So is the admin who made the mistake and didn't attempt to contact the users before taking action going to be disciplined in any way?

I think the admin had good intentions, but the issue is that we need to be contacting users period. If we're going to remove images, or ban, we need to make every attempt to contact the user first. If the user refuses to work with us, or ignores us, that's a different issue.

What happened here is not the admin's fault, because of what happened previously. However, if we had made the attempt to contact the user's and relay the info... this wouldn't have happened. So I'm not blaming the admin, but blaming the process. The process is mine, and that needs to change completely.

So that's what we'll be focusing on. Fixing the communication problem.

Ok but then what about all the stuff that wasn't in violation of the rules in the first place?

I mean this in the best possible way, but making communication between admins and users as clear as possible should have been a top priority for everyone on the staff from day one. :/

It's good that you're trying to get that sorted out now at least. And I highly approve of clarifying the AUP in all aspects, not just the photography portions. =p

Was the deletion of Fender's picture a process issue or an admin issue?

Admin issue.

So, yeah, I had my own stuff removed. I'm bitter, but I'd rather focus on fixing the issue.

heheh, it is kinda funny how an admin would action the site owner... did they know that you and fender are basically one and the same?

you'd think they'd realize that you are well aware of the rules yourself and would behave accordingly.

I can understand taking responsibility for the actions and admitting fault. You run the site and take responsibility for your admins. Personally, I respect that. However, the admin DID make mistakes and started removing pictures that were NOT against the rules. That was THEIR fault and not yours. I believe that the admin should admit fault, take responsibility and should be disciplined for their actions.

You can not be expected to oversee the sight at every given time of day, which is why you have your team of admins to help you. You can not be expected to take responsibility for everything that happens.

I love that you will be enhancing communication. That has always been something I have been very big on at my jobs. Without communication, I have no idea what needs to be done, who needs what, or where improvements can be made. I would like to make a suggestion (assuming that it is not already done), every admin should share phone numbers with each other. In case anything happens on the site and you need to contact someone, this should make communication a lot easier and hopefully will help resolve issues quicker.

On that same note, you should allow users to have personal information included on the site in case an admin needs to contact them. I know that not everyone would be willing to list their information, this could be included optionally but hidden from regular users.

It does seem that increasing the communication should help resolve a LOT of the issues here. I've been an admin/mod before, I know how painful it can be. No one will ever acknowledge all the good you do for the site, but they will shout all the mistakes you make. I know that you and Sciggles work hard on making sure this site is functioning properly. So while no one else may say it as often as they should, I would like to toss it out there for you.

Thank you for resolving these issues as quickly as possible and for doing your best with the site. It's not an easy job and I appreciate the effort you put forth.

I have to agree with you. Being granted the title of 'admin' doesn't also automatically bestow some form of omniscience about everything that happens on the site at all times. I don't know why people think that it does.

You've claimed for years that you intend to improve communication.

It hasn't happened. Not only are the users left in the dark about things all too often for far too long, but you get cases like this happening, the left hand not knowing what the right is doing, sometimes going so far as inconsistent application of policy because the admins don't communicate with each other.

At this point, all I can say is I'll believe it when I see it, and not a day before.

^This.

^ This of the ^This above this ^This.

In other words, I approve what the person above me is approving.

^ Yup

"If we're going to remove images, or ban, we need to make every attempt to contact the user first."

Tell that to the admin who removed a submission of mine recently. "Shoot first, ask questions never" seems to be FA's policy. :P

Good question. :P

^ this here.

It seems reasonably safe to assume that there were timestamps regarding the previous contact 6 months ago, and that the communication had stagnated and needed to be started fresh again.
It might seem severe, but that admin conducted business in a way that showed they don't know what level of force to use at what point in the admin process.

Not sure that it's even you who should be apologizing ultimately unless you're planning to revoke that person's admin status, y'know? If that person is going to retain admin status, they should own up to the goof personally.

sweet bajeebus

i personally just hope the ban will be taken off from their heads and that you guys will talk about it all

those two are amazing and great guys that i love to fursuit around with when i see them at Ac or just chat through fa.
i really don't think it's their style to do stuff just to bother people.

I removed the ban this morning when I found out about it, as once I found out about the first issue... it set the second admin up for an issue that wasn't exactly there fault. It was a communication problem with a former site admin.

When the bans were lifted, I noticed that Dershep is still suspended, even though Howiepup isn't anymore. I understand both accounts are by the same person, though it occurs to me that you may have forgotten to lift the ban on his other account, as well.

Fixed! I did not know they had more than one account.

Glad I can help.

"The rules are not as clear as they should be"

You don't say...

We've already completely re-written the Terms of Service and Code of Conduct with aims at making them as clear as they can be. The AUP was next on the list, and was going to be revised this week.

The prohibition against running raffles in journals (I seem to remember there having been one previously) seems to have disappeared in this rewrite. Was that intentional?

could there be a way to include that photos of cars and motorcycles are allowed... if they are labeled as such.. I was suspended over that a month back

^ THIS

Why does it seem like anything goes to shit when the head guy is indisposed? It's like one of those universal laws or something.

If you're going to comment on my journals please be respectful. I understand you may disagree with the situation, but name calling is NOT permitted. The Code of Conduct still applies.

I say this merely as a joke but...


"Owner's gone! Mess things up!"

kid logic then, yes? XD

That follow up was quick, wow

Oh boy, miscommunication or lack thereof. What a headache.

Also, as a show of good gesture, I do believe the original two people should have their slates completely cleaned so to speak. There was word about them having "prior warnings"?

Yes, and the warnings were valid, but a former admin had told them they were trying to make an exception... but it wasn't documented. So when the second admin came along, it made it look like the users ignored the first warning when they hadn't. It was an unfortunate incedent.

Are exceptions a good thing? Promoting favortism even to cool people leads to unfair practicies.

Agreed. Giving exceptions and picking favorites can reeeeeaaaaally screw with things, especially when it comes to banning or suspending.

Random Fur: "Oh no! So-and-so posted a picture I don't agree with!"
Random Admin: "Here, let me ban them for you.. I know you're always right because you're nice to me."

As much as I enjoy being on FA, and I know Dragoneer has worked hard getting it where it is now, I'd hate for something like this to happen and the site go to hell. =/

Case in point, my boyfriend was threatened in a note to me awhile back. The user that made the threat wasn't suspended, but he was because he made multiple accounts trying to talk to the person.

At least the user in question had sense enough to apologize properly. Still, the fact that one user got in shit while the other didn't just because of what seemed to be a popularity contest really irks me. Not enough to make me leave though. Really, the site is run by people and people make mistakes.

You'd be surprised at how often this very thing is the root of an argument/disagreement.

>.> I'm not, hahaha. I've run into this so many times at work.

Shit happens, just glad that things are being gotten to the bottom of.

Perhaps a revisit to the rules making it clear what is and isn't allowed.

I know there are rules and everything, but clarification does help.

Exactly, and that will be my focus going forward.

Fair enough, if anything in the fursuit section of the AUP it needs to be noted what does and doesn't count as sexually suggestive. That way it limits the number of users who stray over the lines on the AUP.

I know it sounds stupid, but if to help a community, sometimes simple approaches are best.

Perhaps this is my misunderstanding, but I thought that the rules were intentionally a little vague because they were supposed to allow for wiggle room? A little gray area where people don't have to worry about crossing that thin line in the sand or specifically doing something to skirt around it "because it wasn't documented to be against the rules". The idea that a little gray area gives both the users and the admins the ability to exercise judgement on a case-by-case basis and gives both a little more freedom because of it.

Thank God. Maybe this will quit blowing up twitter. lol

But good on ya for following up in a timely manner with this incident.

Well that was interesting, was going though most of the shit storm journal to journal
Anyways good luck with that

So when you say your going to remove all adult catorgeries, does that apply to photography only or everything else that under the adult spectrum of everything else? Because I'm little confuse on what you mean by that when you had it in parathensis. I just want to double check on that.

This is what I was going to ask. I've found the distinction in browsing helpful.

Basically, there are a lot of categories for art that have a basic and an adult version. We're trying to streamline that a bit better.

But that kinda doesn't answer my question. But I do like the sepreation of some of this stuff though, it helps to keep some things of where they should be. Because they really don't need to be group in one section. Then the users in question of who upload that kinda of stuff; should have allow some kind of custom thumbnail to warn others of content contain within it. But photography adult should of not allow from start though.

There's minimal different in searching for "Adult Paw" or "General Paw". You can use the search engine to better search for that, and we can probably find a way to just say "Search within this category" to make it more effecient.

So does that mean the browse thing is going to become obsolete? I don't know how this going to go over with some furs. But I like the way I want to search for certain thing it set up that way. So that way I can just go to that certain thing in a certain area. Not have to browse a lot of pictures and hope it is the right one. The search is fine, but to keep typing the same over and over again is a hassle. With the way it setup in browse is easy for me to go through and not have a hassle of time. I hope the update you do with the system keeps some aspects of browse section with it. But something tells this is not going sit well with some furs.

no, it's just emaning when a submission goes to get submitted that furry-tame v furry-adult difference will be removed, since we already have a "general/mature/adult" setting as it is.

that's what he was talking abotu :)

I think I still prefer it that way with second option added for a little more security. It still best to keep them seprate in some way for safety reason. Sometimes I wonder if this site has no captain and going as she pleases.

there's also the NSFW browsing method, and disabiling mature/adult images as well for that reason. hell, most people don't even use those categories anyway these days <<' (the former topic tags.)


so it's basically getting less used to near-neglection. i can see why they may be nuking some of the options personally. :)

Doesn't mean its fail safe. I still have my doubts. I rather be safe, then sorry. Because doesn't know when one can exploit a loophole with these things. Atleast with some of stuff it can be double guard againist some of this stuff. Let hope keywords stay around.

Why is there the whole category for tame and adult anyway? People already tag pictures as general, mature or adult to begin with O.o
I've always wondered about this.

The point of it that I can figure out was so that people who wanted to look at say... cartoony/cute things could hit the tame section, while the harder sides of some fetishes were in the adult section. That and faster access to porn. *nodnod*

that's exactly what it was actually^ :)

But what if someone were to tag their drawing as say 'pokemon(tame)' but then tagged the picture as 'adult', how would that make any sense? or 'general furry(adult)' but tag as 'general' ó_ó

I've seen a couple of submissions that were marked as adult, but they were clean (or clean enough) for general rating. It's either to mess around or to prevent guests from viewing other people's art (because you can't view mature/adult labeled art as a guest - kind of like an FA exclusive piece I suppose).

That's actually an interesting idea from hiding your work from guests, never thought of it, although I've never had the need to hide anything, I have sometimes seen a few pictures that were general but marked mature o.o

Glad FA's getting the hide from guests option soon for those people x3 no need to weird out about oddly rated material :'D

Here's a good example of clean art marked as adult - just for kicks

I don't think it's a good example as it's an april fools image.
Besides, it could've been tagged alright without the two seperate category lists anyway (not that the picture even uses them to begin with).

Ah. Okay.

lol I was just reading the previous journal.

Also removing all 'adult' categories. Will that mean that all groups will now fall under one category each? (ie: Paw (adult) and paw (tame) will now both be simply noted as 'paw'.) And will users have to make the change to the new category themselves or will the site automatically re-sort the images for them? *is not well acquainted with how art site categories work*

Yes, but users can use the search engine to go between clean/adult. We should be able to tag that into the browse engine as well. It'll make things easier to streamline category wise.

And no, users will not have to make changes themselves.

I like this new idea. The catagories always confused me.

Also, would it be possible to get the Watching/watched by list to display the ! of suspended like it does for all other statuses?

Could be something we can look into.

Cool, cause it makes a very hard way of trying to identify if there's a problem with someone I wasn't aware it didn't show up till last night.

Also automatically remove fav'd pics that were taken down by the poster, or at least make it easier to do so.

^This.

this as well

This!

Hmm, I don't quite understand the matter though;
Why would it be "not-so-fine" to see a fursuit in full bondage, or any adult content including them for that matter?

Don't get me wrong there, I completely understand and acknowledge that it's your decision.
I'm just asking.

I think it's because full bondage would push the image towards "fetish" and that would put FA in another category rather than adult art site.

anything could be considered a fetish really. and i mean ANYTHING people can get off to stuff like just looking at your eye lashes! :P

Not by US Law, no.

US law is wrong then, anything not just regular clean vanilla humping is considered fetishy

Well, we know US law is silly sometimes, hahaha.

I think what you need to understand is that it doesn't matter if it is a fetish or not. What matters is that if it can be viewed as sexual or not. An example of this would be someone posting a picture of someone in bondage gear being spanked, and someone else posting a picture of a guy in a suit. Of those two, which are both fetishes, which one is actually sexual in nature?

Gotta love this post right here. Thanks for sharing it^^

Actually, under US law, plain bondage is NOT pornographic or obscene. In Miller v. California, the infamous Supreme Court decision which defined what could Constitutionally be regulated as obscene, the following test was set out:

"The basic guidelines for the trier of fact must be: (a) whether 'the average person, applying contemporary community standards would find that the work, taken as a whole, appeals to the prurient interest, (b) whether the work depicts or describes, in a patently offensive way, sexual conduct specifically defined by the applicable state law; and © whether the work, taken as a whole, lacks serious literary, artistic, political, or scientific value."

To my knowledge, the wearing of fetish gear alone does not satisfy the definition of sexual conduct under any state law, unless genitals are showing or the individuals are posed in a suggestive manner. Consider that Family Guy was allowed to depict bondage on multiple occasions on national broadcast television. Also consider that the various CSI shows regularly delve into bondage-related topics, and they are never struck down on obscenity grounds.

Now, it is a valid question whether we SHOULD allow bondage photographs. I'm just saying that it's not ILLEGAL to do so. Legality does not define morality - it's just a minimum set of standards to prevent individuals from infringing upon each others' rights.

I'll conceded to that, but either way, FA has chosen not to allow irl things as to not fall into the category of obscenity. Imagine, mods attempting discern obscene and not obscene in these matters when... well, THIS happened.

Well, I'm not saying that it should or shouldn't be allowed. I'm just tired of people saying that US pornography laws require the banning of clothed bondage, 'cause they don't, as far as I can tell.

No. No, they don't. DeviantArt, for example, has a section for Artistic Nudes. I've seen those include bondage and other elements of BDSM.

On the other hand, if you're into posting sexually suggestive fursuit pictures, there are other venues for that like XTube and FetLife.

Well, sure, there are other sites. There are also a ridiculous number of other sites for My Little Pony art. I also get annoyed when I see the whole front page covered with My Little Pony. Does that mean it should be banned? No.

Does that, however, mean that MLP "art"-spammers should be smacked upside the head?

Most likely, yes.

Is this why they were removing rubber suits and such...because people are whiney and bitchy about it and wanted it to be taken down? What happened to this site anyway? Everything used to be welcomed and now you can't post this or that because it violates the new AUP when back then it was perfectly fine? It's not what the admins want or the users...it's what EVERYBODY wants to see! If you don't like this or that there should be a filter for it! Plain and simple!

Photography of anything that can be considered sexual has never been welcomed. There's another comment that explains it better than I can. Bondage and latex gear can be considered sexual.

It's not sexual all the time so there are different ways of looking at it.

Not by US law.

Again, someone said it better than I.

US law. To have adult content that involves real people you have to jump through a lot of hoops that FA is not capable of jumping through.

Would you rather lose some things or the entire site?

Not everyone will like what everyone likes. If they don't like something we like then it's not right to say "You can't like this and like that." just like here you can't post this or post that. It's just mean and that's why loads of people left.

It has nothing to do with what people do or don't like. It has to do with the laws in the country and/or state in which FA is based on. Not their AUP, the actual laws.

Then why dont they state that in the AUP!

o___o Abiding by the laws in the country in which you reside in should be... common sense????

Exactly what I was thinking. ^^;

Because it doesnt matter. site laws are site laws even if they're not based off real laws (which this one happens to be). Deal with it or leave the site.

^ This.

The rules are not saying that you can't like ____. It's simply saying that it is not acceptable to upload on this site. It's not "mean", and honestly if someone's going to leave a website like FA because a single genre of fetish photography is banned.. then they probably aren't on the appropriate website for that anyway.

But full bondage pictures, given they're art, are fine too. How you said it, that sounds like the same thing. Anyway, I guess my question's been answered.

Thanks ^^

Yes, they explained it better than I could. n_n;;

US law. To have adult content that involves real people you have to jump through a lot of hoops that FA is not capable of jumping through.

Ah, being german I have little knowledge of the US Laws ^^'
Thanks!

Vindicate the users, discipline the admin.

Eviscerate the proletariat!

If you're blue and you don't know where to go to, why don't you go where fashion sits?

POOTDIS POOTDIS POOTDIS POOTDIS...

POOTIS POW!

Wait ALL 'Adult' categories? Or just ones related to photography?

Personally I liked them being seperated as usually there are clear definitions of what is adult or tame in categories even with Mature tags. I would consider X - Tame something that is artistic nudity if it was still marked mature.

Not to mention it will make all the categories a cluster crap of all the stuff together now.

Heresy grows from idleness. Just the "categories". Will make it easier for the most part.

I'll learn to live with it I suppose.

At least I still don't have to resort to that awful tag system. So I should be grateful.

Will this take place before or after the Site update mentioned on the Fender board?

Well written and you're handling this better than anyone could ask for, in my opinion.

Though I will say, I don't feel the offending parties should get off Scott-free; they still repeated an offense they had previously been warned for and I don't feel a temporary suspension is beyond justifiable. I've seen plenty of people get two week bans for similar situations and it does feel that these two are getting special treatment given their popularity and twitter outrage.

But that's my ten cents.

Some of their submissions were in violation, yes. But they didn't deserve to be banned over them though.

Well I don't mean an outright permanet ban, but from what I've gathered here, they've been warned about this in the past, continued to post suggestive images and that why the admin acted as he did. I admit t was a bit harsh to just ban without giving cause, but if anyone else were to continue to participate in an activity they had been previously warned about, they get temporary suspension. I know that was why I got suspended along with a goo list of friends.

I feel it's important to say I'm not trying to tell you how to run the site, just expressing my opinion.

I still stand by my statement about how well you're handling this situation and I appreciate you dealing with this nonsense for the sake of providing us users with a great site to use for free.

Well outside of Bondage gear/harness.... What about just general bent over butt shots of fursuits? They are not showing human anotomy, or any added appendages or SPH's. aka, I posted one of sniffer just bent over, and your admin's pulled it.. Which on top of things, the UI of this site deleted all comments that users posted about the pic, so I never saw their comments.

"Given that, I strongly believe we need to change the way we approach users."

It's a shame that it took a mob of angry fursuiters to get you to realize this and do the right thing.

^THIS

We knew that we needed to change that, actually. We'd been working towards that in recent weeks, as we've been improving the admin process. I'm just re-iterating the issues - it's a problem, and it needs to be resolved.

strongly agreed!

^^^^^^^ Amen! It is pretty sad..... :/

Thank God you came to save us.
Lav and Howie are such great people and they did not deserve that suspension for no reason.
That's a good idea for removing the Fursuit - Adult option.
Looks like the picture I made for you makes sense for what I think of you... ...a hero.

FA's been a bit ban-happy, hasn't it?

its what happens when admin powers are handed out by popularity with the owner rather then by skill

Admins aren't given their @s by popularity. Many of the admins come from earning their skill on the forums and history on the site.

well looks like they are not doing all that great of a job with ALL of the drama being stirred up. maybe you should get people with more experiance or even a customer service system up. like a ticket system

this ---^

You do know we have a ticket system, right?

does the ticket system work? i posted a ticket on and got no response 03.15.12

I posted a ticket also and it took about 7 months to et a reply and by then the entire thing was taken care of... Hopefully they are on top of things now.

https://twitter.com/#!/imhkr/status...../photo/1/large

Will there be a guide written for proper use of the ticketing system? The general rule of thumb in the IT world is one ticket per one issue. Helps keep track of things and makes sure things get done correctly. I think that the vast majority of users share this assumption.

Can we lump multiple account violations into one ticket? Should multiple violations per one account be condensed into one ticket? Should the violations reported in a single ticket be of the same nature? Can violations of the same nature spread across several different accounts be put in a single ticket? Some clarification would be useful!

Yes, actually. That's one of the things I'm working on right now.

Glad to hear it!

I remember that system and how "sum cat" wasn't too efficient when regarding an issue about copying & altering logos being okay for when they "parody," which was listed nowhere in the AUP while he claimed it's okay and was telling me to knock it off with reopening the ticket when my questions weren't answered. He just kept closing it without a second thought which made me feel disrespected. By the way, IT'S BEEN OVER A YEAR SINCE I SENT MY NOTE TO YOU REGARDING THE ISSUE AS PER PROCESS OF ESCALATION. Still no response. I can understand waiting up to days at a time or even a week or two, but a year is unacceptable knowing all the things you post otherwise.

I'll say my suggestions here so EVERYONE can see it:
1. Either make it so administrators can broadcast announcements at the top of FA such as assessing dramatic situations OR make a new category within the message center similar to deviantART where it can have said announcements posted and emboldened as the top category.

2. Give your administrative team reviews in how they have handled their situations based on standards and metrics. In other words, reassess their abilities and if a change is made to the administrative team, of course update the community so they know who will be the most current ones to contact since people may incidentally contact an ex-admin out of habit and who knows what an ex-admin could try to pull if that ex wants to stir up drama.

3. Direct communication to administration in case immediate action is needed. Even a little light next to the name of a user signifying if they're online or offline would be nice. Otherwise, alternate contact would of course take place.

4. While allowing the chance for people to apply, provide a "blind test" for those who actually seek admin-ship versus a hope for the best on past experiences which can only tell so much since any variables could make the person look good from subjective opinion. A blind test would be making up an active and likely scenario that only the one giving the test would know about in the factor of being acted out for the sake of a test. Then, the one taking the test would implement action based on events so to track performance.

5. For fuck's sake, make sure the team doesn't beat around the bush or say nothing about their action, but still keep it professional in the end. Otherwise, it reassures the fact that they were brought on because they were in the right place at the right time while looking like they were doing the right thing while coincidentally being friends of yours.

6. Find someone with programming experience to show high traffic areas and pull up hot-words that are getting tossed around and could show an area of interest that could have to do with upcoming drama. I'd do so in a heartbeat, but I'm still an entry level programmer with knowledge in C++ and C#.

7. Dedicate an account to escalated situations that need to be handled by someone higher up and have multiple members handle those situations via being forwarded the issue and to each of their inboxes. With that, I'd say make it so someone can indeed tack their name on the issue, otherwise, if it doesn't meet a time window, assign it to the most available admin. It's extremely inefficient when you have only ONE LEAD ADMINISTRATOR TO ANSWER EVERYONE'S NOTES.

If you need me to, I can provide references, but I still offer my time to maintain quality on FurAffinity and implement appropriate action as an administrator/supervisor. I won't bullshit you because I can backup what I say. I understand FA isn't a company, but it's a service that should have some form of professionalism and good resource management. Were things to have a better standard of quality, this site wouldn't be losing members like Capcom is losing customers.

You have no real measure at hand to make proper statements about the quality of FA administration. What you seem to be ignoring, though, is that it could be a lot worse than you perceive right now. But it isn't, because they are mostly doing a very good job. Don't jump on them because of a few things that went wrong, when there are countless things that you don't know of because they went right.

i dont think you need to change the way how you approach users. in my experience that has always been fair.
just reword the rules to make them clearer. its the users fault for breaking the rules afterall. the rules to which they agreed when making the account.

it wasnt exactly perfect that submissions got removed that were not against the AUP but still, that is no reason to make such a huge fuzz about this whole thing... the community completely overreacted again.

im glad to hear that the categories for adult photography are getting removed though.
may i make a suggestion? how about making an error message pop up when a user uploads something into the "photography" category and tries to rate it higher than general?

The whole reason people overreacted is because the users got an automatic suspension, without any kind of warning whatsoever.

"Uploading adult or pornographic photography may result in an automatic suspension."
as a result of
"Photographic work must be suitable for all ages, and submissions MAY NOT be rated higher than General. Photography involving mature or adult situations or illicit activity are not allowed."
ive seen many suiters upload photos that were rated mature/adult. personally i think its their own fault for not reading the rules :T

its a problem that some images that were removed didnt violate the rules though. but still, some photos did violate them. those got removed and in more severe cases the user apparently got suspended. just like the rules say it.

Oh stfu already

no.

Don't forget some people use mature/adult ratings to prohibit viewing without an account.

this I agree with this. If they are taking off the adult button can we add in a furry only button

One of the features they said was going to be in the current and still ongoing update was the ability to hide your account from non-registered users. So soon this should be a non-issue. The journal http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3325316 list it as hide from guest. Using tools in unconventional ways until given the proper ones.

but that will hide all your work, I only need to hide some of it from nonusers. :-P Maybe I should just draw a penis in each photo to make it safe. Security penis. LOL

but why bother uploading something when you dont want certain people to see it?

because you DO want the other ones to see it?

is that really worth breaking the rules though? i doubt it.

In this situation we're not exactly talking about breaking the rules. This issue will be resolved if/when there is an option to not have your posts viewed by every random person who comes by on the internet.

right now we are because that feature isnt implemented yet^^ the only way to stop guests from seeing your stuff is rating it mature/adult. and with photos thats not allowed.

I think the issue here is that people didn't understand it wasn't okay for them to do that. Yes, it's not allowed to post adult photos, but maybe it wasn't entirely clear that you couldn't post acceptable photos and label them mature so that guests wouldn't see it.

"Photographic work must be suitable for all ages, and submissions MAY NOT be rated higher than General."
seems pretty clear to me :T

Doesn't mean people understand completely, or why. You'd be surprised.

its right there! in capital letters! "MAY NOT be rated higher than General". im sorry, but if someone doesnt understand that its not the admins fault.

Not saying it's their fault. I could think of theoretical ways of misinterpreting just about anything though. It's amazing what human ignorance/stupidity can come up with.

if you want to account for ignorance and stupidity you might as well not bother writing down rules^^
people will always break them, no matter how well you write them. because most people dont even bother reading them!

XDD Do not cash this check if security penis is not present.

indeed. Fun for all, they come in many sizes and flavors.

Apparently they had warning.
Plus, you should be expected to follow the rules of the site. Learn to read them and follow them, or face the consequences.

Its clear however that alot of people showed their true furry colors in all of this and i got a chance to flex the old Ignore list

Well that seems like a pretty closed minded approach to making judgements on people you don't know. A bit childish too.

It wasn't very open minded calling fursuiters "disgusting murrsuits" Im talking about all the trolls that came out to this issue

Sorry misunderstood your original post

have you seen some of those comments that users posted? now THAT was childish!

Im pretty sure i blew my top off last night myself, i saw the whole situation go to crap in the first 4 hours

personally im really glad that i was fast asleep at that time! XD

Maybe if it were submissions of yours getting deleted without warning maybe you would understand. It's pretty childish of you to be trolling the issue which you had no clue about to begin with.

my images dont get deleted because i bothered reading the rules.
also, stop using the word "trolling". me being right isnt trolling.

Once again reading comprehension has failed you and I've grown tired of explaining it to you

i just read your journal...
you do realize that if you hate this place so much that you can just leave, right?
and how in the world did i fail reading your comments? all im hearing here is a lot of hot air, desperately trying to make me understand how unfair this all is.
well guess what! you uploaded something and it got removed? TOUGH TITS! its not allowed here, so deal with it!

I didn't get anything removed. Still was a messed up situation. I also don't hate furaffinity but people like you seem to forget that it's a community and not you personal grounds to trample over others for your amusement

i didnt imply that your stuff got removed.
and personally i find the rules so important BECAUSE of the community! without them people would just spam the site with all sorts of memes, screenshots, car photos and stolen artwork.
im not trampling over anybody. i simply dont like it when people cant deal with the fact that this site has rules and that the admins are doing a pretty decent job at enforcing them. all i always hear is whining when someone got his stuff removed because he or she didnt bother reading the rules. but then for some reason the admins are assholes because of that... its retarded.

Again you are ignoring the fact that some images got removed that violated no rules. People have every right to be upset. Without the community this site wouldn't be running.

to quote myself from this very journal:
"right. not all of them. as dragoneer said, not all images were violations and i did say that before."
"its a problem that some images that were removed didnt violate the rules though."
"it wasnt exactly perfect that submissions got removed that were not against the AUP but still, that is no reason to make such a huge fuzz about this whole thing..."
i dont ignore it. at all. and i do think its a problem. because apparently that means that some of the admins also dont know what the rules say. and that means they need to be reworded very badly.

people do have a right to be upset. but they blew it out of proportion! they called the admins out as assholes and other stuff. that is not the right thing to do and im surprised that they dont get banned for that kind of behavior.

FA staff does need to change.

There are several people here saying their Trouble tickets and notes got ignored. I know many people who feel that way, myself included. I sent two very important notes to dragoneer before, and once to another mod, and they were not answered (it's been two years since one, about three months from the other). I had to comment HERE to get one of the issues resolved instead of privately through notes. I have had admins and moderators promise to get back to me and not do so. I have seen this happen dozens of times. The note leak proved admins and moderators were breaking their own rules and playing favorites. When new staff was brought to help here, every single one of them quit within a month because they said the staff was unprofessional. The site needs to change, the way people are blown off and disregarded and treated like they don't matter needs to change.

being an FA admin isnt their main job though. you have to keep that in mind as well. they are doing it voluntarily!
they have to deal with whining users every day and hundreds of completely pointless troubletickets. im not surprised that some issues are getting overlooked in all that!

I went to a site called sc2forum.org and was a moderator there. It was the second most popular starcraft 2 forum for quite some time. It wasn't as big as FA, but during the peak of excitement over the game, and any time updates were mention, it was flocked with users. The person who owned it left without explaining why(later we found out he went on a mission trip over to middle eastern companies to help them in their time of need), and a bunch of us had to work for over a year to keep it working despite the owner, the only one with full access to full coding site issues etc, was gone. We kept that site afloat for a year despite ALL of us having jobs. We all dealt with glitches in the site, and fixed them as best we could, took care of ad/spambots, distributed online store money to all the people there since the shop system had gotten updated. None of us got paid a cent, either.

If they cannot handle being moderators or administration on this site, they should not be, case closed. If Neer is having such a hard time running it, he needs to recruit more people specifically to be the authority of handling one job (some people on TTs, some on notes, some on handling emails, etc) so that way not all the admins are juggling around everything/giving contradictory information. That, or he needs to sell the site to someone who CAN handle it.

I understand being busy, I work three jobs right now and go to college(and am currently waiting for a call back on my resume). I don't have a lot of time to do things, I barely have time to sit down and spend time with my family or go out and just relax for a few hours with friends. But that is no excuse for not doing a job right. There are several people willing to help the site, and if there was an application to fill out a year or three ago when there were problems, which would have given Dragoneer time to establish credibility for individuals, then this could have been on the road to recovery instead of with more false promises of getting better. It really says something when people who offered to help leave because the site is being unprofessional. There's not having time (which is as easy as recruiting new people or better organizing responsibilities, which should take AT MOST, half a year, and these problems have been here for years) and then there's just blatantly disregarding rules and ignoring users. The is no excuse for the latter and lack of professionalism. I treat FA like any other privately owned site/company, and expect the same thing out of it. Dragoneer doesn't get a sympathy card because this is a side job.

you got a point there. although i suppose dealing with a bunch of anfry furries is different compared to moderating a forum X3 i moderated one myself. as long as you are an active member in that community and post a lot i found it to be rather relaxed.
but here some people submit the same ticket 100 times in a row to make sure an admin looks at their issue!  warmock told me once how frustrating it can be to moderate this community. you have to deal with a lot more bullshit here as it seems...

Well I can hardly blame them for submitting the same thing a million times when they've had bad experiences with moderators replying in the past. I understand moderating is a hard job, and props to the staff for trying. But just the way they go about it needs to change. SOMETHING needs to change instead of constantly saying it will. I mean when a moderator can point blank be caught saying they bend rules (the note leak), and no action be taken against them, then something is wrong.

>hate how biggest furry site that everyone uses and you love is being run
>everyone tells you to leave

I wish everyone would listen to the last part of that comment XD

some users definitely overreacted again. ive seen comments like "the admis/FA suck!" quite a lot. if they hate this place so much they are always free to leave, i dont get what the problem is :P

It is no fault of the user's when the rules aren't clear. I recommend you look at this situation from a view other than your own.

personally i think that the rules are very clear:
"Photographic work must be suitable for all ages, and submissions MAY NOT be rated higher than General. Photography involving mature or adult situations or illicit activity are not allowed." -> no adult photos at all.

Once again you fail to comprehend that not all of the images were adult.

Please regard the journal we are posting in. It's clearly typed above.

right. not all of them. as dragoneer said, not all images were violations and i did say that before.

What caused the mass deletion of images not in violation?

Seemed like all this started at once out of the blue.

Many of the images were in violation, but a few were close/borderline. There was no "purge the fursuit images" that some had suggested. Because of the vagueness of the rules, a small handful of images which sat on the border of acceptability got swallowed up by that (including some of my own). And that should never have to happen.

Will there be a clear outline of
Pics with wrist cuffs, ankle cuffs on fursuits - no
Sled-pulling harness - yes
Collar -yes
Bondage harness - No

Sort of thing, with clear acceptable things and unacceptable things so they'res not this vague description of things?
i'm fine with fursuits in harnesses for accessorys but whenit steps into bondage gear it gets abit dodgey.

Given that, I strongly believe we need to change the way we approach users. If more than one violation needs to be removed... we should be making more attempts to contact the users before hand to explain the rules and policies, and try to work with them. We've been striving to be more clear with our removals, and try to be more up front to users when we do so.


I agree, i got a 3 day ban because a user was trolling me, then blockked me, then when i went into my alt account (which is STILL banned) and tried to point out that the user in question had been spreading rumors about me here on FA, i was told i broke the rules and got a 3 day ban. (PS im still pretty fucking pissed abotu it as the user in question STILL hasnt been punished)

what about other suiters that were suspended? many of them DIDNT have ''suggestive'' pics.

I don't have a full list, and to my knowledge thus far the Lav and Howie were the main issues. I do know some suiters were suspended for retaliating against the site staff or uploading images which they knew WERE in violation to prove a point. If users disagree with the site rules I'm willing to work with them, but if they're going to retaliate in such a manner... =/

I can understand the retaliation pics being suspended.

but my friend  melkiah was suspended and he had no suggestive pics at all

He trolled the site by uploading "adult" fursuit images to retaliate against the admins. The ban stands. It is possible to dislike something and protest without breaking the rules.

ah...i guess it got taken down before I saw. :(

I personally responded to this issue, and the user was attempting to set himself up for a suspension. I attempted to work with the user, but with all the noncompliance, I had little choice but to suspend them temporarily, which seems to be what they wanted in the first place. I assure you, we did everything in our power to avoid this issue, but sometimes, issues cannot be resolved by interpersonal communication when it reaches a certain level.

well...I didnt know he was suspended till I woke up this morning and he said that he was going somewhere else.
Kinda out of character for him, but if that is what he wanted....

Perhaps you can start improving the communication here. I am not saying what the user did was a brilliant idea, but they do deserve the right to be warned. Yes, they retaliated and should have seen this coming. Personally, I think a warning should be more than enough. Remove the picture and give them a warning without the ban/suspension. A lot of people were upset over this issue and a lot of rash decisions were made. But this is the perfect chance to show how FA is changing for the better.

There were multiple notes exchanged by myself and the user. I can't go into too much detail without violating user privace, but they were given multiple warnings.

I understand. Without being an admin myself, all I can go off of is the information that I have provided to me. I'm not asking for private information either, just trying to offer my two cents.

That's understandable!

You admit that this incident was your fault. Therefore, they were right to retaliate since they were left with no recourse. You had no control over this situation and are completely at fault, by your own admission.

You owe it to those who retaliated some amnesty.

He really doesn't. Trolling, especially trolling the admins, is against the rules and has consequences. That doesn't change just because it was "righteous" trolling.

But as Dragoneer pointed out, the wrongs perpetrated by the admins are justified by a broken system. If the system is broken, that is, the rules are wrong, then the trolling was justified. After all, according to Dragoneer, a bad system is enough to excuse bad behavior. This argument is valid since motive is a secondary argument to this, and not a primary component of it.

See, you are operating under the presupposition that heuristics, such as rules and prescribed punishments for violations, have an objective basis when they exist in the imagination of our own heads. They are inventions of the mind with no absolute truth backing them up. If breaking the rules has universal consequences in society, then why do some people get away with breaking the rules some times?

If I build a flawed system, people will rebel against that flawed system. Such an outcome in this case was to be expected. Much of the anger on FA, to me, seems a lot like the anger of Anonymous towards government powers. Anon does not forgive, Anon does not forget, so we should expect them. The system has no special rights to protection from retribution when the system fucks people over. On the contrary, it is the duty of each individual to undermine flawed systems until they receive just compensation.

All we are left with is "It is our website and we can offend who ever we like and still expect people to behave themselves with impunity." Their is nothing reasonable or even human about such an attitude. If anything, its dictatorial. Dragoneer is the lord of this land called Fur Affinity and we are his surfs. Who are we, but mere peasants?

What I hope one day happens is a distributed furry network that anybody can join and post what ever the hell they want, with no restrictions whatsoever, and can say what ever they want with out fear of the ban hammer. It would be a furry community that shapes and molds itself, without people putting themselves at the top trying to shape the fandom as they so desire. It would be one great big anarchocommune that shouts "I'm being repressed!" when King Arthur tries to assert his unquestioned dominance.

Actually I'm operating under the fact that rules are rules and that you don't get to break them just because you're annoyed.

I suggest being mad about it and bitching some more, it'll totally help.

I think you just have a legalism fetish. Rules are rules only to those who are too lazy to think. Your attitude ignores the arbitrary nature of the rules. If you were a more thoughtful and less conservative person, you'd operate on logically deduced and empirically observed principles. Your justification for the rules is circular and, therefore, mystical.

Tell you what. You start up a site, completely fund it by yourself, keep it running by yourself, and you run it in as anarcho-communist fashion as you want to.

Lemme know how long that lasts.

Also, I couldn't help but notice that this is a total doge from my argument. The creation of a new art site has nothing to do with the legitimacy of rules or administrative capriciousness.

His site, his rules. Don't like his site and his rules, go make your own site and your own rules (or no rules or whatever). You can invent reasons for that being unfair all you like, but for one thing that doesn't make it actually unfair, but more importantly it doesn't matter because it's reality.

You might give reality a try. It's that place where jobs are, that let you afford things like servers for hosting your own site.

You are a sarcastic bastard, you know that, don't you?

You don't say!

It would be a furry community that shapes and molds itself, without people putting themselves at the top trying to shape the fandom as they so desire.

Isn't that pretty much what's happening now?

Is that what's happening now? External to Fur Affinity, it is partially. But you'll often do have people who try to exert their influence on the fandom. I think FA staff has tried to modify fandom behavior in the past and they certainly are not the only ones. For the most part, the motivation to modify the fandom has more to do with affecting how the outside world perceives us. I can imagine that running a site like this, Dragoneer may feel a social obligation to protect the fandom's image. However, I disagree that this is the roll of any particular fur. I think it better to educate the fandom in how to deal with the media and how public relations actually works, and leave the individuals of the fandom to figure out how to do that best. However, that's not what's happening. In the case of Fur Affinity, a site that used to be about allowing free expression, has slowly narrowed this definition so that certain undesirable individuals go away. Such action only adds to the stigma lumped on to these outcast groups. I would rather nobody be excluded and, if anybody goes against the law in how they behave, that they be liable and not this site. I view all information as speech and assert that intellectual property is a tyrannical fantasy without basis.

Ive lost alot of respect for you administration, one would think they would weed out the bad eggs in your staff rather then look for a reason to keep them in office

I'd have no problem removing admins if I felt they maliciously caused problems, but given the facts I found in this case... it wasn't malicious, not intending to be a bad egg. Every time an admin causes a problem it's my time, my patience on the line when I have to step in and take this. I don't like taking these hits, and I don't like having to take the brunt of the fandom's collective rage.

I have no problem cutting somebody who went "rogue" so to speak, but I likewise have no problem defending them when they were in the right. What happened here shouldn't have happened, but it was in no way malicious. It's much easier for me to cut my losses and move on than deal with this, but I'll defend the admins because they were doing the right thing. The issue here was the admin who came before, and didn't update the history. That's what ultimately lead to this.

There's things we can fix to prevent this in the future, and that's what we need to fix.

A reevaluation of your current staff might be good and like you said revamping the terms of AUP and acceptable photos might be a good idea. You certainly did take the brunt of this attack that is for sure. but perhaps more eyes and ears on the site might prove invaluable to the future of the site.

We are evaluating current staff, on multiple aspects... just as we are the rules.

I'm glad you were able to sort the issue out. What's gonna happen to the admin that caused all this? Or has that issue already been solved?

It's not the admin who is the issue, but the process. We need to fix the process first.

The admin was doing his job based on the information he had in front of him. Turns out, the information wasn't all that solid... so I'm not going to put him on the line to please the fandom because he didn't mess up. We should have done things differently though, and that's what we need to fix.

Let's hope you get something sorted out that we all can agree to.

That seems about as unlikely as an American election without accusations of fraud.

I'm not entirely sure if I can agree to this.

Yes, they were doing their job based on the information received, but the information received was either bad or incomplete, and therefore they acted upon themself to do what feels right for the site. I'm not saying they should be stripped of their status or a demotion, I'm saying they need some proper discipline first, give them a chance to think before they act.

Just a suggestion, really. My two cents.

I'm not saying what they did was flawless. I'm just saying I think the backstory caused a bigger problem overall and compounded the issue.

Yeah. But still, if they don't have all the right information, they shouldn't act just yet.

Maybe some new rules regarding administration and moderation should be in effect for them?

I can't believe I'm writing this comment

I'm NOT one to play devil's advocate normally but the issue here seems to be that the admin didn't have complete information

and that they didn't know they didn't have complete information

It's a catch-22 you see, you can't expect people even in positions of authority to be clairvoyant. Even the most responsible and careful people make mistakes especially when the folks who come before them do an incomplete job.

You gotta cut them some slack, I'm not saying it's totally excusable
but I'd be happy with a "I messed up" and an apology, because frankly this case really was one of overreaction and a bit of dumb luck.

Interesting. It will be interesting to see if the people who have already decided to leave based on this incident will return.

Eh. From what I've seen, people generally return to FA whether the issues that made them leave are fixed/"fixed" or not. It's still the primary furry art site and, despite all the griping, probably the easiest and most reliable to use. They head off to some other site or try to make their own and find that they're not getting the same attention or they're being annoyed by the interface or that doing their own webpage is hard, so they come slinking back, usually try to erase the signs of their departure, and sit here grumbling about how much they hate the place.

Case in point:  addlesee

Not all people are as fickle or attention seeking however. Still

Damn, so much butthurt...even when you're apologizing and trying your best to fix things :\

I feel for you, Neer.

THIS

agreed

Apologizing clearly isn't good enough. They want blood or internal organs to pay for an inconvience that didn't effect them at all.

...from the person that wasn't even involved with it, and is actively apologizing and trying to fix it x3

They want Dragoneer to go to the Hague and appear before the ICC.

It is not the first time the FA staff has been in knee deep in shit because they "forgot" something or were just plain lazy. Did you know they averaged 4 fucking TTs a day last year?! Some people are just tired of seeing them take action ONLY when people get angry.

sooo... two things. All adult stuff is banned? o.O and second I saw your comment up above about not taking actions against the admin who messed up. If he had done a simple follow up question with either of the two he would have found out the truth to the situation. So it really seems that by not punishing him you're okaying the unprofessional side of admins.

Adult images of fursuits have been banned for a long time.

And we should be following up more. The information the admin had appeared valid, and he acted on that. We need to change our process. He followed the rules, and they backfired because of a previous indecent.

oh okay ^^ didn't know that about the suits and alright sorry if I added to the head hunt on the admin.

oh okay ^^ didn't know that about the suits and alright sorry if I added to the head hunt on the admin.

what about adult images of rubber suits and shit?

oorrrr even mature pics that are clearly bondage?

"All adult stuff is banned?"
Nope, they'll just merge the categories in some way.

No, not all adult stuff is banned. They are just combining categories (ie Paw tame and paw adult goes to just paw) and you can choose to browse either adult or general.

I think letting someone know ahead of time that their art or photo is going to be taken off would be nice in general (within reason of course) As someone who had somewhat recently had some art removed from his gallery it would have been nice to have been given enough time to see if there was any information in the description I could AT LEAST copy and paste to a notepad file or something. Even if I don't think something warrants removal I would also try to see if there was a way to make everyone happy.

I think I've always been respectful of the FA staff and rules, but yeaaah.. that really grinds my gears.

I understand, but it's also really hard on a massive scale to follow up with hundreds of users at a time. We can't always do it, unfortunately, but we can change a few things to make it better for the users who are impacted.

I understand! I am sure you can figure out something that works. You can only do so much with the rather small staff you have.

I don't post "controversial" stuff, but I've long made it a standard practice to write descriptions as a text file first, then copypasta it to the description field when uploading. That way, a copy always exists in the folder I dedicate to each project--which itself exists in at least two places that aren't my primary computer's hard drive. I've read way too many journals from people whose hard drives went kablooey with the sole copies of all their artwork.

In my case, FA's hosting provider could be hit with a meteor, and I could still reconstruct my gallery, complete with descriptions, in the same order as the pics were uploaded--and I have over 400 submissions :)

thank you

I have high hopes for this sight

Maybe it would be a good idea to set up a strict process in which all admins must follow when dealing with tickets. It seems a large amount of users are not happy with how they are dealt with. Making admins taken certain steps/tasks with all tickets maybe a good idea to stop things like this happening in the future.

Thanks for getting back to us so quickly with the follow up

I would question why things that aren't adult, but instead perhaps a little racy, couldn't just be marked with a mature tag at the discretion of the uploader. Someone getting spanked in suit by another suiter isn't adult, but it's perhaps PG-13.

I await to see the update to the AUP. Do keep in mind that playfulness ≠ sexually explicit material.

^ THIS this, this, sooooo much this

You do know that they mark all of their uploads as mature now.. right? (lav+der)

Gah, I feel bad for you. You've gone thrown into this mess unexpectedly and all that. :\

Well, I must say, thank you for taking the time to handling it. I think you've done well to assess the situation and have done what you can to make things right.

The damage has been done and I hope with this whole misunderstanding we can move forward to improving relations and communications between users and admins.

WOA wait a minute did you just say that this site will no longer have an Adult category? Ummm seriously if you remove all adult material than you just downgraded the entire site. Leave the adult category up and make it entirely a choice that each individual user can choose whether they wish to see any and all adult material or not.

No. I never said that. It's the categories for things like "Fursuits" which have a general and adult category, but yet we don't allow adult photos to be uploaded unless they're sculptures, etc.

Oooh ok, just checking up with that Dragoneer I got concerned. Thanks for the fast response. You're awesome as always ^^.

That what you imply when you said it in the comment from before in second issue. Which I been trying to address on the last few comments. So in other words Muscle, Fat Furs, Inflation, Paw, Pokemon, Digimon, and etc. will under one catergory? Like there won't be a tame and adult section for catgories on this site. I don't think it going to help things, because most sites now a days have something like this.

Adult sculpture is allowed again? I seem to recall the AUP thread from earlier this year on the forum establishing that ALL mature photography including photos of mature/adult sculpture was now against AUP.

I literally have no idea what happened.

Not really bothered, just don't ban foxes.

so if a fursuit picture is marked mature or adult to keep the underage and people who don't have an account views from viewing a picture would that be considered illegal since its photograph and its labeled adult still/

We don't allow adult images. If we see it, we'll force you to re-label them properly back to General. You have to tag your images properly when uploading them to the site.

so suits in bondage gear like harnesses can not be labeled mature. Dragoneer with all due respect there are certain images that should not be completely open to the entire public. will you please put a little more thought into this before you push the go button.

Photos should not be rated mature. A harness on a fursuit is not mature, and if there's a reason for it to be mature, we may need to look into the reasons behind that.

I think what they are referring to are the "rubber doggy" suits. Some of them really should not be labelled as "General."

exactly. and those guys have been given the green light to post a while ago. are they just going to pull it from them now. i mean i dont like the suits and i think they are creepy but if they did something like that it would not be fair to them.

The users should still have the ability choose whether or not post a picture in full public or for FA members only. So far the only option has been to select adult/mature.

my point exactly. thank you.

Well like.

What do you do in the case of a fursuiter who's wearing a harness, but has a really coy, seductively expressioned head? The text which says, "Come get some...". I sure as hell don't want kids on the site seeing that, nor would I want my grandma or something.

This is a lot of potential confusion for you, 'neer. I'd say fursuits SHOULD have a mature category, but not adult. I.e. no genitalia or sex or anything, but I mean. Some suiters are showing off suggestively :X Not that there's anything inherently pornographic, but it's definitely not G rated.

If I were taking action on suiters /looking/ creepy there'd be a whole other drama thread out there by now.

the opinion for "looking creepy" might differ from admin to admin. just like "suggestive" you might think about not using verbiage like that in the new rules but im sure you knew that already.

what if you label your images that way just to keep them private so that only FA members can see them. If we are taking this out can we have a private button? Some people don't want non furries to see their artwork or suits, it can harm their real lives if they are not out of the furry closet.

No, not necessarily. We've known about the issues, but there's a certain point when you can't manage 1,000 users at once, no matter how many admins you have. If it's a single submission it will probably be removed without warning, but going forward, if we go through galleries... we'll give users 72 hours to clean it up.

"Given that, I strongly believe we need to change the way we approach users. If more than one violation needs to be removed... we should be making more attempts to contact the users before hand to explain the rules and policies, and try to work with them. We've been striving to be more clear with our removals, and try to be more up front to users when we do so. "

You've seriously only just noticed this? Oh my god. -_-;

This ^

No, we've not just now noticed this, but we are trying to improve on that aspect further. We need to better ourselves across the board. That's what I'm trying to state. We do contact users, but we need to be more consistent about it and in what cases.