I do believe this goes hand and hand http://www.furaffinity.net/view/548595/

I agree

John Lennon was a retard with naive views of the world (his song "Imagine" proves it).

"Someone give me a clear reason why people must have wars and kill each other all the time. Someone give me a good solid reason for it!"

Gladly;

"Evil men succeed when good men do nothing."


"The truth is, there is no good reason!"

I guess protecting ourselves from a power hungry, murderous tyrant wasn't good enough to go to war in WWII. I guess protecting ourselves from a murderous criminal who calls for the destruction of America isn't good enough to go to war.

You anti-war nitwits want to be helpless and let evil men have their way and threaten lives, be my guest. But don't force those of us brave enough and willing enough to put our lives on the line for your right to throw a temper tantrum to do the same and don't force those of us who don't want to be helpless to be helpless.

I'm not saying we shouldn't protect ourselves, I'm revealing war for what it really is, idiotic. And for whatever noble reason we stood up for ourselves in the past, the reason we're still in Iraq right now is shady at best. Our government had to lie to send us over there, what justifies that?

I only mention John Lennon to cite resources.

"Our government had to lie to send us over there, what justifies that?"

That still doesn't change the fact that bringing freedom to an oppressed people is right and moral.

And the last time we pulled out of a war without finishing the job, it was a massacre (Vietnam and Cambodia...read up on what the Communists did to people after they took over)

> That still doesn't change the fact
> that bringing freedom to an
> oppressed people is right and
> moral.

In that case, would you accept an invasion of the United States to free the American people from the Bush regime? Would you cheer these liberators as they crossed your borders, bombed your cities, wiped out your infrastructure and freed you from the power of the White House? If not, then why not?


Mark

Newsflash: Bush, unlike Saddam, didn't support teorrism, didn't violate UN laws, and doesn't rule with an iron fist (name me one tongue he's cut out).

Whatever beef you guys have with Bush, leave the troops and their mission out of it. They support what they're doing over there and most of them don't give a rip why Bush went into Iraq.

amen...

Here is a long list of military veterans who oppose Bush and oppose his invasion of Iraq:

http://www.ivaw.org/view/profiles

These veterans would never want anyone to "leave the troops and their mission out of it," because they understand very well that pre-emptive war violates international law; they understand very well that soldiers are often used as pawns by politicians who have no regard whatsoever for human rights at home, or for human lives in other countries. They understand very well that this invasion must be stopped.


Mark

"they understand very well that soldiers are often used as pawns by politicians who have no regard whatsoever for human rights at home, or for human lives in other countries."

Yeah...Bill Clinton was a lousy prez when it came to the military.

Just out of curiosity, how many American soldiers died in the Clinton wars? Would you have any reliable figures handy?

It wasn't how many died, it was how Clinton used them that made him a lousy prez militarily.

He pretty much cut our military in half, then put them under the whim of the Useless Nitwits, which isn't what they're for. And he never had the balls to see missions through (the little pussy pulled our troops out of Somalia just because we lost eighteen men on one mission. Later, he pulled them out of another country he sent them to when our troops were greeted by civilians armed with clubs.)

And since you guys say that preemtive war is illegal, what exactly justifed Clinton sending our troops over to the Balkens? They never threatened us, they never attacked us, and Clinton didn't get UN approval before sending them over there.

You say that Bush does not violate UN laws, yet pre-emptive war is indeed a violation of these laws. You say that Bush does not rule with an iron fist, yet how else would you describe the Military Commissions Act and the abrogation of habeas corpus? You say that Bush has cut out no one's tongue, yet he has no need to: like a king without a parliament, he merely ignores any citizen or government or Congress that disagrees with his profoundly subjective opinions.

Mark

According the to the Constitution, the President only needs approval from Congress to go to war, not from the Useless Nitwits (who, by the way, accepted bribes and helped him sell oil, which they themselves forbid).

"abrogation of habeas corpus"

Another Newsflash; habeas corpus has never been a right of enemy combatants and/or POWs. And the Constitution does allow for the temporary ceasing of Habeas corpus in the event of rebellion or invasion (like terrorists, i.e the orignal hijackers, the Shoe bomber and those six terrorists that tried to attack a military base, covertly invading the US).

"he merely ignores any citizen or government or Congress that disagrees with his profoundly subjective opinions."

Yet another Newsflash: The President is who runs a war while it's in progress, not know-nothing peaceniks and RATs who prefer to play politics with the lives of our troops just because they don't like the president (if Kerry was running the war right now, Congress wouldn't be dragging their feet getting the troops the funds they need).

"I'm revealing war for what it really is, idiotic."

"War is an ugly thing but not the ugliest of things; the decayed and degraded state of moral and patriotic feelings which thinks that nothing is worth war is much worse. A man who has nothing for which he is willing to fight, nothing which is more important than his own personal safety, is a miserable creature and has no chance of being free unless made and kept so by the exertions of better men than himself."
-- John Stuart Mill

That about hits it on the head.

sigh... I want to let you know that I apprecaite the job our Americans soldiers do, it's honerable to be willing to die for ones nation and one's people.

But what I'm getting at power and politics. To say that our liberty is in the minds of those in power is what's naive. Power corrupts, we fight and librate a nation just to watch someone else get to the top, and sooner or later we've landed ourselves in another war. It's a cycle, and it's motivated my greed.

And that's why people fight: against pre-emptive wars, against imperialist invasions, against politicians who hide behind the flag as they undermine constitutional rights. That's why people protest, why they march in the street, why they risk arrest and abuse and the total incomprehension of their neighbors.

There is more than one way to fight, and more than one way to support the rights and liberties of your fellow citizens. There are times in the life of any nation when the best way to fight for these things is to oppose a war... especially a war that exists only to keep politicians safe from inconvenient questions and the full attention of their voters.


Mark

And thus I'm at war myself, against war.

I will never accept defeat

These are my weapons:
http://www.stpaulcareers.umn.edu/im.....ign145x100.jpg

These are mine:

thus the burden is on everyone else to behave themselves.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/worl.....0...-4954r.htm

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/1624134.....site/newsweek/

http://www.memritv.org/Transcript.asp?P1=1285

http://www.theotheriraq.com/relationship.html

http://www.goodnewsiraq.com/index2.htm

I will try to post five new links every couple of days.

http://www.nationalreview.com/comme.....r...240729.asp

http://www.operationiraqichildren.org/

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....N...hmZTc1ZDA=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....N...RmYzczOTQ=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....E...E5OTU0YmQ=

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004_.....6...4609755777

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2004_.....3...0956220721

http://chrenkoff.blogspot.com/2005/.....o...rt-35.html

http://www.washtimes.com/commentary.....7...-6970r.htm

http://newsbusters.org/node/10261

http://www.defendamerica.mil/

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....h...UzNTI2YTk=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....Q...cwMThmZjE=

And so are these:

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....R...I1ZDJiNDQ=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....Q...A5OTcwNjQ=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....M...JlM2E0MTc=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....E...VmM2RhOWQ=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....U...YwYTk3MDI=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....Q...Q1Njg3ZDg=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....R...YxM2EyYjQ=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....I...EzNjNjM2E=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....M...hjNWRhNmI=

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....Q...RiNTM5MzE=

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...Itemid=128

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...Itemid=128

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...Itemid=128

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...Itemid=109

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...ng=english

http://www.defendamerica.mil/articl.....o...06dg2.html

http://www.usatoday.com/news/world/...../...uits_x.htm

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?o.....n...Itemid=128

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://abcnews.go.com/International.....l...id=1389228

http://article.nationalreview.com/?.....c...VlNTRlN2E=

http://newsbusters.org/node/3180

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.iraqischools.com/photos/.....x...Sub=People

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dy.....n...01331.html

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://www.mnf-iraq.com/index.php?option...&Itemid=32

http://newsbusters.org/node/10434

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/New.....i...px?ID=2619

And just so you know, these are links to articles detailing the good news coming out of Iraq.

I will say this: you have a nose for propaganda. But does it allow you to broaden your vision? Does it allow you to question your government, one of the primary responsibilities of any citizen in any ostensibly democratic country? Does it allow you to sniff beyond what people with money and power want you to sniff?

From my own experience with the Washington Times and the National Review, I would have to say, "No, quite the opposite. They suck up to power, and they want you to suck up as well."


Mark

Why doesn't it surprise me that you call it that? Typical response from people like you; "I'm right and anything that proves me wrong is just propaganda."

Oh, so calling for "a Million Mogandishues (where eighteen of our soldiers died)", saying America deserved what happened on 9-11, and comparing the people who died to the people who committed the Holocaust is the way to protest against one man's actions? Blaming the many for the actions of the few is the right way to protest an allegedly illegal war started by a few men?

Has anyone on this page said this? No. Has anyone on this page argued for this? No. You're not arguing with us, but with someone else. Be careful: that can be a sign of ideology run rampant.

Mark

(just leave it there, I suspect him being a troll really)

Yep! All the indications are there.

Thank you, though, for posting this image. When all is said and done, it is indeed a question worth asking.

Mark

thanks, I suppose the troll is a good thing... means this turns heads

That's a good point: people have noticed it!

Mark

What's the matter, boys? Don't like it when someone doesn't agree with you?

Believe me, if I wanted to start a fight, I would have done so already.

no, on the contrary I'm sure all of this flooding is earning me some serious page views

;)

And all in a very good cause, too.

Mark

Actually, I'm someone who chooses not to follow the rest of the anti-war crowd just because I don't like the man in office.

Bush is pretty disappointing as a President, but at least he isn't playing politics with our troops like the RATs in Congress are.

So far, those are the kinds of things I've been hearing from people protesting against the war. Just because it hasn't been said on here doesn't mean it isn't said at all.

Saddam was a prick, so the best way to do something about that was to bomb the living shit out of Baghdad and attempt to install a political system into a country that should be making its own decisions. If people should really be fighting for what they believe in, why not let the Iraqis do that for themselves? I find it ironic that democracy is being practically forced into Iraqi politics.

It would be just as foolish to assume that war is genuinely people fighting for what they believe in, when it actually isn't. Believe it or not, not all wars are like WW2. War is also a political thing, a way for ruling classes to compete at the expense of the people. What exactly are Americans dying for in Iraq?

why not let the Iraqis do that for themselves?

Newsflash: Iraqis are voluntarily joining the new Iraqi Army which was set up and supported by the American military

"I find it ironic that democracy is being practically forced into Iraqi politics."

Is that so? That's funny; I seem to remember the Iraqis participating in the three free elections of their own free will and happily showing off that they voted.

Just out of curiosity, and if you don't mind my asking, how long did you serve in Iraq, and where? Why was your experience there so different from the Iraq veterans, cited above, who are now protesting the invasion? What did they see that you did not, and vice versa?

Mark

I've never been to Iraq, as you already know. You trying to tell me there were no bombs dropped? That's all I described.

Wait, whoops XP.

Yep! :)

My question was intended for the "good news from Iraq" fellow, but he never answered. I guess there are limits to how far he'll stand up for his beliefs. Good thing, too: I see no patriotism, no humanitarianism, in killing or being killed for the greater glory of oil corporations and for the perpetuation of neocon lies. There are better causes, far better causes, to fight for.

Mark

Set up by the American military, which was my point. I wonder why the millions of Iraqis didn't overthrow Saddam themselves long before the Americans (who sold them weapons to begin with) could intervene. The Iraqis participated in the voting process yes, but how many? I seem to recall them being huge issues of security too, ie there's a very strong chance there will be serious shit flying at voting stations. Not all people in a country share the same viewpoint, nor do a small group of people, ie those who voted, stand for all Iraqis. You should know that.

I don't like the guy on here saying that A. John Lennon is a retard
and B. War is a good thing, but I love this idea. I've recreated the WAR IS OVER(if you want it) at my school and sadly not much further. I think if everyone wanted war to be over, it would be, John Lennon is my number one idol and hero, by the way. Yet, one thing he said makes sense. War should only happen because of evil people such as Adolf Hitler. But that doesn't account for a lot of the wars fought. This one was about one thing, and even though it sounds like a crazy conspirist saying this: Money and Greed. It's BUSH and CHENEY! It's Busheny McHalliburton! They did it for their own gain. The president with the IQ of a monkey caused it. Oh, and those crazy theories about the Bush Administration doing 9-11? I wouldn't put it past them.

"Oh, and those crazy theories about the Bush Administration doing 9-11?"

You mean these?

http://www.popularmechanics.com/tec.....w/1227842.html

"The president with the IQ of a monkey caused it."

Last I checked, monkeys didn't make a 1206 on their SATs or graduate from Yale and Harvard Business School with a 3.6 GPA.

"It's BUSH and CHENEY! It's Busheny McHalliburton! They did it for their own gain."

You shmucks have had six years to prove that hot air and you haven't done it.

I would imagine that a full investigation with uncensored access to government and military files would help; but for me, this 9-11 issue is a non-issue. The real fight is against policies that are blatantly out in the open: illegal pre-emptive invasion; the misuse of American soldiers and the wasting of their health, sanity and lives for political and corporate gain instead of for national defence; oil imperialism; and assaults upon constitutional rights such as the Military Commissions Act. (Have you read the small print, by any chance? Who gets to define the term "unlawful enemy combatant," and what rights do people so designated have to prove their innocence? It's all there, in black and white, which is why so many Americans oppose it: they would never trust that kind of concentrated power in the hands of anyone in any government.)


Mark

"Who gets to define the term "unlawful enemy combatant,"

FYI, the Geneva Convention has had the definition of an unlawful enemy combatant in it for years, even before Bush became President.

"illegal pre-emptive invasion"

So we should wait for another attack on our soil before going after those who've made it quite clear that they desire our destruction?

"the misuse of American soldiers and the wasting of their health, sanity and lives for political and corporate gain instead of for national defence;"

Saddam made it quite clear what his feelings were about the US and he didn't bother hiding his support for the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Should we have waited for Adolf Hitler to attack US soil before declaring war on him?

"oil imperialism";

If we wanted Iraqi oil, we could have just done what the UN and the countries opposed to the invasion of Iraq were doing; accepted bribes in the form of oil contracts from Saddam.
Also, explain to me why, if we only wanted oil, our forces haven't touched the oil fields and why there aren't any plans to put them under US control? We've been there for almost four years; if oil was our objective, I believe we would have taken control of it by now.

"and assaults upon constitutional rights such as the Military Commissions Act."

The ACLU has yet to find a single abuse of the powers of the Patriot act or the Military Commissions Act.

"I" use "quotation" marks to seem "smart" like I have a "valid" "point", which many "people" disagree "with". Oh, and to the thing abut Saddam's view of America? Well, Bush seemed to be in cahorts with him. And the 9/11 thing, they had knowledge that even if the conspiracies are false, they still could have prevented it.

"So we should wait for another attack on our soil before going after those who've made it quite clear that they desire our destruction?
"

Another attack? You mean from terrorists based in Afganistan that had nothing to do with Iraq? This point is moot.

"Saddam made it quite clear what his feelings were about the US and he didn't bother hiding his support for the 9-11 terrorist attacks. Should we have waited for Adolf Hitler to attack US soil before declaring war on him?"

Despite what Saddam might have said openly, he never attacked the US once. In fact the US used to be his best weapons suppliers. Comparing Saddam to Hitler is stupid; I wont bother explaining why because it ought to be obvious.

Hm. I'm not going to say his father helped get him through college with cash(when he was a D-C student) but I will imply it. :D Plus people with 1206 on their SATs can generally say the word "Nuclear", remember basic sentences, and open doors. And YOU shmucks have had six years to prove that it's not. Where's the reasoning behind the war? There was no threat by the government against us. We weren't attacked by Iraq, we were attacked by terrorists.

wow.....its sad that such a small picture can cause a WAR between people *hem hem* cboy :P

Heck, If I want to attract attention whores who talk to people who will never change their minds all I have to do is write a sentence that includes "war" and "Iraq". =P

Well, excuse me for standing up for what I believe is right.

Fine go ahead. I'm just intelligent enough to realize that that nobody is going to change their minds about what is right in this post. (Btw, I am in the Army Reserves)

Awesome! :D

go ahead and express your opinions. i have nothing against that, i'm just being ironic :P

Bravo sir. Bravo :)
Mind if I use this in my LJ?

absolutely :)