Eh. I always figured that Cerebrates gave general directions (and that Overlords relayed these and acted as supervisors) and that each Zerg organism had it's own "mind" and instincts. As for why the Zerg without cerebrates stuck around where they did...

In SC1, the whole hive just went feral. The Overlords continued to give orders and let the hive retain some semblance of cohesion.

In SC2, aren't ALL Zerg under Kerrigan's control? Including the ones on Auir?

SC1: Had it just been a semblance, than the response would have been extremely uncoordinated, however you do get a dedicated response force past your initial base *because that would be rude to squash you that early in the campaign*. Essentially, nothing should have been operating nearly as well as it had been, whether there is some canon on the Feral Nature, that would certainly be useful right now.

SC2: Zeratul himself claims that the Zerg present on Aiur must "Detect a threat to their dead master". That being said, one can surmise that they're still following the dead Overmind- it would seem a bit unusual for the Zerg on Aiur to be under Kerrigan's control, if that was the case, than what happened to all of those guys that went with Samir Duran? Wouldn't they be under Kerrigan's control as well? For the most part it is entirely unexplained how the Zerg are functioning past the encounters by Jim Raynor. We'll have to wait and see.

Now then again, we're talking a theory. It helps now that there's these details you're bringing up, because everything can make or break something like this- but even then it won't effect anything. I doubt it'll be much more than a mental experiment to be honest.

There's also the issue of game canon vs. written canon. IIRC, written canon says that the Zerg wandered pretty aimlessly when their Cerebrate died. Don't forget that things have been retconned, too; I'll bet you that if that mission had been done in SC2 it would have been very different and focused on packs of Zerg rather than a fully functional hive structure.

Plus, theres no reason to discount what evidence we have because it was a "special case"; I'm speaking about Kerrigan and what's been said of how she controls the Zerg. Kerrigan didn't completely restructure the command chain, she only took the place as it's leader and then eventually removed the Cerebrates.

The Dark Templar Saga gives us plenty of chances to see how Kerrigan controls the Zerg, and it always seems to be a "go do this, I'll watch through your eyes if you find something interesting and give the occasional command" thing. Why assume that this is any different from the way the Cerebrates did it?

And regarding Zeratul... there's no reason to take what he said literally. Perhaps the Zerg were just on standing orders from Kerrigan to defend their hive, which happened to be built near the Overmind's grave?

Kerrigan held sway over all Zerg at the end of the Brood War. Thats not to say she directly controlled each and every one; as I said before, it doesn't appear to work that way. She has to actively choose to see through a minion. The ones with Duran were held in stasis and thus inaccessible, or perhaps drugged. Regardless, they weren't in any position to do anything for Kerrigan then.

So we're making the incredibly arguable implication that Kerrigan's psychic capacity surpasses pretty much what I would deem as acceptable for a soft-science explanation. The micro of one Zerg at a time, plus some general instruction- seems haphazard and unfounded at best, no wonder the stupid crap like the Mind Control Tower in SCII campaign, Psi Disrupter in SCII campaign and the Psi Emitter, would have any deem-able effectiveness, but the idea of microing a BILLION zerg all at once seems a bit- well staggering to me. I hope Kerrigan took the time to upgrade her brain to a 36core processor. That and somehow Issuing real-time instructions to a Hive Long lost and forgotten on Aiur *around her dead master- why keep a force there? Afraid he might just accidentally not be dead?* Stasis seems plausible but much like the Kerrigan canon, which again I haven't done any canon research myself, so I'm trusting your word, seems entirely far-fetched beyond even Starcraft's low standard of what is and is not acceptably done, I mean hell I don't think any of the story team, line writers, or the inbetweens had a CLUE about scientific method, with the possible exception of that one guy who did the little tid-bits about the Zerg and Protoss Research Tanks.

And while again- it might now be one at a time, per say, it could be a RALLY ON THIS LOCATION deal- but that just seems so detached, to the point that Command and Conquer has a control scheme that makes sense when looked at analytically.

I suppose it's my bad for not looking into all the canon- per say, but I think I enjoy it more, both due to bias, and due to a slightly better amount of feasibility. How would Kerrigan instantly control a Hive Cluster from several billion Light Years away? WOOOOORRRRMMMHOOOOOOOOLES THROUGH THE BRAAAAAAAAAAIN D:

"So we're making the incredibly arguable implication that Kerrigan's psychic capacity surpasses pretty much what I would deem as acceptable for a soft-science explanation. The micro of one Zerg at a time, plus some general instruction- seems haphazard and unfounded at best, no wonder the stupid crap like the Mind Control Tower in SCII campaign, Psi Disrupter in SCII campaign and the Psi Emitter, would have any deem-able effectiveness, but the idea of microing a BILLION zerg all at once seems a bit- well staggering to me. I hope Kerrigan took the time to upgrade her brain to a 36core processor."

I didn't say she microed billions of Zerg at once. In fact, that seems to be what YOUR theory suggests: that the Cerebrates could control each and every Zerg they had with perfect accuracy at all times. Kerrigan gives basic directions and leaves them to their own devices, interfering when needed (such as telling a horde of minions to stop when they barrelled into a large room occupied by a powerful enemy) and switching her focus from minion to minion as needed to observe what's going on.

"That and somehow Issuing real-time instructions to a Hive Long lost and forgotten on Aiur *around her dead master- why keep a force there? Afraid he might just accidentally not be dead?*"

The hive was already there. She inherited it when she took control of the swarm. Why get rid of it? Why assume it was "forgotten"? According to the Dark Templar Saga, the Zerg on Auir were mindless for a while and the Protoss survivors had time to regroup, but then the Zerg suddenly started acting like themselves again and started attacking; that marks the point where Kerrigan took control again.

"Stasis seems plausible but much like the Kerrigan canon, which again I haven't done any canon research myself, so I'm trusting your word, seems entirely far-fetched beyond even Starcraft's low standard of what is and is not acceptably done, I mean hell I don't think any of the story team, line writers, or the inbetweens had a CLUE about scientific method, with the possible exception of that one guy who did the little tid-bits about the Zerg and Protoss Research Tanks."

It's classic "space opera" science fiction, you're expecting scientific accuracy?

"I suppose it's my bad for not looking into all the canon- per say, but I think I enjoy it more, both due to bias, and due to a slightly better amount of feasibility. How would Kerrigan instantly control a Hive Cluster from several billion Light Years away? WOOOOORRRRMMMHOOOOOOOOLES THROUGH THE BRAAAAAAAAAAIN D:"

Psionics. Otherwise known as "magic for SF". There's plenty of precedent in SC for instantaneous communication across long distances. Hell, the Terrans have FTL communications with technology, no reason that psionics (which are made out to be a very advanced "technology") couldn't do the same.

I for the most part am expecting something with some actual substance. I mean honestly if it falls down to "HERP MAGIC BULLSHIT INSERTED" alright fine. Every freakin' space bullcrap does it anyway. But my particular theory basically came from trying to make it work, at least even slightly. Pin point accuracy could be obtained if you managed to have several bodies operating under one consciousness- noted that consciousness would have to manage each body in unison, but the size of the Cerebretes- again to my uneducated understanding, are pretty sizeable "brain bugs" as Starship Troopers would put it.

I'd much enjoy something that would make a hint of sense, hell if I actually cared about the Half-Life universe I'd drop theories about that crap too, but obviously as a Zerg furry it's a little more around my scope of interest for this kind of stuff to be out there. I mean hell- PLASMA SHIELDING, that sounds entirely feasible I suppose if you just happen to have psychic bullshit too.

I feel cheated, to be honest. I was hoping for something much more solid than LOL PSI POWER ACTIVATE. But obviously poking around with some ideas is a bad thing and should be discriminated against with impunity.

Hey now, don't shoot the messenger. Honestly, it's a good theory. It's just not correct, since it's contradicted by canon.

Plus, think about it for a second. What makes more sense as an efficient management system?

A) Give your minions free will with the option to interrupt it at any point. Each minion can serve as an input feed as needed; if you don't need to pay attention to it then you don't have to. Minions will carry out directives as their (programmed) instincts dictate.
B) Give minions no free will and require constant input from a higher source. Each minion serves as a permanant feed which can not be shut off or ignored. Minions need constant direction to do anything.

I'd choose A. Less strain on the commander, more unit autonomy, less data to filter through.

Pointing at a target is what most militaries do- being able to coordinate how you point is nice too I suppose- but in this case I very highly doubt that a massive cerebral cortex would have a problem handling the data- I would surmise that Kerrigan is probably pissed off all the time because shes constantly assigning waypoints everywhere.

The biggest thing is that a command structure works, some dumb slut just randomly fucking right clicking planets is the image that the canon gives me. Not a Kerri fan obviously, and I still don't like the story progression at all. But whatever, whatever. The concepts behind ants obviously aren't applicable on a real scale in the slightest sense anyway because they'd need some more intricate method of communication anyway.

I like how Blizzard played the whole "IM NOT REALLY DEAD GAIZ, IT SWA A TRICK!" card with Tassadar. He was an awesome hero, and my favorite, but they didn't need to bring him back.

He was a bro, sure, but the Cheesy Ass Xel'Naga route that spawned out of the overminds deflated urethra was pretty fucking weak

I'm a bad person :C
I pretty much completely forgot everything about the starcraft universe until I played 2
So I was like... FRANK SINATRA, IS THAT YOU?8D
lol whos this tassadar guy he's silly
but now i know c:
Time to go read Speed of Darkness for like the 8th time

So basically your theory is that the Zerg operate in a way similar to the Formics, except with slightly more autonomy at the lower levels of organism, and multiple layers of Hive Queen?

Kind of, although the communication method is still annoying. You basically have to utilize some kind of bullshit psychic easy button to make it have any practicality.

I keep getting the argument that it's more effective to let everyone control themselves- bullshit. Direct control of every unit means precision and lack of second thoughts, if the Zerg are allowed to run on their own, that'd mean that they have a shit ton of runaways.

Basically its like the PS3 vs 360 argument, but on a different level. An earlier argument was that it would be impossible to control everything so easily, but having looked at the likelihoods, it makes more sense for everything working together, instead of HERP POINT AND CLICK HALO WARS. The idea that the Cerebretes wouldn't be able to control everything is bullshit if Kerrigan can control shit FTL by being a cuntsuck.

Then again Blizzard forgot how to write canon long before they even wrote it.

Have you even read Ender's Game? A formic is to the hive queen as your toe is to you

I support any theory which leaves room for epic zerg buttsex.

On a more serious note, though, I don't really see a distinction between a theory of minor zerg independence (which I was talking about earlier) with the theory of cerebrates viewing the swarm like a "body" and that "body" following the last commands given. They don't seem like mutually exclusive theories.

Think of it this way: different cells in our bodies have different functions. In a sense, they "know" how to perform their function without our minds having to tell them what to do. If you extrapolate this concept to the zerg, each individual zerg unit is like a cell to a cerebrate - it knows how to perform certain functions, and performs those functions as part of a cerebrate's brood without the cerebrate having to micro-manage the unit's actions, much as each zerg unit is built up of cells which it doesn't have to micro-manage.

In truth, it's all just systems of systems of systems. The real interesting question is where the lines are drawn. What level of intelligence / independence does an individual zerg have? And does it have that level of independence all the time, or can the cerebrates/overmind do the whole ASSUMING DIRECT CONTROL bit?

My argument is the the most efficient way to have the zerg function is for them to be as intelligent as possible in performing their functions, so that certain actions can be done without much interference - attack, defense, ambushing, etc. They don't need to be super-intelligent, because they're just footsoldiers, but they need to be intelligent enough to make tactical decisions on a micro scale so that the cerebrates/Overmind don't have to, and they can focus on entire army movements (e.g. arm or leg) instead of individual units (like a cell inside of a finger).

Before I begin on my real argument: You've related individual creatures as Cells, and entire groups more along the lines of limbs. This would be similar to people throwing all units into Control Group 1. Beyond the lack of utter cohesion (they'd get an objective and just run blindly at it), we face two real world examples: Auto Immune Diseases, and Ants. Of the first, an Auto Immune Disease is when your immune system misinterprets one or more types of tissues or groups of cells as threats to the body. An example would be my Rheumatoid Arthritis, early onset because of the communication error. Next up on the chopping block, in the Ant Kingdom, a single warrior ant (all of whom are female, ant males have very short- sexual life spans), to my semi-educated understanding, will secrete her own pheromones outside of the Nest, and rally support, if she's successful she can over throw the entire monarchy in a matter of hours. (that generally means a slight feud, then the assassination of the queen).

So with that in mind, if they're anywhere as individually intelligent as many people have attempted to argue, that means that sudden internal feuding, runaways and defects aren't detected in the slightest, which wreak havoc on the internals of the Hive Cluster. While we're on the subject of clusters-

If such a system were devised to check for 'trouble makers' and the like, we make the implication that some system had to be evolved into place, and while it might not be complex, we still understand that there is control over the Brood anyway, so it would be a set back to climb over.

My biggest deal is this: Individuals, no matter how well-serving, ruin armies. When you join an armed force, you're stripped of pretty much every individual thing about you except your facial structure, name, and personality. We gain more than we lose through collective intelligence, so the argument about needing individuals really doesn't serve much purpose. If the Cerebretes are capable of psychic bullshit control, than we can surmise that they should be perfectly capable of handling the entire brood at once, primarily because the Brood Control is handled Locally. Your Cerebrete generally isn't too far from the battle.

The problem with the ant analogy is that it assumes that even basic units have all the "equipment" necessary to command a large number of troops. Intelligence wouldn't be enough to do so in a zerg swarm - you could be totally intelligent, but without the ability to control other units via massive psi powers that at least equal a cerebrate, you'd get nowhere.

It's possible that cerebrates could have both the intelligence and power to break loose if they wanted to - but it would be a suicidal move. Even if all the cerebrates rebelled at once, the Overmind likely had enough psi power to pop them like zits, assume direct control of a decently large number of zerg, and rebuild. We already know the Overmind itself was controlled by some method; controlling the cerebrates would probably be even easier and within the Overmind's grasp.

So, when you extrapolate this out to more "grunt-like" units, it still holds true - rebellion is suicidal. Heck, it might actually happen from time to time - but the zerg as a whole would likely treat it like our body treats a disease. Destroy the pathogen via whatever immune system method is handy (physical or psionic). This makes sense with the Zerg when you consider what happened to the forces of cerebrates that died - they no longer served the interests of the swarm, so the swarm amputated the diseased part of itself. You could even compare the separated zerg broods to autoimmune disorders.

The point of bringing all that up is just to build a theory which says that methods already exist within the swarm "organism" for eliminating rogue threats, no matter how intelligent they are.

One thing I want to make sure we're on the same page on is my definition of individuality within each particular zerg. I'm not saying that every zergling needs to have a mummy and daddy and a personality and a unique worldview and human-level intelligence. That would be over the top. I'm just saying that there are certain skills and functions which it makes sense to have operate at an individual level instead of from remote control. Does a zergling need to know trigonometry and biology? No, because those skills are useless to its function. A zergling needs to know how to be a soldier in order to be effective without cerebrates resorting to ridiculous levels of micro-management. A zergling that knows how to get from point A to point B given just those inputs would be far more valuable than a zergling that needed to be told how to navigate 20 different basic obstacles along the way. This also applies to combat - A zergling that instinctually knows how to RIP AND TEAR and opponent is far more valuable that one that has to be told "Juke left, juke right, lunge, stab with claws, etc.".

The modern soldier analogy of my theory would be that commanders only need to tell groups of marines or even single marines basic information to complete a certain objective, and the marines take it from there. The marines have been *taught* how to fire weapons, execute basic battlefield tactics, etc., so they only need high-level commands (objectives) to perform their function. I think the zerg work the same way, though the interactions could perhaps be considered "subconscious" to a being with the mental capacity of a Cerebrate. For example, when you want to move your finger, you just move it, and it happens. But on a subconscious level, you're causing certain neurons to fire (commands), which cause certain muscle groups to move (units), resulting in a response (troop movements), which you get sensory feedback about (aggregation of unit senses).

I think something we can both agree on is that the less data that needs to be transmitted to and from the control creature (cerebrate), the less control hardware you need, and the more units you can control with the same amount of hardware. But this only works up to a point - if units become too independent, you lose too much control and won't always get the results you want. In other words, there's a certain balance between individuality and direct control which results in optimum efficiency.

I think we're honestly just looking at the same thing from different levels. You seem to be arguing that cerebrate:brood is equivalent to mind:body. I have no problem with this, and it's totally compatible with what I'm talking about. I'm just trying to define how intelligent and independent the actions of a single zerg footsoldier would be as a result of this scheme, in comparison to humans, which are a known quantity. I think the end result would be somewhere between animal and human-level intelligence, though with a limited domain of skills (related almost entirely to combat), while behavior of groups of units would show a common purpose and greater tactical planning than any individual zerg soldier has the capacity for (due to direction from cerebrates).

Huh. Makes as much sense of any other. Personally, I think the Cerebrates have total control. Why bother giving your ground troops brains if all they need are muscles? Just hook up a link and let 'em go.

Having a brain is biologically important for the part that happens after the cerebrete is gone. If the Zerg have no post-processing at all then how would they function off the hook? They wouldn't. On another note the Brain and Conscious are two entirely separate entities, the conscious is intangible while the brain is tangible, the theory reads that there is a collective conscious, but does not specifically state that a physical brain is absent. The organ is pivotal in controlling according to what I have read in relation to Starcraft Canon, so it wouldn't make sense to entirely remove the organ.