Ich dachte schon es gabe ne witzige puante, aber ist einz der ernzten Texte von dir.
Ja wenn Gott wirklich jeden vergibt dann ja Kehno oder Satan oder Lucifer verdient sein Mitleid und Vergebung auch.

Bei South Park war das auch so, Satan bat eines Tags Gott um Rat
"Ahhh Satan?! Was ist mit dir los?! Du warst ein Rebel, der gegen mich auferstanden ist und jetzt fragst du mich bei sollchen Sachen um Rat????" :p ok sorry echt guter Text und interresant, hab sowas von dir garnicht erwartet bei den wie du dich oft gegen Gott zu stellen scheinst

Ich habs recht schnell runtergetippt aber ich fand die Idee ganz interessant ^^
Und ja, ich erinnere mich an die Szene ^^

The Devil separated himself willingly from God, knowing the consequences. Mankind, however, was deceived (i.e., there fall wasn't as great). The Devil also had, in theory, the opportunity to see God as He really is - not as the Father, Spirit, or Son aspect, but God the Ineffable. Having seen that and still making the choice to separate himself from that makes his sin incorrigible. Could God forgive the Devil? I don't know... I'm not qualified to make a pronouncement. Having to guess, I'd say that God simply 'knows' the Devil will not change (he is COMPLETELY separated from God, by choice, whereas man always has a piece of God in him [made in His image and all]). The Devil, likely, can't make the choice to repent. The Devil likely knew this from the start.

Human beings know only the Father, Spirit, nd Spirit aspects of the Ineffable; we are ignorant. We know almost nothing about who or what God is. Throughout the Holy Bible, we read mostly of God's concern for man and man' needs. God doesn't say much about Himself (He's all about us). That's the divine concern; complete sympathetic pathos for His creation. The Devil is all about the Devil; he cannot love as we are called to do. Without love, we cannot know/come/return to God. The Devil gave all that away in the name of spiritual liberation (which he now knows is short-lived).

Another theory is that the Devil is a servant of God, possibly one of God's aspects (though this isn't validated by Scripture).

Quote: Another theory is that the Devil is a servant of God, possibly one of God's aspects"

I heard that too and I have to say, if that would be true, that would be the most unthankful job ever ><

And the devil didn't seperate willingly. He WAS seperated just because he said he was made before the human... ^^

Never heard that.

You never read the apocrypts didn't you? The stories they decided not to take into the "holy bible"? BTW. I don't want to be rude. But I wanted to know how you all like the way it was written and not a discussion about god. Because I don't care and it makes people just angry... ><

I find it hard to belive that an omnipotent being can't do something e.g. forgiving... wouldn't that in it self make the concept of his omnipotence collapse? So actually, no matter what you ask about god - you HAVE answer that he can do that indeed - otherwise it would make him simply not omnipotent.

Or would it make Him a tyrant to force the Devil to seek forgiveness?

Well, that wasn't the question - the question was wether or not God could forgive Satan - and the answer MUST be yes. If Satan asked for forgiveness, God shoudl not have any problem forgiving him - the omnipotence, remember? Wether he does or not is a different matter.

I didn't think that was ever a question, considering what I said in my initial post. God can't because there's a won't involved. There's a won't because of matters of pride and principle.
Regardless, I'm no authority on theology so pleae find someone else to talk to. I rarely visit FA, anyhow.

Nontheless: he CAN forgive him - wether he does or not is another thing, but he can do it - he MUST be bale to in order to be consistent with omnipotence.
But then: Can god heat up a coffe so hot, that he himself can't drink it? You see.. there is a lot wrong with this omnipotence concept...

That is wy God is 'ineffable (look it up if you don't know the meaning). Words and analogies such as you've used can't fairly be used to descibe God, place Him in a box, or 'solve' Him. It's difficult to explain and I don't want to lead you astray.

AIM: PurryTheCat That's my AIM if you must discuss.

Well, I don't have to, but to me this sounds just like a cop out - I guess that is historically founded - too many people asked too many questions and thus, god was ineffable.

But, well, such things are one of the reasons why I can't follow such a religion. I just sounds like "first he was in the forests, then in the sky, then above the sky, then suddenly outside of the universe" for the God of the bible that does apply from sky - outside the universe. And then the book that claism to have answers - but ultimately you get to hear: he is ineffable.
nono, I stay with what science discovers - if they one day look through a telesope and see a bearded man making a planet - well, then I might look at such thiungs closer again.

No, hat's God Himself. His manifestations "the Father, Son, Spirit) are the mediums He uses to communicate with us. It's not cop out, but you can't view God as an object - a thing among other things - that you or me can figure out. It's complex and I haven't all the answers.

"the Father, Son, Spirit" so he is shizophrenic just with.,.. three personalities? This is once again such a monstorcity why I don't buy such a religion - or a god.
But believe what you want.

Yeah. That is the great question ^^

hmp.....im atheist so....

Atheism is as intelligible and meaningless as theism, depending how you look at it.

This is jesus...i dont belive on him, but i do belive in one holy,superior creature than me...
(Plz dont reply, gone over this shit before >.<...dont expect from me to reply)

That's agnosticism, which by far is more liberating. *says no more as requested*

Me too. However, what you think about the dialogue? ^^

"But, well, such things are one of the reasons why I can't follow such a religion"

Religion is to God what apples are to oranges. Religion won't save you any more so than wearing nice clothes makes yo a good person. IMHO, the churches have become so divided that they've become closer akin to clubs than to houses of worship - each professing that their version of the truth is more valid than that of the church across the road, their goal being to maintain their animosity between them rather than serving as a unbiased house of Christ. The last place I'd want to take a new Christian is to a church, in fact.

"I just sounds like 'first he was in the forests, then in the sky, then above the sky, then suddenly outside of the universe'"

God is everywhere all the time. We have been made in His image and the world and its laws set by His hands. Man has fallen short of the glory of God. Man has denied Him. Man has set himself against his brother in the name of the God who seeks to unite them Man creates the distance, not God.

"...And then the book that claism to have answers - but ultimately you get to hear: he is ineffable."

Answers to what? The Bible tells us very little about God other than He is God. The Bible doesn't tell us what He's composed of, how He came to be, etc. That's important. The Bible isn't about God. It's about His divine concern for mankind. God maintains His mystery.

"nono, I stay with what science discovers - if they one day look through a telesope and see a bearded man making a planet - well, then I might look at such thiungs closer again."

Again, Gd isn't an object among objects. He isn't a 'being among beings'. Nothing can stand before God. Gos is unsearchable while, simultaneously, He's right here in our midst. That's my belief.

Yes Jesus is our savior. Wow I guess there are people that are like about jesus here and so yeah its really great to find people seeking god or jesus.

I lost him when I read through everything in the bible. well I believe in that Jesus was a very wise guy and tried to make mankind see there is another way than violence... But I don't beleive in a higher spirit than god, nor that Jesus was his son...

yeah i lost him to my friend and yes jesus is real. At first I didn't think that jesus was real at all same as you but when I ask forgiveness and pray when I was crying. He actually die for my sins and so then at that point I know what I lost but I still continue it anyways. I have to remember that Jesus die for my sins in the past and so now I still have it. Also I don't believe there is a higher spirit but as long as you believe that Jesus christ die for our sins than you'll be fine. People nowadays say keep asking forgiveness and so that you can see god. I did but it doesn't work at all. So I just give up on that and just believe Jesus christ die for my sins thats it. The bible is confusing as me too my friend. Not sure why either. :/

"He is unsearchable" Yet it says "search and you will find", "nothing can stand before him" - yet it says that we will stand before him and have to justify ourselves... Internally inconsistent...

And he is not a being under beings? Then why is the term "Elohim" used in places of the bible. Elohim is plural of "eloah" and means "gods". The most simple and logical explanation is taht all that descends dfrom a polytheistic religion, originally - and that is one last remnant.
You know, I don't give much about people brabbeling how to translate a book which no one has a clue how to translate it anway.

You're one of those who takes the Bible literally, reading it as though it were a novel. Within the Bible and its multitude of translations, one will find contradiction after contradiction. The Bible has to be read mytho-poetically that is to say, to read it as myth to find the truth.

"(Hebrew: God), the God of Israel in the Old Testament. A plural of majesty, the term Elohim-though sometimes used for other deities, such as the Moabite god Chemosh, the Sidonian goddess Astarte, and also for other majestic beings such as angels, kings, judges (the Old Testament shofetim), and the Messiah-is usually employed in the Old Testament for the one and only God of Israel, whose personal name was revealed to Moses as YHWH, or Yahweh (q.v.). When referring to Yahweh, elohim very often is accompanied by the article ha-, to mean, in combination, "the God," and sometimes with a further identification Elohim hayyim, meaning "the living God.""

...Yeah. And people have throughout history fashioned gods fr themselves. Aaron the high priest served as foreman of those who molded the golden calf to worship in place f the God who led them from Egypt. Their new god was less demanding, held no mystery, etc.
Another idol is, in fact, the Bible. Too many persons get stuck on it, using it to belittle others, as an excuse to do or not do something, by either taking it literally or making up their own self-serving interpretations. So, yes... I don't get too caught up in the Bible, either. I do, however, love Jesus and serve the Father to the best of my ability. I really don't want to argue or debate this with you because it won't come to anything.

I leave you with these words attributed to Dunninger:

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."

Well, we only CAN take the bible literally - these texts are the only thing taht survived (except teh apocryphes) till today - we have no idea how top interpret them correctly. Taking them literally as what they say is the only reasonable alternative.

Everything else would be changing the word.

elohim - why the plural? It makes no real sense, because at other points the Singular is also used for the same god.

"For those who believe, no explanation is necessary. For those who do not believe, no explanation will suffice."

So waht? We should all be searching for what is true - and not what people believe - and that is not achieved by taking explanations of a 2000 year old book - but by investigation. If your book is true, then we should reach the same conclusion - hoiwever, till now: we did the exact opposite.

God has 'survived', the Bible is merely a window into which we can see a smattering of the love He has for us. The Bible is intended to be ambiguous - it is poetry. It is a song. It is myth. The truth of it is what lies beyond the text. You seem to not see the forest for the trees.

The written word is subject to corruption, misinterpretation, and all sorts of ills. However, we have the breath of God within us - His spirit - His essence. Through that He directs those who serve Him so that they'll not be lead astray. The Bible is an idol for many, many people. Such doesn't seem to be God's will (for, as you say, it is just a 2000 year old book).
Though, again, the Bible does show us that we are the object of God's concern. It reveals that He loves us - enough that He should die on the cross - despire our transgressions against Him. That is the main purpose of the Bible.

Seek and you will find. If your investigation begins and ends with the Bible, you'll be sorely disappointed.

Beyond the text.. right.. so why does this "truth" always change from person to person, even for thos who "look beyond the text"? (which is pretty much just "the truth lies in your imagination" - same thing for me.)

"If your investigation begins and ends with the Bible, you'll be sorely disappointed."

Not according to millions of christians, they will tell you very different things - yet they all have experienced "the holy ghost"...

Nono, to me the thin g is obvious: religion is internally inconsistent - and if it were truth, it would be consistent, even for millions of people.

'nuff said.

The truth is consistent: that God loves us and desires hat all should come to Him. But God is also a personal God and all of us have different paths in life that, if guided by the Spirit, will lead us to the same destination.

What God says to you or expects of you may well be different than what He says or expects of another. Again, God is a personal God.

Also, I'm officially finished with you. I don't come to FA to argue, and arguing won't do anything for either of us. You may reply to this post, but I am finished.

"The truth is consistent: that God loves us and desires hat all should come to Him. But God is also a personal God and all of us have different paths in life that, if guided by the Spirit, will lead us to the same destination."

Ohhh.. how often have I heard that. two words: prove it. And by "prove" I am not talking about some wishywashy belief-stories.

"What God says to you or expects of you may well be different than what He says or expects of another. Again, God is a personal God."
No, that's not what I mean. One ture believer says he's okay with homosexuals, and yet another gets to hear he is not.
And both of them follow their god dearly and willingly - internally inconsistent.

"Also, I'm officially finished with you. I don't come to FA to argue, and arguing won't do anything for either of us. You may reply to this post, but I am finished."

Same.

As to the story/scene, I find it interesting. It leaves one wondering for a moment just who is being tempted? Sure, Jesus in the scene is obviously being tempted by Satan/Kehno.. but at the very last, the roles of tempter and tempted seem to reversed, if only for a moment. And that makes it interesting.

I also am amused by the reproach, "Still calling me names?" which is another reversal, this of the stereotypical good/bad roles.

Yay you are the first who understand the reverse idea behind it. Glad you liked it.