is not really about Socialism. it's about the Labour Movement.
2.) the Labour Movement isn't necessarily inherently Capitalist. it was created as a reaction to practices and realities that were taking place in Capitalism. that's a very different thing altogether. the only purpose of the Labour Movement is to improve working conditions, negotiate fair compensation, and provide workers with the power to have dignity and negotiating power within their employee/employer dynamic.
3.) Capitalism encompasses multiple schools of economic theory, and many of those economic schools of thought are absolutely about zero-sum mercantilism. in fact, zero-sum economics exists entirely because of Capitalism.
4.) Communism and Socialism are link, but not the same thing. but don't EVER lump Communism and/or Socialism together with Fascism like that, especially in a direct opposition to Capitalism. that makes it sound like Fascism is some kind of branch of Socialism. it's not. Fascism is kind of nebulous and hard to clearly define, but first of all it's not even an economic ideology. it's most identifiable features are authoritarianism, nationalism, and anti-democratic ideology. it is associated with militarism, glorifying tyranny, and a deep romantic nostalgia for a perceived glorious past. it takes different forms in different cultures or regions, and it can often blend features of Socialism and Capitalism, or even have a Capitalist system for some and a Socialist system for others.
5.) pitting management and labour against eachother is literally the only thing Capitalism does. it's how Capitalism operates. Socialism can, yes, take the form of uniting those workers so that they have the power to actually take on and defeat their bosses. but the divisions already exist within the Capitalist system. they are not fabricated by Socialists. but also, Socialism can also, alternatively, take the form of uniting the workers to have the power to negotiate with their bosses and demand cooperation and equitable partnerships (such as workers automatically receiving shares of the company, or rearranging the management structure so that it is a democratic workplace). there are multiple kinds of Capitalism, and multiple kinds of Socialism.
TL;DR -- learn your shit before you start spouting nonsense.
1.) I did not mean to imply that the Labour Movement was essentially Socialist. I myself am a Socialist (a Democratic Socialist, not a Revolutionary Socialist). the American Labour Movement is, as you said, operating still withing Capitalism, was originated as part of Capitalism, and has never really meant to be at odds with Capitalism. it wasn't until the 60's or 70's that you really start to see the Labour Movement even really start to consider itself associated with Socialism, and even then it wasn't synonymous with Socialism. nor is it today. though they are much closer allies in recent years than they ever were before. still, being with Labour is not the same as being Socialist. all I meant was that May Day is not really about Socialism. it's about the Labour Movement.
2.) the Labour Movement isn't necessarily inherently Capitalist. it was created as a reaction to practices and realities that were taking place in Capitalism. that's a very different thing altogether. the only purpose of the Labour Movement is to improve working conditions, negotiate fair compensation, and provide workers with the power to have dignity and negotiating power within their employee/employer dynamic.
3.) Capitalism encompasses multiple schools of economic theory, and many of those economic schools of thought are absolutely about zero-sum mercantilism. in fact, zero-sum economics exists entirely because of Capitalism.
4.) Communism and Socialism are link, but not the same thing. but don't EVER lump Communism and/or Socialism together with Fascism like that, especially in a direct opposition to Capitalism. that makes it sound like Fascism is some kind of branch of Socialism. it's not. Fascism is kind of nebulous and hard to clearly define, but first of all it's not even an economic ideology. it's most identifiable features are authoritarianism, nationalism, and anti-democratic ideology. it is associated with militarism, glorifying tyranny, and a deep romantic nostalgia for a perceived glorious past. it takes different forms in different cultures or regions, and it can often blend features of Socialism and Capitalism, or even have a Capitalist system for some and a Socialist system for others.
5.) pitting management and labour against eachother is literally the only thing Capitalism does. it's how Capitalism operates. Socialism can, yes, take the form of uniting those workers so that they have the power to actually take on and defeat their bosses. but the divisions already exist within the Capitalist system. they are not fabricated by Socialists. but also, Socialism can also, alternatively, take the form of uniting the workers to have the power to negotiate with their bosses and demand cooperation and equitable partnerships (such as workers automatically receiving shares of the company, or rearranging the management structure so that it is a democratic workplace). there are multiple kinds of Capitalism, and multiple kinds of Socialism.
TL;DR -- learn your shit before you start spouting nonsense.
We're obviously not going to agree on much of this. Fascism is not inherently an economic theory, but in practice it becomes state-run economics and a fairly close match to socialism for its ability to mismanage. Leaving official ownership with the original owners and then ordering them to do whatever the state wants isn't that much different from the state stealing it and giving orders directly to the next layer of management.
As for the rest? What you call capitalism, I call mercantilism or colonialism, and much of the terminology disagreement is inherent in this.
Celebrating Labor? That's cool. But central control of the economy hasn't worked yet anywhere it's been tried. no matter what it's been called.
As for the rest? What you call capitalism, I call mercantilism or colonialism, and much of the terminology disagreement is inherent in this.
Celebrating Labor? That's cool. But central control of the economy hasn't worked yet anywhere it's been tried. no matter what it's been called.
Actually, the Nazis were not state economists, Kythra - IG Farben, Siemens, Krupp and Porsche were all willing collaborators who made a pile of money designing and making Hitler's tanks, weapons and guns and had no qualms about using slave labour. And the Nazi economy most definitely wasn't centrally planned.
They didn't even mobilise into a full war economy until 1942, and even then it was far more inefficient than either the American capitalist or Soviet communist economies. The Americans had the energy of free enterprise, the Soviets had the ruthlessness of centrally planned industry.
The Germans had neither, and it probably cost them the war.
They didn't even mobilise into a full war economy until 1942, and even then it was far more inefficient than either the American capitalist or Soviet communist economies. The Americans had the energy of free enterprise, the Soviets had the ruthlessness of centrally planned industry.
The Germans had neither, and it probably cost them the war.
"stand up, oh victims of oppression, ..."
i don't really believe in ideological solutions,
but preventing government from earning its keep
(lassie fair/trickle down/buyer be ware capitalism) has consistently demonstrated
to do nothing to reduce the burdens of the existence of hierarchy.
what people want is up to them,
what people believe is up to them,
but what aggressiveness creates,
is tyranny not freedom.
what creates freedom is consideration.
so its a cultural issue.
what marx and ingles did, was to identify the problem,
and while their proposed solution may have been flawed,
the problem itself, has by no means gone away.
on a cheerier note, may is also my birthday month.
i still have another year to go, before i will have lived longer then my father did.
and in today's world, all bets are off.
i don't really believe in ideological solutions,
but preventing government from earning its keep
(lassie fair/trickle down/buyer be ware capitalism) has consistently demonstrated
to do nothing to reduce the burdens of the existence of hierarchy.
what people want is up to them,
what people believe is up to them,
but what aggressiveness creates,
is tyranny not freedom.
what creates freedom is consideration.
so its a cultural issue.
what marx and ingles did, was to identify the problem,
and while their proposed solution may have been flawed,
the problem itself, has by no means gone away.
on a cheerier note, may is also my birthday month.
i still have another year to go, before i will have lived longer then my father did.
and in today's world, all bets are off.
Yeah, yeah,"Eight hours for work,
Eight hours for sleep,
Eight hours for what we will!"I studied labor and the economics of politics / politics of economics in school. I was a Union steward in the 1980s.
Socialism is so great, that even the Russians stopped wanting to be Communist in the late '80s. I know, I saw it in... well, I could tell you where I saw it, but then I'd have to kill you. Seriously. I had a DOD Secret clearance when I learned that, and by the fall of the Berlin wall, it was old news to me, and anyone else who had been read in.
So excuse me if I refuse to partake with the red rag and pink flag. I also worked for salary for insurance companies for over 25 years (so, technically a 'manager'). There's nothing more Capitalistic than the U.S. insurance biz.
Eight hours for sleep,
Eight hours for what we will!"I studied labor and the economics of politics / politics of economics in school. I was a Union steward in the 1980s.
Socialism is so great, that even the Russians stopped wanting to be Communist in the late '80s. I know, I saw it in... well, I could tell you where I saw it, but then I'd have to kill you. Seriously. I had a DOD Secret clearance when I learned that, and by the fall of the Berlin wall, it was old news to me, and anyone else who had been read in.
So excuse me if I refuse to partake with the red rag and pink flag. I also worked for salary for insurance companies for over 25 years (so, technically a 'manager'). There's nothing more Capitalistic than the U.S. insurance biz.
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