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More from Cody V. Frost
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From Russia, With Lust Part 13
Category All / Comics
Species Tiger
Size 900 x 1324px
File Size 317.9 kB
Listed in Folders
Not the first one you've seen. Just the first REAL one you've seen
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4282604/
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/4282604/
S'why I said "real" instead of "more likeable". I'm not particularly fond of this turn in Todd's character, but that's just assessing him as if he were a person - as a character, I think it's great! It's a flaw, to be sure, but it adds a new facet. There are plenty of characters I dislike/hate (in general, not in I.S.O. or FRWL in particular) as "people", but just adore as characters, because I like The Real factor so much.
I could say more, but I don't want to make this page a tiny explosion of back-and-forth (you and I can get pretty talky! Haha); I've seen your comments, and understand where you're coming from and how you feel. I just think you should calm down a little...taking this out on Vince is a bit much, IMO. We can always discuss in private if you're still amped up about all this.
I could say more, but I don't want to make this page a tiny explosion of back-and-forth (you and I can get pretty talky! Haha); I've seen your comments, and understand where you're coming from and how you feel. I just think you should calm down a little...taking this out on Vince is a bit much, IMO. We can always discuss in private if you're still amped up about all this.
Fair enough. And I don't deny that it does make Todd more complex and provides for more drama...I guess part of the problem was me making the mistake of thinking Todd didn't have flaws, putting him on a pedestal, when I shouldn't have. Though in my defense, my problem is more with the fact that Vince doesn't seem to see this as a reason to dislike Todd, and that it doesn't seem in tune with what we were shown about him before.
I am sorry you think I am taking this out on Vince. But I think that I, like everyone else, has a right to say if a development in plot or character rubs us the wrong way, or if we think something was poorly written or executed; it doesn't mean I am personally angry with Vince himself or hating him or anything. I'm sorry if it seemed that I was.
We can indeed continue this in PM or email if you like.
I am sorry you think I am taking this out on Vince. But I think that I, like everyone else, has a right to say if a development in plot or character rubs us the wrong way, or if we think something was poorly written or executed; it doesn't mean I am personally angry with Vince himself or hating him or anything. I'm sorry if it seemed that I was.
We can indeed continue this in PM or email if you like.
Okay... if Todd finds out that Cody is related to Vlad... tsk tsk.. stripes will be flying all over the place.
And Vlad really IS cool! Hehe.. The "Girl too expensive, I'll pay but on one condition" jedi mind trick! *chuckles* kidding. But still couldn't believe Todd would actually DO that just to impress a girl. Plus, that's not "just a kiss".. that's "french kissing" already XD And Vlad got two kisses if you count the smack XD
And yes, there would be more to it than just the kiss... Todd would then succumb to Vlad's advances and then Vlad and Todd (forgetting about his lovely lady) would leave the club holding paws... and they live happily ever after bwahahaha ehem.. joke XD
And Vlad really IS cool! Hehe.. The "Girl too expensive, I'll pay but on one condition" jedi mind trick! *chuckles* kidding. But still couldn't believe Todd would actually DO that just to impress a girl. Plus, that's not "just a kiss".. that's "french kissing" already XD And Vlad got two kisses if you count the smack XD
And yes, there would be more to it than just the kiss... Todd would then succumb to Vlad's advances and then Vlad and Todd (forgetting about his lovely lady) would leave the club holding paws... and they live happily ever after bwahahaha ehem.. joke XD
Yeah.. but it won't be on Cody's body anymore as they would be stripped off of him if and when Todd gets a hold of that information. Hehe.
Yeah, that he did... props for that... though I was thinking more in the lines of a kiss on Vlad's cheeks (face cheek)... since Vlad wasn't clear on that subject at all. Todd could actually get away with it and tell Vlad that he did not specify a kiss on the lips... but rather just "one kiss". But yeah, Todd went straight to Vlad's lips... hehe
What? We can dream, can't we? hehe... besides... don't tell me you don't have "sketches" that contains you-know-what with those two.
Yeah, that he did... props for that... though I was thinking more in the lines of a kiss on Vlad's cheeks (face cheek)... since Vlad wasn't clear on that subject at all. Todd could actually get away with it and tell Vlad that he did not specify a kiss on the lips... but rather just "one kiss". But yeah, Todd went straight to Vlad's lips... hehe
What? We can dream, can't we? hehe... besides... don't tell me you don't have "sketches" that contains you-know-what with those two.
This goes beyond him just being a broken straight boy and straight into "I'll do anything, even if it's with a guy, when I previously freaked at even the idea of that, if it'll get me into a girl's pants".
I give him credit for being clever and manipulative enough to do that, yeah. But it doesn't make me admire, like, or want Vlad. Now he's just coming across as an utter bastard willing to do anything, including illegal and immoral things, just to be able to fuck Todd. The fact Todd is shallow enough to be capable of this manipulation is just icing on this whole unfunny, major turn-off cake.
I give him credit for being clever and manipulative enough to do that, yeah. But it doesn't make me admire, like, or want Vlad. Now he's just coming across as an utter bastard willing to do anything, including illegal and immoral things, just to be able to fuck Todd. The fact Todd is shallow enough to be capable of this manipulation is just icing on this whole unfunny, major turn-off cake.
Er, "susceptible to this manipulation". And well...assuming things haven't been derailed completely I imagine either Todd will freak and run (or at least attempt to), or Cody and/or Karl will intervene. Who knows what Vlad will do then...but I'm finding myself not particularly caring any more. :/
That's it, stroke the cheek fruffs with your thumbs, than add a lil tongue, aaaaaaannnnnd there, he's a natural. XD ;-p
Hurhurhur, I can only imagine Cody is fluffing out at this. X3 Bet he looks just like Jake did when he caught Zach with his cousin, only again, fluffier. >X3
Hurhurhur, I can only imagine Cody is fluffing out at this. X3 Bet he looks just like Jake did when he caught Zach with his cousin, only again, fluffier. >X3
LOL
Yeah, Todd's first kiss with another male... and it's his best friend uncle! Sure, he doesn't know about that little detail yet... but it's still awkward XD
Although that's not what's bothering him right now... ^.^
Meh, Vlad still won't reach his goal that way... he's too bold. Does not work with Americans ;-D
Yeah, Todd's first kiss with another male... and it's his best friend uncle! Sure, he doesn't know about that little detail yet... but it's still awkward XD
Although that's not what's bothering him right now... ^.^
Meh, Vlad still won't reach his goal that way... he's too bold. Does not work with Americans ;-D
The more well known Vlad was known as an evil dictator and tyrant but was still a highly regarded military strategist and I can see that this Vlad shares some similar strategies and is also evil in his own right hah. Surely though he'll get more than a kiss for 300 bucks though, otherwise this would make Todd a really high cost call-boy hah!
We are performing Alexander Nevsky by Prokofiev in the Milwaukee Symphony and it's in Russian. I get so distracted during rehearsals while our Russian diction coach goes over pronunciations with us because I keep thinking of Vlad talking.
I'm going to work on my Russian accent so the next time I see Vince I will be in my massive, musclebear fursuit and will taunt him by speaking to him as a big Russian burr.
I'm going to work on my Russian accent so the next time I see Vince I will be in my massive, musclebear fursuit and will taunt him by speaking to him as a big Russian burr.
(Eez oll eye vant, kömrayd.)
meanwhile, todd hasn't yet realized that he has so far interacted with two different people with the same accent.
i wonder how todd's going to feel knowing he'd also locked lips with a ... significantly older gentleman.
who also "eez relations" with his best friend.
i kinda hope that vlad won't get his target (if cody himself couldn't!!)..
..but maybe instead, a Bespectacled Cougar shall make vlad's acquaintance?
(i mean, i do want vlad to bump nasties with someone...)
meanwhile, todd hasn't yet realized that he has so far interacted with two different people with the same accent.
i wonder how todd's going to feel knowing he'd also locked lips with a ... significantly older gentleman.
who also "eez relations" with his best friend.
i kinda hope that vlad won't get his target (if cody himself couldn't!!)..
..but maybe instead, a Bespectacled Cougar shall make vlad's acquaintance?
(i mean, i do want vlad to bump nasties with someone...)
Well, at least they're not the same species
What? It's not like he's going to kiss Cody now XD
I can guarantee something's going to happen offscreen. I've said too much
I was assuming Georgiy is still at the bar. Although now that I think about it, maybe not, since he looks too much like Cody XD
What? It's not like he's going to kiss Cody now XD
I can guarantee something's going to happen offscreen. I've said too much
I was assuming Georgiy is still at the bar. Although now that I think about it, maybe not, since he looks too much like Cody XD
at least they're not the same species.
.
luckily, cody already has a certain "horny companion" anyway so cody doesn't (necessarily) need to concern himself with who smooches his tiger pal..
..i cannot wait for this weekend's installment(s), and am wondering what shall occur "off-screen," veensynt.
i do not assume that yeorrrgei is still at the bar because i have not felt an overwhelming sense of "aww i want to hug this guy, take him home with me, and exchange snuggles for Baked Goods" in several weeks.
.
please bring cody's "75% doppelganger" georgiy back — we miss him!
.
luckily, cody already has a certain "horny companion" anyway so cody doesn't (necessarily) need to concern himself with who smooches his tiger pal..
..i cannot wait for this weekend's installment(s), and am wondering what shall occur "off-screen," veensynt.
i do not assume that yeorrrgei is still at the bar because i have not felt an overwhelming sense of "aww i want to hug this guy, take him home with me, and exchange snuggles for Baked Goods" in several weeks.
.
please bring cody's "75% doppelganger" georgiy back — we miss him!
Since no one said it, it falls to me to say it: IT'S A TRAP.
And... yeah. o.o On one hand, it is pretty interesting to note what Todd may do for monetary addition to his funds, but on the other hand... it really, really worries me if there's going to be a time where this nature of his is going to get him in some serious deep trouble.
Either way, the follow up is going to be pretty damn interesting, I gotta say.
*grabs some popcorn, settles in*
And... yeah. o.o On one hand, it is pretty interesting to note what Todd may do for monetary addition to his funds, but on the other hand... it really, really worries me if there's going to be a time where this nature of his is going to get him in some serious deep trouble.
Either way, the follow up is going to be pretty damn interesting, I gotta say.
*grabs some popcorn, settles in*
.....................
I...really don't know what to say. On the one hand, this makes sense as the way Vlad thought he could get anywhere with a guy he knows is straight--basically a combination of trickery and blackmail, and taking advantage of Todd's desperation. On the other hand, this really, really makes Todd look bad. Sure it was just one kiss, but at the same time he's doing something with another guy, when everything prior to now indicated he never would, not even if it got him somewhere with a girl. If he really would do this, that makes him seem a lot less likable, and a lot more trashy, than we were led to believe--being set up to look like he was doing something with Cody and Jeff is one thing, but this? Not to mention he's doing it for money (albeit to get the champagne) which isn't that different from being a prostitute. And he's doing it because he really wants to get somewhere with Sveti. So...a guy who previously would never do anything with another guy, now will just to get with a girl, because All Men Are Perverts?
Completely aside from how Todd will react to the second kiss, or to finding out Vlad is Cody's uncle, there's what he'll do once he finds out Sveti had no intention of doing anything with him and the whole thing was a ploy so Vlad could have his way with him...so he made out with a guy for nothing.
I'm sure this is all just more of you being an evil fox, giving fanservice to the readers and teasing them with something so many want (gay/bi Todd), in which case it won't go beyond this. (At least it had better not.) But still...this really, really tramples all over what you established before about Todd's character, so that either you're going back on your word that he would never do anything male-male, or you're revealing him to be a lot more shallow than he appeared.
Either way...I know this is supposed to just be a silly comic not to be taken seriously, but...I feel really, really uncomfortable about this and where you are taking it.
(Side note: Good to see you explaining where Karl and Cody disappeared to, and why.)
I...really don't know what to say. On the one hand, this makes sense as the way Vlad thought he could get anywhere with a guy he knows is straight--basically a combination of trickery and blackmail, and taking advantage of Todd's desperation. On the other hand, this really, really makes Todd look bad. Sure it was just one kiss, but at the same time he's doing something with another guy, when everything prior to now indicated he never would, not even if it got him somewhere with a girl. If he really would do this, that makes him seem a lot less likable, and a lot more trashy, than we were led to believe--being set up to look like he was doing something with Cody and Jeff is one thing, but this? Not to mention he's doing it for money (albeit to get the champagne) which isn't that different from being a prostitute. And he's doing it because he really wants to get somewhere with Sveti. So...a guy who previously would never do anything with another guy, now will just to get with a girl, because All Men Are Perverts?
Completely aside from how Todd will react to the second kiss, or to finding out Vlad is Cody's uncle, there's what he'll do once he finds out Sveti had no intention of doing anything with him and the whole thing was a ploy so Vlad could have his way with him...so he made out with a guy for nothing.
I'm sure this is all just more of you being an evil fox, giving fanservice to the readers and teasing them with something so many want (gay/bi Todd), in which case it won't go beyond this. (At least it had better not.) But still...this really, really tramples all over what you established before about Todd's character, so that either you're going back on your word that he would never do anything male-male, or you're revealing him to be a lot more shallow than he appeared.
Either way...I know this is supposed to just be a silly comic not to be taken seriously, but...I feel really, really uncomfortable about this and where you are taking it.
(Side note: Good to see you explaining where Karl and Cody disappeared to, and why.)
I don't think it's particularly out of character for Todd. So you're saying if Cody had offered him $300 in high school for a kiss in exchange for a girl, he wouldn't have done it? The situation had never been framed that way prior. Todd's kinda been shown to have poor impulse control.
Granted there's the creepy mysterious stranger bit, but Todd DID try to get away with the bare minimum.
And I did kinda alter Dev's script about putting them at the bar instead of at a table without asking, so yeah, we had to confer with how to reshuffle them when I got to later in the story ^ ^;;
Granted there's the creepy mysterious stranger bit, but Todd DID try to get away with the bare minimum.
And I did kinda alter Dev's script about putting them at the bar instead of at a table without asking, so yeah, we had to confer with how to reshuffle them when I got to later in the story ^ ^;;
I sort of agree with Nieve. Todd may be oversexed and impulsive, chapter 6 of iso illustrated that, but you've also consistently said that Todd is 100% straight (he could barely contain his laughter at the thought of him and Cody being an item),has no problem picking up women, and he has a bit more control over his hormones than Jake. A random stranger who's conveniently offering Todd exactly what he wants in exchange for briefly going gay doesn't seem like enough to override his heterosexuality.
Oh, don't feel bad. The reason you and a bunch of us are so invested into this discussion is because we went along with ISO for quite a while and thus became attached to the characters and stories. If we become so invested in it like this, I say it's a mark of a successful comic and writer.
And I agree with all your and Nieve's points. Yeah, Todd may be impulsive and young and aroused, but nothing throughout the whole run of ISO made me think that he'd even consider the tiniest possibility of doing anything with another guy. He's young, good looking, outgoing, likeable, someone who shouldn't have a problem hooking up with a cute girl. So to have him be so utterly desperate to hook up with a girl he just met not twenty minutes ago, to the point of giving a guy even a peck on the lips, it just seems so off.
As someone said above, did Todd not even consider the possibility of a kiss anywhere that wasn't the lips? Like a cheek, or the hand? And even not counting that part, there's the fact that at least one of his friends, Randall, is in there. This is moving into "Never Live It Down" territory if there are witnesses that are friends with him and won't ever let him forget this. Even if in the next page he does freak out and leaves or does anything that doesn't allow Vladimir to get away with his scheme, I just can't see Todd the same way anymore, which is a bummer.
And I agree with all your and Nieve's points. Yeah, Todd may be impulsive and young and aroused, but nothing throughout the whole run of ISO made me think that he'd even consider the tiniest possibility of doing anything with another guy. He's young, good looking, outgoing, likeable, someone who shouldn't have a problem hooking up with a cute girl. So to have him be so utterly desperate to hook up with a girl he just met not twenty minutes ago, to the point of giving a guy even a peck on the lips, it just seems so off.
As someone said above, did Todd not even consider the possibility of a kiss anywhere that wasn't the lips? Like a cheek, or the hand? And even not counting that part, there's the fact that at least one of his friends, Randall, is in there. This is moving into "Never Live It Down" territory if there are witnesses that are friends with him and won't ever let him forget this. Even if in the next page he does freak out and leaves or does anything that doesn't allow Vladimir to get away with his scheme, I just can't see Todd the same way anymore, which is a bummer.
No, but I'm sorry Vince: you may think this isn't out of character for him but it seems pretty clear that others besides me think it is. Sure, Todd has seemed impulsive before, particularly in issue 6, but not THIS impulsive. No, I would never have expected him to kiss Cody for $300 to use to woo a girl because you made it very clear that a) nothing would ever really happen between them, because of Todd finding the idea laughable if nothing else and b) he is 100% straight. As Exatron says below, the idea he would do this, even to get somewhere with his "perfect girl", is not at all in character with how you wrote him before--it doesn't matter it's just a kiss, it still is something he would never have been all right with. This, from the guy who was constantly freaking out and going "La la la!" whenever the subject of gay sex or anything male-male came up? Not to mention the fact you always told us Todd would never do such a thing, insisted he was straight, as a way to keep people from constantly wanting fanservice to drool over, only to now do this, seems...rather mean-spirited.
Basically, one of several things has happened here:
1) Todd was never like this, in which case you changing him to allow for such a thing is major Character Derailment
2) Todd was like this, but we never saw it because you didn't write it properly (say, for example, in the scene where Todd laughed about him and Cody doing anything, he could have said something like "The only way I'd ever even kiss you, let alone anything more, is if it was to impress a girl!")
3) Todd wasn't like this, or at least not to this extent, but you changed it/intensified it for Rule of Funny/fanservice, which is either selling out or failing to see the unfortunate implications of what you wrote
4) Todd was like this, and it's a major flaw in his character that makes it so I (and others) simply cannot like him anymore.
So it seems you're kind of screwed no matter which one it is. Obviously if things go any farther with Vlad and Todd that is majorly crossing the line...but even if it never goes farther than what you showed here, I am deeply troubled and upset. You and others can say "it's just a comic" or "it's just supposed to be for good clean fun", but the simple thing is, you either changed Todd (and not for the better) or you wrote him as an unlikable guy to begin with and this is just now coming out. And it isn't fun, or funny. Whether this is because you didn't see how this could be interpreted, or you just find different things funny, I don't know.
I'm just...deeply disappointed in you, Vince. I thought better of you. But either this is included solely for fanservice, in which case you've sold out, or this was always part of who Todd is...which suggests to me that you have fallen prey to believing All Men Are Perverts and that it's okay to excuse it with "I'm a Man, I Can't Help It!" And that's just...wrong. It'd be different if you were to say we aren't supposed to approve of this, that we should be angry with Todd or at least disappointed in him--though I'd still say that would go against what we were shown of him before. But you seem to be saying it IS okay...or that we should just ignore it as something done for the sake of comedy. And...I can't accept that. I'm sorry.
Basically, one of several things has happened here:
1) Todd was never like this, in which case you changing him to allow for such a thing is major Character Derailment
2) Todd was like this, but we never saw it because you didn't write it properly (say, for example, in the scene where Todd laughed about him and Cody doing anything, he could have said something like "The only way I'd ever even kiss you, let alone anything more, is if it was to impress a girl!")
3) Todd wasn't like this, or at least not to this extent, but you changed it/intensified it for Rule of Funny/fanservice, which is either selling out or failing to see the unfortunate implications of what you wrote
4) Todd was like this, and it's a major flaw in his character that makes it so I (and others) simply cannot like him anymore.
So it seems you're kind of screwed no matter which one it is. Obviously if things go any farther with Vlad and Todd that is majorly crossing the line...but even if it never goes farther than what you showed here, I am deeply troubled and upset. You and others can say "it's just a comic" or "it's just supposed to be for good clean fun", but the simple thing is, you either changed Todd (and not for the better) or you wrote him as an unlikable guy to begin with and this is just now coming out. And it isn't fun, or funny. Whether this is because you didn't see how this could be interpreted, or you just find different things funny, I don't know.
I'm just...deeply disappointed in you, Vince. I thought better of you. But either this is included solely for fanservice, in which case you've sold out, or this was always part of who Todd is...which suggests to me that you have fallen prey to believing All Men Are Perverts and that it's okay to excuse it with "I'm a Man, I Can't Help It!" And that's just...wrong. It'd be different if you were to say we aren't supposed to approve of this, that we should be angry with Todd or at least disappointed in him--though I'd still say that would go against what we were shown of him before. But you seem to be saying it IS okay...or that we should just ignore it as something done for the sake of comedy. And...I can't accept that. I'm sorry.
It is possible, but with no indication at all that this was the case, it comes across as a total retcon of his character--and not one that paints him in a favorable light. You also make a good case below that surely Todd would have experimented before now if he was okay with it. Basically, either he was never okay with it until after Cody came out, in which case he sure got over his freak-outs quickly (again I emphasize we haven't been told how long after ISO this takes place), or he was always okay with it and the whole way he acted toward Cody was either playing up the "squick" for humor or because Cody was his best friend so it felt too weird to him. That last doesn't sound too bad, except again there was no real indication of this until now.
Anyway, my problem still is more that Todd is basically okay with whoring himself to a guy to get a girl. And that him being okay with male-male stuff smells of accommodating fanservice when Vince said he'd never do that and Todd was 100% straight. However, the fact he isn't actually writing this makes it more palatable (and explains both the sudden change and the fanservice). I still don't like what it says about Todd's character or how it makes me feel, but knowing this isn't how Vince would have chosen to explore or reveal it makes me feel better. And if in the end it turns out to be too off-putting, nothing says this is even canon or can't be disregarded. :P
Anyway, my problem still is more that Todd is basically okay with whoring himself to a guy to get a girl. And that him being okay with male-male stuff smells of accommodating fanservice when Vince said he'd never do that and Todd was 100% straight. However, the fact he isn't actually writing this makes it more palatable (and explains both the sudden change and the fanservice). I still don't like what it says about Todd's character or how it makes me feel, but knowing this isn't how Vince would have chosen to explore or reveal it makes me feel better. And if in the end it turns out to be too off-putting, nothing says this is even canon or can't be disregarded. :P
The fact several people (not just me) were bothered by this, found it OOC, or even were made uncomfortable and uneasy, suggests that something in the writing went too far (albeit unintentionally) to thus undermine the fun. To put it another way, you didn't seem to be finding it fun (you said yourself it made you more uncomfortable the more you thought about it) and I don't think anyone else who is bothered by it is either.
Or, I suppose, this is yet another example of criticism and honest opinions not being allowed, and I should just keep my big fat mouth shut.
Or, I suppose, this is yet another example of criticism and honest opinions not being allowed, and I should just keep my big fat mouth shut.
Yeah, Todd fluffs out at gay sex. SEX. From my experience, a lot of men are all "well, it's cool that you love a dude, but...I don't get how you put it...in THERE?" Todd generally doesn't freak out until it's obvious sex is the topic (playing video games, he was quite calm about it until Cody hinted they'd gone all the way), and in fact ribbed Cody for NOT kissing Doug. Vlad made it clear he was bargaining for a kiss only, regardless of whether he was angling for more. No grope or anything, I purposely kept both his hands visible. And it's pretty obvious Todd isn't thrilled with the second kiss.
My thought on the matter is that he's known about Cody's orientation for about a year at this point (it's an indeterminate amount of time after the prior story ended), and thus a good number of Cody's gay friends for months. Personally, I think it would make Todd look like FAR more of an asshole to be all "eew, gay kisses are grody!" at this point. I doubt the subject has come up with Cody, who respects their friendship, but I wouldn't put it past someone else (particularly Trevor) to have given Todd a good peck in the interim, and I certainly hope Todd now knows he doesn't have to rush off to the doctor for shots afterwards. My point is, heaven forbid, Todd may have learned to mellow out a touch over time.
Ditto for Randall, although I guess that's more Remmy's point.
So, the moral of your story is people can NEVER get used to having gay friends, kissing is the same as sex, and one's character is completely defined by one act. Got it, awesome!
BTW, I didn't write this. I've stated explicitly that I will never write a comic again. Not that I'm assigning blame, but with guest authors there are bound to be different interpretations. I can't say every plot point in the other guest stories would've been my first choice, but I let them have creative liberties anyway. Or I would've written it myself.
My thought on the matter is that he's known about Cody's orientation for about a year at this point (it's an indeterminate amount of time after the prior story ended), and thus a good number of Cody's gay friends for months. Personally, I think it would make Todd look like FAR more of an asshole to be all "eew, gay kisses are grody!" at this point. I doubt the subject has come up with Cody, who respects their friendship, but I wouldn't put it past someone else (particularly Trevor) to have given Todd a good peck in the interim, and I certainly hope Todd now knows he doesn't have to rush off to the doctor for shots afterwards. My point is, heaven forbid, Todd may have learned to mellow out a touch over time.
Ditto for Randall, although I guess that's more Remmy's point.
So, the moral of your story is people can NEVER get used to having gay friends, kissing is the same as sex, and one's character is completely defined by one act. Got it, awesome!
BTW, I didn't write this. I've stated explicitly that I will never write a comic again. Not that I'm assigning blame, but with guest authors there are bound to be different interpretations. I can't say every plot point in the other guest stories would've been my first choice, but I let them have creative liberties anyway. Or I would've written it myself.
This is where I disagree with Nieve. It's not as out of character as he says, but it's enough to pull me out of the story with a "wait, what just happened?"
I would have expected Todd to have already experimented, if he was ever going to do so (and I have no problem with that notion), and decided that kissing other guys really wasn't for him. And not in a freaking out way, but more of a firm, polite, and absolute "That's really not for me" sort of way.
I would have expected Todd to have already experimented, if he was ever going to do so (and I have no problem with that notion), and decided that kissing other guys really wasn't for him. And not in a freaking out way, but more of a firm, polite, and absolute "That's really not for me" sort of way.
I don't think Nieve means that a kiss is the same as sex. I'm sure Todd wouldn't mind to see any of his gay friends smooching, but nothing we ever read in ISO indicated that he'd willingly kiss another man for any reason, at least from what I remember. The fact that he's doing it just for the chance to boink a girl he met 15 minutes ago makes it all the more jarring, because like I said, I'm sure he doesn't exactly have problems picking up girls, so this makes him look shallow and desperate, which are not good traits.
Also, even if you made it clear in this page that Vladimir only bargained for a kiss and kept his hands visible and only touched Todd's face, let's not forget that he also made it explicitely clear that his intention is, and pardon my French, to shove his cock all the way up Todd's ass. So even if he's not being gropey here and only bargained for a kiss, we've yet to see just how far he's willing to go to fuck a straight guy, which considering his profession and his personality, makes for a scary prospect.
See now, the thing is that we got plenty of time to get to know these ISO characters in their enviroment, their personalities and their interactions with others. It's no different than people who watch a tv series or read a series of books or novels, they become attached to the characters overtime, it happens a lot. So to see them doing things we as viewers/readers never thought we'd see them do is quite the shock, and that's why we take it so seriously, because we've spent so much time becoming attached to these characters, and when they do something so shocking, we may feel that our time getting to know them and become attached to them got wasted.
And I completely forgot you had said you'd never write anymore, so the fact that this was written by someone else is certainly a surprise to me. Makes me woner too if it's the guest writer who created Vladimir and Georgiy or if they were your own creations. But even if you didn't write this, they're still your characters, so you do have a say in what you think they should and shouldn't do. Though it's pretty clear that you're loving this story, so hey, opinions be what they be. Just rather relieved that I'm not the only person who's not really enjoying this, that'd made me look worse. >_>
Also, even if you made it clear in this page that Vladimir only bargained for a kiss and kept his hands visible and only touched Todd's face, let's not forget that he also made it explicitely clear that his intention is, and pardon my French, to shove his cock all the way up Todd's ass. So even if he's not being gropey here and only bargained for a kiss, we've yet to see just how far he's willing to go to fuck a straight guy, which considering his profession and his personality, makes for a scary prospect.
See now, the thing is that we got plenty of time to get to know these ISO characters in their enviroment, their personalities and their interactions with others. It's no different than people who watch a tv series or read a series of books or novels, they become attached to the characters overtime, it happens a lot. So to see them doing things we as viewers/readers never thought we'd see them do is quite the shock, and that's why we take it so seriously, because we've spent so much time becoming attached to these characters, and when they do something so shocking, we may feel that our time getting to know them and become attached to them got wasted.
And I completely forgot you had said you'd never write anymore, so the fact that this was written by someone else is certainly a surprise to me. Makes me woner too if it's the guest writer who created Vladimir and Georgiy or if they were your own creations. But even if you didn't write this, they're still your characters, so you do have a say in what you think they should and shouldn't do. Though it's pretty clear that you're loving this story, so hey, opinions be what they be. Just rather relieved that I'm not the only person who's not really enjoying this, that'd made me look worse. >_>
I see you are ignoring the main thrust of my issue with this development in order to focus on one thing and blow it out of proportion. Nice, awesome.
Never once did I say that Todd could not grow and change, become all right with his gay friends kissing and being otherwise demonstrative around him, or no longer freak out about such things any more. (Also, note that you have never once given an exact notion of when this comic takes place in relation to ISO proper, so we have no idea how long it's really been and how much time Todd has had to mature and change his opinions and reactions.) You're right, he could, and if he did, more power to him.
But that isn't my issue. My issue is a) the fact there was never any indication prior to this that Todd would be okay with such things, so that it comes out of nowhere and much more importantly b) the fact he is doing this, not because he's secretly bi, or has become okay with male-male stuff even to the point of being able to kiss or be kissed, but solely to get money so as to impress a girl he wants to bed. Yes, Vlad has not yet implied to Todd that he wants more and intends to pursue it, though the reader knows he does, and I am sure that not only will Cody and Karl react badly to what just happened, so will Todd. But that isn't the point: the point is that Todd has revealed he's okay with doing something like this, for money, because he's so desperate to get with a girl. What else might he be willing to do--especially if he has indeed become as accepting and open toward male-male stuff as you say he has? It really doesn't say anything good about his character. Even being okay with male-male stuff seems not so admirable if he's okay with it with a complete stranger but not with his own best friend.
In any event...let me end this by saying two more things. First, I wasn't aware either that you were not the actual writer of this comic, just a collaborator in the idea process (and obviously the artist). While I am a bit puzzled why you're okay with other people writing your characters and making changes in them which you state are not what you would have done, or at least not expressed the way you would have expressed it, that is your choice and I am at least glad that this indicates these developments are not, in fact, yours or how you originally conceived of the characters.
Secondly, I am merely exercising my right to express my opinion, and specifically to criticize the direction the plot is going or the way it's been written. It was not meant to be an attack on you personally, and I am sorry if I came across too strongly. When I said I was disappointed in you, it was only because I hold you in the highest regard when it comes to storytelling, and I believe you capable of great things--so my words were meant only to convey that I was upset at what seemed, in my opinion, to be not living up to your usual standards. That's all. It was me trying to say where I personally believed things had gone wrong, so you would be made aware of points you might not have considered and thus improve your writing in the future.
I don't hate you, I'm not mad at you, and I hope we can move past this and still be friends. I just didn't feel right not saying anything when I felt the writing/plot wasn't being handled with care and realism. I have always been honest with you in the past when something seemed off, didn't feel good or in-character, and I don't see any reason to stop now. If even after this comic is finished I decide it is not a good story, that won't affect my future desires to see your art. I hope you can understand.
To put it simpler: the comic bothered me and made me feel ill at ease, and now you know why. The fact you didn't actually write this eases my mind, if that makes you feel any better.
Never once did I say that Todd could not grow and change, become all right with his gay friends kissing and being otherwise demonstrative around him, or no longer freak out about such things any more. (Also, note that you have never once given an exact notion of when this comic takes place in relation to ISO proper, so we have no idea how long it's really been and how much time Todd has had to mature and change his opinions and reactions.) You're right, he could, and if he did, more power to him.
But that isn't my issue. My issue is a) the fact there was never any indication prior to this that Todd would be okay with such things, so that it comes out of nowhere and much more importantly b) the fact he is doing this, not because he's secretly bi, or has become okay with male-male stuff even to the point of being able to kiss or be kissed, but solely to get money so as to impress a girl he wants to bed. Yes, Vlad has not yet implied to Todd that he wants more and intends to pursue it, though the reader knows he does, and I am sure that not only will Cody and Karl react badly to what just happened, so will Todd. But that isn't the point: the point is that Todd has revealed he's okay with doing something like this, for money, because he's so desperate to get with a girl. What else might he be willing to do--especially if he has indeed become as accepting and open toward male-male stuff as you say he has? It really doesn't say anything good about his character. Even being okay with male-male stuff seems not so admirable if he's okay with it with a complete stranger but not with his own best friend.
In any event...let me end this by saying two more things. First, I wasn't aware either that you were not the actual writer of this comic, just a collaborator in the idea process (and obviously the artist). While I am a bit puzzled why you're okay with other people writing your characters and making changes in them which you state are not what you would have done, or at least not expressed the way you would have expressed it, that is your choice and I am at least glad that this indicates these developments are not, in fact, yours or how you originally conceived of the characters.
Secondly, I am merely exercising my right to express my opinion, and specifically to criticize the direction the plot is going or the way it's been written. It was not meant to be an attack on you personally, and I am sorry if I came across too strongly. When I said I was disappointed in you, it was only because I hold you in the highest regard when it comes to storytelling, and I believe you capable of great things--so my words were meant only to convey that I was upset at what seemed, in my opinion, to be not living up to your usual standards. That's all. It was me trying to say where I personally believed things had gone wrong, so you would be made aware of points you might not have considered and thus improve your writing in the future.
I don't hate you, I'm not mad at you, and I hope we can move past this and still be friends. I just didn't feel right not saying anything when I felt the writing/plot wasn't being handled with care and realism. I have always been honest with you in the past when something seemed off, didn't feel good or in-character, and I don't see any reason to stop now. If even after this comic is finished I decide it is not a good story, that won't affect my future desires to see your art. I hope you can understand.
To put it simpler: the comic bothered me and made me feel ill at ease, and now you know why. The fact you didn't actually write this eases my mind, if that makes you feel any better.
Nnnno, the only person blowing things out of proportion here is you, seeing as how, as noted, there are a number of people raising their eyebrows here and nobody else has been "deeply disappointed" in me. People have stated their opinion, I've replied simply, and everything's been fine with agreeing to disagree. In fact, this thread STARTED that way until you had to keep pushing.
I haven't actually solified the timing, but since Karl has lost considerable weight since being seen last, it's pretty obvious it's not immediately after the final i.s.o. story.
And what kind of indications are you wanting? Big neon signs? That he should have explictly stated OMG IN THE FUTURE IF A GUY WANTS TO KISS ME THAT'S A-BLOODY OKAY? No, seriously. I'd like to see how you feel that could be accomplished smoothly in a story.
As far as whoring himself out, :shrug:, I've not debated that point.
Okay, I've re-read my earlier posts, and I can see the ambiguity of the authorship, but I thought I'd at least made it pretty clear to beta readers that I was through with writing.
Nobody's said you have no right to your opinion, and as it's been pointed out, there's been a number of people who agree with said opinion. But when you start tossing around phrases like "I thought better of you", then expect someone to get defensive. Plus, I'm also free to state MY opinion that you're out of line and making something out of nothing.
And I'm officially sick of this discussion, so I'm ending it here before I get sick of the comic.
I haven't actually solified the timing, but since Karl has lost considerable weight since being seen last, it's pretty obvious it's not immediately after the final i.s.o. story.
And what kind of indications are you wanting? Big neon signs? That he should have explictly stated OMG IN THE FUTURE IF A GUY WANTS TO KISS ME THAT'S A-BLOODY OKAY? No, seriously. I'd like to see how you feel that could be accomplished smoothly in a story.
As far as whoring himself out, :shrug:, I've not debated that point.
Okay, I've re-read my earlier posts, and I can see the ambiguity of the authorship, but I thought I'd at least made it pretty clear to beta readers that I was through with writing.
Nobody's said you have no right to your opinion, and as it's been pointed out, there's been a number of people who agree with said opinion. But when you start tossing around phrases like "I thought better of you", then expect someone to get defensive. Plus, I'm also free to state MY opinion that you're out of line and making something out of nothing.
And I'm officially sick of this discussion, so I'm ending it here before I get sick of the comic.
Since you weren't the actual writer, I can't actually be disappointed in you now, can I? And I already apologized for being too blunt... But again, I am sorry for making those statements.
Thank you for explaining your stance; I wasn't sure what you were saying, if anything, about what Todd was doing (whoring himself) or whether we should approve of it. You were making jokes about it, but that didn't necessarily suggest you approved of it.
Anyway, fine, let's agree to disagree. Discussion closed.
Thank you for explaining your stance; I wasn't sure what you were saying, if anything, about what Todd was doing (whoring himself) or whether we should approve of it. You were making jokes about it, but that didn't necessarily suggest you approved of it.
Anyway, fine, let's agree to disagree. Discussion closed.
Cody and his dad must be fluffed up like pom-poms while the last panel is happening. O.K., so Vlad got his kiss. Now what? I can't see Todd going farther than this but I don't think Vlad is done yet. Maybe he'll say "Vas, as you say, 'no big dealio', da? Pretty girl put me up on it, as joke, to see how muchly you vant to go vit her." Maybe Cody will wake up on the last page: "So...it was all a dream? Just a dream."
Am I the only one who thinks this is completely IN-character for Todd?
I know straight guys who've gone to a lot greater lengths to score with girls, especially girls they were immensely attracted to.
I have friends who sat through all three Twilight movies in the name of furthering relations with outstandingly attractive females. Surely a 2-second kiss is an easier way out? It's a kiss, FFS. You exchange more germs shaking hands. Are we 5?
For the record, I'm not particularly whorish, but if I had a shot at The Perfect Guy - a burly, broad-shouldered, chin-strapped hyena, for instance - I would make out with a girl for TWENTY FREAKING MINUTES if I thought it would get me further. I mean, the chance is there. Why spend the rest of your lift regretting NOT taking it? What kind of loser would have that opportunity in his hands and just fucking throw it away?
Poor impulse control maybe, but that doesn't make me a terrible person worth lamenting. Jebus Cripes. Judgemental much?
Now, openly accusing someone of selling out and writing a story solely for fanservice...THAT'D be the sort of thing I could understand getting worked up over.
I think you need to clean house around here. There's a big difference between criticism and judging the shit out of you. And you're getting it worse than I did - they just railed on my characters. For the most part they left ME out of it.
I know straight guys who've gone to a lot greater lengths to score with girls, especially girls they were immensely attracted to.
I have friends who sat through all three Twilight movies in the name of furthering relations with outstandingly attractive females. Surely a 2-second kiss is an easier way out? It's a kiss, FFS. You exchange more germs shaking hands. Are we 5?
For the record, I'm not particularly whorish, but if I had a shot at The Perfect Guy - a burly, broad-shouldered, chin-strapped hyena, for instance - I would make out with a girl for TWENTY FREAKING MINUTES if I thought it would get me further. I mean, the chance is there. Why spend the rest of your lift regretting NOT taking it? What kind of loser would have that opportunity in his hands and just fucking throw it away?
Poor impulse control maybe, but that doesn't make me a terrible person worth lamenting. Jebus Cripes. Judgemental much?
Now, openly accusing someone of selling out and writing a story solely for fanservice...THAT'D be the sort of thing I could understand getting worked up over.
I think you need to clean house around here. There's a big difference between criticism and judging the shit out of you. And you're getting it worse than I did - they just railed on my characters. For the most part they left ME out of it.
THANK YOU.
You make a very good point, which I agree with whole-heartedly. (Late to the comment party here. Oy vey.)
I have no problem with what's been going on, or where it might go. Its a story FFS, and we all know Vince. And even if this is being written by somebody else, it is a tad early to be dishing out judgement left and right like has been going on. Amusing as it is to witness, it is rather off-putting I have to say. People need to stop getting their panties in a bunch.
You make a very good point, which I agree with whole-heartedly. (Late to the comment party here. Oy vey.)
I have no problem with what's been going on, or where it might go. Its a story FFS, and we all know Vince. And even if this is being written by somebody else, it is a tad early to be dishing out judgement left and right like has been going on. Amusing as it is to witness, it is rather off-putting I have to say. People need to stop getting their panties in a bunch.
I have a bigger problem with people thinking a kind-of-dumb straight guy doing stupid things to score is OUT OF CHARACTER. (and apparently kissing a guy, in order to get pussy, counts as "experimentation with men")
but i guess that's what happens when you substitute memorizing TV Tropes for interaction with actual human beings.
but i guess that's what happens when you substitute memorizing TV Tropes for interaction with actual human beings.
Uh-huh. Well, this is something I didn't see coming. Both in the comic and in the comment fest brought on. Christ people, chill out some. See, this is why we can't have nice things, and why authors and artists end up put off from doing new shit. Its one thing to comment and express an opinion, but seriously, dial that shit back. Have some tact. Personally, I'm intrigued with where this is going, and I like the reality factor of people doing stuff that's not exactly wholesome, because, guess what, big surprise, that happens in real life. That's life. And this comic is about things that happen, which just happen to include funny, and far out events, with a nice helping of sexyness. So how about we put on our big boy pants, play nice, and be grateful that V is working on this project (which is A LOT of hard work) and that we're getting to see something new, instead of whining about this new stuff not reflecting on our particular views about this or that character, mkay?
Pity things took this turn V, I am sorry you had to deal with this. Kinda sorry also for Dev, but enh, what to do, right? I look forward to whatever does happen next. :3
Pity things took this turn V, I am sorry you had to deal with this. Kinda sorry also for Dev, but enh, what to do, right? I look forward to whatever does happen next. :3
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