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I wonder how thoroughly he considered this, really..
Full comic is available on my Patreon :3
The support means the world to me, and goes a long way in helping me keep doing this in the future <3
https://www.patreon.com/Muhny
Full comic is available on my Patreon :3
The support means the world to me, and goes a long way in helping me keep doing this in the future <3
https://www.patreon.com/Muhny
Category All / All
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Size 1400 x 2363px
File Size 1.72 MB
Listed in Folders
I mean, thorough consideration probably needs more than a few seconds. But I personally think Lily's being genuine, if only because, well...she is acting to her nature, let's say. As to whether Lyle will actually take her up on the offer...
I'm less convinced about Nino's generosity but she did feel guilty about things so maybe?
I'm less convinced about Nino's generosity but she did feel guilty about things so maybe?
It really feels that way, but I am really worried that the story is just giving her a free pass. It mimics real life abusive behaviours, the manipulation and gaslighting, and trying to glorify that, just because she looks cute, kinda gives me the ick. I suppose, if the chapter really ends this way, I just stop reading entirely, the comic might truly just not be for me then x3
Lily is not a sociopath. She's a victim of an abusive class system that's been lead to believe that mice are mere objects to be used by her betters. She cares about Lyle and simultaneously believes that the sort of cruelty inflicted on him, potentially herself, and any other mouse is a mere fact of their lot in life. She takes no pleasure in it, but is simple minded enough to believe that that is how things are supposed to be and not really believe in anything better.
Take her experience with the hero. She idolizes the hero, but is simultaneously responsible for her death in the same scene. A hero that's a mouse is a fairytale, not a reality. Not in Lily's worldview. And the fate her hero suffered is not a tragedy. Tragedies are for the greater species that reign above mice.
Notably, Lyle does not feel the same way. Mice in general clearly do not agree with her worldview. It's implied that a lot of her worldview is warped by whatever struggles she endured before the story began, leaving her self worth in the gutter.
As for whether this changes things to make the story for you is more on you to decide. I just wanted to offer some insight into an often maligned and misunderstood character.
Take her experience with the hero. She idolizes the hero, but is simultaneously responsible for her death in the same scene. A hero that's a mouse is a fairytale, not a reality. Not in Lily's worldview. And the fate her hero suffered is not a tragedy. Tragedies are for the greater species that reign above mice.
Notably, Lyle does not feel the same way. Mice in general clearly do not agree with her worldview. It's implied that a lot of her worldview is warped by whatever struggles she endured before the story began, leaving her self worth in the gutter.
As for whether this changes things to make the story for you is more on you to decide. I just wanted to offer some insight into an often maligned and misunderstood character.
I don't think freeing a character like Lily from responsibility of her actions, just because she herself is the victim of an abusive system, is a healthy way of seeing this. A victim of abuse can be also an abuser, and trying to absolve them of any wrong doing or critism is just a tad bit problematic in my eyes. Despite, I don't really think Lily is really that "misunderstood", as you say. She shows no sign of remorse or emphathy, and in this case, even of being a manipulator and gaslighter, unintended or not. If people label her as a sociopath, well, I do think they have a point. I myself get just weirded out by the framing of the story, where it almost seems like its trying to justify her actions, and... yeah, by that point, I don't think I would enjoy continue reading. I do like vore stories with evil pred characters, but I don't want them to tell me, that the monstrous abuser actually has a "good heart" and did nothing wrong. By this point, that just triggers something in me x3
I'm not doing that at all.
Without love, it cannot be seen. It's a phrase which means that you cannot ascertain the truth of the matter if your eyes are blinded by your own judgement. Having empathy even for the most vile of people is important, I think, because without that empathy you will often struggle to reach or understand those on the other side.
Regardless, to pull away from these higher concepts, none of that is to say that one should be free of consequence. Trauma and issues are not excuses, but explanations. You can be traumatized and still commit evil and still need to be punished, but I find it compelling how an author chooses to tackle those concepts. Muhny isn't going to just pave over this and ignore it. He'll build and build on what he's written, but stories are complicated things.
For one, even if the story was trying to paint her as completely forgiven for everything she has done, it's not telling you you should forgive her or anyone in real life that might act similarly. We tend to view everything we see through a rather personal lens and relate events we take in to our own lives, but this isn't reality. A lot of the beats this particular plot follows are exaggerated for the sake of porn. If this story was sans the hot stuff, it would almost certainly tone down a lot of the betrayal. It being an element that's meant to be hot absolutely ends up with it turned up to 11.
For two, I think the most compelling thing about narratives involving betrayal is how a character chooses to take in the betrayer. How they come to their decision to forgive or not. Ultimately, if you were in Lyle's shoes, you'd clearly never forgive her. But you are not Lyle. If Lyle does forgive Lily, I for one would be curious how he carries himself after the fact, and what brought him to that decision. What consequences will he face for making it..? Will making that decision spur something in Lily to finally get her to grow? Will she fuck up again?
There's always more that can be done.
Without love, it cannot be seen. It's a phrase which means that you cannot ascertain the truth of the matter if your eyes are blinded by your own judgement. Having empathy even for the most vile of people is important, I think, because without that empathy you will often struggle to reach or understand those on the other side.
Regardless, to pull away from these higher concepts, none of that is to say that one should be free of consequence. Trauma and issues are not excuses, but explanations. You can be traumatized and still commit evil and still need to be punished, but I find it compelling how an author chooses to tackle those concepts. Muhny isn't going to just pave over this and ignore it. He'll build and build on what he's written, but stories are complicated things.
For one, even if the story was trying to paint her as completely forgiven for everything she has done, it's not telling you you should forgive her or anyone in real life that might act similarly. We tend to view everything we see through a rather personal lens and relate events we take in to our own lives, but this isn't reality. A lot of the beats this particular plot follows are exaggerated for the sake of porn. If this story was sans the hot stuff, it would almost certainly tone down a lot of the betrayal. It being an element that's meant to be hot absolutely ends up with it turned up to 11.
For two, I think the most compelling thing about narratives involving betrayal is how a character chooses to take in the betrayer. How they come to their decision to forgive or not. Ultimately, if you were in Lyle's shoes, you'd clearly never forgive her. But you are not Lyle. If Lyle does forgive Lily, I for one would be curious how he carries himself after the fact, and what brought him to that decision. What consequences will he face for making it..? Will making that decision spur something in Lily to finally get her to grow? Will she fuck up again?
There's always more that can be done.
You do have an interesting way of viewing the story for sure! You are not wrong in engaging with the characters the way you do. I am merely explaining my own issues with it, and why it goes into a direction, that makes it unenjoyable for me to continue. No shade on you, or Muhnny, or anyone enjoying the comic, of course. I just think, if a vore story actually wants to adress this sort of themes, it better does it well, and for me, the writing here does more harm than good. By this point, I would have prefered Lyle to be just digested, and let Lily be just the strange little psychopath she is, instead of trying to insist, that she is actually kind hearted. This dissonance between the story saying she is good and innocent, and the reality of her actions, is, I think, what most people critize about the comic as a whole. That's why also no one seems to have a problem with Nino, because the story never tries to make light of her sadistic nature.
But maybe I am also wrong, I am only judging this chapter on 5 pages, maybe the next 5 will make my critism null and void, and I want to be open to be proven wrong. If not, well, I said my piece ;)
But maybe I am also wrong, I am only judging this chapter on 5 pages, maybe the next 5 will make my critism null and void, and I want to be open to be proven wrong. If not, well, I said my piece ;)
I think the next comic especially will be interesting for you to read. But I won't spoil!
That all said, I don't think it's poor writing. Having characters forgive others even when they shouldn't is only bad writing if that is the end of the arc and its never brought up again. If you plan to expand on it later, however, it can be very interesting.
It happens like that way more often irl. So many people fall in love with people that they shouldn't, or forgive when they should move on. For things to resolve the way you want is, in my opinion, too rote and expected. It's not a bad choice, but neither is forgiving her.
That's my issue with your take here, and a lot of the criticism. It's criticism of an ongoing story. Criticism that is only valid provided the story never actually take on anything about this down the line.
I see this often in like... one piece. People will call Oda a hack writer because things will happen that appear to be resolving one way, only for a later chapter to address the issue. No-one has any faith in a writer to actually have a plan, they just bad-faith assume that the writing is going to shit the bed. XP
Like... I really don't think the guy who made you care enough about these characters to have all these opinions to begin with is going to set up all this tension and just resolve it with 'welp lily is good don't question it'. That feels a little too glass half empty for my tastes.
Like. It's possible? But I'll personally wait and see. He's earned my faith.
That all said, I don't think it's poor writing. Having characters forgive others even when they shouldn't is only bad writing if that is the end of the arc and its never brought up again. If you plan to expand on it later, however, it can be very interesting.
It happens like that way more often irl. So many people fall in love with people that they shouldn't, or forgive when they should move on. For things to resolve the way you want is, in my opinion, too rote and expected. It's not a bad choice, but neither is forgiving her.
That's my issue with your take here, and a lot of the criticism. It's criticism of an ongoing story. Criticism that is only valid provided the story never actually take on anything about this down the line.
I see this often in like... one piece. People will call Oda a hack writer because things will happen that appear to be resolving one way, only for a later chapter to address the issue. No-one has any faith in a writer to actually have a plan, they just bad-faith assume that the writing is going to shit the bed. XP
Like... I really don't think the guy who made you care enough about these characters to have all these opinions to begin with is going to set up all this tension and just resolve it with 'welp lily is good don't question it'. That feels a little too glass half empty for my tastes.
Like. It's possible? But I'll personally wait and see. He's earned my faith.
Hehe, I appreciate, that you are trying to make me keep reading the comic, I can see that you are a big fan of Muhnny. That said, now, not everyone's negative opinion is based on misunderstanding, or "blinded by their own judgement". You just have to accept the fact, that other people's reading on the matter are just as valid as yours, not because they don't see the bigger picture and you do, but because they simply don't like it for one reason or another. And that's fair. It just is. Internet discource would be a lot better, if we give each other some grace on the matter, and not trying to prove someone else wrong for liking/disliking something.
For me, personally, the characterization of Lily went downhill over a long period of time, and if the chapter ends the way I suspect it does, Muhnny, for me personally, is losing my trust in the story and the writing, where it's no longer enjoyable for me to continue. It's basically my breaking point with this work. And it's fair for me to call it quits then, is it not?
And I don't want to come off, as me attacking Muhnny. This debate has me detailing a lot of reasons why I dislike this and that, so, I want to at least end the debate with something positive. I think the art is terrific, and I do will miss it if, if I indeed stop reading. Making a comic is hard, really, really hard, so the amount of effort and skill it takes is admirable. I don't want Muhnny to feel down on what he created, it's a tremendous accomplishment. I wish nothing but the best for him and the fans of the story.
For me, personally, the characterization of Lily went downhill over a long period of time, and if the chapter ends the way I suspect it does, Muhnny, for me personally, is losing my trust in the story and the writing, where it's no longer enjoyable for me to continue. It's basically my breaking point with this work. And it's fair for me to call it quits then, is it not?
And I don't want to come off, as me attacking Muhnny. This debate has me detailing a lot of reasons why I dislike this and that, so, I want to at least end the debate with something positive. I think the art is terrific, and I do will miss it if, if I indeed stop reading. Making a comic is hard, really, really hard, so the amount of effort and skill it takes is admirable. I don't want Muhnny to feel down on what he created, it's a tremendous accomplishment. I wish nothing but the best for him and the fans of the story.
I am not trying to prove you're wrong for having a specific take or convince you to keep reading. I am very much an 'I say what I mean' sort of person. I don't carry hidden agendas.
My points about reading further are not to convince you to keep going, they are me saying it does end up getting addressed because your criticism is, in my opinion, poorly put and off base. That isn't to say the take is invalid or your personal loss of trust is invalid, but that the premise of your 'argument' for lack of a better word for it is not supported by the text.
I personally wouldn't mind one way or another if you continued reading or not. It's no skin off my bones. I just correct misinformation where I see it, and the take that Lily receives no consequences or is written to be sociopathic is, in my opinion, a massively inaccurate reading based on the facts of the text as written.
And I'm not a 'fan', I'm his girlfriend.
My points about reading further are not to convince you to keep going, they are me saying it does end up getting addressed because your criticism is, in my opinion, poorly put and off base. That isn't to say the take is invalid or your personal loss of trust is invalid, but that the premise of your 'argument' for lack of a better word for it is not supported by the text.
I personally wouldn't mind one way or another if you continued reading or not. It's no skin off my bones. I just correct misinformation where I see it, and the take that Lily receives no consequences or is written to be sociopathic is, in my opinion, a massively inaccurate reading based on the facts of the text as written.
And I'm not a 'fan', I'm his girlfriend.
Wow. Okay, that's ... a lot to unpack here. Honestly, trying to attack critics of the work by telling them are misinformed, just because you don't like how they read the text is really... rude and petty? Any good author understand, it's not the intent that matters, but how the text is interpreted by the audience. Trying to argue there is only one way to interpret "text as written" is pretty silly.
I ... really don't understand why you try to do "damage control" here as his girlfriend in the comment section, trying to "correct" people's "misinformed" opinion. You are doing Muhnny no favor. It actually reflects kind of badly on both of you. Well, I think I don't really want to continue this conversation, as it has become quite unpleasant. I wish the best of luck to both of you.
I ... really don't understand why you try to do "damage control" here as his girlfriend in the comment section, trying to "correct" people's "misinformed" opinion. You are doing Muhnny no favor. It actually reflects kind of badly on both of you. Well, I think I don't really want to continue this conversation, as it has become quite unpleasant. I wish the best of luck to both of you.
That isn't what I am saying. I am saying what you have said is not supported by the text. That is all I am saying.
I am not trying to do damage control. I don't consider what you wrote as damage. I would say so. None of what you've said about my thoughts is accurate to them at all. XP
I am not trying to do damage control. I don't consider what you wrote as damage. I would say so. None of what you've said about my thoughts is accurate to them at all. XP
Okay, fair. But it really came across like that, to be honest, that's why I was... just kinda weirded out by that. But okay, if that's not your intention, I shall not take it that way x3
Just, don't go around around telling people their opinion is "misinformed", just because you don't like how they read a character. There is more than one way to interpret a story, and that's really all that there is to it. Let's leave it at that. Agree to disagree x3
Just, don't go around around telling people their opinion is "misinformed", just because you don't like how they read a character. There is more than one way to interpret a story, and that's really all that there is to it. Let's leave it at that. Agree to disagree x3
Misinformed is a poor choice of word. Simply, unsupported.
To be completely clear, I believe it is fine to have an opinion even if I believe that opinion is not supported by facts. No-one can help how they feel at the end of the day.
I don't personally see an issue with pointing out the lack of basis beyond that though. We're in a public forum, and the topic of discussion is this piece of work. I don't think it's problematic for me to criticize your criticism if it is not wrong for you to pose your criticism to begin with.
And to be clear! It isn't wrong for you to pose your criticism. I've been seen in these comment sessions brigading against bad-faith criticism in the past so I feel it necessary to say your criticism is not bad-faith. I just disagree with its premise.
That all stated. I will happily agree to disagree.
To be completely clear, I believe it is fine to have an opinion even if I believe that opinion is not supported by facts. No-one can help how they feel at the end of the day.
I don't personally see an issue with pointing out the lack of basis beyond that though. We're in a public forum, and the topic of discussion is this piece of work. I don't think it's problematic for me to criticize your criticism if it is not wrong for you to pose your criticism to begin with.
And to be clear! It isn't wrong for you to pose your criticism. I've been seen in these comment sessions brigading against bad-faith criticism in the past so I feel it necessary to say your criticism is not bad-faith. I just disagree with its premise.
That all stated. I will happily agree to disagree.
I mean, he literally tossed Lyle into a condom earlier to sleep with Lily as a way to humiliate him. And then later toyed with him almost immediately after he spent weeks being traumatized in Lily's belly. Both the prince and princess treat Lyle as a toy or a pet they both really like to abuse but don't want to lose, and any guilt they feel is entirely about how his potential death reflected on their opinion of themselves.
That doesnt make then sociopaths. Cruel maybe, but if they were sociopaths, the prince wouldnt have put a protective spell on him and nino wouldn't have felt bad about lily "killing" him. She'd just replace lyle with another toy. Again, sociopaths can't feel emotion or have any sense of loyalty. Lily however shows 0 signs of remorse, and believes she did absolutely nothing wrong. She's more sociopathic than anyone else in this series.
to be fair to Rio, that first instance could've been, just like, a total missread on his end.
I mean, you invite a girl to your room, she accepts pretty quickly, and when you get back to your room and to the bed you find that she's got her little mouse boyfriend under her blouse, smashed up against her nipple. it'd be a pretty easy mistake to make.
I mean, you invite a girl to your room, she accepts pretty quickly, and when you get back to your room and to the bed you find that she's got her little mouse boyfriend under her blouse, smashed up against her nipple. it'd be a pretty easy mistake to make.
I'm sad this doesn't happen as well.
But also, on Lyle's part I don't see that he approves her behavior. He can accept her/Nino's offer based on the fact he'll be free (if the offer doesn't have a catch) and not because of feelings. This at least works for him if she doesn't apologize.
But also, on Lyle's part I don't see that he approves her behavior. He can accept her/Nino's offer based on the fact he'll be free (if the offer doesn't have a catch) and not because of feelings. This at least works for him if she doesn't apologize.
Lyle hasn't been subtle about how little he enjoys his treatment, but it's usually targeted at people he has absolutely no chance of swaying. The royals, and cat-Lily were able to do anything they wanted to him without consequence.
It's interesting to see him take Lily to task while she's mouse-sized. It seems like it's out of character, but I think it's more accurate to say it's just a tone change for the comic because we're actually having to contend with what he's saying.
I am intrigued!
Thank you for your hard work, Muhny!
It's interesting to see him take Lily to task while she's mouse-sized. It seems like it's out of character, but I think it's more accurate to say it's just a tone change for the comic because we're actually having to contend with what he's saying.
I am intrigued!
Thank you for your hard work, Muhny!
Yeah, I know, while I'd like some reckoning there, even if it was just some light play or something, Lyle's character would clash with that behaviour; he strikes me as someone who would be kind and gentle with his friends, regardless of species differences, which makes Lily look worse in comparison.
At most, I'd like for Lyle to get through to Lily's thick skull that she treated him horribly and should at least feel sorry about it. That's the most I'd be happy to get at this point
At most, I'd like for Lyle to get through to Lily's thick skull that she treated him horribly and should at least feel sorry about it. That's the most I'd be happy to get at this point
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