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[Furfright] Thank You to the Dorsai
13 years ago
EDIT & DISCLAIMER
Someone created a petition to have the Dorsai removed. If you have been to the con, and have had issue with them, I encourage you to sign it. Furfright is an absolutely fantastic con, and I have no ill will to the staffers or the convention itself, but the Dorsai have to go. End of story. The Dorsai are causing problems for users, putting attendees in danger and making threats to get their way. Voice your opinion, sign the petition.
http://www.change.org/petitions/bel.....e-at-furfright
I also encourage you to read Silver's post here:
http://thatdamnwolf.net/post/345154.....8/so-furfright
I'd like to extend a personal thank you to the Dorsai. They've really gone above and beyond to make this convention the single most memorial in my 14 years experience attending conventions.
On Friday night, I was harassed and chewed out "Renegade" from the Dorsai. Our encounter ended with him screaming "That's it! I'm calling the police, and I'm having you arrested *NOW*" and other pleasantries, involving me being banned from the Crowne Plaza hotel and never being permitted on premises. Why? I was standing /near/ a door. Not in front of. Not by. Just near. Apparently, in Connecticut, that's illegal (I didn't know this!). When I was asked to move away from said door I said "No". Why? I'm not blocking it. I'm about 5ft away from the door, not blocking it, not causing an issue, and no, I'm NOT moving just because you feel I should.
I stood my ground. And this caused "Renegade" to start screaming at me. He said "Say that to me one more time!" and I responded "Okaaay!". Then he stormed off, screaming I'm calling the police, and I'm going to have you arrested and barred from the hotel!"
Now, I don't know about you folks, but I take being threatened to be arrested and escorted to jail pretty god damn seriously. You're going to have me arrested because I was standing NEAR a door? That's it? Frankly, I'm pissed. This was all witnessed by multiple con staffers and some of the directors, too... who... told me there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. At all. They, as con staff, couldn't help it (and went so far as to encourage me to post my story here).
In the end, the police never showed up (because I really wanted to know why standing in the vicinity of a door is apparently illegal!).
Doesn't end there though! Since then, we've been told by the Dorsai we're not permitted to enter the hotel without a conbadge, and they've demanded to see room keys and other evidence to "prove" we're a part a of the con "or else!". I really don't know what the "or else" was, but when we said "No, no thank you, we're not showing you our personal information" they followed us back through the hotel to our rooms. Trailing us. Stalking us. I'm NOT comfortable with that. We're paying guests of the hotel. Why are we PREVENTED from so much as entering it? Hell, we were even instructed there is a "curfew" in effect, and if you're not in your rooms or are making too much noise after 10pm the Dorsai will have the hotel remove you.
During the fursuit parade, my now good ol' buddy Renegade assaulted a con-goer. They were trying to clear space for the parade to get through, and an attendee with a camera was trying to get into a position to line up a shot. Mr. Renegade went up to him, told him to move, then put both hands on the attendee's chests and shoved him back. Hard. A few dozen people saw this happen, and one of the Furfright staffers was thankfully able to verify it with the witnesses.
To whoever you are... I'm sorry. I hope this isn't your first con, because this isn't what usually happens. But if you're out there... if you're reading this... I hope you speak up about it. It is *ILLEGAL* for convention security to touch, push, shove or lay a hand on an attendee in any way. It is the legal definition of assault.
Look, I understand the need for con security. I truly do. But security should be transparent, and only be there in the event of a problem. Not overbearing. Not a dominating force. And for fuck's sake, always treat attendees with respect. The Dorsai have never ONCE said the word "please". Just "You... move".
I don't go to cons to cause problems. I really don't. I go to GET AWAY from them. Conventions are my vacations, and I don't piss where I play. But in the past 5 years, I've had the Dorsai walk into my rooms unannounced (when the door was left cracked open), slam on the door at all hours of the night telling us to "keep the noise down" while having conversation with about half a dozen times, threatened to be de-badged banned for "standing in a restricted area" when.... the restricted area was the porch on my hotel room that connected to a closed room, screamed at for standing in the middle of a hallway, and my favorite, instructed to move for "blocking" entry to a hallway. A hallway nobody was in. At 4:00am in the morning. With a 12+ clearance in both directions around me.
And seriously, the shit my friends would post would dwarf this journal for all the issues they've had at this con (and others).
I'm done. I'm done with this. Furfright is (was?) my go-to convention. I love this con, and I love the staff, but the security have overstepped their bound year after year, and I'm done with it. I've brought up these issues every year for the past five years to the convention and nothing has ever happened. Hell, I've even been told the Dorsai are not to SPEAK to me unless they went through certain Furfright staff first due to the shit that happened in previous years.
But this... this went too far.
So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you, Dorsai. Thank you for threatening me, threatening my friends, random convention goers and everyone else. You've made this experience memorable, and one I certainly will not forget.
Someone created a petition to have the Dorsai removed. If you have been to the con, and have had issue with them, I encourage you to sign it. Furfright is an absolutely fantastic con, and I have no ill will to the staffers or the convention itself, but the Dorsai have to go. End of story. The Dorsai are causing problems for users, putting attendees in danger and making threats to get their way. Voice your opinion, sign the petition.
http://www.change.org/petitions/bel.....e-at-furfright
I also encourage you to read Silver's post here:
http://thatdamnwolf.net/post/345154.....8/so-furfright
I'd like to extend a personal thank you to the Dorsai. They've really gone above and beyond to make this convention the single most memorial in my 14 years experience attending conventions.
On Friday night, I was harassed and chewed out "Renegade" from the Dorsai. Our encounter ended with him screaming "That's it! I'm calling the police, and I'm having you arrested *NOW*" and other pleasantries, involving me being banned from the Crowne Plaza hotel and never being permitted on premises. Why? I was standing /near/ a door. Not in front of. Not by. Just near. Apparently, in Connecticut, that's illegal (I didn't know this!). When I was asked to move away from said door I said "No". Why? I'm not blocking it. I'm about 5ft away from the door, not blocking it, not causing an issue, and no, I'm NOT moving just because you feel I should.
I stood my ground. And this caused "Renegade" to start screaming at me. He said "Say that to me one more time!" and I responded "Okaaay!". Then he stormed off, screaming I'm calling the police, and I'm going to have you arrested and barred from the hotel!"
Now, I don't know about you folks, but I take being threatened to be arrested and escorted to jail pretty god damn seriously. You're going to have me arrested because I was standing NEAR a door? That's it? Frankly, I'm pissed. This was all witnessed by multiple con staffers and some of the directors, too... who... told me there was absolutely nothing they could do about it. At all. They, as con staff, couldn't help it (and went so far as to encourage me to post my story here).
In the end, the police never showed up (because I really wanted to know why standing in the vicinity of a door is apparently illegal!).
Doesn't end there though! Since then, we've been told by the Dorsai we're not permitted to enter the hotel without a conbadge, and they've demanded to see room keys and other evidence to "prove" we're a part a of the con "or else!". I really don't know what the "or else" was, but when we said "No, no thank you, we're not showing you our personal information" they followed us back through the hotel to our rooms. Trailing us. Stalking us. I'm NOT comfortable with that. We're paying guests of the hotel. Why are we PREVENTED from so much as entering it? Hell, we were even instructed there is a "curfew" in effect, and if you're not in your rooms or are making too much noise after 10pm the Dorsai will have the hotel remove you.
During the fursuit parade, my now good ol' buddy Renegade assaulted a con-goer. They were trying to clear space for the parade to get through, and an attendee with a camera was trying to get into a position to line up a shot. Mr. Renegade went up to him, told him to move, then put both hands on the attendee's chests and shoved him back. Hard. A few dozen people saw this happen, and one of the Furfright staffers was thankfully able to verify it with the witnesses.
To whoever you are... I'm sorry. I hope this isn't your first con, because this isn't what usually happens. But if you're out there... if you're reading this... I hope you speak up about it. It is *ILLEGAL* for convention security to touch, push, shove or lay a hand on an attendee in any way. It is the legal definition of assault.
Look, I understand the need for con security. I truly do. But security should be transparent, and only be there in the event of a problem. Not overbearing. Not a dominating force. And for fuck's sake, always treat attendees with respect. The Dorsai have never ONCE said the word "please". Just "You... move".
I don't go to cons to cause problems. I really don't. I go to GET AWAY from them. Conventions are my vacations, and I don't piss where I play. But in the past 5 years, I've had the Dorsai walk into my rooms unannounced (when the door was left cracked open), slam on the door at all hours of the night telling us to "keep the noise down" while having conversation with about half a dozen times, threatened to be de-badged banned for "standing in a restricted area" when.... the restricted area was the porch on my hotel room that connected to a closed room, screamed at for standing in the middle of a hallway, and my favorite, instructed to move for "blocking" entry to a hallway. A hallway nobody was in. At 4:00am in the morning. With a 12+ clearance in both directions around me.
And seriously, the shit my friends would post would dwarf this journal for all the issues they've had at this con (and others).
I'm done. I'm done with this. Furfright is (was?) my go-to convention. I love this con, and I love the staff, but the security have overstepped their bound year after year, and I'm done with it. I've brought up these issues every year for the past five years to the convention and nothing has ever happened. Hell, I've even been told the Dorsai are not to SPEAK to me unless they went through certain Furfright staff first due to the shit that happened in previous years.
But this... this went too far.
So, from the bottom of my heart, thank you, Dorsai. Thank you for threatening me, threatening my friends, random convention goers and everyone else. You've made this experience memorable, and one I certainly will not forget.
12 inches is too big a distance for his pride, I suppose.
I would've appreciated THAT part.
Yeah, not while in a PUBLIC space of the hotel. If I was in con space? Sure, fine, challenge me for ID.
But in the hotel lobby? Absolutely not.
I've been doing professional security for a number of years. You don't get to block a public section of a hotel or building and not give a reason why. That isn't how this job works. They are not police officers, they have /no/ authority at all. They are not allowed to arrest, detain, or otherwise touch a single person for any reason.
This isn't even about fox news allegedly attempting to gain entry to the con. This is about a glaring amount of unprofessional-ism on behalf of a group that calls themselves "security". You do not get to be rude and abrasive when asked why you're denying entry into a public section of a hotel that I paid to stay at, especially when you're not employed by that hotel. You also do not get to ID yourself as a hotel manager when you clearly are not.
You focus on the door thing. What about everything else that went on? They were witnessed by a large number of people force-ably moving someone out of the way of the parade even though it hadn't even arrived yet. Security is not allowed to put their hands on anyone except for self defense. That's assault -- and if I had been able to find the person it had happened to, I would've gladly taken that report myself.
Given the lack of professionalism, basic understanding of how security actually works, and understanding of how Connecticut Laws work with security officers? The Dorsai appear neither certified by CT DPS to act as security (as required by law, by the way) nor even competent enough to obtain the cert as required; as was proven Saturday night when the fire alarm went off and they made no attempt to aid in the evac until /I/ started to do so on my own.
Now, everyone is going to message her about it being "the worst con ever" because our purple king was "assaulted" (Quite frankly, I'm surprised he wasn't SERIOUSLY assaulted with all the crap he's pulled this year.) That aside, I understand that assault of any kind is a serious matter, but all of this could have been avoided with a very simple solution.
I, for one, think FurFright is one of the best cons out there, and many will agree. Quite frankly, Neer should learn how to organize his con before he decides he wants to barricade and turn his kingdom's backs on a very popular con.
Actually, Neer posted this journal after having reported this problem to the con for the past 5 years.
I myself have been reporting the same problems for 4.
After four years of reporting the issue? We finally figured enough was enough. They want to say "why wasn't it reported"? Guess what, it had been. For four years. Hell, half the stuff of this year happened in front of staff members who said they couldn't do anything. They had every opportunity to handle it themselves. Enough was enough.
Now, everyone is going to message her about it being "the worst con ever" because our purple king was "assaulted".
A) Too bad. Should've handled it when it was reported the first four years.
B) Should re-read the post. Neer never said he was assaulted, he said he witnessed someone else getting assault -- him and 15 others witnessed it. I interviewed most of them after the fact to figure out what happened. The stories match.
Though I get the feeling you don't care about facts.
(Quite frankly, I'm surprised he wasn't SERIOUSLY assaulted with all the crap he's pulled this year.) That aside, I understand that assault of any kind is a serious matter, but all of this could have been avoided with a very simple solution.
Ignoring the part where you just pretty much wished someone get assaulted for no actual reason -- you're 100% right, this could've been avoided with a very simple solution: Security understanding its role and not acting like douchebags.
I, for one, think FurFright is one of the best cons out there, and many will agree. Quite frankly, Neer should learn how to organize his con before he decides he wants to barricade and turn his kingdom's backs on a very popular con.
While I'm glad you like FurFright (I did too for a time), this post was never about them. It was about the people they chose to employ as "security".
Though I'm interested in your comment about Neer organizing his own con. Funny thing, I actually staff that con. I'm the Ops Director, Security Coordinator and Lead, as well as the Events Director. I'm assuming, off your comment here, that you attended FAU5. If you had problems with what went on there, shoot me an email -- I'd love to discuss whatever issues you had. You can email me at silver@faunited.org.
So I don't see why they'd be putting up such a huge stink.
The media generally blows things out of proportion, however they aren't able to show video of furries doing strange things without someone actually doing it. If you are dryhumping someone infront of a camera or something, yeah well, blame those guys.
Sorry about your tough time though. I hate people like that.
THAT'S MY PURSE
I DON"T KNOW YOU
THAT PROBABLY IS YOUR PURSE! BUT I HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO CONFISCATE IT!
I KNOW YOU SIR!!!
AHHHHHHH!!!!
BWAHHHHHH!
It is -very- hard not for me to look at this whole situation and get a rather unfortunate and cynical vibe of "furs will be furs".
What I don't support is a "Fire the Dorsai!!!" petition that can be signed even by people who have no experience with FurFright or the Dorsai and are only hearing about the situation second-hand. Nevermind the fact that the petition itself is more of a symbolic gesture than anything else. I don't support that the petition calls for action rather than a dialogue. I don't support the people who take one look at this situation and decide to boycott the con without even giving the staff a chance to weigh in, especially when the con isn't even a week old yet. I don't support jumping right to a petition without even making a clear effort to open a dialog with the con staff. I also don't support anyone who's willing to make an issue of the Dorsai but not willing to take any steps to secure evidence of the Dorsai's alleged misdeeds.
I am not saying that everyone is doing this, but enough people are that, to my mind, it's not only a problem, but it's playing right into stereotypes about furs that I'm pretty sure it would be in our best interests -not- to perpetuate.
And I'll admit that I'm enough of a jaded cynic with over a decade of experience in the fandom that even as I think it's a loss every time someone says "This happened at a con I've never attended and don't know anything about? Screw that, never going!!!" part of me is thinking, "If that's really how you're content to handle the situation? FurFright may be better off without you anyhow." It's not a part of myself that I'm especially happy about, but I'm a big enough man to admit it exists.
FurFright, to my mind, has always felt like a con that tries to give everyone who goes a positive experience and where there's a heartening degree of camaraderie and respect for one another. Some of the actions that have been taken and are being taken with regards to this situation don't, to my mind, reflect those values.
how were /they/ not arrested? :/
Poor neer, this is crap piece from that person who threaten you for no reason with no polite words. I think I lost my faith into Humanity
Ps. I miss talking to you drex :(
This year I even watch the Dorsai (including "Sergeant" Steve) literally sit at their desk and stare at people while the fire alarm went off. They had no interest in helping people evacuate.
I also witnessed the one called Renegade put his hands on an attendee and push him out of the way.
Sickening. I won't be returning to FurFright as long as they're there, or going to any other con that uses them. Unfortunately, being in the northeast, I think that only leaves FAU and the Delaware New Year's Ball (which is more an "event" than a "convention").
Plus I can get real poutine! So you've got two things going for you.
most people have the common courtesy to move out of the way IF they are even blocking the hallway, which in most cases they never are.
Its not like if people were to come through the door, they couldn't just go around you, even if you were blocking it in anyway, or just politely say "excuse me" Its not that hard, and the dorsai getting all over people is really dumb
they treat con-goers like little children, enforcing the least disruptive things you could possibly even do.
I'm glad I didn't go to FF this year. but a bunch of my friends did, I'm sure ill hear stories from them too :P
But a good constaff doesn't outsource security. Sorry, but a good con keeps the security job inhouse as a staff position. That way any staffer seeing a security guy getting out of line can correct the security person, and at worst case, pull his conbadge and fire him on the spot. With the Dorsai, no such authority exists. This puts them above the con staff and they can be as beligerent as they want then. A very bad situation.
The Dorsai appear to have some loose cannons in their membership all of a sudden. And the Dorsai need to quickly correct that, before their name is mud. Impersonating the hotel manager? Interfering with traffic in public areas? Pushing people around? Threatening to have folks arrested? These are the very kinds of lame know-naught problems that putting in the Dorsai are supposed to prevent in the first place. If they have people there just to get their ego trips on, then we can do better fielding our own teams and patrolling our own cons.
Security is responsible for and responsible to the fans who are there. If security doesn't give a quart of owl's piss about the furry fans they are there to serve, you will have grave problems.
You absolutely should! Nobody has a right to touch you in an aggressive manner, not even so-called "security" at a convention. You should also report it to convention staff.
Because I've even been stalked at a con, xD and I just ignore the person, >_>;
Yeah...I should learn to really report/tell people shit XD
(Btw. Confuzzled(UK), Mephit Minicon and Eurofurence (both Germany) are Dorsai-free. )
And that is a risk, these orange bullies seem to be not aware of. Intimidating a skinny schoolkid is easy, but trying to pull a stunt on a person, who is trained to react quickly and with force in a dangerous situation, it will end badly. Plus, with the 'Stand your ground'-laws in some states, the attacked person would even be on the right side of the law. Sooner or later we will see a report, that one of the orange bullies ended up in a hospital, needing reconstructive surgery to his face.
The whole Dorsai-thing is a desaster waiting to happen.
I get that don't block the door because it's a fire hazard is a thing, but you don't need to be an ass about it. If you didn't want to move they could have said "I'm sorry sir, it's a fire hazard to stand X feet around a door" and the end.
Thanks for sharing.
Well I'm sorry that that happened... I didnt witness any unpleasantries other than when con security was freaking out about the morons hoodsurfing on the nissan xterra in the parkinglot.
There are plenty of con going furries that are police officers, medics, doctors, etc... And I'm sure it would be a beautiful moment had the DI mistreated or assaulted a con goer that was also a PO.
DI: i call the police to arrest you
con goer: for standing near a door ?
DI: i tell you you have to obay
con goer: dont think so
DI: *pulls him away*
con goer: now i will call a friend of mine
DI: he will be arrested to
gon goer: *calling a number on his phone* yes officer (insert name)here could you send a police car here ?
just imagin his face :P
I am sorry that happened to you. I noticed you the first night we were here, and out of a sea of furs I've never met before, it was nice to see a familiar face. What I don't understand, though, is what the Dorsai (whatever that is) had to prove? We all came here to have a good time, to meet others, and to have the experience of a lifetime (at least, in my case anyways.... I've never been to a Con before, after all).... so there's no reason for ANY sort of hostility.
That being said, I applaud you for standing your ground. Goodness knows, it could've gotten a lot worse, but I'm glad it didn't come to the police getting involved or anything.
Staff members using their position of authority to assault, threaten, and harass attendees is not "drama." It's a serious issue that deserves more attention than the convention staff are giving it.
What the actual fuck is wrong with these people?
no, looked it up, they have...and i quote "trading cards, and a convention get-together" THAT DOES NOT SOUND LIKE PROFESSIONAL TO ME.
also, cons are a 24-hour thing, fuck what they say about "not being in your rooms after 10pm"
This does not sound like normal behavior. I think someone was on a powertrip and should be reprimanded at a minimum.
Also, please don't let one bad apple spoil a con for you.
Later, when someone else asked him about the incident, "Sergeant" Steve outright lied again, and claimed I physically threatened him and suggested we should "take this outside." I said nothing even close to that, and anyone who knows me would not even question that he was lying. I called him out on that, and "Sergeant" Steve informed me the conversation was over.
Why didn't we report this to the Dorsai? Because "Sergeant" Steve is basically in charge of them at FurFright. Who do you complain to then? Unfortunately I was unable to get ahold of Belic and K'Gra in person even with the help of other staff, but I will be sure they know what happened, and why I will not be returning to FurFright.
You already knew, he was no hotel manager. I'd hate to see him interact with the general public if he works in any customer service job.
It has to be one of the worst ideas ever. These are the type of guys who think they are secretly badasses while living mundane powerless day to day lives.
Having a bunch of blowhards running around making sure their presence is ever-known while bullying your attendees into submission is not the best in making an event fun, and reflects poorly on the con itself.
I can't say the Dorsai would pass on any of those 3 points I mentioned above - all they need to give a damn about is that people "behave". I don't believe a private security company would pass either, but at least they have a little more accountability.
yes... like the power to.... verbally reprimand people
from my own experiences, the volunteer security con-goers have LESS power over situations then the con-goers themselves.
I've not been to an event with the DI in many years, but even then it was obvious that they were using it as a chance to play pretend cop.
Just... wow.
had another DI 'look into it,' and told me that 'this definitely isn't the first complaint about (name),' but never heard anything back.
i'm not sure if bad attendee behavior or pressure from hotel staff makes security at furfright -- several of whom i know personally! -- way more stressed out than normal, but i -adore- furfright and yet it's the ooonly con i have these kind of experiences with security at. i try to give folks the benefit of the doubt, but situations like those are really super uncomfortable-feeling and discouraging when it comes to going back.
I can guarantee you that security at FAU doesn't operate like this. I would never tolerate this behavior from my team.
When you needed us, we were there. When you didn't, we weren't. That's how is should be done.
I'm not trying to say that FA:U didn't do a great job with security (I wasn't even there), or that the security there couldn't have done as great a job at FF - maybe you would have, I'm just saying it's a much bigger convention and that the force you had at FA:U may have been overwhelmed at FF in the same situation.
Allow me to take FAU entirely out of the equation if I may. FF averages a crowd of ~1500, and while I haven't been to AC since 2009 (in large part because of the DI), I can safely estimate AC's crowd at round 4500/5000. I've preformed event security duties for events larger than that.
I've been working the professional security circuit for six years, and have a little over 500 events (not including furcons) under my belt. For four of these years I've been apart of the planning and deployment process required to run such events smoothly. I've provided security services to events as small as 100 and as large as 8000.
You do not need to be "totally in control" of larger events to make sure things go smoothly. In fact the more control you attempt to assert, the more control you'll lose -- especially with crowds who really, really enjoy their booze. When dealing with a crowd the size of FF, you will maintain better control of your event by being relaxed and polite, but still firm. Saying things such as "because I said so" is neither of those things; its a power trip.
In their attempt to assert total control, the DI lost control. When the attendees started to stand up to them, they went on the offensive to try and take control back; which is extremely unwise to do. What made things worse was the rather visible blunder when dealing with the fire alarm on Saturday night. I was well into evacing my area before the DI around me have event caught on to what was going on, and even after that it was clear that not only did they not have a plan for an event like this, but most of them were incapable of thinking of one on the spot; as we saw with attendees being shuffled around out front, then to the garage, then to the main parking lot.
In fact when the alarm went off on Saturday night, the hotel's Security Manager arrived on site to assess how things were going. The guy is a DRM for the company I'm employed by, and he made several comments to me about how disorganized and unprepared the on site security was. I was even asked if I was apart of the con's security by him and was told "thank god" when I said 'no', as he said it would be embarrassing for the company if I had been.
And the fact remains, the size of the security team doesn't really matter. If the team is qualified, properly trained, and good at what they do then they should be able to adapt and handle any situation that arises. Even for the amount of attendee's FAU had, our Security team was quite small and yet my team wasn't overwhelmed and handled things quite well. A lot of that comes from the fact that they maintained a professional attitude, even in the face of difficult attendees, adapted as situations changed, and above all else, maintained respect towards those attending the convention -- which was something the Dorsai this year were seriously lacking.
Though I'm sure, there is more than just one point of view to this. The DI have been blamed for a lot of things and more often than not things cleared out to be a attendee that just couldn't bear to be told what to do and then caused drama about it.
And to all of you talking that shit "I always wanted to go but now I will not because of this" or "Now I know what the DI are!"... Please STFU. Don't blindly believe everything that is written on the internet. I don't know if the DI actually did what they are accused of, but even if; the last thing you should do is blame the staff of a convention for that or pass a fun time because of such things. That's just not fair. Listen to all sides of a story before you write down your opinion about something in stone.
My 2cents.
I also witnessed them shouting at people to get out of the way when the Fursuit Parade was about to come through (not asking, or even informing, but actually shouting), and also shouting at people to remove their hats when the national anthem was playing.
They are just as crazy at AC, it's simply easier to lose them in the crowd.
They were rude to me/others on more than one occasion at AC x.x
I was not in the con block that year. As far as I was concerned... once I stepped out of the con area they could seriously just FUCK OFF>
I have a string of mental conditions because of those sort of people. This would make me have a meltdown.
So I'm not going. Ever.
No offense to the FF staff.
the dorsai at FF 2008 made me feel really, really bad, but i've never had an issue with them like this.
total bummer, man.
That said, yes... it's sad this shit happened... but hopefully everyone else realizes how much of a mistake this was.
As for getting shoved by said rent-a-cop, he's lucky that it wasn't me that he shoved. I *WILL* press charges, and I know a DAMN good lawyer that absolutely has TEETH!
Correct. When you get abused by the Dorsai, there is nowhere to turn, as the head Dorsai and convention staff will gladly take their word over yours. The only recourse left seems to be public shaming.
Its a shame that one idiot caused a negative experience for you at FF.
For others reading, it doesn't mean that FF is a bad convention to attend... even if fire alarms go off at 4am ;)
http://www.di.org/songbook/dontask.htm
Yeah, I'm not going to FurFright then, if this is what's going to happen.
FLARE is different. I have yet to hear a horror story on FLARE.. or yet to see them at a con.. they're in the background and if something goes down they jump into action.. which is how a security firm should be. Security is there to protect their con-goers but also to ensure that they have fun and not hassle them and give them a hard time.
Ive personally never been to furfright, but your insight on it is making me not want to go at all
And I wouldn't wish this outcome on anyone...and I'm not meaning to be be mean here....but when I read...
"I've brought up these issues every year for the past five years to the convention and nothing has ever happened."
I can't help but find myself scratching my head, wondering why you even bothered after the 2nd year had the same problem.
Fool me once....
Maybe you were promised things would change, every year? If you were, I'd suggest making a point of holding whoever made that promise accountable. But still....5 times getting burnt before deciding to change something? You are way more patient than I would be.
Kudos for giving them chances, and from now on...screw em.
Looks like I can cross FF off the list of cons to go to. At least until this shit is corralled.
Period. And if it takes me cracking a skull open with a bat .. so be it.
normally at this point in a thread like this someone has shown up on the defensive. no one has done that yet. that's saying something!
I imagine this journal will ruffle a few feathers (pun intended, buhd!) but in a good way. My venting is NOT against Furfright. I like Furfright, but I'm done with the Dorsai. I will NOT be threatened to have the police called on me for merely standing near a door. It's just not right, especially since I've been doing FFs for almost about 7 years now.
well i meant, no one has shown up to defend them yet! i love Bellic & K'gra, and FF is a fun con <3
hurr hurr feathers XD
Let me tell you, I LOVE having MY time wasted. I'm sure it's no different in the US.
I even waited outside with a bunch of FF staffers who saw the entire thing go down *waiting* for the police to come. They didn't. The same Dorsai kept coming back over and demanding us to do X, Y or Z... but the guy never pushed on the issue further. I think either A) he knew he fucked up or B) he knew I called his bluff. If the later, I'm sorry, calling legal threats or stating you'll have me arrested is just not going to fly with me.
I did find it. Right next to the section on pancake mix.
Makes me wonder about reality.
I thought the hotel chained owned the hotel and merely permitted the con to use it.
Wrong.
There had been problems with non-attendees trying to crash the party, as well as "ghosts" trying to gain entry,
Every con has this problem, and so far they have all handled it way better than to block people from even entering the lobby.
So, yes, your ability to prove that you were part of the con is mandatory when the convention deems it.
This is beyond the scope of the convention's authority. They do not own the public lobby section of the hotel, nor the room tower.
Their unpleasant response when you choose not to is really not a surprise, as far as they know, you are unwelcome!
Yes, because when "fox news" is allegedly trying to gain entry -- rude and unprofessional security is totally the answer. Amateur hour.
Frankly, I'm surprised that registration wasn't at the front door, and that security wasn't limited to hotel entrances. But that's a talking point for next year.
Likely because these areas were, again -- outside the scope of their space and authority. Besides, the hotel employs its own security and that company does not allow an outside contractor to take full control of their sites without a fight. I would know, I work for that company.
There would be videos on youtube right now if the dorsai so much as laid a hand on you, because LOL POLICE BRUTALITY.
He never said it happened to him. Re-read the post, it happened to someone else. And there was plenty of witnesses, I interviewed most of them myself.
And on a final note, would it really hurt you to move away from a door because someone, asks you to?
Since we weren't actually blocking or all that near the door? Totally.
hah, there you are. i knew there would be at least one.
i disagree with you. i don't think Dragoneer was out of line. perhaps he got frustrated after he was pushed so many times, but i can't say for sure since i wasn't there. and i have been treated very very rudely by Dorsai in the past. one year i was even co- GoH at the con and a Dorsai wouldn't let me in to a panel room because "the guest of honor was talking", and then argued with me about whether i was GoH at all. i miissed out on a lot of GoH activity fun that year because i got disheartened after so many run ins like that.
so, in short, you won't change my opinion and i can't change yours. but that's cool anyway <3
oh, i can get sassy when provoked as well! all i'm trying to say is, i don't think you started shit, you reacted to it.
It is criminal.
Hands on chest is assault and battery right there.
If it is 100% ILLEGAL for security to put hands on anyone for a reason outside of personal self defense.
Asking a person to move is one thing. Not asking a person to move and just shoving them out of the way, as the witnesses state, puts the Dorsai in the wrong.
I've been to past FurFrights and past Anthrocons. They were never this bad, at least I'd never heard of stories that were this bad. Out of all the cons I've been to, I've never had to show my badge to stand in the lobby of the hotel. Maybe I'm just at the wrong conventions, then.
I like how you think that I seem to form my stance on the Dorsai based all on 'Neers' journal. Really funny. "Think for myself what really happened?" I was at the con! I'm not making this stance based on the fact that I was 3,000 miles away or that I've never been to a furry convention or FurFright before.
('Neer, no offense if you read this, I'm sure you're a great guy, I just don't know who the hell you are really xD. Haven't met you, haven't formed an opinion about you. We share a mutual friend. We should say 'yo' one day)
Do you think that "assault" means some sort of massive fight? Do you think this shove happened right in front of the security table? Wow! How ideal would that be! Go back and read about the shove. In the state FurFright is held in? That's grounds for assault. Attendees should not have to worry about possibly being shoved during a parade. Hands off, simple as that. Glad it wasn't me who got shoved and I feel sorry for the fur who did.
Have you even read the other journals and other reports of issues with the Dorsai or do you think those are random conspiracies against the group? Just curious. Have you gone around leaving these comments on their journals too? Sorry, haven't kept up on them.
So where SHOULD Dragoneer talk about these issues? I love how you saw this is a safezone. Really. It's a furry site. It's a very large furry site. It's a place where people talk about conventions after they've gone to them. I've complained about conventions on my Twitter and FA. I'll STILL complain about some conventions on my Twitter and FA. Hell, I've complained about my FA on FA
How bad was it? It's bad enough where I had to be concerned that something happened in the hotel for them to be checking badges at the door of the lobby and following patrons through the halls of the hotel, out of the major con space. I'm GLAD I stayed offsite with my Mom. I wouldn't have want to bring her in and have her checked at the door or hassled in the lobby for her key (since she was not a con attendee). If FurFright said something like, look, after the CO shooting we need to up our security, fine. Let the attendees know. But for the Dorsai to act like they acted this weekend without a reason for 'increased security'? How bad is it? This is the first year that I've seen and heard THIS many complaints about the Dorsai, namely a few members. And why? People are tired of it.
FurFright is a good con. It's my home convention. I'll be, most likely, moving to the west coast this summer and am looking at plans now to be able to make it back to the east coast for FurFright. I love it and want to see it improve in any way that it can. It's a con that I recommend to a lot of furries, especially for their first convention if they can go to it. That's why I'm really disappointed in things that have taken place this year. I'm worried about the first time attendees. My first FurFright, my first furry convention, left me with nothing but wonderful memories. I hope that no one was completely turned off by cons due to what happened this weekend.
I understand your stance and the issue and, please understand that I'm not here to change it, though I do not agree with it. Thank you for allowing me to discuss my side as well.
Out of curiosity, were you even at FurFright 2012?
I have nothing against the Dorsai, more rather a small issue with a couple of members, and have never had an issue with them before this con. I respect their position and your claim that "most of the complaints I've seen related to the Dorsai are from people who are unaware of the rules of the event they are attending, and/or don't like being told what to do from someone they don't know or respect as security." is a pretty damn big generalization and disrespectful to us who do work in security, respect security, and/or follow the rules of the convention.
What I DO have a problem with is the fact that some members of this "security" (and I'm using quotes here until I see that they are certified in the state of CT) team believe they can overstep their boundaries. I believe that there needs to be a reevaluation of their position and what they are allowed to do and not do.
Neer says right above that he's spoke to Gavin, for starts. I don't know if he's spoken to K'gra or Belic. We'll just have to wait and see what the response is.
It's not the con staff. It's not the volunteer security. It's the Dorsai.
I just don't know what it takes.
Security should be transparent, and only respond to issues and try to keep things safe for all attendees, not intervene or inject themselves into issues. This is ESPECIALLY true at conventions, where you should treat attendees with a friendly, light and professional approach. Why? There's a lot of drinking at conventions, and the last thing you want to do is set someone off who may not be completely sober. It doesn't end well, and generally results in rather unpleasant reactions. A gentle, friendly approach goes a long way.
I agree security should be transparent and show up when needed but from my encounters at the dealers room at AC, they typically aren't there when needed and when they are, they are uninformed. Like last year, I'm always at the front of the line for the opening day of the dealers room and those of us in line know what we're doing, we line up single file along the wall at a given point leaving lots of room between us and the door. Instead of putting some of the books int he bags for people, AC put them on a table by the wall near the front of our line and then the DI told us we needed to move and make room so people could get to them. So we ended up with 6 people in front of the table and the rest lining up behind it. We suggested them simple move it and they said they weren't allowed as the union needed to do it. So as we waited, people started showing up and budging in line. We called the DI over and pointed out who they were (we now had 10 people in front of the table) but those people told the DI they'd been in line the whole time so the DI simply walked away. This happened a couple more times as more people showed up and snuck in line which the same result each time we complained. We then asked DI if they would bring out the table chart from in the dealers room so we could see who was at what table and they told us there was a chart in the books (as there was every year but not this year). We told them there was not one and they began arguing with us about it so I handed them my book and told them to show me the list, which of course they couldn't find. So they went and got one of the AC staff who couldn't find it either and figured it must have gotten left out of printing. We asked if they could bring out some of the floor plan charts to post so people in line could see before getting in there and that didn't happen. Finally, after more nagging from several people in line, one of the DI went in to get the board from the room and slowly walked down part of the line so we could look at the table chart. I've seen and heard of many other problems like this at AC with them but I'm not going to list every thing out, specially things that didn't happen to me personally.
It's not rocket science.
I feel sorry that your go to convention has been such a disappointment man.
I should note that Steve and the other Dorsai continued to sit at their table and do nothing for several minutes as the fire alarm went off. An attendee started herding people out, because the Dorsai were doing nothing to help!
Perhaps you didn't read my comment? Steve was sitting at the security desk, he was not ushering anyone. The fire alarm had been going off for several minutes, and an attendee (not staff) started ushering people out because he realized that security was not doing anything. Steve got up after the attendees took charge of themselves.
He did have more important things to do, yes. It's a shame he was not doing them.
I'm rather thankful Gavin was there to see that. Because that was a pretty big issue.
Later, I heard that my mate and a friend had been sitting in his car in the parking garage with the heat on trying to keep warm. An orange shirt told them they couldn't stay there because they needed to do a head count!!! Seriously? That was the best excuse she could come up with? With what would they compare such a head count with? How could they even count an ever moving mob?
Going back to AC this year, one evening a group of us were sitting quietly on the roof of the convention center chatting. We were approached by a security member and asked to show our badges. I had already been through this routine several times that day and had removed my badge and put it in my pocket out of protest. I think being asked for it just to ride the escalator from the 2nd to 3rd floor of the hotel was what clinched it for me. Anyhow, I respectfully refused to show it on the grounds that we weren't in con space and we were clearly not doing anything wrong. The kid was polite and rather than make a scene himself, went to get backup. A short time later he reappeared and repeated his request for my badge. It was obvious he was putting on a show for someone out of site around the corner. I played along and repeated my reason for refusing his request. That was enough for the hidden witness. He came marching up and took over my interrogation. He was very upset and very loud and in my face. I was sitting the whole time and responding in a mild voice. When I asked him what right he had to demand to see my badge, his claim was that AC had rented every inch of the convention center, including the roof, and that only convention attendees could be anywhere on the premises and had to be ready to prove it at all times. He kept screaming at me and threatening the classics: if I did have a badge, he'd have it confiscated, I'd be banned from the con, he was going to call the Sheriff and have me arrested for trespassing... Against my better judgement but at the request of my mate, I finally gave in and showed him my badge. He called it down to security central and had them make a note on my personal record that I was being uncooperative and abusive!! He also made a mark on the back of my badge to show that I had my one and only warning and that any further transgressions would result in my immediate banishment. When recounting my tale to others, I was informed that all of the onerous badge checking was because their were rumors of people ghosting the con and they were determined to catch them at it. That's all well and good if they had confined their bullying to actual con space. Public areas of the convention center and hotel hardly fit that bill. :(
One of the defenses of the dorksai's actions is that we attendees are just being drama queens and if we would just comply with these unreasonable requests there wouldn't be any problems. I beg to differ. By acting like helpless sheep, they are just encouraged to continue this anti-social behavior. When you call them on their bullshit, they are being kept in check. They are supposed to be there for *our* safety, not for their own egos and power trips. I totally agree that the best security is invisible security, only visible when needed. Giving out bright shirts and funny hats does not lend itself to a low profile security force.
People do find ways to slip into places they shouldn't be, and the rooftop of the DLCC is not only largely unsupervised but dangerous place. A few years back, the con was charged several thousand dollars for a guy who was found by DLCC security on the wrong side of the balcony ledge. Now it turns out that person was doing something stupid and was effectively banned from the convention. But it caused AC to have to enforce the roof including a curfew and occupancy limit, as well as badge checks. EVERYBODY LOSES because of one idiot.
IDK about the the excuse for your car, but cars were being told to refrain from idling due to health concerns for everyone outside of the cars. In case you don't know, Connecticut has anti idling laws in place, and part of those laws is to protect bystanders. http://www.ct.gov/dep/cwp/view.asp?.....epNav_GID=1619
Again, EVERYONE LOSES, cause one person was an idiot.
Security isn't perfect, the con, hotel, and security have to work together, sometimes on the minute and make plays as they come.
You can make it easier on yourself and everyone involved if you what security asks, especially when you have nothing to lose by doing so except a little pride over not liking being told what to do. Otherwise, you risk BEING THAT IDIOT. If you have an issue, you can always take it up with the head of security, and con staff. And they do take meticulous notes about such transgressions.
Yes, I could have just showed him my badge as everyone else was cowed into doing, but seeing as this is America and we feel oppressed when asked for our "papers" at every turn, I took the road less traveled and politely refused the request. After having showed my badge countless times over the weekend, in and out of con space, I had had enough. To me, the request was not reasonable. Just because Kage is paranoid about ghosts is no reason to badger all attendees for their badges at every turn!
Those badges aren't there just to say you paid. They are there to differentiate you from the rest of the city who could walk into a public place like the DLCC. And you have to prove your ID at the door, just like you do to get your license. That badge says you are willing to accept the consequences of your actions, follow the rules on that piece of paper you signed. Rules which include respect to fellow con-goers, convention staff, local authorities (including security), and even the and respect the authority of the ones who help run the convention, as well as the security they bring. If you don't, they can take action against you.
And by choosing to hide your badge, you become anonymous. A person who has not agreed to those rules. Someone who does not respect other con-goers or the establishment that only exists so you can have a good time.
And if your attitude on the matter is that you don't have to take out your "'papers' at every turn", and that "Kage is paranoid about ghosts", then you don't deserve to attend the event. Because by refusing to wear the damned badge, do the one thing that says you are cool and we can trust you, you are lying to the convention about your intention to respect everyone else and just have a good time. And if you can't give a shit, we don't want you there.
For the record, I completely agree that Kage is paranoid about ghosts. ;)
When I "walk into a public place like the DLCC", I don't expect some third rate security wannabes to accost me and demand identification. The DLCC has their own guards and when you walk in from the street level, they do *not* ask for any sort of ID. They wave and smile and are friendly and do nothing to interfere with your trip up the escalator. Why does it have to be the complete opposite if you want to come across the bridge from the hotel instead? Why must you be growled at and scrutinized and forced to show your badge to go to the very same place? It is ridiculous and uncalled for. You are supposed to be making the attendees feel like welcome guests, not criminals!
Lucky for you, I am not in the position to promise anything.
However in the meantime I do want to explain another fallacy you seem to have fallen for. The DLCC cops, are mostly there to manage "empty space" they can afford to smile and wave at you, because you are walking in a place that has been rented, and which security has already been provided, the Dorsai Irregulars. As soon as you decide to roam and loiter in an unmanaged space, you may quickly find yourself "tazed" if you do not turn around and comply with the officer. Every other space, hallways, or rooms, until you reach the westin elevators, is basically Anthrocon's responsibility to secure.
Again, I will plea with you. If someone asks to see your badge, just be a nice person and let them. Because you don't know the reason, and it may be important to someone's health. If you don't you may not only find yourself unable to enjoy the con, but you may help to make it miserable for someone else, who was harmed because security had to sic the cops on your ass instead of the person they were looking for.
Which comes full-circle. Dragoneer had no idea why he was asked to prove his attendance at the hotel entrance. There was a reason. He alleges that because of his unwillingness to do so, he was threatened with the call of cops, among other things. Everyone involved just wanted to move along and take care of business. But that required a rather small amount of cooperation, which was not given.
This means they have no legal ground to do anything near public elevators, the public walkway, atendee's rented rooms (a contract between that individual and the hotel, of which the con and the DI are not a party), or anywhere at all that's not in con-rented space. They can't "enforce a curfew", they can't demand people show non-con ID, and they can't demand any ID whatsoever to enter any area that's not rented by the convention.
Is that clear enough? Dragoneer was 100% in the right. The only people with any legal authority to request he move were hotel-authorized staff and actual members of local law enforcement. I don't care what reasons the DI thought they had, they were wrong.
Examples:
The hotel owns the elevators, and says, you guys watch the elevators, keep a line. They do it.
The hotel owns the rooms, and says, you guys are here to make sure people aren't too loud. They do it.
The hotel says, we have problems with people who don't belong here, screen the main entrance. They Do it.
The convention center owns the public walkways and they say, make sure people can get through. They do it.
Anthrocon says, no weapons allowed, peace-bond the toys and keep the real thing away from us. THEY DO IT.
It's that simple. When situations escalate they call in the police, or have a licensed individual handle the problem. They have 37 years of experience, military, security, and emergency backgrounds. They are not stupid, they know what their jobs are and what they aren't.
Never once have I heard of a CT law where it is illegal to block a door...ever!
This I'd my third time at this con and the first I've heard of this specific group of con security acting like this to con attendees. They should be the ones to be banned instead of them trying to do so to you or anyone else that has fallen victim to them.
Based on the issues the hotel/convention has had in past years with local high school/college age folks coming in and causing problems, the hotel manager made the request Saturday night that the dorsai verify that the people entering the hotel were either con attendees or guests of the hotel.
Ideally this would have been a request he made before the convention started so that the attendees could be informed in advance that this would take place. But unfortunately that was not the case.
However since the hotel is private property and the hotel manager made the decision/requested this be done the dorsai were within their rights to do so.
It was not a case of the dorsai power tripping and taking it upon themselves to enforce rules they had no right to enforce.
And while I do believe such a request was made by the hotel manager, the Dorsai are not contracted by the hotel, they are contracted by FF LLC, so they could have refused the request (and should have, at that). The hotel's own security staff should've been the ones standing out there. If they were understaffed then fine, use the Dorsai. But at no point does that excuse the serious lack of tact and professionalism displayed by them in doing so.
As Security, you do not get to make demands; you can only make requests -- and those requests can be refused.
When I walked in it wasn't requested that I showed by ID, it was /demanded/ that I do so. When someone else entered, ID was again /demanded/. And when they refused? They didn't get a politely explained reasoning as to why this information was requested (or in this case, again, demanded), but instead they were accosted and stalked all the way to their hotel room without any explanation because "we don't need to explain it".
Power tripping security doesn't always manifest itself in the form of enforcing rules and policies they have no grounds nor authority to enforce. In this case it manifested itself in a "holier than thou" attitude that caused many attendees to feel on the spot. And to think, it all could've been avoided with words like "please", "thank you", and a rather simple explanation as to WHY.
The hotel would be really fucking stupid to do that, but if they did actually grab random un-trained and un-licenced "security" to restrict access to their property then they deserve everything that happens to them. That's a fuckup bad enough to get a GM fired for allowing it to happen.
don't really know who or wat are dorsai but this journal clearly states that this is the work of a troll
i don't think they should let dorsai near the fur cons, they might give off negativity toward us or they are probably doing it to everyfur that is randomly near them and looks like a perfect target
i thought he did
nvm then
well actually doesn't he run AC and the dorsai are there????
Not all con attendees like being told they cannot do something, especially when they can't find a place in the rules of conduct where it says they cannot. But sometimes we all have to, for everybody's sake.
I have to wonder if it is select people, or if some people are just picked on by them? o.O Makes ya wanna go "hrmmmnnn..."
Some people just powertrip so hard that it's scary and I feel bad for the staff and security that legitimately do a good job and stay polite and friendly while on duty. I didn't have any bad experiences myself, but it's unnerving to say the least that security is allowed to act in such a horrible fashion.
Yep, that's what happened to us, but we didn't have our badges... and they refused to let us in. They wanted our room keys or IDs, but I felt that was too much, and we declined. Luckily, the director of registration was with us, and they backed off after they realized it.
Of course, you could sue civially for rates paid to the hotel without service being provided as agreed - but that is after the fact. Not for them denying you access.
I have had only problem with "Dorsai" if they are just security. That would be allowing food and drinks into the AC dealers den. Which I saw people in the dealer den before it was even open with all kinds of food and drinks.
So misinformed rules or something else was the problem with me.
I asked if i could bring them in and was told no.
I walked along the bridge with the window view down to the Dealer Den and, BAM. At lest 10 people had drinks and food down there.
I ask again and was still told no.
It sucks, but not uncommon these days.
Given the Den sells food, I could totally see that... though I think a beverage would be another story. I've walked in there with drinks before with no issue.
ANY rule upsets me if someone else is allowed to do it. Ether because they don't get caught or they are higher in power. So seeing 10 people with food, and not able to feed my "must draw to pay for neat stuff at AC" friends kind of annoyed me.
I do, fully, truly understand there view point...but they allowed it in the first place and allowed it for COUNTLESS OTHERS that went in the first moment it open. I had to re-ask after the whole line was done and was finally allowed in.
Damn it.
So....it made me a sad lynx. Ya...I'll admit.
~Fin~
Take it up with the DLCC, or ask what Anthrocon has to pay to get that privilege waivered and see if you would be willing to have that amount added to your conbadge cost.
I think someone had a raging hard on when acting like a giant prick just because.
I didn't mean to imply that someone who had a Concealed Carry permit would INTENTIONALLY make things worse for everyone. Drawing attention to yourself like that is an INCREDIBLY stupid thing to do...ESPECIALLY in an environment where drama buttons seem to have a hair trigger.
However - and I feel as though I should apologize for even entertaining the far-fetched idea - it might not be a matter of if someone makes it an issue...but when. You have no idea how badly I want to be proven wrong on this.
But goodness forbid there is a situation of a "worst case scenario", that Dorasi might get hospitalized. >.<
Sorry to hear you had such a crappy time thanks particularly to the security; I know that would keep me away too.
When you function as con security? You ID yourself as con security.
I've been doing the professional security / emergency response circuit for six years now, that's how this works.
And again I say -- you can not, in any way, ID as security nor ACT as security, in ANY capacity, without having been licensed by CT DPS.
I really don't know any other way to get this across to you.
http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2256.....2d5a929ad3.jpg from furfright
both have 'security' on them
the frumpy security forces
Mobilize the swat team somone reported a missing cruller
Release of Liability: Personal Injury
Neither FurFright nor the hotel shall be responsible for any personal injury which occurs before, during, or after the convention. Despite the convention and hotel's precautions, mishaps sometimes occur. If you are injured and need medical attention, we will do what we can to help you contact medical professionals, but we cannot provide medical care for our attendees.
this does not stand legally if one of their employees or volunteers injures you due to lack of training or abuse of authority.
Furry cons sound retarded.
So, yes, as the cons are a fully private event they can exclude anyone they damn well please for no reason at all besides "We feel like it" more of less, especially with the recent supreme-court ruling in favor of the Boy Scouts of America being able to exclude gays based on their sexual orientation.
I didn't have too many issues but there was at least one moment where I was told to move away from the top of the escalator that was hardly being used at near midnight because I was too close. Well there was a good 5 ft or more and plenty of walking path between myself and the escalator. I almost wanted to tell the guy you know piss off there is a path. I was also aware of if someone came up and I so happen to be in the way to move.
I had moved and the group I was talking to shifted a little and then I'm told to move again. I dunno seemed like they were bored.
That said, I'm not defending them. I just would like to hear both sides of the story, because I'm baffled, I've been to Anthrocon twice now (2011 and 2012) and have only had positive experiences with the Dorsai. :(
Hopefully this is something that gets worked out. Thanks for keeping us informed.
Trying to put the hotel on "lockdown" is a bit ridiculous. If there's a threat the police should be involved. All this did was inconvenience the attendees.
"Have no fears of "overbearing Stormtroopers" enraging your confolk."
Seems that went out the window a long time ago...
I honestly believe they won't last long as security for any con if they keep this stuff up.
But more importantly.. why didn't you just move over a few feet? I live in ct, fire laws are very strict. They have to be, its really for the bet. Overall they sound obscenely excessive, and definitely don't have any proper authorization (and probably no training). Are they common at cons? I went to ff in '10 and didn't have any problems.
So I was fed up. I'm not going to keep shuffling around for no reason at all, and it's not fire code either (given we had an emergency responder in our group who verified the law). It was just "move". Just because. And I drew the line, tired of it.
I've worked for a security company before.. there are classes you are required to take.. a refresher on how to handle certain situations.. and people..
If Dorsai doesn't have such training.. what the hell are they even doing at a con with hundreds of people... I don't even.. wtf.
They sound like a bunch of bullies.
Dorsai and Furry
The first appearance of the Dorsai at a furry convention was at Anthrocon 2002. They have returned to provide security services for AC every year since, each time with a larger and larger set of members.
(I LOLD SO HARD AT THIS PART UNDER HERE!)
Due to the general good response to their work at Anthrocon, the Dorsai began working various furry conventions. Most of these have now established ongoing working contracts, including FurFright, Furry Connection North, IndyFurCon, and of course Anthrocon.
(Anyone care to tell me WHY they're still here?)
The Dorsai regularly call on non-members they trust to fill out large contracts or contracts in areas where they do not have enough local members. The last few years there has been a notable number of furs working with the Dorsai at such conventions as MagFest (video gaming and rock'n'roll), Confluence (literary science fiction convention), Conclave (general science fiction convention) and others.
Furry author/cartoonist Mel. White has been a member of the Dorsai Irregulars since 1988, and is credited with originally bringing the Irregulars to the attention of Anthrocon's leadership. Giza was inducted into the Dorsai Irregulars in March, 2008.[7] Noted furry artist Diana Harlan Stein is also a member.
In addition, the Dorsai regularly call on a group of reliable friends and companions to help with heavy staffing required at Anthrocon and other large cons. A very partial list of that group includes Tori Clayton, Samantha Gobeyn (Bookie), Karen Klink, Alex Krumwiede, Geoff Lamb, Miranda Radelt, Dave Roach, Sandy Schreiber, and Max Sprinkle (inducted March 2009)
The Dorsai need to go, plain and simple. FurFright used to be my "go to" con, where I knew I could have fun with friends, party, and turn it into a decent vacation. Over the last 5 years, the Dorsai have single-handedly done the job of making me utterly loathe the convention, and turn my vacation into an incessant stream of constant annoyances, barked orders, and frustrations. I sincerely hope the FF staff reads this thread, because I know at least 8 other people who will not be returning to FurFright (myself included) because of this debacle. I never had a problem with the security during FF's pre-dorsai days, nor do I ever have a problem at FA:U or other cons. Why anybody uses this group of unprofessionals is beyond me.
My hope is that enough people complain and speak up to the staff members at FF. I'll hope for a miracle that they finally listen to you and everyone else.
Im sorry this happend to you. I hope Papa Bear could fix this to where it doesnt happen again.
I'm sorry that you and your group had such trouble! I hope this is taken care of.
Most people at cons end up staying awake until all hours of the night, and the room walls tend to be insulated very well in hotels (we're not at a Motel 6, people). To go around trying to prevent a problem that doesn't exist, is only going to cause more issues and frustrations. People are smart enough to contact the room owners / front desk in case of a noise complaint, it isn't the con's responsibility to play nanny.
That is part of the agreement that AC has with the Westin as far as I know, that AC will be the first responders to any complaints.
Now if you get the pissed off Dorsai, or are just rude to them, that is when things go wrong.
If it's otherwise I do see a major liability problem in the making.
I kinda wanted to go to Furfright. Grateful I didn't, and now it seems I no longer have any intention on going.
Security first and foremost is to observe, and help everyone stay safe. Touching people, yanking badges/lanyards, getting in people's faces, and starting off in aggro-mode are all signs of shitty security who have no business in that position. Most any situation can be easily resolved by speaking like an intelligent adult. If this guy was worried about the door being blocked just give a "Careful, we may have people coming through here in a moment so I'm just trying to keep it clear" as it works 99% of the time.
I know of someone they pushed against a wall at a different con who will not ever go to anything they appear at, and several others who are very loathing to see them due to run-ins like yours. I'm very easy going, but if one touches or pushes me, they're going to get touched back as that line ends about an inch from my face.
It would be wonderful if he did, but Kage is not as important as you think he is. He has nothing to do with running the Dorsai, nor with any convention that uses them other than Anthrocon.
And even then it's a "Hey guys, could I get you to move off to the side so we don't clog up the hallway/doorway?"
I have never had an issue with this.
Make a petition, state your case, add a couple of signed statements of people who've had bad experiences, write it for higher staff members on cons you guys know hire them and just downright push them. Tell them unless they come clean and let us know before their next con that the Dorsai have been dismissed all of these people refuse to attend.
A con like FurFright is composed of what, a couple of hundred people? I'm pretty sure it'd be easy to get as many signatures as their last attendance numbers, that should SCARE them into acting, since apparently negotiations have been useless so far.
What do you think, isn't it worth a try?
Awful what happened to you.
There's no such a think like a Dorsai in where I live, so I just asked. Sorry if I'm so ignorant for you, tool.
Sorry for the typo...unless you're a grammar nazi adding to be such a tool.
I witnessed the Dorsai member Renegade assault that attendee during the Fursuit Parade. Make no mistake, it was assault. I saw the poor guy turn away in disgust, and a moment later I saw he was gone. "Unacceptable" doesn't even come close to describing what Renegade did. He needs to be banned from ever returning to FurFright. This is not the first time I have seen him use force on a guest, and I am not exaggerating when I say that I cannot feel safe with Renegade around.
I also had an issue with "Sergeant" Steve (who incidentally is not a Sergeant in any legitimate police, security, or military organization by the way - he is a UNIX systems administrator). I was entering the hotel at around 1:30 or 2:00am, not passing through any convention space, when he stopped me from returning to my room. I asked why he had the right to stop me outside of convention space, and he told me - exact quote - "I am the hotel manager." Since I have never seen a hotel manager wear a blaze orange "Security" t-shirt and a Dorsai beret, I told Steve we should go talk to the hotel front desk. Once there he backed off his claim, first stating the hotel told him to say he's the manager, then backing down again to say the hotel was allowing him to stop people. I proved to the hotel front desk that I was a guest - since I did not feel comfortable giving my information to Steve - and they informed Steve that I was allowed to be there. Steve then left. (I will add - because I do not want to be too lopsided in my depiction - that I was certainly angry and impatient with Steve through my entire interaction with him. I had no politeness in me. This is no way excuses Steve's actions.)
Let me make this clear - I was no in convention space for any of this time. While the FurFright code of conduct never defines the term, I was in areas of the hotel which any non-furry paying guest would be allowed to occupy.
On going to my room, I realized I was being followed by another Dorsai, whose badge identified him as Crimson. As I turned around, I noticed one of them at the end of the hallway pretending to text someone. I walked past him to the vending machine, and he left. I again walked towards my room, turned around a few doors short of it, and saw he was back. I approached him and told him I felt like I was being followed - he said "That's because you are." I said to him "I don't appreciate that," and he had the audacity to respond by asking "Why not?" When I informed him that nobody who has done nothing wrong would appreciate being followed by someone whose intentions they do not know, he had no response. In order to get him to leave (so as not to reveal to him which room I was staying in), I had to show him my attendee badge and a hotel room key, despite moments ago having proven myself to both Steve and the hotel staff.
This is clear and blatant harassment, and is beyond unacceptable. I graduated high school over 13 years ago, I am done with presenting a hall pass to anyone.
I went to the hotel front desk again, without Steve present, and went over what happened with Hal (the real hotel manager). He was apologetic but I do not believe he took my complaint seriously. His idea of an apology was a free voucher for the breakfast buffet. Scrambled eggs and waffles do not say "I am concerned about what happened."
I went to the Security desk the next day with a friend who is an actual, licensed, Connecticut state security officer to ask about the incident. Unfortunately Steve was manning the desk. Steve told my friend that he felt threatened by me, because I had told him "we're about to have a problem" and we should "take this outside." This is such a blatant lie that I do not even know how to properly respond. Anyone who knows me will pick that out as a lie, because unlike the Dorsai, I never resort to threats of violence against others. It makes me literally nauseous, physically ill, to have a member of FurFright Security who is trusted with a position of authority tell such a blatant lie about me, to my face and no doubt to FurFright and Dorsai staff as well, to make himself and his actions look better when confronted about them.
Those are the worst incidents, but there were several others that were less severe, but still unprofessional. While speaking at a normal volume with one other person in my guest room, a Dorsai member knocked on my door and told me I needed to be quiet. On another night, while admittedly being loud, they interrupted again to say there was a "curfew" and we needed to quiet down, despite deliberately being in a room that was part of the "party block" where late night noise was to be expected. I have also been rudely yelled at by Dorsai members to move out of hallways, sidewalks, and other public areas.
As a final insult, when the hotel fire alarm went off at about 4:00am, I actually watched Steve leaning back in his chair at the Security desk, doing absolutely nothing to help evacuate the building or assist the guests. It wasn't until another attendee started telling people we needed to evacuate that I even saw him stand up.
My 10-year run is at an end, as is my vocal support of this convention. I cannot and will not return to FurFright so long as the Dorsai are allowed to be present, and I cannot recommend that anyone else go either.
You say you won't let any bad incident stop you from attending, but I was personally harassed and bullied by them. They lied to my face, lied about me to others, and stalked me to my guest room. If you were in my place, I assure you that you would not feel like going back.
Also trust me if they harass me, they will experience a nightmare like no other. I don't have many connections, but the ones I do are very well cemented. I will not allow a single individual or group to wreck my con experience. I will NOT. ALLOW IT. I'm a rule abiding citizen, and I've followed the rules ALL my life to the point of stupidity. When people decide to wreck things for me I ensure it isn't forgotten about or neglected.
The real problem is that it's not a single individual who is the problem. I personally witnessed at least three of them being completely out of line - "Sergeant" Steve, Renegade, and Crimson - and have heard of at least a couple others from trusted friends. It's systematic.
I will not give up my hard-earned money and vacation time to support these people. I could put the expenses towards a vacation that I actually enjoy. It is not my job to police these freaks.
Last I checked, the bar/restaurant in the con hotel was not part of con space. (Last I checked, any part of the hotel where you didn't have to have your badge to enter, where non-conventiongoers could access, was not part of con space.) If I'm wrong in this assertion, someone please feel free to correct me. Also if an off-duty Dorsai member who explicitly said he was off-duty, and who is drinking (I saw him have at least two stiff drinks, if not three) can still pull your badge, then someone please feel free to correct me.
Not saying...
...just saying.
"But security should be transparent, and only be there in the event of a problem."
I have to disagree on this point. While I agree that security should only be taking action in the event of a problem, it's actually my opinion that it's good for security to be clearly visible. Not looming, mind you, but available in case something happens. On more than one occasion, I have heard from people that something happened and they couldn't find security; this is not a good outcome, in my eyes.
As for the rest of it...
In the interest of fairness, I will reserve judgment until/unless the Dorsai come forward with their side of the story. That said, what you've posted is pretty damning.
What we mean is to relax, chill the hell out, blend in, but if needed, be visible to the point an attendee can and will approach.
We arent the police. We're here to help if needed, and in the mean time, just relax and have fun.
The problem with Dorsai, is they have no vested interest in our community, other than $$$$ (if they even get paid to do security, this im unsure about)
That said, I'm pretty happy with our security as it currently stands, and I think you will be too.
But when people walk around in full security uniforms a lot of people tend to feel uncomfortable. And we also have several police officers on hand at all times (bonus: they're our charity!).
It really is one of the things I enjoy about our Sec Staff. You generally have no idea we're there until you need us to be, and then when its all said and done we disappear back into the mists of mystery, never to be seen again until we're needed.
Criminally insane in the head who doesn't give a damn about the others. Yeah that crap about pushing others isn't called for
Who can then? I mean, someone hired them, right? That person should be their boss xD
So, instead of putting words in my mouth, you should maybe try to understand the context here. You do not know me at all. I am a passive person. But if someone touches me without my permission that is grounds for me punching that person in the face.
What I am saying here is that I wish this situation would have happened to me so that something would have immediately been done about it, instead of it happening to a person who felt as though they needed to stand down.
But please, continue to be presumptuous.
You're correct, I don't know you, and I don't think you're a person I care to know.
First, I've attended Anthrocon for several years now, and I've literally never had an issue with the Dorsai beyond one or two being a bit gruff...and, to be honest? I can see how wrangling several thousand furries might get on someone's nerves, so I can forgive them this minor oversight. It's hard to smile sometimes. For the most part, I've found them to be polite and helpful, sometimes going out of their way to help me find what I was looking for.
Second, it's my understanding - and don't quote me on this - that the DI is a force staffed by different people at different conventions. In other words, the DI you see at Anthrocon may have all, some, or none of the same people you see as part of DI at FurFright. (Probably not all.) If you had a bad experience with the Dorsai at FurFright, you have my sincere condolences, but please keep in mind that making assumptions about Anthrocon's Dorsai would be fallacious.
Third, it's never okay to get physically aggressive with an attendee under any circumstances. I'm not saying this did or didn't happen - I wasn't there - but that's a rule we make very clear to EVERYONE. Pretty much the only time you should be laying hands on someone else is in general affection (hugs, scritches) or if someone is hurt - something we've been very fortunate to avoid thus far - and even then only to try to help them. This is something I feel very strongly about: no one, at any convention, should ever have to fear for their physical safety. That is just plain intolerable.
Finally, I want to remind everyone that security is generally your friend at furry conventions. Even though there may be aberrations here and there, it would be tragic if the end result of this situation was an anti-security sentiment even at conventions where the Dorsai aren't a factor. It's my sincere hope that the people hiring the Dorsai take all stories into account - both those of the offended attendees, and those of the Dorsai themselves - and offer the necessary counsel to help the Dorsai to improve their procedures and policies to help prevent this sort of debacle from being repeated.
Again, I'm not casting aspersions on who's right or wrong. I wasn't there, and the Dorsai haven't (and might not) come forward with their viewpoint. I only want this to be fixed, in whatever form 'fixing' may entail, so that the DI can be an effective and welcome security force at conventions. Security is a difficult and largely thankless job, and one I wouldn't want to take on.
Please read my journal on this as well - http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3971538/
This is not a "minor oversight."
It's my sincere hope that the people hiring the Dorsai take all stories into account - both those of the offended attendees, and those of the Dorsai themselves
"Sergeant" Steve was willing to look me in the eye and lie to me, twice. One of the lies was to claim I threatened him physically. He did this because he was being confronted about his behavior. No doubt he thought by claiming I threatened him, his own actions would look better.
I hope they take that into account as well.
And yes, I hope that all of the facts are taken into account. I agree with you on that.
By hiring the Dorsai to represent FurFright, this means the Dorsai's problems are FurFright's problems. It is up to FurFright to address those issues, since it is clear the Dorsai will not.
What about guests of the hotel who AREN'T attending the convention? That's bullshit...
Unless you've rented out the entire hotel (not unheard-of, but rare), it's unreasonable to expect to have control of who enters and exits the building.
They claimed there were none.
I mean, this isn't Arizona. Why are we asking attendees for their papers? All this does is inconvenience attendees (at best) and cause issues for those not prepared for these "checkpoints".
However hotel guests CAN have a few friends with them to come up with them to their room. (And they don't restrict access to their lobby and casino because well that'd be stupid; major loss of profit)
As long as you have a room ANY hotel will allow you to bring guests into your room -no matter HOW strict the security is. I've never heard of any place that wouldn't.
btw, I don't mean to harp on, but it's been five months since you said you'd look into my issue and I've heard nothing?
Its against the fire code to be doing such things and I'll happily file a report with the CT DPS officers when they reopen on Wednesday.
But seriously, it's gotten so absurd that it's crossed straight past the "laughable" zone, and lands flat into "sad" territory. I've seen the DI get worse and worse every year (both at AC and FF) since 2003, groaned when FF decided to use them in 2007 (I think?), and have moved fully into boycotting any con that decides to use these morons. I'm a grown adult with a full-time career and a relationship. I don't need to waste my vacation and money on an event that clearly doesn't care about treating their customers with respect.
I hear it was... a lot of.... fun?
...shame I couldn't go?
The corp I work with has very strict rules that we MUST follow. Such as we may never touch anyone unless they prove to be a active threat to the people around them or to us personally.
We also MUST talk to people with dignity and respect at all times.
On behalf of my entire profession, I offer my apologies.
Now what I really want to know if these dorsai people are professional security personnel or just some crack-team thrown together on the spot?
But what I personally witnessed this weekend directly contradicted that.
I just hope that the people responsible for their abuse of power are dealt with and that those whom were wronged get compensation.
I do believe there are some really good people among them, maybe even the majority, but the truth is those few bad apples that have been around FOR AGES without any visible reprimand are enough to ruin the event for everyone, and that is just unacceptable. I think it's sad that some good guys are going to pay, but the problem within' their organization seems to be endemic.
Nobody's trying to burn the whole group but the truth of the matter is the bad seems to outweigh the good, and it has been so for a long time now.
Edmund Burke's said it best when he said: "Evil prevails when good men fail to act" - The Dorsai failed to clean up the act of the few, so the solution is dismissing the group as whole. It's not 'unfair', it's 'expected' after nearly a decade of impunity.
My roommates were having a quarrel so I decided to step out to the patio for some quiet time, and try to think over on how to handle the situation. At the time, there were issues with the hotel where they had closed off the atrium/zoo to attendees. The hotel wasn't permitting anyone to be there. The patios/balconies to the rooms were connected directly to the atrium When Renegade came up to me, he told me I wasn't permitted to be in "restricted con space". Apparently, that include my room's patio. I told him I understood the Atrium was off limits, but I was staying on my patio since there was fighting in my room. He told me that was unacceptable, and I had to move. But I was in my room's space, and tried to explain the patio was a part of the room, and didn't quite understand why a room's patio or balcony would be "private con space". He told me if I kept arguing he would de-badge me and I'd be removed from the con.
It didn't make any sense to me, and I felt I was justifiably in my own room space. He repeated himself. I was rather heated at the time, and told him that if he TRULY felt my room's patio was a part of restricted con space then he could reach over and take my badge, but that if he did, I would call the hotel security and inform them he had trespassed into my room. I put the ball in his court. He walked away.
And yet, during this time, "Cake con" (an event held at Furfright) was going on across the other side of the atrium. In their room. And on their patio. People filtering in and out of the area. And Dorsai were even at the party, which was flooding out into the so-called "restricted con space". So yeah. I can't stand on my patio... but they can have a party with dozens of people in/out of a single hotel room. I'm not allowed to be on my room's patio, but a few dozen people at a party attended by the Dorsai are? Shenanigans. I reported it to con staff. Nothing happened.
That's when I started getting REALLY angry over all of this, and it certainly didn't help it was the same guy over and over again.
This kind of behavior is unacceptable for any convention staffer, I dont care who the hell they are (or think they are) and I would have reacted just like dragoneer (or responded with a even less pleasant "Why should I move?"), these people are paying guests - and while they are not perfect, they pay the bills for your convention and are one of the reasons your event exists.
No con is perfect, but it's the response and how you handle the situation that gets the results. But when you can't get results, or the people in charge outright lie to your face, you have no options. And thus... here we are.
I was more speaking in practice, and honestly, of the past. The problems I observed with FLARE are honestly ancient history (2007/2008) and I have not seen them in recent memory.
I sent Gir Tygrin (the dude who runs FCN) an email with a link to this journal and my concerns.
I really hope this sort of thing stops. I don't want to have to worry about my friends and I getting hassled at the ONE vacation we ever get every year.
I've heard from a few friends how great of a time FCN is, and was actually budgeting to attend this coming year, but the fact that they use the Dorsai as security is reason enough for me to stay far away. As I said in a previous post, cons are kind of vacations for me, and I'm not going to throw away several days of vacation time as well as money on a con that has the very real possibility of these lunatics ruining it.
Unfortunately, I cannot place myself under their care, and I will not attend FCN as long as they allow the Dorsai to represent them. I am glad that FCN has not had issues with them yet. It is only a matter of time, and I will not be there when it happens.
they were pretty low key at FCN this year. i had no issues with them at that con whatsoever!
FCN rocks, you must keep attending :D
Maybe FCN does that (I don't know), but Furfright does not. They're in charge of themselves.
Security should NEVER, *EVER* touch attendees. But I've seen it all too much from the Dorsai. I've spoken out against them in the past, but mostly kept quiet. After this con... I just can't hold it in any longer.
As someone who works in the Security/Loss Prevention field (including 4.5 years as a contract guard), I'm sorry that you had to deal with this. I read your and Silver's con reports and found myself shaking my head and being appreciative that my manager has always reinforced the fact that as Security, we are the representatives of the people we work for. To not have accountability is also an issue because it allows egos and malicious personalities to flourish unchecked.
I honestly just don't think they fully understand what "Security" really is. They treat it as though their the FurFright Police Department. Actually, I shouldn't even say that, because if they really were the FFPD they'd know how to handle a fire alarm!
What it sounds like to me is the group was ill-prepared and did not meet with hotel management prior to the con or even at the con, which is a huge red flag. If they had partnered with the hotel, the evacuation procedure would have been handled much, much better. And they should be glad that there were no medical issues, as well. Their lack of foresight and partnership with the hotel could have had a much worse outcome.
On Twitter, last night before I finally passed out, I recounted that I have done a stint as MFF Con Security. I did one year and was asked not to come back to their team because I was being a cocky know-it-all little shit. And, you know what? Looking back, it was a much-needed and now greatly appreciated kick in the ass to come off my high horse and remember the job I was assigned to do. (At this point, I note that with security being my breadwinner, I really have little desire to work it during a con.) I've also learned some important lessons the past few years about properly managing access control and building security by involving the people. My biggest lesson? When I have an opportunity to address an issue, it is far better to use that time to build a relationship with the person and explain to or show them the correct way to do something rather than yell at them and make them resent the interaction. The latter is what happened with you and others.
I guess the proper breed got cycled out for a group with issues.
This is a serious issue which affects a lot of people.
If they are indeed power tripping, bullying, and being abusive, something definitely needs to be done to remind these people as to what their duties actually are, and to bring them back to the respectable security team I've always seen them as.
And I'm more than happy to insure that the individuals responsible get stuck with the full cost of the repair bill. Trust me. A hotel has no problem suing the individual attendees/room owners for their repair damages. =3
However, there have been incidents that have involved public con space like zoo areas and other conference rooms. People have too much to drink and then start damaging those. It's harder to pinpoint who did what at that point, and blame then gets shifted to the event as a whole.
What the dorsai have enforced is that at a certain time, all public gathering rooms and convention space be vacated. If people want to party in their rooms, that's fine and encouraged. But the zoo shuts down, and gathering in public hallways and the lobby is discouraged.
Another thing to note is that this was never anything the Dorsai put in place This was at the con's discretion, and the Dorsai's only job was to enforce it. This was also on a Sunday night, at 1 am. Anything earlier than that wouldn't make any sense.
Again, this whole thing disappoints me.
Add the facts that they are apparently not accountable to either the con, nor the hotel, that they regularly consume drugs and alcohol on duty, that they are acting without the proper licenses and I highly doubt they have liability insurance either, and you have a recipe for trouble. I'm really surprised the hotel is OK with that. Businesses usually balk at those sort of things. I guess that's something you can try, get the hotel involved, give them a run-down of what they're getting themselves involved with by allowing the Dorsai to act as hotel security... it's kind of a "nuclear option" though.
I've never been to a Dorsai run convention so I can't really speak from experience. The cons I've attended have split the security between the hotel security, who are basically there to keep people from damaging property and disturbing the peace, and convention staff security who are basically there to limit the access to event rooms to registered attendees. And it's always seemed to work well.
You need to take FA down until the Dorsai are gone. If you have not done so, it is only because you do not understand the power you have in your paws. (Claws?)
The shit storm will make everyone forget all abut Sandy Hurricaine.
Yeah, taking down a site that helps artists get revenue to complain about bad security and reduce the ease of conversation that could be had in such a fluid forum via comment section is a good idea.
Really, think about that for a moment.
Dragoneer has already started a shit-storm. Trust me, there are more forums and people talking about this now and twitter is abuzz.
Based on the immense drama when it goes down of it's own accord, FA is a biological need for furries, on par with air, water, food, and sleep.
They will do whatever it takes to get FA back online.
The site's users deserve better (and will get better later this week, actually!).
While it is legally and morally unconscionable to kidnap a human being as part of the inducement to pay a ransom, I am not aware of any law or moral code that requires an Internet service provider to continue providing a service.
"When Private Pyle [fouls] up, I will not punish HIM! I will punish ALL OF YOU!"
While I strongly disagree with the subsequent physical assault by the rest of the platoon... the punishment of innocent individuals was extremely effective in getting the drill sergeant what he wanted out of Private Pyle.
You just don't get it.
What I am suggesting would be neither right nor fair, but it would likely be successful.
Very rarely in life do we get to be right and successful.
I honestly think there's a lot more legitimate uses for security -- Dealer's Dens being one of them. I often find people clog the isle as they stop and talk in the middle of them, and it causes a lot of blockage. I've gotten caught up in them, too. Makes a lot more sense to police those than other things. Keep the flow moving.
Hotel space is really an issue for the hotel's internal security, at least that's my view /unless/ it's directly in event space.
Fur cons and uniformed security just don't mix well. Attendees feel like they're being watched and it tends to bring down the fun level. I hate attending events that have noticeable security, sometimes it just feels like they're looking for something to do.
An all vol. security staff that's either staffed by trained guards (or at least with a trained department head to lead them) is a good thing. That way there's no uniform requirements. They keep out of plain sight of the attendees, which puts them less on edge (which also decreases the likely hood of someone acting out for attention).
If or when there is an incident, the Sec Staff comes running, handles it, then blends back in again. It does work, just need the right people to do it.
(* MFF '09/'10 - basically known by many as the HALLWAY NAZIS...they would scream at you "GET OUT OF THE HALLWAY!" when it was similarly a massive hallway, with one person over to one side, and NOBODY around to be obstructed... it didn't help they also screamed this out 5 inches from my fucking ear :/ twats.)
If the hotel has asked the security to keep the hallways clear just be up front with it. There's nothing wrong with telling folks "The hotel has asked us to keep the hallways clear. If you guys want to talk, hang around, why not try the zoo, your room, X, Y or Z" and give them alternatives.
Politely asking people to move along is one thing, shouting or being down-right abusive is entirely another. In our example with MFF, we weren't asked once and ignored the "staff" - we were simply screamed at right up close to my freakin' head without any prior warning.
I'm all for cons complying with hotel guidelines, but there's no need to be a c*nt about it - and it seems that you are suffering something that seems entirely c*ntish.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanfo.....son_experiment
Security must have someone to answer to, and unfortunately, at FurFright they answer only to Belic and K'Gra, who have proven they do not take these complaints seriously.
Also, that wasn't after the issue with the fire alarm, so they've no excuse to strain to accomodate for just being bloody rude
Maybe Dragoneer could take a lesson in how to run a website, in which you need to do some tough decision. But not is just me on this, but he many problems. But handling the staff seems to be one he could never. Much like security of cons that hire this people. So this helps in some way or still be the same. I think what is broken on this site stays broken. Because I seen few on Dragoneer page, in which this staff is incomplete as DI people. But that is my two cents on this.
Besides, this thread obviously is not meant to attack Belic - though I'm afraid some will use this as an opportunity to do just that. This is about the Dorsai Irregulars, which is an issue extending far beyond FurFright because of the number of conventions they show a presence at and the influence they have on the way convention security is run.
I always get bummed out when someone can't go, or chooses not to; even if I barely know them (which is odd, I guess.)
My post is about them, NOT the con. If the Dorsai were removed tomorrow, I would go back to championing the con as it is my /go to/ con. It is the /only/ con I will not miss. But I will also not be threatened to be arrested and jailed over an incredibly minor issue, or stand by and watch people be assaulted.
If the Dorsai are removed, I'll gladly post about it and give them due praise. Furfright is one of the best cons I've ever gone to. However, the security is amongst the worst I've ever seen.
I'm by far from the only one voicing these complaints. Read through the comments. There's lots of other journals about it. Furfright is a great con, but until the Dorsai are gone I can not currently endorse it.
Hell, I was blamed for the "fire" at 4:00am on Sunday morning by the security.
At what point is enough enough?
I'm sorry, but absolutely not. 4 years worth of reports, witness accounts, and such should've taken care of the problem before this point. It didn't, so here we stand.
If people are choosing not to attend a convention based on the fact that its "security" team is pants-on-head stupid at times? That isn't a reflection on Dragoneer posting a journal, nor the people who have posted their own stories (many of which happened at AC, not FF). That's a reflection on the convention that continues to use them in spite of all these rather serious issues.
In short, I call bullshit.
I saw people get assaulted. I can't let that slide.
Quite simply, I'm hoping that this will actually cause the cons that use the Dorsai to say 'Hey, shape up, and this list of your people are no longer welcome to work ________ con', and hopefully encourage the Dorsai to reflect on what is going on with themselves and fix it.
if someone doesn't wanna deal with the dorsai, they're likely gonna avoid all cons involved with the organization.
Assholes are going to be assholes whether confronted or not. I was there on vacation, getting away from stress, enjoying myself. I can't help but wonder if the situation could have been defused by simply moving 5 feet to the left. "Renegade" can go on his way sure in his own masculinity or whatever while I roll my eyes at his childishness, and I can go back to enjoying my vacation. I guess I just don't understand taking a stand over something like this. Were you in the right? Probably, but now you're angry and have a real reason to take a stand, and the only result of this is to sour people's impression of a great con and cause a bunch of would-be attendees to skip it.
The whole thing is just unfortunate. :/
Crimson was following people to their rooms and harassing them to provide legal ID or other forms of identification.
There's a lot of other issues. Read all the comments in this post. I'm not the only one, and other people are coming out.
Zero, Cray, Doral, Jack, Gavin (FF Reg Director), Silver (FF Reg), Lucien (FF Reg) and a bunch of others all had the same issues, and varying other experiences. This isn't just my experience. It's a lot of people's experiences.
It's not just me. It's a LOT of people. I'm just finally coming out to say enough is enough. We've been reporting it and making these issues known for 4 years. After the 5th, I'm tired of hoping somebody will stop this.
My various run-ins with the Dorsai and my lack of run-ins with every single other convention's security force has me wondering two things:
1. What the hell do a bunch of non-furry men and women in their 50's and 60's have to do with running security at a furry convention?
2. What kind of convention head in their right mind, hires on a paramilitary force from outside the fandom to push around their attendees?
I think the only thing the Dorsai really have going for them is that they make the security over at ### seem downright friendly. (Yeah, scratch that. I don't want to say who, in case I get pro-actively banned or some shit. These conventions are getting fucked up.)
I actually got into a semi-fight with him. He put his hands on me, basically shoved me, I knocked into someone else and I have an actual psychosis that comes up when I am struck, shoved, or threatened. I kind of go instinct-mode. I basically attacked him, he threatened to call the cops, me and some friends who witnessed it along with others basically corroborated my story and since I was reacting I didn't get in trouble but there was a big stink over it all the same. Vowed after that that if they remained as the security force I would not be returning. Instead, they've been bringing MORE members of Dorsai. And now they're at FurFest? Fuck that shitpistol.
So my only conclusion is that he very well KNOWS what is up and is keeping his mouth shut and deleting every shout mentioning this weekends issues.
I am disappointed in this development and am avoiding FurFright until this has been handled in a transparent and reasonable way.
Patience is a virtue. Frankly if I got home from running a con and saw a shitstorm, I might default to a "deal with it later" mentality as well.
As I likely mentioned elsewhere, Belic has always struck me as being very reasonable and very open to hearing substantive criticisms. I think it's both reasonable and courteous to give the FF staff some time to deal with post-con and post-Sandy fallout before anyone accuses them of ignoring the problem...especially if our primary concern really is finding a constructive way to resolve the problem.
If the shouts hadn't vanished I wouldn't feel as wary about it
I mean, presumably, in the end we actually are all on the same side here...most of us, anyway.
Deleting the shouts may not have been the most prudent course of action, but, Mr. Cynic notes that Belic would hardly be the first or last fur to engage in imprudent activity, and given how he must be feeling right now, a lapse wouldn't be entirely hard to understand.
But again...let's give them some time to see how and whether they respond before we draw conclusions.
Frankly from what I have been reading from some recent research, teh Dorsai does not seem to balanced and organized. One thing that has gotten to me most of all that I've read from Steve Simmons himself is this:
We want to see a level head, especially in a crisis. Much of our work is stressful, and we want folks who don't faint at the sight of blood, who don't respond to threats with threats, who understand that politeness and calmness defuses even the most stressful encounters. As we often say before cons, "Get out there and nice them to death."
If you are interested in authority and like to order people around, you're not for us. On the other hand, you'd better be able to do that when and as needed.
Doesn't seem very true in all the cases I've sen lately as of now.
No, you were banned because you were told to move away from the door, and you refused.
Sounds like you were argumentative. What would I have done? I would have moved away from the door. What would a reasonable person have done? Moved away from the door. What did you do? Refuse and then get argumentative.
Apparently, in Connecticut, that's illegal (I didn't know this!).
Heh.
Takes 1 or a few bad apples to spoil teh bunch. Get rid of those bad apples and things will look good again.
You may have been in your right. But then, you didn't know it was apparently against the law to be next to the door, either. So, we have the DI controlling things. We assume, being in a position of authority, that they know more than we con-goers. I'll accept that. I think the vast majority of people do. You had the whole con to stand. Being argumentative was silly.
And also, it's NOT against the law to be next to a door in Connecticut. That was a sarcastic remark in my post. I was legitimately doing nothing wrong.
B) He wasn't actually in front of or all that close to the door. He was off to the side and very much out of the way.Any reasonable security officer would've left him well alone.
And before you say that I have no way of knowing what happened? I was not three feet away when this event occurred. I witnessed it myself. And as someone with six year experience in the field of security and emergency response (fully licensed at that, unlike these guys) -- I was absolutely embarrassed by their behavior this weekend. Them being the Dorsai, not Neer.
Since its true that every state and region has their own laws, and since its also true we con-goers aren't aware of every law and code violation, then if an authority figure says don't do that, then its probably safe to assume you shouldn't do that. Standing there and arguing about it, is silly.
That's why it was such a bullshit thing for them to go on about.
Especially given the fact that you focus on one person (who you clearly don't like, by the way) while ignoring all the others in this thread and other places who are pointing out stories of their own that happened to them this and past years.
It isn't so much he didn't know but that he didn't have to be an asshole about telling him.
A little kindness goes along way.
As far as the law, it could be considered loitering and barring access to the doorway. I asked my boyfriend about this and we will give me the link to the law later. So yes the guy was technically in the wrong but security didn't have to act like an asshat.
Merely pointing that out but yeah I'm sorry this happened to y'all
Dragoneer? It's his post I'm addressing. And I don't dislike Dragoneer at all. While it's arguably important to take in the totality of occurrences to help color the nature of something, one needs to address each incident individually; otherwise, the waters turn muddy fast.
I could only imagine them grabbing somebody, and hitting some wound they have. Then bam! Medical lawsuit. All it takes is /one/ person. It's a reason you never lay your hands on an attendee.
I chair a con up here in Canada and reading this and seeing the fallout much less attending FurFright, AC, MFF, and FCN where the Dorsai are the hired security is not a good thing.
I will state firmly as a chairbear and as joe furry i love attending many furcons and working with them as everything from the everfun *doorguard* to art show staff and all in between but nothing is as stressladen and in your face as *security*. I feel sorry this has exploded at FF which is and still will be a good con to attend. Sadly seems like the Dorsai are suffering con burnout if they are getting this sort of behavior going on and refusing to fix it, which happens even more so in *special invite only* organizations.
To concede the point sometimes security does have bad days, we all do, but if this is true what is being reported then yes someone needs to be removed, or a few folks, from the DI and a whole new training program happen. If I ever laid hands on a congoer unless it was to save them from harm or get them to help I would expect to be sued and tattooed.
I hope this can be resolved in a manner that will not cause anymore harm to the fandom but it looks like this might become a semi witch hunt and we all know how those usually go :/.
Btw Dragoneer, come up here to Furnal Equinox in march ;). If you going to WTF as well come on by and say hi.
Gaia bless to one and all
Pakesh_De
Chaircritter for Furnal Equinox
This year's theme is Furries in Uniform... I was thinking of going as a DI!
...8D
That gave me a good laugh. =D
FE has/had similar issues... Ask Potoroo about the time he was accosted while DJ'ing a dance. In the middle of his set a security drone demanded to see his badge! Potoroo explained who he was and what he was doing, as if it weren't obvious, and also that he forgot his badge in his room. The drone had no sympathy and kept insisting that he produce his badge on the spot. Wow!
I don't recall if it was the same drone or not but one was also going around the dance floor with a flashlight stopping the dancers and examining their badges.
Definitely not a way to encourage attendees to come back again...
Hopefully though the same can be done for the DI, they mean well and got some great folks but all it takes is one or two bad apples and your rep is in the tank for years to come :/.
Gaia bless
Pakesh_De
ChairCritter for Furnal Equinox
I came back from FurFright on a rather positive feeling regarding the furry fandom, and I have sworn to myself that I'm not going to let this damage that feeling.
Your accusations may or may not be justified, but it's very disappointing to me (which, I realize, probably means almost nothing to you) that you couldn't find it within yourself to take a less confrontational approach to attempting to find a resolution to your concerns.
I would urge everyone reading this to at least give FurFright a chance. My experiences with the con staff and the convention itself have been nothing but positive.
I'm not sure if you read my post, but this was not merely about me. I saw attendees shoved, others denied entry into the hotel (which they paid for), some stalked and followed to their rooms for failing to provide ID or other verification, being called liars, false threats of attacks (see Cray's post) or the debacle with the fire evacuation (Silver's report).
Again, I've been going to Furfright since 2005, and I've been to every one since but '07. I love Furfright, I have nothing against the con staff, not the convention. What happened this weekend with the security is another matter. I want the con to improve, but if after five years of "Hey, this is getting bad!" and "Hey, it's getting worse!" go nowhere, I see no other option.
I'd rather take the reputational hit and hope something good comes out of it than ever have to see con security assault an attendee.
FWIW, I'd be happy to discuss this in a real-time format if you would be wiling and able to do so...for this type of discussion i tend to find that type of interaction works better for me, and I'll admit that if I'm going to have this level of debate with someone I'd prefer for that person not to be a total stranger.
You have to understand that what I'm seeing as immediate consequences of the actions you've undertaken is people stating they will never attend FurFright, and a petition to discontinue the use of the DI. It leaves a very bad taste in my mouth that the petition demands an action rather than asking for an investigation of any sort, and that it would essentially throw away any well-meaning members of the DI along with the ones who may actually bear responsibility for your experiences. There is also no discussion of alternatives to using the DI. In short, it comes across with a sense of "complaining about the weather but not doing anything about it"...no Sandy-related puns intended. Some of the posted notes with regards to the petition also suggest that the posters have little interest in a constructive approach to the situation.
I'll admit I'm biased. I've had a great time at FF every year, I've talked with Belic about FF on a number of occasions, and after experiences at AC came perilously close to souring me on the notion of cons altogether, FF restored my interest in attending them (granted to let one con dissuade one from attending others may be questionable to begin with, but I think we can both agree it would be a somewhat understandable reaction). I very, very much want to see FurFright continue, and it is -very- upsetting to see people swearing off it on the word of a handful of people. I'm not going to debate whether or not this was a reaction you intended, but it is a consequence of the actions you chose to undertake...you are, on some level, responsible, whether or not you intended for it to occur. I'm trying not to hold that against you.
If the con staff and the Dorsai are disregarding your reports...and I'd much rather believe you're lying, frankly...I would have suggested bringing them up in an open forum where your reports could not be ignored...but not like this, and not like that petition. I know AC at least previously had a Q&A forum towards the end of the convention, and while I haven't seen such at FF, that doesn't preclude that one could take place, especially for concerns as serious as the ones you raise. You state that you've brought up these concerns but "nothing has happened"...would you object to, for instance, my asking Belic if he's aware of the situation? In a worst-case scenario I'm the one getting screwed over at that point, right?
I would ask that you, and everyone reading this, give the con staff some time to acknowledge and respond to the most recent concerns. As I'm sure you're all aware the con -just- ended, and there's an ongoing natural disaster. I think they should at least be afforded the courtesy of our patience.
My problem with these reports is that they're all coming through verbal, non-documented accounts. Regardless of the reasons, the fact is that documentation would go a long way towards something being done. I work in Application Support, and as I've had to tell people on numerous occasions, "if you can't document it and we can't reproduce it, we have no proof that it happened". Yes, it sucks to be told that, but if this is something that really is considered a genuine problem, then people need to do the legwork...or paperwork. If you feel staff are ignoring your concerns, back them up. Or, to put it in an admittedly not-entirely-tactful way, and perhaps a touch ironically, "be professional".
I really wish you'd said some of what you just said to me in your original post, and that your tone had come across more as an effort to open a dialogue and see your concerns addressed in a minimally disruptive manner rather than, and I apologize for this lowest common denominator phrasing, "Do what I want you to do or else you suck!"
I often -do- suck at communicating with people I'm not familiar with, and I'm not a fan of typing of these kinds of large multi-point messages (especially the day I've returned from a con, heh), so I'll reiterate my offer to discuss this in real-time or in any other social medium you'd be comfortable with that I can reasonably access. I think it's highly probable that everything you've discussed did in fact occur , and it's entirely possible that some VIP's have, regrettably, chosen to disregard your concerns...but my biggest concern is that FF is a con that I love and don't want to see harmed, and if it's at all possible I'd much rather, with regards to the DI, see the bad branches pruned than chop down the entire tree. And as i said, I think it's very regrettable that the petition opted to be confrontational rather than an effort to open a dialogue.
Furfright is my favorite con. Hands down. But I have serious issues with threatening to be arrested, having security barge into my room when the door's cracked open (uninvited, unannounced) and all the other issues. Multiple Furfright staffers (past and present) have come out to support my issues, and even bring their own to light.
And we are waiting to hear what the convention staff have to say before moving forward. I know they've been through a lot.
Thank you again for your thoughtful tone and willingness to consider my position on this matter.
I'm glad to hear that you weren't actively attempting to drive people away from FF. Depending on how you feel about it, people might benefit from hearing some of the thoughts you've just expressed to me rather than the ones at the top of this thread). I think you may have come across a bit more hard-line than you intended.
If I was in your situation I doubt I'd feel like endorsing the con either, though I've had shitty cons before and I make a serious (sometimes too serious, I think) effort to distinguish between my experiences at a con and the con itself. That said, most of the time if I'm having a shitty con it's due to drama-llamas, not con security.
I'm glad to hear that you're willing to give the con staff some time to regain their equilibrium and give the matter the consideration it merits before taking any firm stand. I wish others were keeping as open a mind.
While I would be most gratified if you'd edit your post or follow it up with some of the sentiments you've expressed here, I fully understand if you're not invested enough or simply aren't inclined to do so.
I hope that a year from now you'll be able and willing to attend FurFright without the reservations you're currently feeling. As before, I'm happy to talk about this more if you would like to do so.
Something like this goes down? Film it.
It's hard to believe that no one has caught any of this on camera before.
I'm not saying it hasn't happened, it's just much easier to see and hear it for myself.
If something happens in the span of 10-15 seconds it's not always fast enough to get a camera out once you go "Oh my god, I can't believe that happened."
But I mean these guys have been at cons since the early 90s.
Someone has bound to had a camera out for a completely different reason and just happen to catch when one of them lost their cool at some point.
Then we can point to it and say "See, you guys are kind of alright. We just need less of this. In fact, we don't need this at all."
Eventually someone is going to capture something like this, and it will be the end.
However, I find it terrifying that the fire alarm went off and the security didn't know what to do. People might say "Well it's not their place to! They're just security!" Well if you rent out the entire building (which people are saying has been done) and you take charge of the hotel-- it is YOUR responsibility to ensure people get evacuated safely. I've worked as a Manager at a hotel and when the fire alarm went off it was MY JOB to make sure everyone got out safely. When you overtake the hotel and claim to be a manager, or make the actual hotel staff act as ghosts and take responsibility over the occupants it's your place to make sure you have a fire evacuation plan.
I mean, hell, we do this for model horse shows (putting a dinky plastic horse on a table for a ribbon) we make sure we have an evac plan at both the show hall and the sponsored hotel. If we do it for our fanbase... a bunch of old bitties... you'd think that Furry Con Security would definitely do it considering the more "boisterous" fan following Furries have.
All this just makes me glad I decided to pursue other hobbies.
I was seriously livid at that.
I'm sure that their "evac plan" went against what was posted on the backs of the doors at the hotel as well. But it also sounds like many of them were disinterested in the fire alarm sounding and only a few "acted" by herding people into an unsafe area. The least they can do is familiarize themselves with the hotel's evac plan. That's what we do... and my shows are small potatoes compared to the furry conventions.
As the dust settles I'm sure that the host of the convention will make an announcement. If we have something silly/small go wrong at a show (like, someone claiming sabotage) we don't mention it for about 2 weeks after we've gathered sufficient evidence (if there was any to be found) -- keep your watchers posted if the host says anything about the event. I'm sure he'll say something
I do plan on going again next year, though. I will definitely keep my eye out for incidents in the future.
Event staff of any sort is not supposed to physically move someone. Assault, being too rough, whatever you want to call it, that should not have happened.
Someone mentioned "the con own the hotel". This all depends on the Furfright hotel contract and what that hotel / contract define as convention space. A convention can never own a guest room that was paid for by a guest, however, since that space is leased to you (and even that depends on the hotel and "do not disturb" sign policies). By extension, Dorsai or any event staff should not be going into a private guest room unless invited by a hotel guest.
And the number one point : If you have a problem with convention security, be it Dorsai or in-house, the best thing to do is go to someone on senior staff for that convention. Preferably whoever the Dorsai report to (be it a head of security, head of Ops, or someone else generally in charge). Complaining to a gopher or low level staff won't really do anything, and posting on FA really won't do anything. In this case, if you really had problems, FF staff should be the ones hearing about it. If they don't change anything / don't feel there's anything wrong, then don't go to their con. Conventions are not by the people for the people, but are instead organized by a handful of people who sacrifice a lot of time (and sometimes money) to get them going. One cannot demand they make a change, but most good staffs will air complaints and concerns. Just keep in mind that most con staff are dead tired the week after a con and you won't hear back instantly.
(By the way, if anyone has ever had trouble with Dorsai at FCN, I want to hear about it. Not in a comment, but in a private note. I take complaints seriously.)
For the convention staff to say "there's nothing we can do" is a little strange to me. I say this not having attended Furfright and having no insight on how they're run, but I would think that as the people who hired the Dorsai, there's definitely "something they can do," whether it be to ask certain Dorsai to come / not come, talk to them about the con's policies, or if things are as bad as this thread indicates, warn them / remove them.
That stuff is messed up on so many levels :(
After I was finished I came back and was promptly stopped. The same guy, an older man probably in his 50s? with greyish hair...he stopped me and held his hand up. Asked for my badge and said I could not enter unless I had a fursuit. I said..you just saw me with my fursuit. It's right there, and pointed to where my friend was sitting with the parts of it. He heckled me a bit, had my friend come to me to bring it to me, and the head. And told me not to come back without a suit unless I was a handler with a suiter by my side.
I felt so embarrassed, I have never been treated in such a fashion. >.< I am sorry to hear these people frequent other cons as well...I don't get it. I am sure most of them try their best to keep cons a safe and fun place, but this was ridiculous and I have heard bad stories about them as well...
Draconis
Furry Drama Show Director Fangcon, Furry Fiesta, F3. Oklacon, RCFM, Wild Nights
Wild Nights Event Director
RCFM Board Member
Doing stuff for Fangcon now
by the time you can get your phone out, unlocked, and recording, the situation's already ended.
I should thank you for making this journal also. I hadn't really thought anything of our incident at Fur Fright, since we were able to get around it, but when you really stop and think about it, it's entirely unacceptable.
I'd like to believe that the convention staff was simply unaware of what was happening until it was happening, and that they would agree something needs to be done. And anything short of a public forum for people to openly discuss this, will be an insult to the convention attendees that love and respect the convention. I really hope that this incident will make things right.
I really hope I get the opportunity to express my feelings to Belic Bear and the convention staff in a more direct manner. I really like Fur Fright, and I'm willing to spill my emotions to keep it that way.
* But then I do tend to avoid going to places infected with Dorsai disease.
This is crazy.
It's got to stop.
Otherwise it will be bad for business.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGdjn3ID37U
In like a few seconds, you'll see a picture of you and what seems to be a large man in a white shirt. The way he is posed seems like he was screaming at you on there as this person took the photo. Can you clarify please?
http://www.reddit.com/r/furry/comme.....m0tw?context=3
If so, I can change my RES tag from "Might be Dragoneer" to "Is actually Dragoneer."
Lots of folks give their all, and I mean -seriously work their tails off- to make furfright awesome. Staff, volunteer staff, panelists, etc. I worked something like 20 hours this weekend doing a bunch of different shit. It's a real pain in the ass to have all our hard work and sacrificed hours(to ensure everyone has a great time) overshadowed by dorsai acting like entittled jerks. Even some of the staff wanted to put a petition together about dorsai on friday, because they were being HUGE d-bags this year. I know like, 4 people who work dorsai who would never harass anyone and who just want to do the same- ensure a safe and enjoyable time for all- the fact that 1-2 guys managed to ruin the time for so many people and inflict so many negative experiences is just incredibly insulting to the staff and volunteers. Like they must've been in full on asshole mode 24/7 to squeeze out that many negative experiences from so many people.
I wrote this journal after having multiple friends give up on the con and leave Sunday morning (Craydrygu, Zerohour3k and Doral) because they were tired of being harassed and treated like criminals by the Dorsai, and outright lied to and bashed.
I know there were about 4 Dorsai involved in all the issues. My personal issues mainly involved Renegade and one other (who I will not mention by name) for blaming me for being the "mastermind" behind the fire alarm. After I was informed I was being viewed as a suspect for it I just threw up my arms. I wanted this Furfright to work. It was meant to be a vacation prior to our wedding, but... it wasn't just bad, but REALLY bad.
Everything convention wise though? It went great, and except for a minor issue involving a panel, I didn't hear any complaints.
I'm hoping there will be a good outcome out of all this when all is said and done. Furfright's a damn good con, but... this was just something else, y'know?
I'm just not sure if I could do that with the Dorsai involved.
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/3973717/
In that
Ziptieing emergency exits... *shakes head*
As I have written further up, the Dorsai thing is a desaster waiting to happen.
I had no plans to attend the bigger cons anyway, mostly due to not dealing well with large groups of people...but this is making me wary of attending other, smaller cons as well, including FCN (local convention...I'm a Michigander after all).
I suppose the best thing one can do before a Dorsai-staffed con is read up on the laws of the area you will be in, know your rights under said laws, and make certain to report any incidents to con staff as well as the local police/constables.
alas furry trolls
http://rdk.pixel-pagoda.com/IHATEFU.....0/rage1310.htm
It's humorous, though not near the way it went down.
The trouble is now if they are gone, whom does security now?. And yes I am not condoning any incidents that have happened but let us say we have removed the Dorsai from con security.
Now we have 2 choices left, and they are either we draft/find folks to do con security which we all know is a *fun job* and then gets right back into the real issues raised of untrained and unregistered folks *telling us what to do*
The second of course is we hire private security, which of course is NOT cheap. I have priced out what just a few bodies would cost for a con of our size and the impact to the bottom line is not at all pretty. And this is for a smallish con with limited space. Add in the nightmare of a massive spread like AC has and I have to say the cost would be a pretty brutal price increase to all of our con admission fees as non profit cons simply do not have that kind of loose cash laying around. If they do they got other expenses that will eat what they got before they can get to the price for security.
And then again we have now non furs doing security, and from what I am seeing we do not like being told what to do, being treated rudely, and being restricted on access to the convention. Private security would be far less tolerant of the fandoms special characteristics so if we want to have trained and skilled security we have to open our-self up to either furs with minimal training to do the work, or expensive and trained nonfurs to do the work.
Something to think on folks..this is not a topic that is easily covered but we have to be careful we do not toss the baby out with the bathwater. And yes i know I will get some flack for commenting on this but I simply had to step in and say what had to be said, and I hope folks accept it in the spirit it was given
Gaia bless
Pakesh_De
ChairCritter for Furnal Equinox
Yes, they have to check badges at the entrance to con areas. That's just a given. Yes, they often have to ask people to not block a hallway or door - but they aren't supposed to TELL you to. It's a rarity that someone would continue blocking a door or hall when asked (politely) to let people through, but in a case like that they're only supposed to inform hotel security (or police) and/or remove their badge. Badge removal means that con staff can legally ask hotel security (and/or police) to remove a trespasser from private (rented) space.
They're all touchy subjects, but keep in mind also that this would be an extreme example. In ten years of running RCFM we have had only ONE instance of a person who was this belligerent - and that person was not a registered member and did not have a badge in the first place. Which I think is why this subject of some members of the DI being so pushy really gets to some people replying here, especially those who have been con staff before.
As for the other subject, that of running Security internally - my opinion is that this is vastly preferable to asking an outside group to do the same. I read the (brief) description on the DI website of what they ask from a con, which is pretty much transportation costs and/or hotel rooms. Still, it IS a cost - so it's something you're paying for.
Running it internally requires people who are willing to do the job, which require those of us on the Board to spend time recruiting good people. It's an effort, but in the end it's worth doing. They have a page of rules to follow, what to do and not do - but it's not so difficult that the average person couldn't do it.
Primary rule, of course, is to be polite and only ASK people to do things. Never tell them. Never touch them, or try to force them to do something. Call the 'real' authorities if and when there's ever an actual problem. Something that some members of the DI have apparently forgotten...
Still sounds like security overreacted badly and took things too far into the realms of unreasonableness. BUT security are there for safety reasons, and blankly saying "No." to them is only going to cause an issue - you should have known this.
I feel the same way about other cons too - This years EF was plagued by stories of heavy handed security. But at the end of the day, you agree to go to cons under the proviso you obey their staff members, no question about that.