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🚩"Si hace cosas de adulto, que asuma como adulto"/"If you do adult things, take adult responsibilities"🚩
Even had female friends, of fuckin +27 years old saying that when we talked about grooming, without noticing how damaging that phrase can be. Again, because it is normalized in Latin America, I've heard that phrase in Chile, in Peru, from Argentina's, Costa Rica's, Venezuela's and Mexico's people. Enabling cases of grooming, because thanks to that phrase (and not only that one) they convince grooming victims to just assume "it was a normal relationship, get over it".
From my own experience, people that tries to convince victims that they aren't victims (gas lighting) are usually very envious people.
Envious people are a personal red flag to me, even on cases that aren't related to grooming, they only usually think on themselves to the point of bashing others and tries their best to avoid the consequences of their actions. They love using people in a better situation than them as their personal toilet for their shit.
How?
They consciously hurt their target, and try their best to convince their target to not bash back, their favorite methods are:
Making the target feel guilt, "If you do X, then you are X bad thing/ I'm right", playing the victim, shit talking about you behind your back, etc.
Even had female friends, of fuckin +27 years old saying that when we talked about grooming, without noticing how damaging that phrase can be. Again, because it is normalized in Latin America, I've heard that phrase in Chile, in Peru, from Argentina's, Costa Rica's, Venezuela's and Mexico's people. Enabling cases of grooming, because thanks to that phrase (and not only that one) they convince grooming victims to just assume "it was a normal relationship, get over it".
From my own experience, people that tries to convince victims that they aren't victims (gas lighting) are usually very envious people.
Envious people are a personal red flag to me, even on cases that aren't related to grooming, they only usually think on themselves to the point of bashing others and tries their best to avoid the consequences of their actions. They love using people in a better situation than them as their personal toilet for their shit.
How?
They consciously hurt their target, and try their best to convince their target to not bash back, their favorite methods are:
Making the target feel guilt, "If you do X, then you are X bad thing/ I'm right", playing the victim, shit talking about you behind your back, etc.
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Rn you are giving me the vibe you didn't get what I'm explaining or you just didn't care to say... that...
Oof, I get that kind of annoying kids all the time, we just instantly ban them and warn our circles.
But yeah no, a kid is a kid, a kid is a human without life experience, a kid does what others do due to the influence of the people they admire. If a kid is lying about their age to enter to adult spaces is because they lack of attention, isn't being raised well, so they do stupid stuff like that.
Should they have consequences of their actions? Yes, if we find out about their age we delete them from everywhere and warn our circles. We take out the candy they want and say bye bye.
Should they just assume and get invalidated if they did +18 stuff and if an adult groomed them while knowing their real age? HELL FUCKING NO.
Oof, I get that kind of annoying kids all the time, we just instantly ban them and warn our circles.
But yeah no, a kid is a kid, a kid is a human without life experience, a kid does what others do due to the influence of the people they admire. If a kid is lying about their age to enter to adult spaces is because they lack of attention, isn't being raised well, so they do stupid stuff like that.
Should they have consequences of their actions? Yes, if we find out about their age we delete them from everywhere and warn our circles. We take out the candy they want and say bye bye.
Should they just assume and get invalidated if they did +18 stuff and if an adult groomed them while knowing their real age? HELL FUCKING NO.
I see the problem more, that you dont know, when someone is really mature, you know?
The good old 18 years rule is... not very accurate.
I know 16 Years old kids that are more mature and got more life experience, then some 25 Years old people, that get in the same situation like you.
I would rather say, if you KNOW someone is inmature and got no experience and you can take advantage of them AND YOU DO IT, that is a red flag.
Humans are socially complex, so a strict age rule doesn't cute it, for that, we are to complex.
The good old 18 years rule is... not very accurate.
I know 16 Years old kids that are more mature and got more life experience, then some 25 Years old people, that get in the same situation like you.
I would rather say, if you KNOW someone is inmature and got no experience and you can take advantage of them AND YOU DO IT, that is a red flag.
Humans are socially complex, so a strict age rule doesn't cute it, for that, we are to complex.
It -really- doesn't though. A 16 year old who -seems- mature is NOT mature. Let's get straight about something, you, me, and others who read this: a kid, immature, average, or mature in how they act is still a kid.
Developmental, clinical, and neurological psychology have all but nailed down that before your mid-twenties, your brain is still in-development. A teenager is, bar none: more susceptible to internal and external pressure to conform, has underdeveloped impulse control, and lack in the emotional maturity required for complex emotional decision making.
So if -any- adult is messing around with -any- kid, age of consent be damned, that dangerous territory.
Teenagers dating? (If done healthily) Even playing field, healthy power balance, good exploration territory. Ealry to mid- twenties dating? Still also quite safe. But if a thirty year old goes after a twenty year old, there is a lot of risk to that 20 year old.
So remember that - a mature 16 year old may seem mature for a 16 year old.
But they are still sixteen.
Developmental, clinical, and neurological psychology have all but nailed down that before your mid-twenties, your brain is still in-development. A teenager is, bar none: more susceptible to internal and external pressure to conform, has underdeveloped impulse control, and lack in the emotional maturity required for complex emotional decision making.
So if -any- adult is messing around with -any- kid, age of consent be damned, that dangerous territory.
Teenagers dating? (If done healthily) Even playing field, healthy power balance, good exploration territory. Ealry to mid- twenties dating? Still also quite safe. But if a thirty year old goes after a twenty year old, there is a lot of risk to that 20 year old.
So remember that - a mature 16 year old may seem mature for a 16 year old.
But they are still sixteen.
I highly appreciate the bit about psychology. Copy pasting a bit from my reply to sif:
Because of this I really, really, really hate the over/under 18 rule the internet and US goes by. Interpersonal relationships should be judged on age difference and things that are more public, like staring in pornorgaphy or going to adult only events should have a minimum age of 21 because that's (as far as we know) when your brain is fully developed. Ideally add 1 or 2 years so the person has some experience being an adult but that would be a legal mess to get passed.
For all its flaws that semi-meme rule of "half my age + 7" is actually better at preventing large age gaps than just the blank "over/under 18" one. For anyone wondering, the oldest person who can date an 18 year old under that is 22.
"Because of this I really, really, really hate the over/under 18 rule the internet and US goes by. Interpersonal relationships should be judged on age difference and things that are more public, like staring in pornorgaphy or going to adult only events should have a minimum age of 21 because that's (as far as we know) when your brain is fully developed. Ideally add 1 or 2 years so the person has some experience being an adult but that would be a legal mess to get passed.
For all its flaws that semi-meme rule of "half my age + 7" is actually better at preventing large age gaps than just the blank "over/under 18" one. For anyone wondering, the oldest person who can date an 18 year old under that is 22.
Using an old lurk account here because it's the only one I have.
I come from a COMPLETELY different culture than you in regards to the taboo and knowledge of sex, I live in Scandinavia: pretty much everyone here has had sex ed and a basic understanding by the time they're 12, usually become sexually active at around 16-17 and there's no moral religious guilt. While it's still there the gender imbalance in how sex is treated is also significantly less. With age moral focus is also on age difference not over/under 18 like in the us (the age of consent is TECHNICALLY 15 but a politician was absolutely lynched for having slept with a 15 year old. )
I have no idea what it's like growing up where you did but the "16 year old who dosent know what these feelings are" dosent happen here. Your description of that is what it might be like being 10-13 here, not 16. Because of all that I kinda disagree with making 16/22 a "universal hard no", at least when not taking cultural things like this into account.
Perhaps you're a lot more vulnerable as a Chilean 16 year old in a strict family than a Danish 16 year old with a very liberal family by those standards.
I come from a COMPLETELY different culture than you in regards to the taboo and knowledge of sex, I live in Scandinavia: pretty much everyone here has had sex ed and a basic understanding by the time they're 12, usually become sexually active at around 16-17 and there's no moral religious guilt. While it's still there the gender imbalance in how sex is treated is also significantly less. With age moral focus is also on age difference not over/under 18 like in the us (the age of consent is TECHNICALLY 15 but a politician was absolutely lynched for having slept with a 15 year old. )
I have no idea what it's like growing up where you did but the "16 year old who dosent know what these feelings are" dosent happen here. Your description of that is what it might be like being 10-13 here, not 16. Because of all that I kinda disagree with making 16/22 a "universal hard no", at least when not taking cultural things like this into account.
Perhaps you're a lot more vulnerable as a Chilean 16 year old in a strict family than a Danish 16 year old with a very liberal family by those standards.
adults can deal with the consequences of their actions, kids have not even had the chance to fully develop their brain yet. that's why 18 is the rule, at least in USA.
I've been a 16 year old girl who just adored the attention of handsome adult men, too, so I would just go along with stuff.. it's not the best to look back on. Not really the way to learn how relationships should work..
I've been a 16 year old girl who just adored the attention of handsome adult men, too, so I would just go along with stuff.. it's not the best to look back on. Not really the way to learn how relationships should work..
Where I live the age of consent is 14, so the whole 18 years rule isn't something I grew up with, but I can still see that a 22 year old doing this, or even just anything sexual to a 16 year old in that way is all kinds of fucked up.
Sure, yes, some 16 year olds can be more mature than others, absolutely, but there is plenty of life experience that a 16 year old just can't really have, no matter how "mature for their age" they may be.
I'm not saying that the 18+ rule thing is perfect either, because it's not as easy as that. But it makes sense, because in most places around the world, this is the age that you can first make these life experiences, which you most likely never even got the chance to make before.
Sure, yes, some 16 year olds can be more mature than others, absolutely, but there is plenty of life experience that a 16 year old just can't really have, no matter how "mature for their age" they may be.
I'm not saying that the 18+ rule thing is perfect either, because it's not as easy as that. But it makes sense, because in most places around the world, this is the age that you can first make these life experiences, which you most likely never even got the chance to make before.
By "and you do it" are you just referring to dating/being sexually involved with them? Because then all experienced/inexperienced relationships would be exploitative, even if the inexperienced person was technically older. Like if you dated someone a year older than you with no experience would that be exploiting?
I hope this doesn't come as defending the abuser (I'm not, and that's not what I'm trying to imply), but I know for a fact, being from South America too, that in several cases "adults" of up to 25 will really have no idea on what they're doing. Of course, this doesn't excuse any of those actions, but it does add strength to the issue you're pointing out: it's the f**ng normalization of things like this that hurt everyone.
Also, I've only ever heard people calling others a "robacunas" only with a joking tone, never with real concern.
Also, I've only ever heard people calling others a "robacunas" only with a joking tone, never with real concern.
Hi! Nice seeing you around. Let me explain, I know it may look like I was trying to sound smart at a comment, but I actually meant what I said.
There’s a point in life (particularly adolescence) where we start defying authority because what we don’t understand is plainly wrong or outdated, or just not considering your context.
As an example, you might know that the legal drinking age is 18, but you’re okay with doing it being 15 because you have it under control and you never hurt anyone (this was my case, for example). Yes, it’s illegal, but if I don’t bother anyone, it’s okay, right?
I can mention a lot of other innocuous examples (jaywalking, illegal. Giving a wrong change, illegal. Playing a prank where you claim to be an authority, illegal.), but the point is that, as we grow up, we start realizing that law and morality are not exactly 1 to 1, and we drive our own decisions (especially passionate ones) from our morality compass.
You might ask “well then, why does everyone talk about how minors are illegal? They must clearly know what’s wrong”. That’s an effect that is baked in the laws themselves: an action punishment is so severe that it deters people from even trying the crime, because the risk is not worth it. This is the fantasy that authoritarians have when they say “let’s cut off the hands of everyone that steals so everyone will be scared of stealing”.
Back to this particular case, imagine a 19 year old and 17 year old. Illegal. “But we’re in love, we don’t hurt anyone.”
Even in a more extreme case, let’s say a 20 and a 14 year old. More extreme: the older does not love the younger one. “We’ll, it’s not illegal because she wants it.”
I know this is fucked up. I know it’s wrong. My point is that when presented in such a situation most people don’t really know (or think) about the pain and damage they can cause. Yes, it’s illegal, but it’s not wrong if X or Y.
(PS: my examples are real people I knew.)
There’s a point in life (particularly adolescence) where we start defying authority because what we don’t understand is plainly wrong or outdated, or just not considering your context.
As an example, you might know that the legal drinking age is 18, but you’re okay with doing it being 15 because you have it under control and you never hurt anyone (this was my case, for example). Yes, it’s illegal, but if I don’t bother anyone, it’s okay, right?
I can mention a lot of other innocuous examples (jaywalking, illegal. Giving a wrong change, illegal. Playing a prank where you claim to be an authority, illegal.), but the point is that, as we grow up, we start realizing that law and morality are not exactly 1 to 1, and we drive our own decisions (especially passionate ones) from our morality compass.
You might ask “well then, why does everyone talk about how minors are illegal? They must clearly know what’s wrong”. That’s an effect that is baked in the laws themselves: an action punishment is so severe that it deters people from even trying the crime, because the risk is not worth it. This is the fantasy that authoritarians have when they say “let’s cut off the hands of everyone that steals so everyone will be scared of stealing”.
Back to this particular case, imagine a 19 year old and 17 year old. Illegal. “But we’re in love, we don’t hurt anyone.”
Even in a more extreme case, let’s say a 20 and a 14 year old. More extreme: the older does not love the younger one. “We’ll, it’s not illegal because she wants it.”
I know this is fucked up. I know it’s wrong. My point is that when presented in such a situation most people don’t really know (or think) about the pain and damage they can cause. Yes, it’s illegal, but it’s not wrong if X or Y.
(PS: my examples are real people I knew.)
Hi there -- wanted to leave a clarification because this is a serious subject, so I want to avoid any misunderstanding.
I am not (and I cannot empahize this enough) justifying abusers or defending them. All of these are awful and tragic in different ways, and we need to make sure they stop.
My point of view (which I am open to debate) is that throwing a blanket statement of "abusers do it because they're evil" is not very useful or truthful. Rather, I think reality is more complex, and while there might be some that are truly evil, most of them are in a mixture of selfish assholes + fucked up values.
Why did I bring it up in the first place? Because I'm fully siding with Sifyro here -- it's not a problem of a few people that are abusers, it's a wider problem of all the fucked up things that we normalize as a society.
Which is why I also agree with her that we need to talk more about his. What she's doing (hard enough as it is), speaking up and saying "this happened and this is how it hurt me" really helps, because it might get others to re-think about what they're doing, and not just follow along what their upbringing left them with.
I am not (and I cannot empahize this enough) justifying abusers or defending them. All of these are awful and tragic in different ways, and we need to make sure they stop.
My point of view (which I am open to debate) is that throwing a blanket statement of "abusers do it because they're evil" is not very useful or truthful. Rather, I think reality is more complex, and while there might be some that are truly evil, most of them are in a mixture of selfish assholes + fucked up values.
Why did I bring it up in the first place? Because I'm fully siding with Sifyro here -- it's not a problem of a few people that are abusers, it's a wider problem of all the fucked up things that we normalize as a society.
Which is why I also agree with her that we need to talk more about his. What she's doing (hard enough as it is), speaking up and saying "this happened and this is how it hurt me" really helps, because it might get others to re-think about what they're doing, and not just follow along what their upbringing left them with.
I gotcha c: I didn't think you weren't siding with her, I just don't favor the sorts of people who engage with children and don't realize it's wrong to do it.
A lot of people who hurt others don't understand that a lot of harm/abuse (probably MOST) comes from unintended consequences. There are ways I can relate to Sif's experience, but the adults I was around at least waited until I was 18 to be blatantly sexual with me. They weren't evil, they were actually kind to me and kind to others, but I do harbor resentment towards how they used me as a sexual plaything for a while. It ended up hurting me because I couldn't understand why they held some distance towards me when I wanted to be closer to them and have more significant relationships with them. It's why I'm of the opinion you just don't mess with kids, because you'll mess them up - maybe only a little, maybe a whole lot. The relationship is imbalanced. Kids should date kids, yknow? Relationships need an even playing field (at all ages), otherwise bad happens. :)
A lot of people who hurt others don't understand that a lot of harm/abuse (probably MOST) comes from unintended consequences. There are ways I can relate to Sif's experience, but the adults I was around at least waited until I was 18 to be blatantly sexual with me. They weren't evil, they were actually kind to me and kind to others, but I do harbor resentment towards how they used me as a sexual plaything for a while. It ended up hurting me because I couldn't understand why they held some distance towards me when I wanted to be closer to them and have more significant relationships with them. It's why I'm of the opinion you just don't mess with kids, because you'll mess them up - maybe only a little, maybe a whole lot. The relationship is imbalanced. Kids should date kids, yknow? Relationships need an even playing field (at all ages), otherwise bad happens. :)
You need to reconsider your terms here: if an 'abuser' is 'someone who abuses' then yes, claiming that all abusers do because they are bad people is okay statement.
Why they are bad people and to what degree? A worthwhile conversation but it doesn't change the fact that you don't call someone who 'genuinely didn't know better' an abuser. Best you can say is they are a 'person who unwittingly caused harm.'
The 17 and 19 year old? If on inspection that 19 year old really was acting in good faith then, now, that is letter of the law versus spirit of the law.
A 20 and 14 year old? Assuming the 20 year old is a normal functioning individual, there is something wrong there. A child and their ability to be autonomous agents, even if the older person doesn't know those words and only the ideas behind them, is obvious. You make a choice, at that point, to put your own interests over that of the child.
Nuance only really comes into it during the transition period of a person of about 17-18 and another of about 22-23 being together, when you have to look at how the relationship was formed, how the younger is treated by the older, etc. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to argue good faith for any greater age discrepancy.
---
See my above comment for the psychological and biological reasons kids aren't responsible while adults are in this scenario.
Why they are bad people and to what degree? A worthwhile conversation but it doesn't change the fact that you don't call someone who 'genuinely didn't know better' an abuser. Best you can say is they are a 'person who unwittingly caused harm.'
The 17 and 19 year old? If on inspection that 19 year old really was acting in good faith then, now, that is letter of the law versus spirit of the law.
A 20 and 14 year old? Assuming the 20 year old is a normal functioning individual, there is something wrong there. A child and their ability to be autonomous agents, even if the older person doesn't know those words and only the ideas behind them, is obvious. You make a choice, at that point, to put your own interests over that of the child.
Nuance only really comes into it during the transition period of a person of about 17-18 and another of about 22-23 being together, when you have to look at how the relationship was formed, how the younger is treated by the older, etc. Beyond that, it's pretty hard to argue good faith for any greater age discrepancy.
---
See my above comment for the psychological and biological reasons kids aren't responsible while adults are in this scenario.
I have always been in conflict with even our own law here in the UK and especially as time has gone on since I was 18. Now that I am 25, I think about it even more.
Age of consent for sexual activities is 16+ yet we define a "young person" as someone between 13-18. It is easy for me to look back and see that I really was not a all-put-together person until I was at least 19 or 20. Most things open up to you at the age of 18 like purchasing Alcohol and more.
I was in my experiences just hanging out with older folk above my age but it was literally just for games or socialising. There was never any sexual element to it. And even for me... I was a bit abnormal anyway and had very little to no actual desire manifesting itself on any of my classmates or anyone I saw. Nevertheless, nobody approached me either. I also was not really on social media at all which might have been a benefit..
In short... I really hate that phrase. Its honestly disgusting. Do adult things take adult responsibilities... The whole air of "Oh you knew what you were doing", "You knew what you were getting into, you are an adult" just absolutely repulses my senses. I can touch back to how I was at 16 and it reviles me more just thinking about being in the situation and how easy it would have been to be led along.
Age of consent for sexual activities is 16+ yet we define a "young person" as someone between 13-18. It is easy for me to look back and see that I really was not a all-put-together person until I was at least 19 or 20. Most things open up to you at the age of 18 like purchasing Alcohol and more.
I was in my experiences just hanging out with older folk above my age but it was literally just for games or socialising. There was never any sexual element to it. And even for me... I was a bit abnormal anyway and had very little to no actual desire manifesting itself on any of my classmates or anyone I saw. Nevertheless, nobody approached me either. I also was not really on social media at all which might have been a benefit..
In short... I really hate that phrase. Its honestly disgusting. Do adult things take adult responsibilities... The whole air of "Oh you knew what you were doing", "You knew what you were getting into, you are an adult" just absolutely repulses my senses. I can touch back to how I was at 16 and it reviles me more just thinking about being in the situation and how easy it would have been to be led along.
I cannot agree with you more that a kid isn't capable of 'taking adult responsibilities' when they aren't, you know... adults.
28 yo takes a gun, shoots a random guy on the street, instant murder charge.
8 yo takes a gun, shoots a random guy on the street... instant murder charge? Oh wow, breaks a part a bit, doesn't it.
28 yo takes a gun, shoots a random guy on the street, instant murder charge.
8 yo takes a gun, shoots a random guy on the street... instant murder charge? Oh wow, breaks a part a bit, doesn't it.
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