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At first glance either of these short-barrel shotguns would appear to be any of the many thousands of shotguns that were modified by criminals, bounty hunters, stagecoach rider, sheriffs, marshals and rangers of the Old West to the modern day. However this is rare example where a major firearm manufacturer set out to build such a gun.
In 1922 the Ithaca Gun Company of Ithaca New York began marketing a pistol-sized 20ga shotgun they called the Auto and Burglar gun. It was to remain in production until the 1934 National Firearm Act made this class of weapon difficult for the average citizen to obtain in the US. Production was roughly around 4,500 and it was made in two different models. The Model-A had a curved wooden grip with a large spur at the top; the spur served two functions in assisting the shooter. One it helped spread the force of the recoil over a larger part of the hand, and two it helped keep the gun from sliding or plunging down into the shooter's trigger hand when firing.
Unfortunately the hand spur on the Model-A was complicated to carve and was prone to breakage. Also some people claim that it could snag on clothing if being drawn from a concealed position. In answer to this Ithaca came out with the Model-B. The Model-B employed a more simple, utilitarian grip that made a sharp right bend after coming straight back from the action.
The Auto and Burglar gun was marketed as a form of compact, potent firearm for homeowners, shopkeepers, bank tellers, remember this was in the days before FDIC, and motorist traveling the more undeveloped parts of the US. Just as in the days of highwaymen and coaches, motorists of the early 20th century sometimes faced similar dangers on the back roads of rural area. With little or no means of communication with the outside world you were very often on your own until you returned to civilization. Therefore Ithaca designed a special holster that allow their guns to be attached to the steering column of automobiles from that period.
While producing some rather stiff recoil, the Ithaca Gun Company felt that the Auto and Burglar Gun struck a reasonable balance between portability, firepower, ease of use, and increased hit probability. Also it was felt that the twin gaping 20ga barrels would give a more menacing psychological presence than a basic handgun would do in the hands of the average citizen. From personal experience I can confirm that shotgun barrels become the size of subway tunnels when they are pointed at you!
In 1922 the Ithaca Gun Company of Ithaca New York began marketing a pistol-sized 20ga shotgun they called the Auto and Burglar gun. It was to remain in production until the 1934 National Firearm Act made this class of weapon difficult for the average citizen to obtain in the US. Production was roughly around 4,500 and it was made in two different models. The Model-A had a curved wooden grip with a large spur at the top; the spur served two functions in assisting the shooter. One it helped spread the force of the recoil over a larger part of the hand, and two it helped keep the gun from sliding or plunging down into the shooter's trigger hand when firing.
Unfortunately the hand spur on the Model-A was complicated to carve and was prone to breakage. Also some people claim that it could snag on clothing if being drawn from a concealed position. In answer to this Ithaca came out with the Model-B. The Model-B employed a more simple, utilitarian grip that made a sharp right bend after coming straight back from the action.
The Auto and Burglar gun was marketed as a form of compact, potent firearm for homeowners, shopkeepers, bank tellers, remember this was in the days before FDIC, and motorist traveling the more undeveloped parts of the US. Just as in the days of highwaymen and coaches, motorists of the early 20th century sometimes faced similar dangers on the back roads of rural area. With little or no means of communication with the outside world you were very often on your own until you returned to civilization. Therefore Ithaca designed a special holster that allow their guns to be attached to the steering column of automobiles from that period.
While producing some rather stiff recoil, the Ithaca Gun Company felt that the Auto and Burglar Gun struck a reasonable balance between portability, firepower, ease of use, and increased hit probability. Also it was felt that the twin gaping 20ga barrels would give a more menacing psychological presence than a basic handgun would do in the hands of the average citizen. From personal experience I can confirm that shotgun barrels become the size of subway tunnels when they are pointed at you!
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This gun was always preferable to the 12-gauges in similar configurations. Loaded with 20 gauge #2 goose loads, they were devastating close up. http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2790604 is my newly assembled Remington 870, a bit bigger but a lot easier on the hands.
Yeah, Massad Ayoob said in an article once that the difference between a 12ga and a 20ga was that with a 20ga at normal self-defense ranges the meat is a little less chopped! I've felt for quite awhile that the 20ga has not gotten the respect it deserves as a viable defense round, but when it comes to shotguns its always "Biggest is best!" attitude.
The National Firearm Act (and similar stupidity later on) made these class III weapons, which means a special license is required to buy or possess one, along with a fairly hefty registration fee and a thorough background investigation. Personally, I won't get anything like this (even though I'd like to) because I don't want that particular federal bureaucracy getting my name in their database. If I ever did, though, I'd prefer a 3" or 3 1/2" 12 gauge. Which I would load with #8 bird shot. Every bit as devastating at self defense ranges, but the surgeon gets to call you more inventive names.
I wouldn't count on it. I've seen a few ER pictures where birdshot failed to penetrate past the ribs, though was devastating up until that point. I'd stick with #4 buckshot and nothing less.
And it's not really a license for NFA weapons, but you do have to go through a background check and pay for a $200 stamp to own one, not to mention the complimentary wait you'll also have to go through, and finding a dealer who can do the transfer.
And it's not really a license for NFA weapons, but you do have to go through a background check and pay for a $200 stamp to own one, not to mention the complimentary wait you'll also have to go through, and finding a dealer who can do the transfer.
Fortunately, there's a modern design to serve this need, the Taurus Judge. .410 shot shell or .45 long colt, 5 round cylinder. Gets around NFA by being rifled. Sure, it limits the range of the shot by vastly increasing spread, but....you don't need to plink with it. Grip is very nice in the hand, to boot. I aim to pick one up for myself at some point.
Yeah but the general consensus from several articles I've seem to recommend slug only if one going to use .410 as a defense round. Admittedly that means your smack someone with pretty hefty piece of lead at +P+ velocity so I'm not going to volunteer first for playing ballistic test dummy with it!
Also in some states "Cough! California." you can't own a Taurus Judge, or Thompson Contender shot barrel, or ADC 45/ 410 combo derringer because they consider them to be naughty.
Also in some states "Cough! California." you can't own a Taurus Judge, or Thompson Contender shot barrel, or ADC 45/ 410 combo derringer because they consider them to be naughty.
Oh, of course. I cut at almost 19" to have some extra room to clean it up at about 18.5", and it'll come out about 34" total, still. I'd be really close to getting to 26" to cut behind the pistol grip, and I'd rather not; some creative measuring might be able to take off half an inch or so.
I like my Remington 870 12 Gauge pump, but this is most certainly an interesting development in shotgun design. Too bad they started to get pissed with Short-barreled shotguns (especially ATF).
http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html
A site you may find interesting.
http://www.impactguns.com/store/machineguns.html
A site you may find interesting.
Howdah pistols refer to a very wide range of weapons, many of them run off by artisan makers in India rather than any sort of munitions-standard. It's a very generic catch-all term for large-bore pistol-gripped weapons during the time of the Raj, whether firing buck or ball.
Unless, of course, the handgun is this: http://www.quarry.nildram.co.uk/Webley%20577.jpg
.577 being only slightly smaller than 20-gauge (24 gauge, if memory serves me right). Always had a fondness for the early large-bore designs and the charmingly Victorian "steampunkish" look of British 19th Century technology. If not for the NFA I would dearly love to have a single-barreled water-cooled, Gardner Gun in .577. I've actually got patent drawings of it, and design sheets and photos. There's a company who's started making them, though it'll be a while before I can justify the tens of thousands of dollars for such a toy. Of course, even better would be to update it to belt feed, with enormous canvas belts of fat stubby .577 cartridges! I can see a few of *those* mounted along the railings of an aerial dreadnought in one of your worlds.
.577 being only slightly smaller than 20-gauge (24 gauge, if memory serves me right). Always had a fondness for the early large-bore designs and the charmingly Victorian "steampunkish" look of British 19th Century technology. If not for the NFA I would dearly love to have a single-barreled water-cooled, Gardner Gun in .577. I've actually got patent drawings of it, and design sheets and photos. There's a company who's started making them, though it'll be a while before I can justify the tens of thousands of dollars for such a toy. Of course, even better would be to update it to belt feed, with enormous canvas belts of fat stubby .577 cartridges! I can see a few of *those* mounted along the railings of an aerial dreadnought in one of your worlds.
True, but I thing a 20ga drives it loads at much higher velocity than the .577 Webley did. I was always confused when I read stories from Europeans in the 19th Century talking about Americans and their "big Colt 45's!" since it seemed that many European cartridges were just as large in caliber if not bigger? Then a few years ago I started to get access to some of velocity tables for these old 19th Century rounds and I struck by one thing. In almost every case the .45 Long Colt was at least a 100FPS or more faster than other European big bores. Even the vaunted Webley .455 only averaged about 670FPS, and some like the French 10.4mm loped along at about 490FPS? So I wonder if those authors were referring to "big" they meant larger cases and more velocity than actual bore diameter?
Also I believe you're getting cartridges mixed up with Gardner Gun. Many did fire .577 cartridges but it was the .577 Snider rifle cartridge not the .577 pistol cartridge, and that makes it a whole new ballgame!
Also I believe you're getting cartridges mixed up with Gardner Gun. Many did fire .577 cartridges but it was the .577 Snider rifle cartridge not the .577 pistol cartridge, and that makes it a whole new ballgame!
Well, I just mixed them up "literally" in my post: I actually do mean the .577 Snider for the Gardner, a round I am very familiar with: I own and have shot quite frequently an Enfield-Snider conversion rifle. It's a whole lot of fun to shoot too, that big fat black-powder cartridge makes more of a "POOM!" than a "BANG!" when fired, and aiming...hehehe...lets just say that at longer distances you're more likely to put the sights on the tops of trees behind your target, then the top of the target itself.
I don't remember reading about Gardners firing .577 Snider rounds, just the .577-.450, .45-70 and a couple rare prototypes in .50-70, but the Gardner is a sadly under-documented gun.
Now *here* is just the ticket for Air Pirate Queen Vipera's flag-ship: http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/Hot.....s/resized1.jpg a 37mm Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon! They have one at SARCO, which I got to dicker about with when I worked there, though sadly, did not get to fire. Really gives you a feel for why the Victorian's called any elaborate machine an "engine". Another toy I would love to own, but can't really spare the $80K+ price-tag on.
I don't remember reading about Gardners firing .577 Snider rounds, just the .577-.450, .45-70 and a couple rare prototypes in .50-70, but the Gardner is a sadly under-documented gun.
Now *here* is just the ticket for Air Pirate Queen Vipera's flag-ship: http://www.cannonsuperstore.com/Hot.....s/resized1.jpg a 37mm Hotchkiss Revolving Cannon! They have one at SARCO, which I got to dicker about with when I worked there, though sadly, did not get to fire. Really gives you a feel for why the Victorian's called any elaborate machine an "engine". Another toy I would love to own, but can't really spare the $80K+ price-tag on.
oh, Nice work! It's been awhile since I have seen one, but one of the dealers at the Small Arms Review show in Phoenix in December usually has one or two for $5.00 "any other weapon" transfers available.
I am looking into a modern Serbu Arms copy of the olf Ithica Stakeout, 3 shot concealable 12 gauge.... I think I need one to go with my Krink AK that fits in a backpack.....
I am looking into a modern Serbu Arms copy of the olf Ithica Stakeout, 3 shot concealable 12 gauge.... I think I need one to go with my Krink AK that fits in a backpack.....
It was a case of being in the wrong place at the wrong time in East Los Angeles. One moment I was standing in a gym with my buddies waiting for basketball game to start. We notice five guys come walking in with duffle bags and just assume they are players and we continued on with our conservation. A minute or so later we here the unmistakable sound of shotguns being racked and we turned around and see five twelve gauge shotguns leveled at us. The only thing I remember is one of them saying. "We're going to count to ten." What we were unaware of was the that gym was contested turf between two gangs and one side had decided to come in and trash the joint.
We ran like maniacs and just made to the door when started shooting up the place. Caught a small piece of shot in left arm from a ricochet. Nothing serious just messy. Told my dad I'd caught it on a nail sticking out of fence since I didn't want him to know where I'd been. Unfortunately it is not the only time I've stared at the wrong end of gun.
We ran like maniacs and just made to the door when started shooting up the place. Caught a small piece of shot in left arm from a ricochet. Nothing serious just messy. Told my dad I'd caught it on a nail sticking out of fence since I didn't want him to know where I'd been. Unfortunately it is not the only time I've stared at the wrong end of gun.
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