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Okay, I may get some flak for this, but this subject came up in a somewhat humorous event a couple summers ago.
So, seriously...am I the only one who is wondering about the logic of this?
In all fairness, it might not apply to people in some areas. I am in Los Angeles, where it's over 80 about six months of the year, and is slated to be over 100 this weekend. I resent having to wear three layers of clothing to a summer wedding.
I do realize the wolf *could* be wearing less in a couple of those situations, but it'd be difficult to do so without appearing flamey. And having been clothes shopping several times in the past year (in non-flamey places, anyway), I can assure you there AREN'T many other options for mens' clothing. Now everything pretty much comes in two pants lengths and two sleeve lengths, and that's it. It seems to be a progressive thing, really. I remember when "shorts" didn't reach below the knees, and shirts were readily available without sleeves.
I'm not being misogynistic, I just don't think it's "unfair" for guys to be permitted to wear less clothing in pretty much *one* and only one situation.
For what it's worth, those of you who have met me at cons have probably noticed my penchant for underdressing; it's my way of thumbing my nose at society's standards.
And no, I have not yet been to a topless beach. @.@
So, seriously...am I the only one who is wondering about the logic of this?
In all fairness, it might not apply to people in some areas. I am in Los Angeles, where it's over 80 about six months of the year, and is slated to be over 100 this weekend. I resent having to wear three layers of clothing to a summer wedding.
I do realize the wolf *could* be wearing less in a couple of those situations, but it'd be difficult to do so without appearing flamey. And having been clothes shopping several times in the past year (in non-flamey places, anyway), I can assure you there AREN'T many other options for mens' clothing. Now everything pretty much comes in two pants lengths and two sleeve lengths, and that's it. It seems to be a progressive thing, really. I remember when "shorts" didn't reach below the knees, and shirts were readily available without sleeves.
I'm not being misogynistic, I just don't think it's "unfair" for guys to be permitted to wear less clothing in pretty much *one* and only one situation.
For what it's worth, those of you who have met me at cons have probably noticed my penchant for underdressing; it's my way of thumbing my nose at society's standards.
And no, I have not yet been to a topless beach. @.@
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Actually, they're legally allowed to in ALL parts of Canada. It's just got to get past the stigma that's carried with a bare chested woman.
Let's face it. Despite the fact that they CAN do it, society still looks down on such a thing that people will still be arrested and then released because they DID have the right. Especially in the more conservative areas.
Let's face it. Despite the fact that they CAN do it, society still looks down on such a thing that people will still be arrested and then released because they DID have the right. Especially in the more conservative areas.
Welllllll... women can go topless at all the beaches here, and nude beaches are quite common on all the coasts pretty much. Currently, the EU nations are QUITE permissive when it comes to a lot of the personal liberties. :3 There's some interesting loopholes, though. Here in Spain, its not illegal for you to smoke pot within your own home, but it is illegal to buy the plant (but not to buy the seeds or grow it yourself if it doesn't go past a certain weight) :3 Hee
I know there's opposition to this sentiment (I believe we've talked about it), but it also goes in line with what society considers "sexy". It's funny that "sexy" for women is less clothing, and for men is MORE (I have been told there's nothing better than a man in a suit, meanwhile most women are desired in bikinis. Wtf?).
Yeah, I've heard plenty of women say that, though I don't know if *all* of them would. There was that infamous diet Coke commercial, after all...
You know, I need to talk to more lesbians for some perspective. I know a lot of my gay male readers like it when my guys dress up too!
You know, I need to talk to more lesbians for some perspective. I know a lot of my gay male readers like it when my guys dress up too!
"Clothes make the man", as Mark Twain had said... "Naked people have little or no influence on society". How a male dresses, in comparison (or contrast) to the social setting he appears in says much about him, whether he intends it or not. Nearly the same for women, but there are differences due to the male habit of regarding females as trophies or potential conquests (within the context of a male-dominated society).
At the risk of being too frank (or nerdy), female nudity is often considered as a sexual invitation, so the more revealing the outfit, the more attractive she appears. Social settings will set limits of course, but which only serves to challenge some to try to be "daring".
At the risk of being too frank (or nerdy), female nudity is often considered as a sexual invitation, so the more revealing the outfit, the more attractive she appears. Social settings will set limits of course, but which only serves to challenge some to try to be "daring".
Interesting, I was just told a version of that theory too--that dressing up indicates power, while blue-collar guys wear less, so what that says about what women are attracted to can be left to your conclusion
The question is whether male nudity is a sexual invitation >.> I'm sure people around here have interesting answers there!
The question is whether male nudity is a sexual invitation >.> I'm sure people around here have interesting answers there!
Good input - I hadn't thought of the sexual invitation notion, but when put frankly, it becomes so clear and "oh right, duh!". As I told Vince below, it's interesting that female nudity is considered sexual invitation, where as men seem to be in that boat regardless of what they are or aren't wearing.
Sadly, yes. On the other side, I'd advise you to take a vacation in Madagascar sometime in summer (North Hemisphere winter). You know, here, topless women tend to be extremely rare (and frowned upon, outside breastfeeding situations).
On the other side, topless men...
On the other side, topless men...
Hehe, well... the land is beautiful, but after three near-civil wars within my lifetime with the constant threat of a fourth one looming over our heads, plus the fact that my boyfriend lives in California...
You'll understand that I'm not too keen on staying here. Actually, I've been trying to get out for years now.
You'll understand that I'm not too keen on staying here. Actually, I've been trying to get out for years now.
See, this is me, cocking my eyebrow at that last panel, since I have yet to hear a woman complain that about a situation where they can get away with being more dressed than the menfolk, or express a desire to go around topless. I know I've heard a lot of my female friends complaining about how this phenomenon plays out in most sports, like at the Olympics, with the emphasis being on "women should dress up more" rather than "men should dress down" (in fact, might do a comic of my own about that, since it's relevant to my OCs). Then again, not in California. *shrug*
I do totally sympathize with the "tuxedo at a summer wedding" sentiment, though. Ugh.
I do totally sympathize with the "tuxedo at a summer wedding" sentiment, though. Ugh.
Hm, you must have missed the LJ entry that inspired this.
When Dev was here in the US the first time, we went to Venice Beach. At the far north end there was a commotion, so we went to investigate.
A group of women were protesting not being able to go topless on the beach, handing out flyers and I believe chanting/talking to passersby. They were pretty much all wearing nothing above the waist but pasties (I believe that's the term), and of course they were drawing a lot of attention. Police were standing by to make sure nothing got out of hand, but it seemed fairly under control for the moment.
I was, of course, boggled.
http://pics.livejournal.com/kylet/pic/00126b2w
So yes, there ARE women who are lobbying for it.
When Dev was here in the US the first time, we went to Venice Beach. At the far north end there was a commotion, so we went to investigate.
A group of women were protesting not being able to go topless on the beach, handing out flyers and I believe chanting/talking to passersby. They were pretty much all wearing nothing above the waist but pasties (I believe that's the term), and of course they were drawing a lot of attention. Police were standing by to make sure nothing got out of hand, but it seemed fairly under control for the moment.
I was, of course, boggled.
http://pics.livejournal.com/kylet/pic/00126b2w
So yes, there ARE women who are lobbying for it.
I support you, but I fear my motive for men wearing less clothing is less... er... 'noble'.
I could get into a whole rant about the underlying themes behind the clothing for men and women, but I don't want to deluge your comments with my nonsense, so I'll just say that this comic made me smile. ^__^
I could get into a whole rant about the underlying themes behind the clothing for men and women, but I don't want to deluge your comments with my nonsense, so I'll just say that this comic made me smile. ^__^
I am amused. Though I would dispute any wearing of less in some of those situations for the male side as being perceived as "flamey", I suppose it really depends on the crowd. Having worn both a suit and a full on dressy dress, I have to say, I prefer the suit. The layers, despite how many of them there are, are much more comfortable. And the jacket and/or vest can be taken off. Slip and nylons ain't exactly cool things either, and don't get me started on the heels.
That said, I find this very amusing, simply because it hadn't occured to me that a guy might feel stifled by his choices as much as I do as a woman. So yay for eye-opening. ;) On an aside, I completely agree with bucking the societal standards. I do my very best to do so as well. XD
That said, I find this very amusing, simply because it hadn't occured to me that a guy might feel stifled by his choices as much as I do as a woman. So yay for eye-opening. ;) On an aside, I completely agree with bucking the societal standards. I do my very best to do so as well. XD
Dunno. I know it's considered very not-cool for straight-looking guys to wear short shorts anymore. Pretty much the only guys in the US who can get away with speedoes are swim teams and bodybuilders (which isn't necessarily viewed as straight, either XD), otherwise you get a lot of jokes. You CAN buy shirts with no sleeves, it's just extremely difficult in most stores.
Good gads, you mean it's LESS comfortable in a dress? (okay, the heels, I kinda guessed...Ironically the rented shoes I got with the tux at my sister's wedding were the most comfortable dress shoes I've EVER had.) Honestly other than the heat, the only part I find actually uncomfortable is the collar; no necktie or bowtie will ever sit well with me.
Seriously, though. I've often felt the reason why men stereotypically don't like shopping is we have no dang choices! Colors, cuts, lengths are all boring and limited. There's no fun in shopping if there's nothing to look FOR.
Good gads, you mean it's LESS comfortable in a dress? (okay, the heels, I kinda guessed...Ironically the rented shoes I got with the tux at my sister's wedding were the most comfortable dress shoes I've EVER had.) Honestly other than the heat, the only part I find actually uncomfortable is the collar; no necktie or bowtie will ever sit well with me.
Seriously, though. I've often felt the reason why men stereotypically don't like shopping is we have no dang choices! Colors, cuts, lengths are all boring and limited. There's no fun in shopping if there's nothing to look FOR.
My friend, while I haven’t been to a nude beach, I HAVE been to Europe, and there, nudity is much more lax than it is over here. Now, while I do agree on that women and men are equal and should be considered such, and that the body is a beautiful thing and shouldn’t been seen as dirty if a woman wants to run around topless, I’ll also say that I’ve seen the people over there. They aren’t all bikini models. I saw a couple women that must have been at least 75, completely naked, and sunbathing.
I rejoiced the bathing suit right then and there.
I rejoiced the bathing suit right then and there.
Naw, it's usually not. To be sure, it's only -fit- guys who feel comfortable walking around shirtless/with revealing shirts, but it's still quite justified. Even that trend itself is justified, actually; those who are fit are more likely to work out, and working out in such weather necessitates more efficient cooling. But the fact that a muscular guy opts out of wearing a shirt brands him as douche-status. Go figure.
At first i thought it was progressive, because the top picture had him wearing the most and then the next pictures had less and less. But anyway on another topic, i agree with you. It does tend to get hot out here in LA and i would hate to be in full dress for a wedding.
That is true, most weddings are done in the summer for some reason, thankfully it was pretty cool at the time of the wedding, so I didn't have your predicament.
Women hardly have to wear anything heavy, just a dress or something light usually while men have usually only one thing to wear, a suit or tux (in the formal setting)
Women hardly have to wear anything heavy, just a dress or something light usually while men have usually only one thing to wear, a suit or tux (in the formal setting)
ROFL, I HAVE to agree, you are right in so many ways. Though, then again, I don't go "shopping" all that often. But you're right. From what I know, for guys. It's just very simple and plain for what there is to get, as well as wear. And for the most part, we wear the most in most situations. So I'm quite glad we get "less" when it comes to beach wear, at the very least. 'Sides, makes it nicer on the eyes for me. <3
Hurhurhur, also, I'll have to see that to believe you "underdress" at conventions. Hurhurhur, you know what they say, 3rd year's the charm. :::LOL's for real:::
Hurhurhur, also, I'll have to see that to believe you "underdress" at conventions. Hurhurhur, you know what they say, 3rd year's the charm. :::LOL's for real:::
LOL! That is funny and awesome. And hi, Jake-lookalike! :D
All I have to say on the subject is, just because everyone can do something doesn't mean everyone SHOULD...but by the same token, everyone should have the same rights to choose whether or not to, and we all need to remember that in any situation you're going to get both the good and the bad. It's like fanfiction...only 10% is really good, and to find it you have to weed through a lot of crap, but the good stuff couldn't even exist if everyone weren't allowed to write it--there has to be open freedom to get enough of a cross-section. Allow everybody to underdress, you're going to need some Brain Bleach...but eventually because of it, you'll find the eyecandy. :)
Personally, while I think guys in suits and other uniforms is hot, I also like them wearing less or nothing. So I don't think dress codes should be enforced either way...don't make everyone have to be nude, but don't insist they all have to wear the same thing either. A wedding in Southern California should allow for sleeveless tuxes and suit-shorts and the like (this is especially important in the furry world, with all that overheating fur), but if someone elsewhere wanted to have a wedding with more lax dress codes, they should be able to do so without people turning their noses up at this 'flouting' of etiquette. Tradition can be nice, but just because something is traditional and has been around a long time doesn't mean it's better. We don't still dress like they did in the Renaissance or Edwardian England. Times change, so do values and fashions and tastes. If someone like Gneech wants to wear a suitcoat, awesome. But men shouldn't be forced to, anymore than women should be forced to wear a corset or a bustle just because women elsewhere choose to do so.
It really should be up to the individual, not society, but those darn standards...oh well.
I imagine if the world was furry, or the climate of the whole world changed, we'd see an enforced change in standards. :P
All I have to say on the subject is, just because everyone can do something doesn't mean everyone SHOULD...but by the same token, everyone should have the same rights to choose whether or not to, and we all need to remember that in any situation you're going to get both the good and the bad. It's like fanfiction...only 10% is really good, and to find it you have to weed through a lot of crap, but the good stuff couldn't even exist if everyone weren't allowed to write it--there has to be open freedom to get enough of a cross-section. Allow everybody to underdress, you're going to need some Brain Bleach...but eventually because of it, you'll find the eyecandy. :)
Personally, while I think guys in suits and other uniforms is hot, I also like them wearing less or nothing. So I don't think dress codes should be enforced either way...don't make everyone have to be nude, but don't insist they all have to wear the same thing either. A wedding in Southern California should allow for sleeveless tuxes and suit-shorts and the like (this is especially important in the furry world, with all that overheating fur), but if someone elsewhere wanted to have a wedding with more lax dress codes, they should be able to do so without people turning their noses up at this 'flouting' of etiquette. Tradition can be nice, but just because something is traditional and has been around a long time doesn't mean it's better. We don't still dress like they did in the Renaissance or Edwardian England. Times change, so do values and fashions and tastes. If someone like Gneech wants to wear a suitcoat, awesome. But men shouldn't be forced to, anymore than women should be forced to wear a corset or a bustle just because women elsewhere choose to do so.
It really should be up to the individual, not society, but those darn standards...oh well.
I imagine if the world was furry, or the climate of the whole world changed, we'd see an enforced change in standards. :P
From what I hear, the people at nude beaches are generally the type nobody else wants to see nude...
Srsly I wouldn't show up to a wedding in boxers, but it'd be nice to at least be able to wear something with bloody shorter sleeves, not to mention less than two layers of sleeves.
Egads, I can't imagine what it would be like wearing that Renaissance clothing in this weather. Then again, they all lived where it's a lot more temperate.
Maybe I should just move to Hawaii. I think they're a little more lax about such rules. XD
Srsly I wouldn't show up to a wedding in boxers, but it'd be nice to at least be able to wear something with bloody shorter sleeves, not to mention less than two layers of sleeves.
Egads, I can't imagine what it would be like wearing that Renaissance clothing in this weather. Then again, they all lived where it's a lot more temperate.
Maybe I should just move to Hawaii. I think they're a little more lax about such rules. XD
Yes, that was what I was getting at, but you have to weed through all those undesirables if you expect to see any of the hotties. Can't have one without the other.
Very true. Still, the point is that fashions change and just because something was once traditionally acceptable doesn't mean it always will be. Maybe this double-standard will be one of the things that fade.
I lived there for a short while. From what I saw, the rules are indeed more lax there. ;)
Very true. Still, the point is that fashions change and just because something was once traditionally acceptable doesn't mean it always will be. Maybe this double-standard will be one of the things that fade.
I lived there for a short while. From what I saw, the rules are indeed more lax there. ;)
Of course it is, just as the rate of really good fanfiction is low. Doesn't mean you should give up! Although in the case of the hotties, the low rate may be because they're deliberately not going out in public--because they know if they do, they'll get mobbed! :P
Now are you contemplating moving to Hawaii, or contemplating how exactly I know the rules are lax there, and what I saw/did? ;)
Now are you contemplating moving to Hawaii, or contemplating how exactly I know the rules are lax there, and what I saw/did? ;)
personally I tend to be a home nudist ;)
years ago I concluded that no one should have the right to force anyone to wear things they do not wish to, the idea of what is proper and exceptable is all based on socioty and tradition.
for example theres a tribe that wears a long tube attached to the penis the longer the tube the more important the guy is, some are longer then the wearer is tall and have to be supported by a cord around thier weist, other then that they wear almost nothing just trinkets and such leaving the balls totally exposed, this is normal and supported by ages of tradition and peer pressure.
on the other hand they have been influenced by judaochristian ideas of what is proper to wear so you rarely see them in traditinal 'clothes' instead they tend to wear concealing short pants.
so ladies want to take off their tops I'll support them totally but being gay I'd rather see topeless guys ;)
years ago I concluded that no one should have the right to force anyone to wear things they do not wish to, the idea of what is proper and exceptable is all based on socioty and tradition.
for example theres a tribe that wears a long tube attached to the penis the longer the tube the more important the guy is, some are longer then the wearer is tall and have to be supported by a cord around thier weist, other then that they wear almost nothing just trinkets and such leaving the balls totally exposed, this is normal and supported by ages of tradition and peer pressure.
on the other hand they have been influenced by judaochristian ideas of what is proper to wear so you rarely see them in traditinal 'clothes' instead they tend to wear concealing short pants.
so ladies want to take off their tops I'll support them totally but being gay I'd rather see topeless guys ;)
I notice the lady wears less and less as the clothes become more casual and to a much larger degree than the gentleman. It's funny she only complains at the end, instead of earlier. She's practically only wearing a brassiere and tight shorts from frame three down.
I agree, though, that for guys, it can be difficult to find much variety. I've often thought how nice it would be to be a women simply for the clothes in all those cuts and colors. You ever looked at an L. L. Bean catalogue? It's so sexist! All the nice colors that I want are only for women (it says so next to them), but as a guy you get your choice of black, grey, charcoal, brown, navy blue, and maybe a dark red. I guess guys who like colors are gay, and heaven forbid men, gay or straight, should have a choice anyway.
You're right about how long shorts have gotten. I remember when they were always above the knee. Now they've practically become pants! One wonders what's the point. Clothing for men now seems to be largely made by Eureka tents than real garment manufacturers. The guys are covering more and more, and the gals less and less. If you walk around Minneapolis, I swear it looks like half the women are hookers. A bit more balance would be nice for a change. I almost never see women in dresses anymore, and when young men dress up, they do it so sloppily that it hardly seems worth it.
Personally, I like dressing up best. You never look better than when you're dressed up in a suite and tie. That goes for many women, too. ;P They can be hot, but then I remember getting married in the height of summer in a suite. It was in the '80s at least, and it was quite humid. Heat's not so bad, but that humidity will kill you! There are ways to dress for that, too.
I used to wonder why, whenever I saw shows filmed in Florida, why the guys always wore white or pastels and such light-looking clothes. It then occurred to me that it made perfect sense. If you're in Miami, for example, where it's humid and hot most of the year, you won't likely find a lot of guys wearing black wool suites. It would be simply foolish to the point of dangerous to do it. You'd keel over from head exhaustion! If you have to dress up at all, you'll wear whites and pastels, and your fabrics will be cottons and linens. You'd also wear fewer layers: instead of a t-shirt under a button-up and jacket, you'd wear just a shirt and maybe a light blazer or sport jacket on days that aren't too hot.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Lovely work.
I agree, though, that for guys, it can be difficult to find much variety. I've often thought how nice it would be to be a women simply for the clothes in all those cuts and colors. You ever looked at an L. L. Bean catalogue? It's so sexist! All the nice colors that I want are only for women (it says so next to them), but as a guy you get your choice of black, grey, charcoal, brown, navy blue, and maybe a dark red. I guess guys who like colors are gay, and heaven forbid men, gay or straight, should have a choice anyway.
You're right about how long shorts have gotten. I remember when they were always above the knee. Now they've practically become pants! One wonders what's the point. Clothing for men now seems to be largely made by Eureka tents than real garment manufacturers. The guys are covering more and more, and the gals less and less. If you walk around Minneapolis, I swear it looks like half the women are hookers. A bit more balance would be nice for a change. I almost never see women in dresses anymore, and when young men dress up, they do it so sloppily that it hardly seems worth it.
Personally, I like dressing up best. You never look better than when you're dressed up in a suite and tie. That goes for many women, too. ;P They can be hot, but then I remember getting married in the height of summer in a suite. It was in the '80s at least, and it was quite humid. Heat's not so bad, but that humidity will kill you! There are ways to dress for that, too.
I used to wonder why, whenever I saw shows filmed in Florida, why the guys always wore white or pastels and such light-looking clothes. It then occurred to me that it made perfect sense. If you're in Miami, for example, where it's humid and hot most of the year, you won't likely find a lot of guys wearing black wool suites. It would be simply foolish to the point of dangerous to do it. You'd keel over from head exhaustion! If you have to dress up at all, you'll wear whites and pastels, and your fabrics will be cottons and linens. You'd also wear fewer layers: instead of a t-shirt under a button-up and jacket, you'd wear just a shirt and maybe a light blazer or sport jacket on days that aren't too hot.
Anyway, I'm rambling. Lovely work.
Up to the part where you got to "I like dressing up best", I thought you had invaded my mind and pulled out all the words. That's pretty much (almost verbatim) all the complaints I have about male wardrobe these days (esp re: interesting colors = gay/feminine, wtf), I just thought my post would be too long if I included it all :-D So needless to say, I agree wholeheartedly.
Except the suit/tie part XD See, MY problem with that is everyone looks the same in those. I mean...how does one look BAD in a suit? They're pretty much all one cut, they have virtually zero color choice, and the look has barely changed over the past century. Compared to, say, female formal wear, which can be as revealing as the first sketch, but doesn't have to.
It isn't that suits are unattractive, per se, I just find them homogenous. Insultingly so. My beef can best be summed up that a father and his adolescent son can conceivably wear the exact same suit; but try forcing a mother and her adolescent daughter to wear the same dress and see how well that goes over!
Ah yes...the Miami Vice look See, I can see wearing THAT to a wedding, but noooooo.
Except the suit/tie part XD See, MY problem with that is everyone looks the same in those. I mean...how does one look BAD in a suit? They're pretty much all one cut, they have virtually zero color choice, and the look has barely changed over the past century. Compared to, say, female formal wear, which can be as revealing as the first sketch, but doesn't have to.
It isn't that suits are unattractive, per se, I just find them homogenous. Insultingly so. My beef can best be summed up that a father and his adolescent son can conceivably wear the exact same suit; but try forcing a mother and her adolescent daughter to wear the same dress and see how well that goes over!
Ah yes...the Miami Vice look See, I can see wearing THAT to a wedding, but noooooo.
At the office I use to work at, during the summer, women would wear the thinnest string strapped dresses, while the men had to wear long pants and shirts. And they got to wear sandals while we were required to wear shoes. I like button down shirts over T's, most of the time. I personally despise ties, and only own a single clip-on for times when it's absolutely required.
I actually stumbled onto a nude beach in Ottawa once. It was on an island out in the river. Would never have known it was there if my friend and I hadn't been biking through the shallow water.
I actually stumbled onto a nude beach in Ottawa once. It was on an island out in the river. Would never have known it was there if my friend and I hadn't been biking through the shallow water.
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