FA+
Shop
AUP Update 2: Commission Notices & Auctions
12 years ago
🏳️🌈💖Enjoy the site? Please consider supporting us via the links below!💖🏳️🌈
⭐ FA+ ⭐ SHOP ⭐ KO-FI ⭐
Journal Start
We're posting a second journal as we have made some additional revisions given user feedback. As we have more significant clarification, we wanted to make sure those changes could be highlighted.
Permitted in your Gallery
* Price guides may be posted but are limited to one submission per type of art (e.g. one for visual arts, one for fursuiting) at any given time.
* Submissions used to sell art (e.g. commission auctions, adoptables, YCH) may be uploaded but are limited to one submission per account at any given time. Advertisements posted must be new and original submissions. Reposting of the same item is not permitted. Previously sold items (such as original characters or designs) may be left in a user's gallery as art.
Permitted in Scraps
* Advertisements (e.g. commission auctions, adoptables, YCH) which exceed the limits above may be uploaded.What this change does (over previous rules) is this:
* Artists get far more freedom to upload to the main gallery, while still being limited so as to prevent spam. This will help give them exposure, but limit flooding on the main page. The limit of one does not apply to streaming notices, which can still be posted to. It is SOLELY to items that are "for sale" on the site.
* Artists can still upload additional auctions/adotpables/YCHs to scraps. The previous update was only intended to limit them to the main gallery to no more than one at a time. This will allow you to sell your your watchers, or link to them.
* Artists can post multiple price guides for each kind of art they do (e.g. fursuit building, visual arts).
Note: A future update will give people an option to post sellable items to "For Sale", and give them he ability to have their work searched through the Browse and Front Page options.
Hopefully that helps clear things up a bit.
Permitted in your Gallery
* Price guides may be posted but are limited to one submission per type of art (e.g. one for visual arts, one for fursuiting) at any given time.
* Submissions used to sell art (e.g. commission auctions, adoptables, YCH) may be uploaded but are limited to one submission per account at any given time. Advertisements posted must be new and original submissions. Reposting of the same item is not permitted. Previously sold items (such as original characters or designs) may be left in a user's gallery as art.
Permitted in Scraps
* Advertisements (e.g. commission auctions, adoptables, YCH) which exceed the limits above may be uploaded.What this change does (over previous rules) is this:
* Artists get far more freedom to upload to the main gallery, while still being limited so as to prevent spam. This will help give them exposure, but limit flooding on the main page. The limit of one does not apply to streaming notices, which can still be posted to. It is SOLELY to items that are "for sale" on the site.
* Artists can still upload additional auctions/adotpables/YCHs to scraps. The previous update was only intended to limit them to the main gallery to no more than one at a time. This will allow you to sell your your watchers, or link to them.
* Artists can post multiple price guides for each kind of art they do (e.g. fursuit building, visual arts).
Note: A future update will give people an option to post sellable items to "For Sale", and give them he ability to have their work searched through the Browse and Front Page options.
Hopefully that helps clear things up a bit.
I still see dirty Second Life and cub images with some frequency.
how long have you been here, cupcake?
Cub porn however, is a different story.
Have you got any examples? Send me a note if you do.
:U
Ceeb reports them, or so we have been told, so they can be dealt with. They're still not being dealt with. If we all just waited on the administration to do something about it, it would never get done. (See Also: Summer Update 2011) This is where complaints start rolling in.
This is similar to "Forbidden =/= The End of It", which happens to be the post he was replying to - Making it highly relevant to the situation at hand.
In short, unless Ceeb says otherwise, your point is not relevant to the comment made.
You, whoever, decided to drag the matter out for no sufficient reason.
Hopefully, you and your buddy are done boohooing about another's boohooing at this point.
And for the record, *I* did not get him involved. He jumped in by his own choice.
Devious-Bane, Ceeb complained about the presence of certain content and made mention of absolutely NO other issues. Your points are irrelevant no matter HOW you try to justify them.
Jen, you really need to learn when to stop arguing with people like this, even if you are right. At best you're wasting time, at worst you're feeding trolls.
Post an advertisement to your gallery
Move it to your scraps
Post a new one to your main gallery
Move it to your scraps
Still getting the spam on the front page, while still following the "just one, k guys?" rules.
Can we focus on something more important than a little bit of spam?
It's like someone who called our admirer and collectineer of avatars adressed ourteam in SL to make custom avatar.. and being annoyed that we ask for 200$ instead of 3$ which regular avatar cost.
At first glance, the one ad at a time restriction did seem excessive, but seeing as how Scraps are unaffected, it's really not as bad as it seems. Anything that's in Scraps doesn't appear on the front page, but as has been pointed out before, there are people who don't even bother looking at it, and I'm one of them. The only reason I do is to track a submission. It's usually on the front page for all of a minute, five at the most, and in that time collects maybe a dozen views.
You know who gets to see Scraps? Watchers. The people who have made a conscious decision to follow your work. The people you generally need to cultivate to have any kind of commercial success on FA. The ones who will fave your work to spread the word to other people. These people you can still spam to your heart's content, or until they get sick of seeing it. So I would venture that the effect on business will be minimal at best, and if it improves the viewing experience for potential customers, might even improve things.
Everyone has their own gallery, no one has any right to say what gets posted in it.
The admins are saying it will cut down SITE SPAM and aren't targeting the problem, they're targeting everything so they don't have to try, all they do is move/delete and be done with it. EVEN IF it's two totally different pieces of artwork, you can't have it if your selling it. which isn't fair to the users looking for new art, that they could find actually amazing, but since they're both advertising two different styles of illistrations, they won't catch it.
Why the fuck limit it to one? So they don't have to deal and can just click, see and move everything into a scrap folder, which wont cut down and spam to any user. THEY'D STILL GET NOTIFICATIONS
which leads them to unwatching them any fucking way.
So...whats the point to this?
People raised shit about pony art too, but it didn't turn into shit like this, at least people unwatched and moved on, not raise a shit throwing party about it at the admins until they had to think at all.
As appealling as the Howard Roark defense may be, let's not forget that the person who actually owns the site, and who is allowing us to use it, you can also argue that he has every right to use his property as he sees fit, and it's not like there's not already all manner of restrictions about what we can put here.
it's that a handful don't even understand what they're saying because of how vague they are in wording it
Even the admin replying doesn't know a whole lot of anything about it.
It's the fact this isn't a full formed thought.
That this has happened many times and they've done nothing until now to appease people and only on things that sell.
if it was really a thing on spam, this wouldn't be the proper action to take at all.
Send it to the moon.
Thank you! xD
You post the ad, and when it slides off of the front page, you move it to your scraps and post another one, which sits on the front page again. Wash, rinse, repeat.
You're still following the rules, while still getting your ad on the front page for the most amount of time possible.
Plus if I'm wrong and it Did work, you'd be suspended anyways, so.. It still works.
Idk, I think it's a good idea.
Amen
That's actually a really good idea
Or just trolling.
"Here's something I did last week (blah blah blah) and that's why the hippo is wearing a cowboy hat. Also, the auction mentioned earlier is still live here (link)"?
Again, any submission. Meaning image and description.
One thing for sale at a time in the gallery, rest go to submissions.
Mentioning something you already have posted is advertising.
It's all too foggy, and they aren't sharing where the line is really drawn.
What i think.
http://www.slicksurface.com/blog/20.....dos-attack.png
Whats ACTUALLY happening.
http://dailypicksandflicks.com/wp-c.....-lab-flood.jpg
Better solution to your problem. Add a black list.
I am aware that FA isnt at the capacity of other sites such as google (god forbid i compare ANY personally funded website to google) but for something thats appears to be hosted in a datacenter, it would be nice if it preformed as such.
TLDR: FA looks to have everything needed to preform under a load with no interruption, even with spam. It would be nice if it actually did.
If I tunneled properly, I could have my IP looking like it's coming from somewhere in Europe, and have a script I wrote a while ago running that uses one (or more) browsers on my computer creating accounts on a website continually, at a rate of about a hundred accounts per minute (taking into account my not-so-good bandwidth), and then I'd just need to write a script that has each account frequently submit a pre-determined image file of some sort, spamming it into the system until that account gets banned, but with each account doing that, it'd take forever for them to realize what's truly going on and attempt to block my IP, only for my IP to tunnel to another location if I found out the IP was banned and if I actually wanted to do something like this.
That said, I'm not that smart. If I could do that, so could a lot of people.
And if there is an artist out there that does nothing but spam ads and stream notices, I'd just unwatch them. I don't see anyone doing that to an unreasonable extent, from what I see. It seems like people are saying it's this big problem or inconvenience, I am trying to comprehend how it could possibly be anything more than slightly annoying.
It's like... wow. Cool. Nice.
Let's go ban some people for trying to like, make a business and be legitimate.
And in all honesty? User-page banner notifications and explicit pricing guideline sections. Then add a "For Sale" section. Done. Problem solved.
Let's add workload to the new admins by the whineybabies reporting bullshit instead of the actual trolls.
as an artist, i make money on fa. as much as i don't like it, i'm probs not going to leave unless this rule digs into my profits- it likely won't because i don't advertise my stuff all that much, except for selling designs- it's a matter of what's going to get me by, but i still feel for a lot of people affected by this.
As far as I know, the YCH auction idea is rather new. I dont remember seeing ANYTHING about this fad even a few years ago. The sites been around longer and artists have been successful alot longer before that. I'm sure things will work out in the end, even if people have to work around a little bit. :)
they are new, but still- if people don't like it, they should just delete it. if it's that much of an issue for someone to just DELETE the notifications, i really have no hope for anyone anymore. it's lazy. take care of the problem yourself if it bothers you, unwatch the annoying artist, but don't try and get the moderation into their business and dictate what they can and can't advertise, for how long, etc. it's rude, and right now it seems sorely focused on FOR PROFIT, so it seems that they just want to force people to use adspace, as much as they're denying it- i have not seen one mention of advertising something that is FREE.
i've seen so many journals where people are asking if they can get invites to weasyl after this, it's really just not going to be good for fa in the long run, artists are going to move when they can no longer make the profits they could.
also, this promised UI with the for sale feature.. that'll be the day! if it happens i will be legit shocked- but i really don't expect anything to happen at all. just another: IT'S COMING SOMETIME!! and never does.
also, why try to advertise where you're not sure if people will look at your work, when you have fa when you can just advertise and you know eventually someone is going to see it, because it's a community interested in whatever the artist is doing? it technically IS a method of getting your name out there, it may not be 100% professional slapping a billboard image on a highway, but it's still advertisement and exposure nonetheless, how people advertise shouldn't be dictated because people are too damn lazy to click on that helpful NUKE button.
as for fa's storage, the site is going to continue to get uploads anyway, i don't see why it would matter if its these advertisements that eventually are deleted, because they'll either be outdated or no longer needed- a YCH sketch will be replaced with the newer one, older adoptables are usually scrapped and deleted, journals are usually deleted too and reposted, it's a matter of temporarily using up that space??
i'm just also confused as to why, now in 2013, it's an issue, when adoptables and auctions have been taking place for much longer and the only problems that were addressed were the streaming notifications, and that rule was later dropped because i'm guessing it couldn't be policed/enforced enough? so i don't even.
And if you do a gift pic for a famous/popular person and they fav it, or even repost it with a link to your stuff, you can get ALOT of exposure that way while making someone else's day better. The best business is the one with heart, not the one that just cranks out easy-to-make commercials to saturate the market. Least imo.
I don't see how it's unprofessional. I do YCH all the time an the customers I've worked with said I've been very easy, and good to work with. Or are you talking about the YCH itself bein sloppy? If it's the latter then that's kind of an oxymoron seeing as how YCH pictures are works in progress waiting to be finished after the artist has been paid. Another benefit to YCH pictures is that it may offer quicker, and larger sums of money for the artist. Meaning less work for them on terms of trying to make ends meet by doing several pictures per month, when they can only do a few to make ends meet. That's less muscle and wrist strain on the artist's drawing hand, which helps in the long run for them as well.
To me, it just feels like admins are caving and catering to people that bitch and moan about people advertising when they could solve their own dilemma themselves by either:
Unwatching the artist
Delete offending images in their inbox.
Artists are part of the community, too. I don't see why we have to be penalized over some asinine nonsense that people could solve the problem themselves, but choose to get the staff involved; using up what limited man power FA has already on trivial plop like this, instead of working on giving this site a MUCH NEEDED UPGRADE.
People get pretty nasty with YCH auctions if they don't win, or see another bidder win with a large bid, then they bash the artist and the bidder. A lot of people condone this behavior, and I personally find that disgusting. No one should have to tolerate that kind of harassment just because the wrist is selling their art in a different manner, or someone is bidding a large amount of money that's not even theirs.
I remember last year admins tried to restrict streaming posts because people were bitching about those, too. Again, they were fucking over artists that rely on stream commissions as a source of income; because some schmo gets their feefees rustled because they don't like seeing advertisements in their inbox. Again, a
solution easily rectified by deletin submission or unwatching the artist.
I fucking hate typing on my iPhone.
Again, if they would have a system where YCH/Sales/whatever would have a check-box during submission that could be filtered out of the inbox, I would have absolutely NO footing to stand against them. I just hate having 60+ YCH posts in my inbox every damn day. N I'd hate to not be able to watch and enjoy such good artists' work (such as yours) over such a small aggrivation, cause that's kinda why we're all here in the first place: to enjoy art. I dont like commercials and advertisements in my TV, Radio, Internet, Books, or any other media. Sure as hell not going to like them in my inbox on FA. And yes, it's not hard to delete them. It's worked so far and will continue to work. Then again, I never complained about it to the admins or made a big stink about it in the first place due to it's simplicity. I just figured I'd chime my 2 cents in sense the topic was on the table, ya know?
I need coffee....
Also:
"Noone on your commission list? Then do gifts for people. Do trades with people."
Or how about we work on our own projects instead of being told we should to free art in the time we're not being commissioned?
You probably didn't intend for it to sound as it does, but telling people to do free art for exposure is only beneficial for the people who receive the free art. Most of the time, the artists who drew the piece get almost no credit or exposure in the process. :S
"And if you do a gift pic for a famous/popular person and they fav it, or even repost it with a link to your stuff, you can get ALOT of exposure that way"
Unless they already get pelted with gift-art / don't care about it. In which case you've successfully wasted an effort.
I never once said avoid doing stuff for yourself. So far, I've gotten -alot- of credit for the free stuff I've done. And even if I dont get a "omg, I saw this on so-n-so's gallery, I need to buy something now" doesn't mean that they wont keep you in mind later on, or wont have interest sparked in checking out your gallery. For quite a while I was doing free stuff (still do at times when I have time for it) and it generated -alot- of exposure.
It's never wasted effort though. Even if your work isn't rewarded immediately and directly, it doesn't mean you haven't opened doors. Quite often I did free-bees for someone who later on showed it to a friend, who later on knew someone that wanted something with that style, and brought them my way for business. You cant have to many connections, and giving stuff away is a good way to spread your reputation even faster. :)
So: I'm really glad it worked for you, but that doesn't mean it works for everyone. :S
also, that is not entirely true as kayla pointed out. why should we have yo do FREE ART, wasting our time, when we could just advertise our goddamn commissions in the first place??? it makes no sense.
They just recently gained popularity though
So I guess my what I'm trying to say is, What's the big deal? Frankly I just think it all boils down to jealousy of people who are either not artist at all seeing other people spend money on things they themselves may not think is worth it (Like it matters since, you know, it's not their money), resentment of seeing another artist being more successful at something that seems easier than what they hare trying to do, or people who just don't seem to be proactive enough to click on the stupid little box in their latest submissions folder and click delete afterwards or just hit NEXT PAGE on the browse page, as if everything on the Browse page is something that's going to interest them anyway.
Some furries live lives that are destined to be more difficult than it necessarily needs to be because they refuse to acknowledge the concept of "common sense" when it comes to problem solving.
I'm not saying your wrong in your theories as to why people are so butt-hurt over these things, because I have no real definite answer to it. I'm just stating that in my own personal opinion, I think it's missing the key element of the character fitting in the scene. The situation being made for them. It's like seeing an astronaut next to a viking and a robot in the amazon river. It just doesn't fit when slapped together. And what if the person that bought the auction doesn't FIT? Like its a normal proportion pic, yet the winner is some gaint rhino? I'm sure YCH artists know someway around that.
As for being an artist seeing others make money at it with less work, power to ya. Maybe someday I'll change my perspective and do them to if the need arises, just not yet :)
Most artists just draw whatever they want with the character regardless, how is it "less work" for the commissioner to see what they're going to get at the sketch stage and want that? The image doesn't start half done.
To each their own n all that. It's how I feel about it and nothings going to change that *shrug*. Also, I didn't hastily just post a link without meaning, it was there, you just didnt catch it, so please dont just assume such things. Again, I didnt put it in place to have these changes in place cause I could easily just delete the YCH auction ads, as I've been doing sense these things started spamming my inbox by the hundreds.
The system as it currently stands is not ideal for artists, people who want to see art - or even the customers for that matter.
Something I'd love to see as a viewer of art and potential customer would be the ability to search/browse commission information and items for sale. One way to do this could be to reimplement "commission information" in some manner, and have any "for sale" items shown on that page too (not in gallery or scraps until sold). Then make the whole thing searchable/browsable.
Hey, I can dream can't I?
Really though I ignore them in my submissions, check all and uncheck ones I want to look at.
"You're irritating to +watch because you spam so much with reposts"
you know what i meeeeaaaaaaaan
I make my friends clear their damn list because of how many things they keep there and then tell them to watch less people..
Why not limit the problem.. i mean.. advertising for commission is limited now.. how are any of the artists supposed to get work.
Lets be honest, word of mouth on fa doesn't really work unless your a popular artist or draw giant flopping dicks on everything.
(not that there's anything wrong with that, it just gets more attention half the time)
It'll also make it easier for people to browse through sales for things they want to buy.
Should really get that fixed up (or the notification system implemented and eradicate them entirely).
If it's an ad, it's an ad. Rule applies. Not all streaming notifications are ads though.
Better communication means less moderation.
I'm not disagreeing with you that having your inbox flooded is annoying, I'm just saying this rule does not affect that. Users can still post as many ads to scraps as they want.
Can we expect this with the new UI?
worth the weight!
the update is all talk, never going to happen
;)
At the same time, uploading that advert once per 24 hour period could get us that exposure we need to make the money. Just like I posted here:
http://www.furaffinity.net/journal/.....7#cid:31459668 All the points remain valid, save for the comment on implementing something like you've mentioned.
You're wagging your finger in the face of people who upload these things, saying you've given them an alternative or have met in the middle, but you really haven't, at all. Uploading once gives us almost no exposure, I'd say maybe 20-30 people might see it... upload during prime time for more exposure, and it's off the front page faster. Upload later, and people aren't looking, even though it might sit on there for an extra 30-60 seconds.
How in the world is an image popping up once a day for the duration of an auction (usually 5-7 days) flooding? It simply isn't. You keep using that word, but you're ignoring the fact that it's not flooding at all. It's not uploading every minute, half hour, hour.... 24 hours is a MORE than reasonable time frame, and allows us to get the exposure we need.
Again, people aren't reading journals half the time, unless you put something sensationalist in the title (LEAVING FOREVER / Free art / OH MY GOD I HAVE CANCER ) and really, that's not fair to us or the watchers because, hi, crying wolf? Even if they read every journal you post, they aren't going to choose to bid or buy because you mentioned it 10 times.
Again, that update is a great idea... but until it is implemented, it's useless to us. I am not trying to be rude in saying this either, but FA's track record for implementing new features and designs in a reasonable amount of time hasn't been stellar. The search was down for what... a year... or more? You've been touting the beta version and how great it's going to be once it comes into play, since at least this time last year.
All you're doing is punishing the artists for using their submissions to gain exposure for their auctions and business so that watchers, or non artists can chill out. I do agree that several uploads a day of the same image isn't cool. Hell, when I upload mine, it's once a day, and I delete the previous submission first, so that it's only in my gallery once. That's for about 5-7 days while the auction is on, and honestly, it's not like I have an auction every week, most people are the same.
But you know, thanks for kind of ignoring the needs of the artists of the site... :/
THIS IS WHY WE CAN'T HAVE NICE THINGS.
/shot
Ban people for uploading too many photos of themselves.
Ban photographers.
Ban anyone under 18.
Ban people for using apps to access the site on mobile because admins are too lazy to make a mobile app themselves that slows down this badly coded site.
Ban people for using ads to sell stuff.
...what's next?!?
FurAffinity seems to be punishing the users for problems the admins can't handle, or takes away from their bonus checks they get from donation scrilla'.
Agreeing with you Dicelion, and giving your post 4-paws-up!
People do get WARNED for uploading inappropriate or just too many photos of themselves that are non-artistic. This isn't photobucket or facebook. If the uploader ignores the warning then they get suspended.
Now for the big one... and practically the reason behind the post.
Photographers are not banned. Seber is only preaching this because he got his gallery cleared.
Guess what it had? Hundreds of pictures of one puppy "LOL THIS IS CUTE LOOK AT THIS" crap. It wasn't artistic at all. However the admins did warn him and they were willing to allow him to keep some of the photos but he outright refused and proceeded to be a dick about it to everyone and made an anti-FA journal. Of which he blocked many many many people that disagreed with his actions and then deleted it, myself included. He continues to denounce the site with every breath but yet here he is constantly coming back to it.
Users under 18 are not banned. Users under 13 ARE. If you're under 18 you simply are not allowed (by law) to view adult submissions. Users under 13 aren't allowed on most sites of the internet. But like any other age restricted site kids and teens tend to lie because accurate age can't be easily obtained.
Any minor found to be viewing adult submissions simply gets their account locked from viewing the material. If they are caught sidestepping it on an alt account then I'm sure it becomes a ban.
Banning for the mobile app is understood. For one the FA Mobile app is a clunky piece of shit that is less stable than this site. All it does is flood requests to update your notifications like twitter. It's simply pinging the site too much and too often to be acceptable on the sub-par stability. It also crashes a lot and is ridiculously slow. Just stick with a regular browser. You don't need an app for this site.
People don't get banned for advertising. Under the restrictive terms they got warned if they violated something. They are still a tad restricting.
People only get banned by these if they blatantly ignore warnings or haul off and get mouthy at the admin that is just warning them.
There are times where a warning is warrented, but NOT given before whole galleries are cleared. photos have been removed when they don't spam the same picture of a puppy. One instance i recall was a popular artist posting a picture of his car, Only one picture, and it could be considered artistic, but the photo was removed until he drew a picture of his sona standing next to said vehicle. This may not be photobucket or Facebook, but it IS an art site. Photography IS a form of art, and personally I think it's up to the artist what dictates art in regards to what's in the photo. Spamming one image of the same puppy is another instance.
I don't agree with banning for the mobile app. For the simple fact that people use it to be able to access the site when they can't get to a computer. it is okay to warn users if this app is flooding the site and otherwise causing a problem to the server, but outright banning someone for something that could easily be a case of not understanding how a program works, or not knowing about said program's problems is silly. What if there's another app that some unofficial third part develops? Will users be banned for using this new one too, without knowing whether or not it'll affect the site as a whole. It's easy to say 'stick with a regular browser' but what if you're out and about and not able to use the same browser and considering this is a BUSINESS for a lot of people, the want for mobility isn't surprising. What happened to warning someone and letting them know that their access to said site through said program is bothersome? Again, inconsistancy. Warning for others and outright banning for others is inconsistant.
People don't get banned for advertising, unless they either A. continue to do it despite warnings, or B. Fa is yet again inconsistant and doesn't give this user a warning because some mod just doesn't feel they need to because it's stated in the AUP. This rule is also very limiting, and personally i think it's ridiculous to limit artists, especially new ones trying to get their name out there to something as silly as flooding the front page just because a few lazy observers can't be arsed to do something for themselves.
I'd be more inclined to agree with you if i didn't see blatent incosistancy and disregard for the rules by even the admins and having it happen to way too many users to just assume they all were just knotheads blatently disregarding the rules mulitiple times.
THIS ISN'T AN AUCTION SITE
If you want to post an auction, there's multiple sites for it (furbuy, furbid, dragons den or something).
I post my auctions, make a comment on the piece when I upload it that it's up for sale (along with a link), & that's it. I go through an actual auction site where I can leave feedback for non-bidders, & where it's set up to show my art up for sale.
They're not ignoring the needs of artists. They're ignoring the needs of people who are using FA in a way that it's not even CLOSE to being set up for.
This is as logical as yelling at an elephant because it can't climb trees.
(plus, I suck at advertising & don't want to have to spam my watchers if they're not interested in what I'm selling)
I have unwatched 20 people i actually enjoyed seeing actual finished work from because the spam gets obnoxious. I dont mind auctions, i dont mind a hey im open for commissions etc and a reminder once or twice during a week is fine but I think people are complaining because its becoming something thats catching wildfire because many artists are finding they can make often double or triple on these auctions because people get so competitive on bidding. I am glad that its successful as i heavily support artists making better money here (so many are not charging near what they should be able) but I think its just getting to a point its becoming to much for many users who are not interested in them and apparently for the sites liking as well.
I understand both arguments and sides to this and while FA really does need to get more options out for such sales that benefits both and allows such ability to get exposure..spamming the hell out of watchers inboxes who like your work and causing them to unwatch you doesnt help you either. Also like most fads i wouldnt get to centered around these auctions as its likely that they will lose some steam since everyone is doing it now
Do the YCH sketch images (not finished) the sketch really bring that many when its more difficult to define good artists from great? Watches come from finished work, word of mouth, stream advertisements and commission price lists.
Honestly how many wstches do you get from a partially blank sketch ( as in no fscial ezpressions or species defining characteristics)
The admins, just like us, are content providers. The difference is, we charge for our content and bitch when people complain about the prices we choose, but then we turn around and bitch about a free service not being good enough for us. That is a double standard writ large. There are plenty of sites and services that do the things that some artists are complaining about, with the trade-off being less users. This is not the problem of the staff, this is the problem of the user. The Staff have 0 obligations to fulfill even their promises because it's /theirs/ just like I have 0 obligations to lower my prices for users who want cheap and great art. If you don't like the pricetag, don't let the door hit your ass on the way out. Especially if it's free, which is an entitlement issue more than anything.
This would all be different if we were /paying/ for the site but the fact is, many of us artists make business here FOR FREE, we can buy ads here for SUPER CHEAP, evading taxes even is SUPER SIMPLE. If you operated a business outside of FA, this is absolutely not the case. Every monetary investment you make to be seen and provide your service in a store, at a booth or advertise on a billboard comes with the risk of lost investment. Not so for FA, who pays for the site from pockets, donations and ads. Sure, the site is crappy, but it's free, and they literally pay for us to make money with 0 cost for advertisement via our galleries. At this point, it's an admittance we both need each other. We want to stay on FA because it's obviously got a huge number of members to sell to, and they want us to use their site because they can make money off of ads and donations. The frustration is because of our dedication to the site which makes us think we are entitled to how it's run, but it's baseless because our dedication never came with a guaranteed payoff to begin with.
On FA, the only reason I got burned is because I let "friends" commission me (who then didn't pay for months), or if I don't request payment right away. I normally don't do art before I get paid, which cuts down on the whole "getting burned" thing. :x Or at least take half up front.
Anyways, you're welcome to do whatever you want and what works for you, but that doesn't mean you should force everyone to change from what works for them.
There's also feedback, so you can tell if someone's going to screw you over. I've never had a problem leaving feedback, so I'm not sure why you couldn't leave feedback.
It wasn't even commissions I got burned on - it was adoptables. I set them aside, the person never paid, & then the other people who were interested had already bought something else.
I'd be for that I guess. I mean, I do create my own artistic content, but i'm not sure how those who don't actually make something feel. Frankly, i fyou have an FA account, something should be getting posted in it, and it shouldn't just be some dead account with zero activity going on on it other than just for posting comments. Since FA is an art site afterall.
First of all, not all YCH postings are auctions.
Secondly, since these are private sales being sold through the owner/service individual themselves, the auction law may not hold to them.
Thirdly: "An auctioneer who does not have the required license but who executes a sale can be penalized, but the sale remains valid; an auction is void, however, when it is conducted without the owner's consent." Soooo... auctions are still valid, the seller might be slightly penalized (or the county auctioneer's board totally annoyed that they were harassed for a $X non-Rembrant art sale).
Lastly, not all states/countries require you to have a license in order to be an auctioneer. In that same vein, some counties DO require you to get an auctioneer's license in order to sell on ebay, but you're not complaining about that.
I can't find anything that says they require sites like ebay to have an auctioneer's license, since they're technically not the auctioneers. My Google-fu is not bringing anything up. I don't think ebay even has one, since they consider themselves as simply a "tool" for sellers (aka the sellers are the "auctioneers") or as an escrow service (like Amazon - they used to claim they weren't, but now they can't decide).
Thus, I deduce that FA would not need an auctioneer's license, and since auctions are still valid even if an auctioneer does not have a license, the seller and buyer can still be held accountable under private sale contracts/agreements. I see no issues here at all.
Elephants aren't supposed to climb trees. It's not that the elephant is bad, or defying you, it's just that you're expecting too much out of it (general you, not you you)
as far as deleting, having to delete the same thing day after day would get annoying. You're talking about how they're not listening to what the artists want, but you're ignoring the facts that not all artists want to use FA like an auction house, & not everyone wants to see a frontpage full of YCH & auction pictures.
But I do see the point, it should be up to the artist to decide how much is too much - it's their page, so it should be their decision if they want to post 1 ad or 20.
I don't think the admin should have to police something like this, but if users are spamming it badly enough that the admin feels the need to step in, it's probably gotten to be a decent sized problem with a moderate amount of people complaining.
We've got some serious improvements coming to FurBuy soon, we're VERY excited. =D
And before anyone says it no i dont want cheap art i spend a ton on art and often 100-200+ per piece and i feel this way. auctions are fine..spamming constant and obnoxious reminders are not fine to many which is why this is happening. its bothering enough people for admins/dragoneer to feel its something to limit which says it is an issue
The 'flooding' can be EASILY solved by unwatching said artists that spam if it REALLY bothers people that much, but people can't even do that.
The busker already has a great deal. The store front is the most popular place in town. He has a higher percentage of people seeing his act to get money. It's entitlement writ large to me.
exposure comes from quality and happy customers etc as i know 8 or so of 10 new artists i find are either word of mouth or via artists journals saying take a look. auction spam makes me avoid artists and im not alone. users here buy the art and we too should have a voice in how the site is handled, our opinion is just as important as artists. I think in this case the admins etc have agreed with many users that the spam is getting out of hand and like i said many artists i commission do just fine and do not spam (some even do YCHs and such).
The YCH restriction just seems rather out of the blue, and that the admins caved to the excessive complaints about advertisements, which really isn't a big deal, and users can manage the 'spam' themselves by unwatching the offending artist, or deleting the notifications.
But eh, whatev.
You have 6 main ways to advertise the same thing (in descending order from most visible to least).
1. Paid ad space,
2. A main submission you can post your commissions/product
3. a journal dedicated to the specific products,
4. Scraps to do the same thing, numerous times (could be wrong on this, the rule has been worded somewhat poorly and needs revising).
5. In addition to that, you have the ability to say, in every single one of your unique submissions, that you are open for commissions/selling a product.
6. You also can permanently (or temporarily) change your journal header and footer to state what you are selling.
Part of advertising and utilizing a free service to it's fullest potential is to be in numerous places, and easily accessible to audiences.
Alternative/social media:
1. Sofurry. Make a post there linking back here. Buy an ad there. I think they are the #1 most used fur site (could be here or there, can't remember which)
2. Facebook. Make a facebok page specifically for your art linking back here.
3. Twitter. Make a twitter account specifically linking back here. This is the perfect place to repeat the same exact information multiple times.
4. FA forums. Make an account there and be more visible.
5. Chats. SF and F-List a re both great places to randomly log on, meet people and share that you are selling a service/product.
6. Mailing list. Set up an email specifically for contacting people who are interested in know whenever you are open/selling something.
7. Other art sites
8. Other bid sites.
Being as visible as you can does not necessitate making the same post even more than once a week in the same site/form, and leaving the old one up.
There is a false dichotomy going on here, that is, you must post the same thing in the same format within a certain period, or you will not got recognized. This is demonstrably not true. Even if you cannot invest in a $25 advertisement, I highly suggest you invest $10 in a marketing book and start actively participating in the potential that is social media. Of course, a lot of it is experience, and there are many of us who have our own success stories and would probably be more than happy to give you advice on how to maximize your visibility, and your profits.
1) The ad rotates a lot to begin with so doesn't have as much exposure as you'd expect. Additionally, unless you're someone undercutting yourself and others, you're unlikely to get work out of it. You're paying $20 bucks for no profit, so buying adspace isn't really helpful to the individual artist in terms of profit.
2) It is seen once by the general public, and only for a short time. It is seen by your watchers, and if they choose to bid/buy they will do so.
3) It is only seen by your watchers, and those who MIGHT actually look at journals. Most don't (unless you throw 'free art' in the title, and those aren't about to buy anything, I speak from experience). Additionally, if they chose not to buy it when you uploaded it, what changes their mind now?
4) It is only seen by your watchers. If they chose not to buy it when you first uploaded it to your main gallery, what changes their mind now? No exposure, you're only uploading it to the same audience again and again.
6) Works great! Provided people read your journals. Again, no extra exposure, only your watchers, and again, the very few who read journals.
And as for your next bunch, it's pretty much all the same thing with some added special interest bits.
1) I prefer not to upload to several sites, as many people share the same sentiment. Sofurry and Inkbunny both allow cub. I don't want my artwork associated with that. If you assume that people won't do that, I suggest you look into reddit. To this day people still associate it with pedophilia because of /r/jailbait.
2) How many people are searching on facebook for furry artists? I have a facebook for my business, and to this day I have maybe 2-3 people watching it, from the moment I had started advertising it. Additionally, pornography isn't allowed on FB, but many furry artists draw mostly or exclusively porn.
3) Again, who watches my twitter? People who watch me on FA... and Allan. Did I not mention if they don't want to buy it repeatedly showing it to them is not going to sell it?
4) The FA forums... are not really that good for advertising art. I've tried before, but it seems like most of the interest there lies in free art or requests. It's an OPTION, and could bring in some, but not enough to negate the harm done by the change to the AUP.
5) Not sure what SF is, unless you mean Sofurry. Made my point about that site already. F-list is a kinks site for people to meet and greet for cybering. It would look extremely unprofessional, to me, to go on a site like that and offer up commissions. I have in the past tried this method in Furnet IRC, but it's usually greeted with rudeness or annoyance at my having dared to advertise in the channel.
6) You keep on listing methods for me to barrage people further, who already have chosen not to bid or buy, with my status of being open for commissions or auctions or whatnot.
7) Already discussed this. There are 2 currently non-beta sites that exist as far as I know. Inkbunny and Sofurry. Both allow cub art. Neither are what many of us, myself included, want our art associated with. Inkbunny is a mostly pedo based site, so I can't imagine the userbase would be interested in buying my artwork.
8) Bid sites have very low traffic for what it's worth, in terms of people browsing for random sales. I've used them since I was something like 16, and to this day I have made one sale that was not brought there by a journal... and something like 2 or 3 total. Bid sites don't work if you're pricing yourself reasonably for time spent and aren't an extremely popular or well known artist.
"Being as visible as you can does not necessitate making the same post even more than once a week in the same site/form, and leaving the old one up."
Where did I ever say this? When I advertise for my auctions in the past, I have uploaded anywhere from 1 to 5 times in a week, spaced at least a day apart. Before uploading the new submission I deleted the old one.
"I highly suggest you invest $10 in a marketing book and start actively participating in the potential that is social media."
Insulting to say the least. Do you understand how social media works among furries? If you're posting random stuff throughout the day, being friendly with people, being very open or saying a lot of things, you'll get some followers on twitter that weren't brought from FA, perhaps. But for those of us who try to stay strictly professional, or who aren't comfortable plastering our personal life or thoughts out there, it's no real use. There's a distinct difference between what a large corporation does with social media... whether it is Pepsi, Disney, Blizzard, Valve, etc., and what the average Joe T. Furry does with social media. My twitter feed has a few uploads, but for the most part I announce when I'm open for sales, or do a few free head sketches (and what do we say about giving free art... it really does not make you money, people don't get interested in buying because you have given free art). I'm an extremely private person. Due to the nature of my artwork I'm even more private with my personal life.
You need to understand this very basic FACT about the furry market... The furry market is not, was not, and will never be on par with the professional art market. Whether we are talking graphic art, custom illustrations, freelance, concept art... Furries are not willing to pay what artwork is actually worth 90% of the time. People will complain about prices being too high, when someone puts 20+ hours into a painting. They will complain about a $30 badge being too high priced, or a $10 icon. Aside from that, networking doesn't work the same way. The majority of viewers come from front page clicks. When you aren't an artist who can or does push out several pieces a day (or even a week) you don't get half as much exposure. You can try for a niche market (babyfurs, macro, what have you), but it becomes a game of becoming recognizable.
So what you're saying basically, is that we should throw out all we know about the furry market, apply what we know about the "real world" market, and make even less money than we already do, undercutting ourselves as we are, because uploading something for exposure once every 24 hours at maximum is too much of a hassle for a select few people to handle.
I remind you, I'm not talking about people who upload every five minutes or even every hour. Yes, that's too much. I'm also not talking about people who upload copy paste adoptables in several separate submissions. I'm talking about people who are reasonable with their uploads that are getting fucked over because people got annoyed with the unreasonable people, and in order to stop it, instead of putting in a 24 hour rule, they did away with the ability to advertise at all.
It goes from unreasonable to one group to unreasonable to another.
Also, as I have already stated, what stops them from saying "Every badge should be uploaded to the same submission" or every icon. Both get as much work put into them as something like what I offer for adoptables, and both may have details lost at a shrunken version, but it's kind of the same thing right? Oh no, another head and shoulders image of a character, that's too similar to what was already uploaded, and using the tools given to me by this site to delete specific submissions from my inbox just WON'T DO! You're not being reasonable in the least, nor are you paying attention to the specific market we are dealing with.
FA's problems are the people who upload the same media over and over again, spamming both their watchers and the public, which drowns out people who don't make it a habit to do so as well as swells the server content.
Not that you do, apparently, so the new rule in whole doesn't apply to you. You claim you delete the old posts and you do not repeatedly post the same content in the same format without doing so. So what's the problem.
The furry market is not divorced form "the real world", so that's a red herring all together. Market principles don't suddenly disappear just because you ascribe to furrydom. You constrict your market, your visibility gets kicked in the pants. Period. No amount of daily spamming the same content here will make up the difference, unless you make a bot. The reason furies make less than other artist of similar caliber are varied, one being the subject matter you choose to specialize in when many studios prefer variety. I get paid pretty similarly to a gambling machine company here, and I didn't even go to school for art, and I attribute that, partially, to diligently updating my status on other sites. Furrydom, however, IS a niche market, and babyfur and all that shit are just components that make up the whole. That may be part of the reason you are not getting more visibility; you are operating in a niche market already, which you further constrict your sellability in by choosing not to cater to some components of that niche market (and that's your choice, no judgement in it.)
It is clear that you do have rudimentary understanding of basic market principles. You may take that as condescending, but it's obvious. By trying to split an already niche market down to it's components and by somehow suggesting that ONE site is somehow quashing your marketability more than your own choice not to use other free sites to broaden your audience. This can only be described as ignorance, and that's not terrible if you've only been active for a couple of years, and learning as you go. You can choose to be offended by it and pout, or you can choose to use it as a learning tool ans step up your game. Either way, Furaffinity is primarily a GALLERY site, NOT a store front, they merely condone it. Thus, any arguments about how your personal sales are going while operating through the site with new or old rules are moot unless you are directly paying for the service and any of it's guarantees.
Again, many of your "problems" are self made. Plenty of people boost both their visibility and their sales via facebook, twitter and other social sites, including myself. You've made it clear these aren't for you, and that's a personal choice. I've never bought an ad here, only on other sites linking back here, and there was a noticeable influx of people filling my queue, as well as watchers. If a $20 banner gets me a single $80 commission, it is a return investment. This far outperforms the effort and the time put into posting the same content repeatedly.
But apparently you don't do this, so, again, the problem seems exaggerated, self made and mostly hypothetical.
Except it DOES, this was already addressed by the administration. What I do, which is NOT EVEN A PROBLEM, is against the AUP as of now.
As for the "Self made" problems, that's utter bullshit. But you don't want to read my post apparently, because I explained all that in it, but you know what? That's fine. You're ridiculous and completely missing the points I'm making. I won't bother responding to you further, because bashing my head against a brick wall seems as pointless as trying to educate you.
If you don't like the way someone runs their business, you can always elect to leave. If you are part of the problem, then good riddance. Sorry you're too busy shitting bricks and being as big an asshole you can be to be reasonable.
Believe me, I know you have to let people know you're out there, but it you do it in a way that turns off potential customers, obviously that's going to work against you.
Make it work like this: Front page has "art for sale" submissions separate from "Recent artwork," "recent stories,"Recent music." In the notifications they appear as a separate group for easy searching of current sales people might be interested in, as well as easy nuking should they rather see our "real art." Then we can have sub categories like YCH, auctions, adopts, etc.
Creating a mere tag system would end up searching everyone, Not just my favorite artists. That way I see the sales I want to see and I wouldn't have to bother. Sifting through notifications unless I wanted to find something to buy. Make these submissions able to be placed in my gallery or scraps but not "Faveable" until they have hit one of the aforementioned boxes so people don't end up with empty fave submissions if these things get deleted.
In other words, please make a way that makes it easier for artists to sell our art. Help our watchers lessen their own work by separating their favorite artists Gallery/exhibit and scraps from this "spam" we artists call our income. If anything, please make the system more dynamic. I believe this solution or something very much like it would make the site itself a hell of a lot more functional for everyone here.
I know we have a programmer out there somewhere with the skills to make this system possible. Aren't we damn proud to be furries? Shouldn't we have a fully functioning system that shows we are worthy of the art, community, and sheer culture we have come to create, right under the outside world's nose? I don't want to see any artist leave over something like a policy change or because they can't afford to support themselves doing what they love to do. And I don't want to see any watcher leave because they are annoyed to death by advertising. As a community we must stay together before we fall to petty shortcomings.
1) Convenience. If it's all on one site it is easier for the customer to take part. Not everyone wants to sign up for a new site just to bid on an auction.
2) Exposure. It's easier to drum up interest in an auction in your own gallery more often than not. It's rare these days that people will actually browse auction sites for commissions, most bids are brought there by the submission or journal on another site like FA.
3) Familiarity. A lot of these auction sites are really complicated. It took me about 30 minutes to figure out how to even upload an auction on the dealer's den. When I want to go in and check it I usually resort to clicking the link in my email. In your gallery you already know where everything is. It's not a big deal for everyone, but for many it can be.
4) I don't know what to call this, but honestly.... I'll just say 'you'. For a good few years every time someone tried to sell something on any site, there was a good chance that I would see you touting "furbuy furbuy" and now you do the same with "auction sites auction sites". I see you all over the damn place, and I'll say right away that it's really off putting when someone comes in and acts like someone doing it differently is an idiot or something. The main reason I use the dealer's den over furbuy is because I don't want to use your site due to the constant yapping I see from you. I don't mean this as a personal attack, but as serious criticism. If you want to get people to use bidding sites, buy ads on FA, or hold a panel at a con about them, and if someone asks about them don't give them this "we are so great" attitude. Be helpful and give them the facts.
OR ooo oo, imagine if you could simply just select the option of seeing someone's gallery and not their scraps.
Yes being able to filter the tags would be glorious. I can see this site going much further than where it stands, but at the moment I can deal with what I have.
Art site? Screw artists!
:D im so proud!
AT LEAST fA is allowing us to post said adverts to our main gallery again. people should bitch less. -_-
it's going to take them years...
That way people who LIKE to buy them can browse through that section without having to search, etc.
Is it really that hard?
Still, maybe just limit ads to once a week or once a day per auction/with the section?
Because simply adding a section at ALL would greatly reduce the need for such frequent advertising.
Where there's just a list of artists who are open for commissions and each one gets a thumbnail as an example. Users could search by Genders/characters/styles/fetish or whatever. or just scroll though recent ones.
This was just something and friend and myself were talking about a few weeks ago.
It's just something I was thinking would be a really cool idea.
And I agree, the video game streams are rather annoying spam.
I personally (read: this statement is not made in an administrative capacity) would be quite happy with a rule that streaming notification submissions must be in some way art related, and in compliance with the advertising rules. Of course, having a proper streaming notification system would be better than using submissions.
The rule this journal discusses only partly covers streaming notifications because they're not always advertising (they're quite often simply "watch me draw!").
* Taxidermy per the dictionary definition allowed.
* Wet specimens or anything else outside that definition not allowed.
Not finalised at this point, so don't use this post to determine whether you can upload stuff.
Wet-specimens are used for scientific purposes and can be used for anatomy references etc. I do not think wet-specimens should be exempt from the ability to be posted as they are also quite artistic, much like taxidermy which mounts an animals skin to a base.
No there's a lot more to it than that. There's chemicals you need, you need to pose it sufficiently. It's not just "Throw it in a jar and done".
I'm not a doer of Taxidermy, but I enjoy seeing what people do with it.
They do fall under the broad category of zoological specimens, they don't fall under the more strict category of taxidermy. They're not the same thing.
But both Taxidermy and zoological specimens (Example: Wet specimens) are both the art of preserving the animal or mounting it, or similar. Why disallow one and not the other?
A zoological specimen usually has all the insides or bones etc in tact for the educational purposes they serve. While Taxidermy mounts are stuffed. Are they going to demand irrefutable proof that the mounts that are posted are stuffed so it's Taxidermy?
Like these: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:O.....-_IMG_9062.jpg
Those are classified as Zoological specimens, but could easily be passed off as Taxidermy. How would one determine if they could stay if someone were to make a post like that?
Or what about a study skin, like these? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:B.....ote_Voegel.jpg
Study skins are classified as Zoological specimens (not taxidermy), however it's practically the same exact thing. The skin/fur/feathers are preserved, and is stuffed, along with wooden supports.
Honestly what's the difference? They're just called by a different name.
I'm not disagreeing with you about the wet specimens. I think it's just that they are catering to the fact that most people find wet specimens REALLY creepy/disturbing and on par with gore.
Also it's easy to distinguish because mounted specimens = taxidermy and animals in a jar = wet specimens.
I do recall some recent issues relating to somebody trying to sell wet specimens on FA, which resulted in numerous complaints (and apparently in the location where FA is hosted, potential legal headaches - given I'm in Australia I'm hardly an expert on US law).
My question to you is this. What convincing argument is there that we should allow wet specimens, and is the argument greater than the backlash?
I think as the site stands now, there's going to be backlash over something someone posts on here anyways. People are offended by wet specimens? Well there's a lot of people offended by castration and scat fetish submissions as well, but there seems to be no discussion about disallowing them.
Why not make it a rule, that you can't sell the specimens on this site, but you can still submit them to show off. And if they're for sale, post a link to it being sold on another site (Like Etsy), that way FA won't be affected of some legal backlash were to happen over them selling it.
I'm not trying to tell anyone what to do here, just to clarify. I'm just trying to throw out suggestions that could
make as many people as possible satisfied.
Again, perfect points. I honestly hope they'll be looked into.
At least if you just post a link to it being sold on Etsy, then FA won't have to worry about legal backlash. Etsy will.
You've got a couple of things at play here:
* They were never actually permitted in the first place, so it isn't a case of reasons to disallow - we need reasons to allow. As discussed above, taxidermy and zoological specimens are not the same thing, and only the former was ever permitted.
* People arc up a lot more when you cross the line from fiction to reality (which for here means photography).
Why not make it a rule, that you can't sell the specimens on this site, but you can still submit them to show off. And if they're for sale, post a link to it being sold on another site (Like Etsy), that way FA won't be affected of some legal backlash were to happen over them selling it.
At that point we're micromanaging things. We really don't want to do this. You can't have a clear and understandable set of rules if you're documenting a thousand niche exceptions.
It really wouldn't be a huge change to just allow posting of taxidermy/specimens, but selling is not permitted. I'm not a fan of this current mindset of "Let's just eliminate it altogether instead of just making a clarification or two of what we want".
I understand you don't want to make the rules too long and extensive, but really it would not be a huge addition. They're pretty short as of now.
I can't really say you won't have just as much backlash if you start pulling wet specimen submissions.
My reading of the landscape is that we would have far less of a backlash if we removed the submissions in question than if we explicitly allowed them. Either way, the status quo isn't good enough, and on that score I appreciate input from the users who wish to post them.
Like what about a dead animal that is not preserved or mounted? It's just a photo of it? Tasteful or not, which would it fall under? Would it be removed? Grey area.
And this doesn't just apply to the Taxidermy/specimen dilemma either.
I think I speak for most of the taxidermy enthusiasts on this site when I say that, no, wet specimens are not -technically- taxidermy in the way of textbook definitions (though it is to me, for what my opinion counts), and most people who dabble in one dabble in the other, even in the least with an interest or appreciation if they don't practice both sides.
Wet specimens are used, primarily, by science to document species for further research. As an artist, they are also invaluable tools for studying anatomy. I know this seems archaic in a time where Google Images exists, but they're also appreciated as curios and oddities.
To be frank, I make side money selling my work on them. I take and do them on commission, just like artwork. To some people, they ARE artwork.
I think a lot of people are disenchanted because they assume I just take a dead animal off the side of the road or what have you and cram it in a jar, but it's nothing like that. There are chemicals involved (some dangerous at that), and the animal can be posed and set in a preferred position, just like normal taxidermy. There's also the choices of which vessel to use for what animal. Sometimes it's whatever I can find, but as with some rabbits I've done, I've put them in the old latch-top Ball canning jars, which was an aesthetic choice.
I'm really sincerely interested in talking to staff and administration about this, because I think you're making a big mistake by not allowing wet specimens and only allowing "traditional" taxidermy. I know others share my sentiments as well, and I'm willing to champion for this cause because it's something I really believe in. I like showing off my work to those with a morbid curiosity or a fancy for the gothic, and I know a lot of people appreciate seeing it as well.
Wet specimens are seen in art galleries for goodness sake. I bring you to Damien Hirst - one of the most famous for making such things an art form and is seen as an artist. Yes, his art has gotten some negative response, but it has also gotten good like the specimens on this site.
By the technical definition of taxidermy; "The art of preparing, stuffing, and mounting the skins of animals with lifelike effect" wouldn't that mean you would also need to remove plain pelts, tails, bones and general 'bits' that are not mounted?
Like someone said, if it's because people are being offended, does that mean if we make some petition or have enough reports we can get rid of scat also? I'm sure plenty of people are just as disgusted by that. Or even spider photos. It could set arachnophobes such as myself into panic attacks. But do I say 'take all the spiders down', no, I click refresh or delete it out my inbox and get on with my day.
I'm not going to promise a "yes" or "no" answer to it, but I can confirm that we haven't reached a final decision.
Rodents and other common wildlife here is perfectly fine to sell. The person who you question was trying to sell still born puppies in which is illegal but owning and posting them is not.
Even in taxidermy forums people practice wet preservation because some taxidermists prefer to have the animal fully intact.
I have noticed a lot of Taxidermists like to do both, which is why it would be pretty sucky if they disallowed one but not the other. A lot of Taxidermists/Taxidermy groups would have their Galleries pretty depleted =/
but it's a good start. hoping the YCh fad dies out soon enough. it's a travesty to commission artists because they'd sooner just put up 5 mediocre $10 preposes instead of maybe one good $50 slot.
Or they see popular artist A do it and get 3 figure sums and figure the same could happen for them, without a fanbase. rofl okay.
Anyway, woo. Slightly less YCH spam !
FUCKING THIS
Good day ol chap *tilts his top hat*
It's an actually good technique to get interest from those commissioners who don't have anything in particular in mind, but find they're interested in that particular pose.
If the artist doesn't do as good of job with the YCH pieces as a regular piece, that's their problem. I've seen really good YCH stuff, and even done same-to-better quality on YCH stuff myself.
And if it's a non-popular artist thinking they'll get the same as top names, well that's just big dreams. No need to begrudge them for that.
I'm seeing more of the latter than former.
I'll agree, there are some awesome pre-posed stuff. And those artists who DO work around that model don't break these rules usually. Awesome.
But I'm talking about people who post really shoddy roughs of about 3-4 poses in a 24 hour period. At least clean it up and make it presentable instead of hoping the buyer will be interested in something that vaguely looks like a humanoid body.
The artist can offer whatever services they so choose. If there is a market for those services, good for them.
To be honest, I think the biggest problem is artists underselling themselves and trying to make up for it with volume. THis isn't helped by the perception that people in the furry community don't have any money.
Great ethos you have there.
The majority of ych and adoptables I've seen are just lazy attempts at grabbing a quick buck. Its all people are out to do anymore instead of the work it takes to do a full blown illustration or pinup.
Or like I said, they see popilar artist x make 3 figure sums from the auctions and expect the same without building a fan following.
To me, that's a lack of ethos.
But yeah, its silly for someone without the demand and exposure to EXPECT a high end bid to be fair! However a 3 figure sum really isn't much considering the quality a lot of artists put out. [Assuming lower 3 figure sums? like $200-500?]
And I guess what I see as lazy is (I'm looking at like, ad examples, and I'm sure there's good ones) where people don't even BOTHER cleaning up the sketch first. They just kinda throw the really gritty unrefined sketch up and BAM (sometimes it's hard to tell what's going on). I've even seen people draw, say a dog head and refuse to adapt it to a feline base. If you're paying for it, shouldn't you have a say in that kind of stuff?
And touching on your last point, there has to be a demand somewhere. If one's not typically open for commissions or takes them in VERY limited bouts, then the auction model is perfect. But if it's someone who's ALWAYS open for grotesquely underpriced commissions and they decide to do an auction out of the blue to see how high their auction goes, they'll be sorely disappointed xD And that is what I see the most of.
How is having a pre-done sketch lazy? How is working hard on a design lazy? So, are the portions of commissions when you're sketching the work something you don't charge for, since it's lazy work? I mean, come on.
Considering that the preposes sell because they go for less and the $50 slots don't, I think they're making a smart decision based on what sells.
Not that great for you if you don't like seeing that, but in the end, it's the artists choice.
Art is a commodity, not a necessity, there's really no merit in selling grossly underpriced. The artist ends up working themselves into exhaustion for pennies an hour.
And if they need exposure? Make. Lots. Of. Art. You can't go into business without any form of reputation.
2. Can I have a little more clarification on what kind of submissions are being limited, ie how are you actually defining a submission as an advertisement? Is it based solely on text in the submission or does it include advertising in the description of the submission as well? It's easy enough to identify as ads YCH and Auction adverts, but what if the submission itself is just an artwork, and the description states something like "I made this. If you like it, here's a link that will direct you to my ordering info / website / price page / etc where you can buy it or other art from me." I mean, it's too easy to argue that any submission on the site can be construed as an advertisement for an artist. I understand the reason for the rule change, but some further clarification would be appreciated!
2 If you post just a regular piece of artwork, you can write whatever you want in the description including 'go here to look at my commissions/ych/adoptables'.
Gee...
I have roughly 300 watchers, and only about 20 pay attention to me. And 90% of the time someone who DOESN'T watch me, buys my auction.
And then watches me back.
And usually, he finds it from me advertising. No one on my watchlist has complained to me about the deleting process I do. Like Paper-wings stated, people can decide who they watch. I find this sad.
But you know what'd be really useful? A watch for #value filter option when the "placed in watch list is loaded.
For example
Username has been added to your Watch!Watch Options[√] Submissions
[√] Journals
Unwatch[Click here to save and continue.The +Watch/-Watch button and Buddy List could also be organized as a MS Excel chart-like order with checks as well for organization, navigation, and convenience in terms of using a similar feature. That way, we can just watch as friends/family, or just for journals, art, etc. to avoid clutter in the notifications.
Someone really good with a resume of website work should show the FA staff what they can do. Perhaps then things could get done as fast as everyone demands it.
Also YCH auctions are often put into main galleries to let people see them. If you make people put them in scraps, only the select few watchers will come see, instead of how many an artist could have if it were out in public.
Basically, it sounds like you caved in to the people who don't like adoptables, ych, auctions, etc. (who mostly hate them because they're cheap and don't want to pay an artist the money they deserve). o3o;
I figure there's uses for both, but I miss the old days where people made a normal mono-species character with regular coloration that really represented them as a person. Now people insist on having impossible-to-replicate fur patterns, colors from the entire spectrum that make the eyes bleed, and a mix of species that makes you wonder why they even using a species identifier in the first place instead of just saying "Creature - Mammal" lol... *old and bitter and under 30* :P
As for the mono-species characters-I am SOOOOOOOOOOO happy when I see interesting characters instead of the 1,000,000 canines I've seen this week. I used to like canines until I met furries. Now I pray for anything else. So bring on the chimera creatures and odd color patterns~ I love 'em!
And I find that YCH often come cheaper then commissioning the artist ;w; ! That's why I lot of people go the YCH route also I do YCH's often because I'll draw a pose and not want to use it for my oc's so why not sell it to someone who wants it? it's win win for the artist and the person who wants that pose kinda thing. :U
I like doodling a lot to practice anatomy and proportions, and YCH are good at getting those reeeeally good ones that I don't want to use myself but don't want them rotting.
I apparently never knew the old days because I don't remember this to ever be true but GOD I WISH IT WAS. I've seen 'lone wolf' and 'I have 3 fursonas to represent all the different parts of my super special self' so many times I could scream.. X__X
The 60-second flood protection already gets rid of the flood issue. Even so, no one will be submitting advertisements for their art every minute. I usually see them once a day, tops. If it's a one-day auction, then maybe twice and once via journal. Considering the large amount of other submissions and journals that are usually in one's inbox, it really does not flood anything.
I don't know. I mean, I can understand the motive behind this but it just seems to put a big damper on the successful way things were going in my opinion.
I generally agree with this.
But lately, I've been seeing a lot of 15/20/20 minute auctions where the artist re-uploads the same image every five minutes. =/
And that is precisely the sort of behaviour that results in rules like this one.
Honestly it feels like you guys are just saying, well we don't want to take the five minutes out of our day to do it, so lets just bulk it and be done with it.
Things like this can ruin artist activity on the site, and if the artists go, the commissioners follow.
So if you guys aren't careful you can sink the ship, in other words.
Zing! I can be a jaded FA user to :D
But seriously if it ain't broke don't fix it. Before hand people just had to check all/delete and go on to the next page. Now it's gonna cause hassles, people tossing others under the bus, giving all the new mods something to do. More red tape.
The problem isn't so much that the system isn't broken, rather that it doesn't exist. Separation of advertising and art (plus ability to browse/search the ads) is what is really needed.
Furbid/FurEauction/Furbuy/thedealersden are only for us OOOOLLLLLLLDDDDDD farts
Mind you, if we properly implement "commission information" again in future, that should render the account redundant.
Though most of their "trying" ends up just shooting themselves in the foot. XD
I really don't see what this AUP update accomplishes, it sounds like you can just scrap the one ad you've already put up to put up a new one indefinitely.
I don't see why else you would punish artists in the meantime by restricting or taking action against them for advertising with this latest AUP update.
The problem is we've got two noisy and mutually exclusive groups here:
* Artists who want to eat. Free advertising via submissions helps them do that. Naturally being able to advertise is desirable from the point of view of the artists.
* Viewers who want to see art, not ads. Yes, the sheer quantity of ads that gets uploaded now is starting to annoy people.
Two groups who aren't going to agree, and this is basically an attempt to draw a line in the sand. Is it ideal? No. The artists are going to complain that a large amount of their advertising has been cut, and the other users will complain that we haven't eradicated it completely. The only way we're going to solve this once and for all is to have a proper for sale/commission information framework.
I did have some input on this though - relaxing the commission info sheets part because it doesn't always make sense to have it all in the one submission.
And when, in FA time, can we even expect this sale section?
2+ years?
This requires a balancing act. Excessive advertising drives away potential customers too.
And "FA time" is precisely why I won't go on the record with any sort of estimate - failure is always an option!
In case it isn't perfectly clear, I do understand that artists need to eat, and there are things that I'd love to see which would help both artists and customers. I'm just not going to deny that the current system is not designed for this purpose, nor am I going to deny the fact that no matter what rules are in place it won't please everyone.
So what was the point of making a compromise when neither side agrees with said compromise?
On the upside, it does help make a case for having a proper framework for this stuff. Now all we need is to get a specification and implement it.
(No laughter from the peanut gallery!)
I'll be making one last post for the night that isn't nested 57 layers down a comment tree, then I'm really off to bed.
If there is a market, let them sell it. Some people have gotten creative with adoptables they've purchased and used them as their fursona. Some are unique and you'd never know them as adopts.
I've seen good ideas above that don't involve having to search for someone's business.
1. Selectable journal / submission / advertising menus when you watch someone...and being able to change that option.
2. A green border so you know it's advertising. Make it so a submission can be uploaded as such, and just like maturity ratings, be filtered or not.
This would let it be user-customized, allow the artists who sell the ability to do so without relegating them to a section people may forget to check, and (hopefully) be a suitable compromise for everyone.
Just my two cents. :)
Already having been given warnings for having my Commissions ID in my main gallery.. I'd like to get this cleared up before a ban happy admin comes after me.
If I post my Commissions price guide in my main gallery(ONLY ONCE), am I then still able to post an advertisement to my main gallery for lets say, a YCH? As long as it's only one ad at a time that isn't your commissions ID, it's allowed right?
TL;DR:
Am I allowed to have both a commissions ID AND a separate ad for something completely different like a YCH in my main gallery at once?
Like I said, I got in huge heat for advertising before this update and I'd rather not get banned for misunderstanding. ^^;
Thanks!
Just giving my two cents though. I have two accounts already (one sfw and one nsfw) to deal with the split in audience preference, so I don't have to worry if the AUP update gets ridiculously strict.
Lets face it, using submissions as they currently stand for advertising is not ideal in any sense of the word - but without code changes, that's what we're stuck with.
What about clean and adult commission lists / pages?
Artists should be able to have 2, one clean and if they wish an adult one. Though no-one cares I guess, most minors on this site have the safe filter disabled anyway.
I make a living on my art.
In order to sell art, I must advertise.
So, to make it clear, I am going to put FA's new AUP rule into a real life analogy.
In this case I will use Snicker's, and TV ads.
I know it's rough but the point persists.
So Snicker's spends $4 million on a commercial. They are only allowed to show this commercial one time. In order for them to be allowed to show another commercial, they must spend another $4 million to make and air an entirely different commercial. If they do not wish to spend time and money on a new commercial, that's fine, they are allowed to show it again, but only to people that have already eaten Snicker's bars.
Thus, the only new customer's they have brought in are the select group that saw the first and only commercial they were allowed to air.
As imperfect as it all is, the intention is to balance free advertising for artists with... well, art. The only reason submissions are being used for this at all is that we don't have anything better at this time.
I've stated previously what I'd ideally like to see. The matter is definitely under discussion internally, but I can't go on the record with any sort of estimate because a. we haven't even settled on what we want to implement, and b. It's FA.
I don't think this update is in the best interest of artists as such - but i do understand i have absolutely no say what 'neer or people in control over the site/functionality - so as such i've accepted the TOS, and AUP - but i do have to say i don't agree with the logic behind your comment, since it's flawed and not factoring in the amount of us who don't like being forced into accepting advertising and forced to change just because it's easier.
That said, i don't care either way what you guys decide to do - i'll follow the rules, i just don't have to agree with them or like the options given.
~Lorena.
On that note, sleep time. This mutt is stuffed.
From the comments here I see that the majority of the people with the time and energy to post are not okay with these changes, and what truly bothers me is that instead of giving this up to majority vote, the staff would prefer to be lazy rather then inconvenienced and "dictate what is okay to upload, regardless of who it hurts."
YCH's, Adoptables, Design Auctions and Free advertising does not HURT the website, is not illegal, and if anything draws more users to the website as well as to the artists in the first place which leads to a higher chance of someone coming in to donate to the website, join the website, buy ad-space, support FA, create works themselves as well as help the artists they like out.
Now, I'm not saying you guys should give up on setting rules for what's fine - Also for the record I DO understand there are people who abuse advertising by posting things more then once daily and overuse the submit feature (and that being bad or annoying to your average watcher). You could in this case limit the posting to say 1 YCH Ad every second day.
I think in this case what the site is doing to fix the problem isn't a fix at all, and you should leave that to the watcher to decide whether or not to un-watch the artist or just remove the submissions from their inbox.
The site designers/Admin are not listening to the community and the site keeps fixing things we didn't need or want to have fixed in the first place. I'm not pointing the finger at anyone in particular but i'm saying if you want this to be a fair thing - you should listen to all parties (Artists/Authors/Musicians, Watchers/Supporters, Administrative personalities) and bring it up for majority vote before policing big changes to personal issues that may hinder an artist or annoy certain people.
That's my whole spiel. Hope you sleep well, and i'm sorry if i come off insensitive. I just think this is a really unfair thing to do to artists in this case. Especially those like myself who have art as their sole source of income/file our taxes/do this as a job.
Wait, wasn't I going to bed or some...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz...
And practicality doesn't play a part in democracy. Just because some wouldn't that would mean they don't care or either didn't take the time to vote on it and therefore had no ability to complain. Plus as all users would know they have the ability to vote on things they would also understand that they would have to accept the rules when passed from majority vote.
If everyone knows what they have to work with and are given the option to change an outcome, They have no right to complain if they lost or had the minority vote. Disappointment if you lose when trying is still a better feeling then Not being given the opportunity and chance in the first place.
And if more people complain, obviously there's something wrong with the system.
Unless you feel it's not up to the users of the site to voice their opinion, when it's the users who make the site what it is. A user base, and not an empty web page.
I never even insinuated that people shouldn't be allowed to complain/vote/what-have-you. I'm saying that if you use this backlash as proof that the change is wrong, then you're ignoring the people who DON'T have a problem with the change & aren't commenting here about it.
I think EVERYONE should have the chance to voice their opinion. But if you're going to use the uproar you get when you state what changes are being made, then you're going to have a very biased view of what people want. Obviously enough people complained to make them do this in the first place.
*ALL ARTISTS ARE TAUGHT TO PRESENT THEIR WORK. No matter it be selling, showing or giving away.*
But lets change the advertising to something else.
What about drawings of tigers.
or canines.
or big breasted furs and giant hyper cocked ponies.
it's all the same thing, just close the tab, shut up and move on.
just because someone doesn't like something doesn't mean it's a big deal.
People just like to make it one.
advertising is something retarded to ban.
you watch tv and bitch about the commercials, but then go out and buy the product.
it's life. there's no FA solution, there's always going to be someone not liking something, just don't look at it and delete it.
OR IGNORE IT. there's -your solution- so you don't have to deal with it.
Why should artists out there be punished for having to advertise to afford their rent and a meager 2 weeks of food.
All they have is the complaints of probably a handful of the users on the site -just because they don't like them.- when there's a good majority that do, thats why they sell, thats why artists make them.
honestly stop looking at it from your point of view and look at it as a whole.
i draw, but i don't really advertise, but i know the art business (outside of fa) and thats how it works, you show off what you have, and people follow. this wouldn't really affect me, but it would a whole lot of other artists. A whole lot.
I feel it's wrong for them to put a one submission limit on advertisement for commissions and things of the like, just because some users don't like it.
if an artist is re-uploading the same picture of tigers, or big breasted whatevers, or anything, then they're flooding just the same. The reason doesn't matter, it's the actions that are causing issues.
also, if you can't make a living without uploading the same picture 5 times a day, then get a job. I upload each piece of art once & that's it, & I have no problems making a living off my art. Why is it fair that my art gets less exposure because it's pushed off the front page by multiple uploads? I shouldn't have to upload my pieces more than once, but that's the way things are heading.
But this is all completely ignoring the point. PEOPLE COMPLAINED ABOUT MULTIPLE UPLOADS
They listened to the complaints, & they changed it. Now people are complaining about the change.
If you look at EITHER group, you're getting a biased opinion. I agree there should have been a vote. But saying 'oh, look at all the people who are against the change! you're doing this wrong' is bullcrap. You're still only looking at one side.
People are more likely to complain when they get bad service than compliment when they get good. Which means that people who like the change aren't going to be as prolific with their comments here.
They need to take a vote in a neutral territory to see what people actually want, not just listen to one group of people complaining, then the other.
and honestly, if you don't think advertisement is an important part of an artists life, you need to go back to school.
All the advertisements are made by artists, commissioned by the companies to advertise their products.
these artists, are not just advertising their products, their advertising their work at the same time.
And no ones said anything about the same image multiple times.
this is in general more than one submission that advertises for you. so it could be two different images, both saying your open for commission for custom adoptables/ stream sketches, anything.
You can only have a price guide, and one submission in your gallery that says for sale.
so, any open characters you have for sale offering any kind of services (customs included) in your gallery, would have to be moved to scraps.
The multiple posts of one image started this, but they're bringing the hammer on all of it.
You see? that's why everyone's upset.
Artists that use it with discretion are also being penalized. Even if those submissions are three days apart, of different art, it's not allowed, from what the rules say.
thats the problem people are talking about here.
no one is defending multiple reposts of one image.
And polls are hella fuckin easy to code into sites, so it really wouldn't be hard at all to set them up.
it's too political.
they should just talk to the user base, before they send them all away.
i mean honestly, whats next?
you take out one thing, something will replace it.
pretty soon we won't be able to post anything without having it reviewed.
I wish they would revert the website to the four column setup on the front page, instead of making it look like a cluttered mess, and it would be great if they brought back fender's journals. It really did make the site look more professional in my opinion, but maybe i just like simple things, and not websites that look like a smartphone.
(maybe slightly biased. lol)
i dunno they just seem like they've stuck a stick up everyone butt these days.
when are they gonna realize that all this vacant space in their ideas doesn't help. they need full formed ideas/plans and work on one thing at a time or nothings gonna get done.
If there's a better website out there with as much traffic as FA i might just be making a move here soon, the rules are beginning to be a bit ridiculous. I would have been happy if they stopped at "this is illegal take it down" or "stop using stupid keywords that don't represent the image or the characters in it."
Every other change since i've been here, has seemed redundant or to make the site "better" and usually break something in the process.
Actually, I'm all for this ruling. Anything that prevents flooding so I can get my art noticed when I upload it just once is thumbs up from me.
And i totally respect your opinion. I'm sure you're not alone in that. But i still feel like this was a small group of individuals with a particular beef of these type of auctions and a few "sellers" completely spamming the image more then once every two days or once before the auction ends to remind people about it, rather then majority vote.
it's easy believe me, to think that your opinion is the one majority have, but i'm not only speaking for myself, i have a few friends which are very much NOT okay with the new AUP, so i'm speaking from the comments i have read here which are all very similar to my own as well as those already posted before mine.
I respect your opinion and i think it's cool that you're okay with the AUP. Not expecting everyone to agree with me. The great thing about opinions is that we all have them, and just because we don't agree on something doesn't mean that either of us believe we're in the wrong. Nor does that make either of us right. Thanks for sharing your opinion though. I had already read it above before posting.
I'm not saying that what FA is doing is the right decision, but I'm pretty sure they're not just doing it to spite sellers. If you say that the people here are in the right & FA is ignoring the artists, then you're ignoring the people who complained about the multiple uploads.
But I enjoy playing devil's advocate. If everyone here was foaming at the mouth about FA not changing their AUP, I'd probably be in here pointing out why it's a bad idea & unfair to artists XD I just like to try making people see things from the other side of the fence.
It's great that you can make a living off of your art doing it the way that you do, but for me working solely through FA, and posting YCH auctions has saved me a number of times when i've been in a pinch. While i don't care how many people post stream notices or YCH or any other sort of auction reminders i do understand that it is annoying for a number of individuals.
What i mean by i may have a bias here is that FA has been notorious about not giving a fuck how many people are put out by sudden rule changes we're stuck abiding by without any say in the matter. A number of the changes involved to the site have no input or very little from the community in large i've noticed. So i understand i'm very much on the "Seller" side of this and not as much on the "Buyer" side of this due to the fact that i feel this wasn't a community proposal, and just another rule decided by those who have the power to make change on the side.
While i could have kept it to myself i didn't because while i understand i'm a single individual and my point of view may not be shared by many or it could, I would rather post it and let it be known i feel this is very unfair and sudden, not to mention slightly redundant due to the fact there is already flood protection.
I believe a compromise should be in order. Either limit the uploads to one every few days or one repost plus the original so that new watchers may find the "seller" of the artwork, or in some cases remind your bidders to get their final bids in before the auction is closed.
As far as competing, whether or not you upload YCH pictures or not you're in competition with every other artist on this website, And while YCH reposts are annoying to some, if done properly every few days by then your image would have already been past the front page and everyone is happy.
I respect everyone's opinion on this. Mine is however solid in that the Sellers who got the "shit end of the stick" pardon my french. Either we're going to have to change the way to market our product which again is already in competition with at least 40,000 artists on the website with the fluctuating prices, who use different methods of working as well as different payment options.
Getting a bit off tangent. While i appreciate both sides of this, as well as i respect those who genuinely could care less - I feel that bottom line it's the "sellers" that are put out by this and not the "buyers" who can simply unwatch the artist in question or delete them from their gallery.
I think another side of it is the front page though - it's not just between uploaders & their watchers, it's between uploaders & people who peruse the front page - you can't control what you see there, & if you spend a lot of time looking at it, it would probably get annoying to see the same picture re-uploaded, or a bunch of YCH sketches that, because they're sketches, should go in scraps (I know they're for selling, & you want to reach the maximum number of people with them, but they do look like they belong in scraps)
I don't really care so much about the reposts, it's the lack of ability to advertise that really bothers me. I mean if you create two seperate images for the same auction, both look reasonably put together in this example (completed, fully colored/shaded, look great) FA is basically dictating that we cannot upload both images because that would also be flooding. They need to either fix the wording or come up for a nice way to please everyone and not ruin things for the sellers in that aspect.
it's a bandaid on a cut that should get stitches.
I don't see why they don't just make a notice, like they did for the AUP change, and make two/three comment sections of
yes
no
or
neutral for changes. and let users comment on it.
Since it would take some work to make a poll...i mean.. the new sites still in progress from 08 and all we've seen is empty promises.
maybe if they listened to us we'd be able to help move the site along better
A commission info system by itself would only eradicate the commission info submissions, not the Auction/Adoptables/YCH/et cetera.
Whilst I agree completely that "commission information" should return in some form, "for sale" is a separate (albeit related) matter.
Streaming notices that advertise stuff are also considered ads for the purpose of this discussion (the rule doesn't address streaming notifications as a whole because not all of them are advertising art for sale).
Though this is an improvement over the old rule where you couldn't even put the original in your main gallery ruling. PROGRESS...sorta.
I think this YCH hate is a bit deeper than just not liking the upload images and has more to do with the results the people who post them get vs what other people get.
What the fuck?
So I can't advertise and set up more than one visual auction at a time? No one reads bloody journals :/
Maybe if the commission tab wasn't broken you could have some kind of sub section for current auctions and commission slots available.
Posted once only, of course.
I'm sure once better UI for commissions and such is actually implemented this kind of rule could be applied but not... until... it... is.
"first world problems" - people not have patience of simply removing submissions that advertise, or perhaps they don't know how to click-and-remove.
If you're not interested in a YCH, adoptable, or design sale - then move on, if you are interested - hell go nuts buddy!
For those who aren't interested, and are moaning - you should probably just quit life now, because I feel it may be too stressful for you.
x.x" this isn't nice news to be waking up too.
The best form of advertisements are satisfied customers and word-of-mouth. I never once used advertisements and never needed to. Wanna get your work out there? Start talking to people. Ask around if anyone is looking or if they know of anyone that's looking for something you can provide.
That isn't spam, or flooding. And I struggle incredibly badly with being social due to many personal reasons.
I can't rely on other people and word-of-mouth to get me around.
I'm sorry you have personal issues with socializing, but perhaps this might help you over come them? Best way to overcome a problem isn't to shy away from it but to embrace it and hit it head on, right?
I understood that part, as I watched several artists who have done the same - but I get over it and ignore it, I really don't see the huge problem unless you're watching 30 artists who do the same thing, in which case if it really bothers you so, simply un-watch the artist. Or admins should speak to those who abuse it and have them limited to what they can and can't upload.
It's really dampening new trying artists who are trying to get out there and known. Especially when you're being punished for something you've not actually done.
Bit unfair.
Loving all the suggestions of the options on what you see from people though, whether you can limit their journals and submissions, with what you see.
To new tabs for sale items and art. That all seems like it would be a very good direction to go down, so perhaps it's not all bad from this.
I just hope this limited uploading doesn't last.
Listen to your users on the site for once.
What I'm saying is that its going to be harder for artists to advertise. The same with Livestream posts.
What the admins are going to wind up doing is pushing away several great artists from the site with these new stupid (and pointless) rules.
Nice going admins! :D
People complained about spam.
The administration listened.
I think you're misunderstanding what I'm saying :) That's fine.
What I'm trying to say is that the admins are making it harder for artists to advertise their artwork. I never said or implied that they are making it impossible.
I understand that things in life do not come easy, but its really silly of the admins to make it harder for artists to advertise their stuff with this new update.
I hope this clears up what I mean.
They are ADVERTISING, not necessarily spamming. :/
I also don't think that this in any way supports the "Artists" and is entirely for the convenience of the "Watchers."
Also while some users may in fact use banners or browsing to find artists, unless an artist uploads a teaser here or there you have no way of knowing what you're bidding on and all a YCH auction is, is a way for the bidder to see what pose/character/scene that they're getting. Similar to an okay for a sketch.
I don't agree with this update, but i will abide, as stated above.
Slowly getting really disappointed with how FA operates these days. I don't really know what else to say other then "If it works, don't break it." Maybe ask the populus what to do before just implementing updates the majority of us never wanted in the first place. Have a voting system, give the users a voice rather then just "We did this, deal w it."
It's a shame FA has the most traffic and that the majority of people who watch me continue to use FA, because if it didn't and they didn't, i would be long gone from this website. Haven't been happy with the updates in a very long time.
~Lorena.
We all know that using submissions to advertise commission information/status and things that are for sale is not going to be an ideal solution. Either we're being too hard on the artists, or the watchers/browsers are complaining about having to dig through too many ads. Or both.
Here's the challenge. Throw me your ideas about what you want in a for sale/commission information system, how you would do it, etc. - reply here, or send me an e-mail (my username at furaffinity dot net) if you'd rather world+dog didn't read it.
I will read the feedback, and try to use as much as reasonably possible to help with hammering out a specification. It will still need to be implemented (which is another challenge entirely), and I'm not the only one involved with hammering this out - but it helps to be able to say "we have user feedback requesting this".
Now for sleep, I'll try and answer any flames directed at me specifically in the morning.
-- Hendikins
We already have
*Art
*flash
*music
*story
Etc.
It wouldn't take that much more effort to have a drop down menu with:
Completed Artwork (For Sale)
Character/YCH Auction (For Sale)
Adoptables (For Sale)
Seperate the tables on the front page to segregate types of submissions
*New Art
*New Flash
*New Music
*New Stories
*New For Sale (YCH/Adoptables/Pre poses/Completed Art)
(Optional and my opinion only.) Have the option to pay for "Special Advertising" Which would give the artist the ability to pay for their artwork to be then scaled to a higher resolution icon and kept longer on the front page, and more noticeable text on it. Or give it a seperate colored border for adult/general work that has been paid for a better ad-space Keeping it optional could then give the site an option for more revenue without forcing the artist or user to pay for it.)
As two more options it could help people find exactly what they're looking for, keep the flooding lower with the ad option i placed above, and probably keep both artists and watchers happy.
Now - this is only my opinion. But that's what I would do were i given the chance.
Also for banners give the users of the site the ability to choose where they show up. I'd keep them on if they were an option at the bottom of the page near the links for the ads/site donations/twitter/facebook/tos/submission agreement/aup links are. I just don't like seeing them on each submission i look at or where they are at the top of the page. It looks cluttered to me and i don't like the way they look.
And id be willing to pay extra, even monthly
I'd like to see also a place we can choose WHAT we want to watch (I know it's been said quite a few times). I know I'd unwatch quite a few people's journals so I can just get the people I care about's journals. By same logic, there could be an "unwatch for sale" for those who don't want to see the adds.
A more dA-like watching system would be great. So perhaps if they could make a category for the ads to be submitted to, say: Advertisement > Streaming or Advertisement > Auction Reminder, it could be filtered out by checking / unchecking the categories you want to watch.
That and a better exposure-system.
While I may be biased since dA is still my main site, I think FA could learn a thing or two from dA's group-system and frontpage / categories.
Not all of us are around 24/7 to watch other people get work done when we have our own, and there's alot of good artists out there that we'd like to see there work without being cluttered with auction and Livestream updates. x.x
If that makes sense. .___.
While I may be biased since dA is still my main site, I think FA could learn a thing or two from dA's group-system and frontpage / categories.
Anyway, not evveryone clicks the aup updates, hopefully some changes can be mmade
It'd also be cool if FA had a sort of 'most popular over the last 24 hours' box along with the newest submissions, cause that way one would sometimes want to visit the front page in hopes to actually find nice art aswell (and 24 hours is a good cap where not only the most popular who everyone knows get shown). Cause right now FA's front page is pretty much the place where you go only when you want to cry laugh at the horrifying funny things you see.
I understand that people do not want to be harassed or 'flooded' but I find it really sad that some people would rather kick up a fuss about how an artist chooses to sell their work, rather than simply +unwatching them.
Posting about the same thing over and over again within a few hours, or a few days is obviously over board. But are so many people abusing the system that it requires punishing us all?
I do repost, but I feel I've done so in a responsible manner. If an auction isn't selling I'll make one repost about it a day or so before it expires. Or I may repost it a few weeks or months later in hopes that people will be more in a financial position to buy something they wanted to before but didn't have the free cash at that particular moment.
Under the new rules it sounds like I won't be able to do that, and that's going to cripple my ability to reach out to the furry community. I do post on other social networking sites but to be honest very few people seem to use them in comparison to FA. If I had to choose between ALL of my network sites or using FA to advertise I'd pick FA because people respond more here.
I have on several occasions used FA's banner ad system and I will continue to do so. However it doesn't work well for auctions that are short term (I run my auctions typically for only 3 days) nor does it make sense for folks doing low cost auctions, for items under $5 dollars a piece.
While I think it'd be nice to have an area devoted to selling, I don't think it will solve the main issue artists need here. Exposure to people who aren't already on their +watch. If some one isn't specifically looking for 'something' to buy, I'm afraid they won't go randomly browsing a new section if it doesn't appear on the front page / isn't browse-able / searchable in the main format. Letting people discover something by chance, and having it tickle their fancy is so very important. FA is our 'fantastic store window' and this new policy is putting the curtain on us.
I hope the admin will reconsider the policy of how many 'ads' a user can have. Just one is so extremely limiting. Perhaps allowing us 3 or 5 would work better? That way there isn't a huge flood and we still have the opportunity to be noticed in the huge sea of submissions out there.
Thanks for reading.
Some artists need the front page to advertise auctions.
Instead of not allowing people to repost to their main gallery, why not just put a cap on it?
Ei: an artist can only post an advertisement for an auction once a day
That would prevent flooding and still give people exposure :/
Does this mean I now get to start a petition against giganto-back-breaking-boobs, hyper-cocks and horrible fetishes because I don't like seeing those not properly tagged on the front-page?
Why the fuck should people be allowed to ban advertisements because they're tired of seeing them.
we had the same debate with users with mlp porn and stuff..
and honestly the aup your giving us isn't completed. there's stuff thats still up in the air.
what you guys don't realize is that in order to implement rules, they need to be clear so the users can understand and completed so all subjects are covered.
It's no different! I can't STAND seeing those images.
Definitely on the list of stuff that needs to be discussed.
oh, and pro-tip. make sure that the for sale section is at the top of the page. if it's below the text or music sections, people aren't going to notice much, because how many people actually scroll down the page to look at those things? I know a chunk of FA does, but statistically speaking, not many scroll at all.
either put the for sale section at the very top and HELP the artists by giving them the most visible space, or put it under the recent artwork section so that at least it's the next thing to be seen. otherwise this whole thing will just be fucking the artists over.
and putting our ads in scraps? that won't do shit for us. scraps don't show up on the front page!
if you're going to restrict us, you need to give us the outlet NOW. or there's gonna be a big shit storm going on pretty quick.
we need the for sale section first. that will be almost INSTANT spam reduction. LOGIC!
Greate plan. Maybe i should invest more time in other sites cause i have a hell of a time sellig adopts and they only sell when i post them.
the same hour or whatever it was, that was never policed and pretty much just went away.
Now they're doing this instead.
within the past week or two?
I can't begin to imagine how hard this will be to police.
But i would sometimes give parts and accesoires into commission and maybe sell own creations in future as well.
What i would like to see would be that artists (and espically fursuit makers) could have an "Commission Info" subgallery where they can post Portofolio of their work and an price list. From comments above i think this had already been there in the past but was removed for tecnical problems?
What i would like to see on the front page would be not an gallery of the 10 most recent submissions of a kind, but instead an gallery of 10 random submissions from an time frame of maybe 3 months. This would give any active artist an chance that he gets visitors if they like his artwork, and if there is no artwork that i like i just press "F5" again until i hit something.
Question: why should artist not be allowed what they want to draw?
No-one forces you to watch and / or buy the art.
Have a nice day!
That's
literally
the
only
difference
But yeah. Other than that, it's bs how people get in a fit about it. Alot of commissioners just give the artist freedom, YCH eliminates the artist trying to figure out what to draw.
True that, I agree. Auctions also give the artist the chance to make more than they would have on a regular commission, which I think is fair since they're taking the chance to do the same amount of work for less than they charge as well.
Separate issue. A lot of good art is commission or auction work, am I to understand that all of this now has to be thrown into scraps except the current one? Most of the best art on here falls into those categories. If this is true I would hate to see a mass deletion of art just because of not wanting to deal with the hassle. I do understand the need to clean house and prevent spam, etc. Again other folders would help here as well. scraps shouldn't be a catch all for things not wanted in the main gallery.
If I am misunderstanding this please forgive my statements. However they do not change my opinion on scraps vs main gallery or the need to have the ability to create folder and name them as we see fit. Something even most other image sites (and even email sites) support.
Please forgive the intrusion.
=^'.'^= NekoYuki_Kun
If the user is advertising a completed piece and sells it, then the submission can remain once sold (since it is art in its own right, not just an advertisement).
If the submission is incomplete (like YCH) or simply an ad it can go in scraps.
Previously sold items (such as original characters or designs) may be left in a user's gallery as art.
Anything that is left up does have to comply with the rest of the AUP though, which is why incomplete stuff goes to scraps afterwards.
So like, if I livestream today, and post an image that I'm livestreaming, if I have an image or a price guide up at the same time, I'm breaking AUP.
This is fucking retarded. I mean, yeah, I understand the 'don't like ych spam' but you know what? I just unwatched the person uploading every ten goddamn minutes. It's not that hard.
Why not just make a filter like Inkbunny? The beta's pretty much just an inkbunny clone in the works anyway isn't it? I mean, seriously, if I had more of a following over there, or on weasyl, I think I'd just move - but because they're both still new sites, I can't, so I'm going to have to suck it up and just deal with the fact that this update is now pushing away all the great artists to the other sites that we lesser artists actually had a chance at getting exposure on.
Let's face it - I think a mod got pissed at getting spammed with YCH or adopts and just decided this was perfectly okay for their own benefits. I feel this is more of a personal update, than something better for the masses.
Livestreaming notices are generally deleted once the stream is over - you shouldn't punish us by making us post our livestreaming notices in scraps when we have an auction going on at the same time - that's entirely unfair and cruel. I advertise streaming commissions all the damn time - I make well into a full day's paycheck with livestream commissions, but I'm being punished because Dickwad mc Furpants decided to spam the same image six times a day?
Why not just, you know, actually ask the community what they'd like? I mean, yeah, you can't please anyone, but alienating your only source of income for paying for updates, the site, advertising, etc isn't exactly smart.
You're hurting both the watchers and the artists with this update - one because watchers will now lose people to commission because this bullshit will run artists off the site. There's the whole 'why don't you just leave' debate comments already, and other artists have already flat out thrown their hands up and left. No one will pay for ad-space. It's a tiny image at the top of the corner more and more people have disabled. I don't click on ads much, I think out of the entire time I've been here, the only ads I've clicked VOLUNTARILY are 3.
This is a grudge update and if it is permanent, expect the amount of users online at any point and time to drop. Way to screw yourself over guys.
Of course this entire problem would be irrelevant if they had a Streaming on/off feature like Weasyl has. That wouldn't be hard to do at all.
I have a lot of accounts on other furry or otherwise art sites, and frankly...FA has the most traffic because it's pretty much the Furry main hub, online. So if you want to get your name out there, or actually get Commission business, you kinda have no choice but to stay here.
So.Furry doesn't get nearly as much traffic
Neither does Inkbunny, and a lot of people don't want to go there because of the strong influence of cub porn
Weasyl is great, but it's still in Beta/invite-only, so the traffic is practically at a stand still
Nabyn has been forgotten
DA isn't too "furry friendly", and unless you're insanely good, you won't get much recognition, furry art or not
I can't think of too many other alternatives.
Unfortunately there is no easy fix for this. FA won't make the coding/site changes necessary, and folks won't move to places that are better tailored to their needs.
it still makes zero sense and i hope it's scrapped or rewritten again to not be so ridiculous buuuuuuuuut i have my doubts that anything is going to be done, especially this update you're promising in mid-late feb.
Its impossible to police it properly, not only because the rules still make little to no sense, but also because mods do little to enforce rules already, not to mention now that they'll virtually have to stalk people's accounts to ensure copies aren't being posted. I saw someone post a picture of their hairy ballsac and it stayed up for several days. But no, that's nothing compared to someone trying to earn a living, so lets focus on that instead.
The update isn't coming, at least not any faster than the UI :/ The fact that they're greatly crippling people's freedom here with the promise of "an eventual update that'll give you a better option" is vague and irresponsible. A better run site would have put off this update until they had viable solutions for both sides, not just the one that's bawwing louder. Its laziness.
It is being worked on (apparently).
The users are doing what they can within the framework provided. Until we have something better, I'm not going to advocate removal as it would not be reasonable.
I think people are forgetting that people who want to advertise are not the only (and in fact, not even the majority of) users on the site.
the watchers should just NUKE THE DAMN SUBMISSIONS you're just babying them by being all, aww, okay, we'll limit and dictate what artists can advertise because for some reason hitting the delete button is too hard
The site rules have to take all groups of users in to account, so much as reasonably possible. That means not only the artists (who want to advertise) and not only the watchers (who vastly outnumber the artists, and most don't want to see it).
This is a line in the sand. An imperfect line in the sand, but a line in the sand nonetheless.
and how much is staff being lazy or, dare I say, self-entitled. You keep saying you're trying to keep the needs of all groups in mind, but you really haven't considered the artists at all. At all. Sure, maybe one or two artists are fine with it, because they already have over 3000 watchers, but most artists, and even many non-artists that I've seen, think this new rule is way too extreme.
Most websites with large user-bases tend to take weeks or months to decide major changes like this, or have official meetings where they discuss a lot of immediate issues and then resolve them professionally. This sounds like someone just puked it up in a journal because one admin got sick of people complaining to them about something they could click on to delete.
Why are you siding with the group that is merely too lazy to click the delete or nuke button, rather than the side that is going to be legitimately damaged by this change? I'm right up there with everyone else saying flooding is an issue, but this solution is really one-sided and non-sensical. Its really clear that instead of trying to "take all groups of users into account", you've just sided with the one you personally agree with.
The "1 ad at a time in gallery" rule isn't of my making. If I sided with artists, I'd be saying "This is an outrage! Artists should be able to advertise as much as they want!". If I sided with the browsers/watchers I'd be saying "Submissions are for artwork, not advertising. Ban the lot!".
Artists want to eat, and the userbase at large is getting sick of all the ad submissions. Where do you draw the line in a manner that can please everyone? This seems to be more about the front page/browse anyway, since you can still use scraps to advertise as much as you want to your watchers.
What I need is a specification for a better system than what exists, and some code monkeys to implement it.
It hasn't had a legitimate update or improvement in the 4 or so years I've been here, and it seems that hiring new mods to accommodate the incompetent ones has just caused more problems.
I don't think any artist is saying they should be able to advertise as much as they want. As I just said, everyone agrees that flooding is an issue, but limiting it to one at a time per gallery, one ad per auction/YCH, is just ridiculous. It can't be policed, so its pretty obvious that no one thought about this very deeply.
All I'm saying, and I'm sure a lot of people are saying, is limit it reasonably. As many have suggested, limit it to one ad every 24 or 48 hours, or even once every few days. All you're really doing is alienating people, they're going to leave, and without a lot of artists on here, FA will suffer. "Fender" may have suggested that FA isn't an art gallery, but uh, it is. Without artists, what is it then? Not only that, but you're making the admins' jobs more difficult, and we've all seen how hard its been for them to do their jobs already :/
Its really not that hard to find a group of talented coders, if that's really all the site needs to improve. I'm developing a site and found a good team in a few weeks. A huge, already established site like FA, shouldn't have a problem doing the same thing, at the very least.
And as for the Ad space, I actually tried to get a space. The advertisements page says wait 1-3 business days MAX for a reply, and it's been well over 2-3 weeks. I've yet to hear anything. I mean, if it was such a bother that advertising to browse took the place of the paid corner adverts, wouldn't they try harder to respond to people actually wanting to advertise?
I dunno.
But I DO appreciate at least a little bit of room to advertise in my main gallery now. It's better than nothing I guess. :/
There is a gallery for "Recent Artwork", "Recent Writing" and "Recent Music", but none for photos.
I think photos flood the gallery a lot more than auctions, adoptables, YCH and so on do. Especially after a convention.
So it would be nice if there were such a gallery too. And it'd be easier for people who search photos after a con.
A patch to split photos out of "Visual Art" on the front page exists, but at this stage is slated for arrival with the UI refresh. And yes, there is work being done on that. I even saw it once, but sadly I don't have any grainy video to prove it.
/// okay done rant as for anyone who is going to do the 'but y dont u leave' thing . It's because I use this site to get money. End of story . It's not that hard to figure out that there is a good chunk of people on here wanting to buy art.
Also, in regards to the harmful to your advertising.. go viral like so many have with contests, of perks if you crosspost more places.. or Buy an ad. It's unfair to the site, flawed though it may be, to expect them to handle the burden of your uploading of ads 15 times for a single auction, and all the subsequent views, simply because you expect FA to do your advertising for you. If this site were successful on any real changes, I'd suggest they allow "promoted submissions" at a fee, so that there was a separate floating category for just such things, much like etsy.com does.
Contests may not do as much as spamming the front page, but they do -something-. Fursuitsupplies has one presently with crossmarket postings, and they have well over 4000 entries.
Repeating that you don't have money twice as two reasons does not make it suddenly more "relevant". Start with a one month ad; that's less expensive than a 1 year one, and then you can edit and update the banner as needed.
I never said limiting to one was the absolute divine answer, but it is far easier for them to police at the present volume than "three" or "once every 72 hrs" or such. They are having to police by hand -because they have proven unable to code new facets into this site-.
You Are saying they need to. You said contests don't work, crossposting to other sites isn't working.. and you're complaining about not having reuploads. Your watchers already all have seen the original advert; the only thing that changes by uploading more ads, is popping you back up in the front page and the "most recent submissions" radar. Therefore, you are using a facet of FA for reasons other than what it was designed for, in order to serve as your marketing. That is pretty standard definition of using them to do your advertising.
Again, repeating that you're poor doesn't change anything. If they did subscriptions like dA, then you'd complain you can't afford that either.. and honestly? If you like the features on dA more, go to dA to do your sales. End of story.
In order to please the masses, yes, FA needs an overhaul, and if you're optimistic, they have a beta version in the works for just that reason. If you're pessimistic, there haven't been any real changes to the site in a long time, and there are other sites out there for that reason, such as dA, Inkbunny, Weasyl, Nabyn, etc.
Also by any artist posting up commissions are open or anything of the sort they are using it as an ad so I guess most artists are guilty of this whoops.
Anyway not here to debate it's to damn early for stupid shit :I I was stating what i felt nothing more if you want to debate go to the other comments there are plenty of the to pick threw :,D go mr debater cause I'm giving no fucks right now asdgfdg
bAN
If you have good reason to believe that any of the new (or old) staff are not acting in accordance with the rules and Admin Code of Conduct, please follow the reporting procedure mentioned here and supply supporting documentation. Posting generalised complaints on journals won't get anything fixed - we need specifics.
On the subject of moves and deletions:
Moving a submission doesn't automatically generate any sort of notification, a note must be manually sent by the staff member doing it.
Removing a submission generates a note by default, but in the case of a large amount of removals we may elect to disable such notifications and send a single note instead. This is simply to reduce the amount of notes the user gets. I'll generally do this if I'm removing more than about 5 submissions in one go, just so their Inbox isn't flooded.
On the subject of secondary accounts:
This is explicitly allowed for the purposes of privacy or "separating work and play", so to speak. In my case I do administrative duties with my primary account because I consider it important for relations and accountability. That, and I care more about doing the job properly than I do about being liked.
I was clearly told by admins that screenshots are not allowed so what proof can we give if a admin is even abusing their power and how can we even know who is moving/deleting/suspending/banning people on here?
Also I have seen countless of journals how this ruling and some others are not written and explained so clearly. Right now half of us are not agreeing on whats going on here.
In the case of deleted submissions, they're logged by the system regardless of whether a note is sent to the user.
If you have a specific issue it may be best to contact me directly about it - IRC would be best for this since it can be discussed in real time.
Like seriously its one thing if someone has thousands of watchers and spams all the time (though they should be able to advertise more than once too) but what about people who have like 17 followers and have absolutely no exposure? You think they'll be able to make enough to pay their bills or buy things they want?
Like heck what I've sold was from advertising, and I always deleted things that were multiposted after, and said that it would be deleted on the submission.
I've reposted things from the course of like days to weeks to months and once I did it every some-length-of-mins for a short time just to get it noticed, because traffic was fast, but I gave it waiting time and took it easy because I don't want to upset people by spamming?
However guess what? When I did that NOBODY complained to me about spamming, but I did get some people commissioning me?
Also I guess I'm the only one who has this issue but why only one price sheet? What if you make one that is already larger than the 1280x1280 but come up with something new and tiny or temporary?
I highly doubt anyone has like 50 price sheets and people don't usually have a price sheet for just sketches, or just lineart, or just whatever?
I dunno I just think this rule is kind of pathetic because I see enough people on this site with money problems and you aren't helping. The only thing being helped is the people who whine about seeing the same image a few times for a short while because they can't just look at something else.
Like seriously if you don't like it why can't you just find something else you like instead?? That's what the search button is for! (or heck, even browse!)
You can post as many submissions as you like that are either:
a. Not for sale (such as showing previously sold ones as examples of your work)
b. In scraps.
Mehh, I'm not gonna use FA like before...
For instance, you could do a sheet, with the submission description stating that each one includes a reference sheet and link to examples.
There's also journals. Scraps. Off-site image hosting.
Plenty of ways to minimise the number of submissions used for this sort of thing.
And now if I want to submit a new adoptable, I would have to move all the unsold ones to my scraps too and instead just post a link in a journal or such?
Hell no. The chances of the design selling when people can see it as soon as they open my page are higher than when I can only offer a link that they would have to click in the first place, instead of just seeing the design right away.
And I don't even flood or resubmit my adoptables. unless they've been sitting there unsold for months.
If I resubmit something after 5 months, that can hardly be considered flooding.
All in all, it seems like this rule only caters to the people who just don't like adoptables and auctions.
So when will there be a rule that caters to the people who don't like seeing untagged porn?
I'm sure it'd be just as annoying if someone posted a bunch of not-for-sale pieces all on the same 'base' each as their own submission.
I don't see why only for-profit submissions are being targeted with these rules. If FA doesn't want people making a profit on their site, they
need to just say that and ban it entirely, so artists trying to earn a living can stop wasting their time and go somewhere else.
But this just seems very back-handed.
otherwise they would have issues with advertising free things, like raffles, streams, request submissions.
THANK YOU FOR MAKING THIS CLEAR TO US
There simply isn't a good solution that will please everyone whilst ads are submissions.
:I if i see multiple ads show up, i'll click one, check it out; not interested, nuke the fuckers.
OH MY GOD THIS IS SO HARD. FA needs to pull their heads out of their asses and fix the coding's bullshit problems.
make a journal asking FOR SKILLED HTML/CODING MEMBERS OF THE COMMUNITY woooooowww.
then work from there.
It's not right to penalize an artist just because they are drawing something a particular viewer doesn't care for. There are always going to be people pleased with what's posted and not so pleased. Problems crop up when those that don't want to look decide to find a way to make it go away for good. Bit selfish really. This entire site and they can't look past a few submissions they don't like and check out what they do? GET THESE PICS I CAN'T AFFORD OUT OF MY FA, HOW DARE SOMEONE BUY THESE? I honestly feel the same way about the adoptables, too. They are all in the same pose sure, but people aren't purchasing that particular picture of that character, they are purchasing that particular design and they do sell well enough, clearly.
Does this argument sound familiar to you?
Some asshole came onto my profile and started bitching that my prices were TOO HIGH! How can I compete when there are people selling art for $5. Why don't you just go to them if you want $5 art? MY CONTENT ISN'T FREE, RESPECT THE CONTENT PROVIDERS.
Because the asshole this argument is geared towards is the made of the same robe as some artists and users are making. EXCEPT THE CONTENT THEY USE TO PROVIDE THEIR SERVICE THROUGH IS TOTALLY FREE. What kind of hellish double standard is that?
So what if you are a loyal user and you've been doing business a specific way for 5 years, 2 years, 6 months? How you chose to do business was never a gaurantee by the site staff and they have 0 obligations to cater to the whims of even the majority of their users, as is obvious because the bitchers still hang around because they know that, dispite their complains, it's a good trade-off since there is such a huge user base. If you leave, so what? Less they have to store on their severs, which means less they are paying for you to operate your business here FOR FREE.
Seriously, this is an entitlement issue, nothing more. If you want to advertise and have your product seen for longer than 10 seconds on the front page, the site DOES offer that service in the form of ad space. This is quite fair since the site is funded through ads and donations. And it's also QUITE CHEAP. Why should FA run any differently than any other social networking site, like Facebook or Twitter? If you want more people to see your crap, you play by the rules to get it done or you pay for the extra service, and if you don't like it, there's always MySpace (Furbid, Sofurry etc). Which basically play be the very same rules. If you want more exposure, you do it within their arbitrary set of rules, or you pay for the privilege to operate above typical capacity (via ads or banning.) This is much less of an investment risk than doing business in the public via billboards, cons and storefronts. And if you go out of business here, you don't still have to pay your lease or the con space.
So why the double standard, fellow artists? Why are you entitled to set your arbitrary work rules and regulations and prices, but the site owners are bastards for doing it?
Making the assumption that "Staff knows best" is what screws a lot of sites over in the best, its user-feedback that builds a community
and helps it improve. Just because you know nothing about web design or social interaction, doesn't mean the same goes for everyone else.
Do you actually read all these plights and commentary and take them to heart? Or are we going to have more unnecessary updates? Failed promises? And such....
I personally don't care for this matter as I don't make a living. But just someone concerned with admin..."power".
I've gave up on thinking this sites gonna improve.
In all honesty they need to work on the CODING first and then get to updates. Whats the point of running a website that constantly has problems if the coding is the problem? It really wouldn't be hard to just add a couple new options =/
I have 5 words for the admins.
SITE
WIDE
POLL
VOTING
SYSTEM
That way we can SEE what is really being voted on and that way there will be more solid proof of who's voice is really making a difference. Frankly this new AUP rule pisses me off but I am not drawing anymore but now I have to watch everyone bitch about it.
Why don't we also get a feature that lets us customize how we watch people? Like on dA you can choose if you even want to see their submissions or journals. I dunno just seems like there is alot of things that can be done but are not for whatever reason.
Unfortunately, its a lot easier to make a simple rule than to do anything to update this archaic site.
The staff is just lazy.
who knows how hard it'd be for them to create a survey :/
I could find a tutorial on google and improve this site more than the staff is :/
Its really sad, I'm already creating a new alternative to a site with similar stupid issues/poorly managed staff.
HOW MANY MUST I MAKE
but inb4 the mods just ignore the results
It could be separated into Auctions, Commission guides, etc that you could submit to. That way, it's one-stop shopping. There ARE people out here who rely on YCHs for income. They rely on them to pay the bills. I know several people that this affects very badly; they could lose their homes because YCHs are their only source of income because they don't GET a lot of exposure. I don't have that many watchers, and even fewer that buy my art when I post them. I barely get by on my paycheck; YCHs are how I scrape together extra money so I can pay off my student loans.
Basically, this is hurting a lot of people.
Honestly, get on shit. I'm planning on designing a [separate] YCH site for people on here if things don't change.
I was actually considering making a site as well, though for adoptables, since they tend to get the shaft on all art sites.
People clearly don't notice how much the economy is fucked right now, so spitting at artists and suggesting they're just lazy or that
they should get 'real' jobs is about as stupid as this AUP change.
If you do decide to develop a new site, I'd love to collaborate on it with you.
I have to agree with artists that this is a stupid rule.. I do believe people should simply just nuke the stuff they dont wanna see.. super easy.. the artist should be allowed to have multiple differnt auctions running for the simple reason THEY LIVE OFF THE MONEY... if it was your job you would be yep this rule is BS. for the people who hate seeing all the ych and adopt submissions unwatch the artist simple...
Admins.. I understand you want to make everyone happy however.. Dont cave to the people who bitch all the time.. You know some things that listened to the whiners and no longer are around. SOE's star wars galaxies. They had 250k customers before the combat upgrade why cause people bitched and bitched and it was a small percentage instead of saying fuck you this is how we are running the game they wouldnt have lost 1/2 the customers and had to consolidate their servers.. also if they told George Lucas to shut the hell up and not do the NGE they would have still managed to keep a large portion of what they had left. nope all gone... all fucked up.. thats what happens when you listen to the small group of whiners...
just let artists do what they need to do to make a living..
People who browse the front page.. just refresh the page or stop watching artists.. easy as that..
also RAWR.. ok i am done ranting
This all said, I agree with many others. Many are being punished for the actions of a few.
Also, could we get a 'Don't notify the watchers' option on posting? I don't know how many times I've wanted that here.
I can get screwed several times here for FREE~
In short admins, you derped, you dun derped bad...
I would say more, but let's try to avoid redundancy, the admins hate that, after all...
Let's mustard up some courage and relish the moment, we got a lot of ketchup to do, as cheesy as it sounds, it's the bread and butter of this, so glad we could meat for this, i think i fell in love at first bite~
~CD
personally, i don't think i have a problem with ych auctions, so long as the same image doesn't get repetitively advertised, which is what i thought fa were aiming to cut back on. i'm assuming the dislike of them is down to ych auctions being considered a work in progress image that should technically belong in scraps(?). if so, i would have thought that so long as there weren't numerous uploads of the same image being posted in the main gallery, that it would be okay to allow for wips in the main gallery (even if that only applied to the works current state). if fa and it's users really think the amount (or whatever the issue is) of ych auctions and similar are a problem, i would have thought that a less drastic compromise could be reached, even if it's only a temporarily measure before fa find a way of organising these sorts of things better (not that i think what's been proposed is wholly unreasonable, i thought it was okay, but going from unlimited to one is a big change, and alot of artists seem very unhappy). ...i don't know if i'm even really saying anything here, but i'll post anyway...
If you were to have a standard commission info submission as well as a YCH auction at the same time?
Or two completely separate YCH auctions is now an offense?
Having two adoptables for sale at the same time?
Or is repeatedly posting the same thing now an offense?
Honestly I don't notice it being too much of a problem because I don't watch people who make YCH or adoptables and I don't ever really visit the front page anyway because the watching the front page isn't the best way to find a good artist - I look at other people's fave galleries to find good artwork and good artists.
Creating sub-categories on the front page strictly for YCH/adoptables/auctions seems like the best solution - and perhaps one for people to post commission ads/requests? - of course those two sub-categories would still be open to abuse so would still need some kind of regulation to stop 'spamming' - maybe dedicated moderators for those sub-categories could better manage that kind of thing.
I guess you need to treat the site as having two components - one component being the artists who are here purely to generate 'art for art's sake' and the other component more interested in trying to make a living from their art. I think you need to find a way of separating those two components and realise that you need to manage them each in different ways because trying to come up with one AUP to deal with everybody's complaints and needs isn't going to make anyone happy - as the amount of complaints on this page evidences.
I'm not happy about this. I can manage with this update, but I am by no means happy with it. It limits artists when they don't need to be limited, and completely misses the point. I don't see how this is meeting us in the middle.
If it were me, which I understand it isn't, I would just put a cap on the number of advertising submissions a day and leave it at that. This policy seems much more destructive than just simply limiting the amount of uploads of advertising a day.
I had a plan to put out some YCH commissions, but I'm not too sure now if I will upload them to this site, since I have to limit them to one in the main gallery at a time. So if I had multiple ideas, well, I'm gonna have to wait. Which, in my opinion, is ridiculous.
From what I've seen, most artists who need the money know how to not spam with their advertising. They need the money, so they're going to be careful not to piss off anyone. So really, you're punishing a whole fuckton of people for the mistakes of the few.
Also, I don't understand why people seem to think that YCH, auctions, and adoptables seem to qualify as 'selling out', 'low quality', or other such nonsense. I know quite a few people who put a lot of effort into their work, and happen to want to make a profit off of that hard work. God forbid. Apparently there's a few people who think that as soon as you try to make money off your work, you're no longer an artist.
Still what's wrong with people why watch artist because they like their work.. but god forbid those artists from trying to stay alive?
Honestly, making a living off of FA probably isn't the wisest idea. My last roommates did this too (and still are) and while I understand it's hard to find jobs right now, relying on someone else's service that could go down or change at any time for all of your money seems a bit short sighted.
Total blasphemy in my opinion. This new AUP looks like it'll be the downfall of both the site as well as several artists who can only survive on their auctions/adoptables due to the terrible economical situation and the near impossible chances of a job we're all currently facing.
But no matter what, only ONE advertising submission, of any kind, of any subject at any time.
I read how there is the plan for a "Sale" section to arrive not that far in the future(atleast claimed. who knows how long it will take actually >_>)
So isn't this AUP update nothing more then a temporary "fix" that is only cause some hostility from people that rely on Ad-subbmission to earn a bit or remember people of stuff??
I dont think this is a smart move. First get that "Sale-section" complete and THEN start modifying the AUP. :/
i can't help but feel like FA keeps getting its priorities messed up. >_>
Sorry, totes n00bing it up in here :'I
Nuff' said.
This isn't about spamming the same image over and over.
They are limiting artists to have any image that has any advertisement to their work to one and a price guide.
Not every artist even posts the same image when announcing streams/things like that.
And honestly we don't tell you what you can and can't post when we dislike it, so why should you be able to tell us how we present our work.
You may color like a fucking three year old but we aren't complaining that this bad quality art needs to be removed before our brain cells deplete.
We aren't bitching about the amount of cock or tits or dogs and dragons in your galleries, so why limit artists advertising. ESPECIALLY FOR COMMISSIONS. How do you expect us to get new watchers.
Honestly this is a dick move, and it's shit this is the only place we really have.
If one artist spams an image 500 times, why should all the artist be penalized for it.
That's pretty much saying, oh look someone fucks in a fursuit, all furries are fucking disgusting and are going to hell.
You guys aren't seeing the real issue by all the words and whining covering it up. Look at the situation, not what someones telling you.
I mean pretty much Fa's gotten no where, and they're still speaking the same stuff, why talk about new updates when we haven't even gotten the ones promised 4 years ago.
Open your eyes guys. This is just harmful to the site.
So they're giving us a policy, policing our images, and going move/delete crazy.
What happened to being able to work on what we wanted, to draw what we liked, to work for our clients/with our commissioners to create great art.
This isn't about stupid fucking auctions, they haven't said "auctions are bad, mkay." There saying showcasing the submission advertising the art is. They don't care, as long as its in scraps where no one new can see. We don't complain about your choice in porn, or how it covers the front page, why make a big deal about our work. Our way of making a living.
This is my 'full' opinion on this..after taking the time to soak all the information in, and i'd rather say it then sit here, when there are many voices against this as well. I don't care for these rules, but i don't really have a choice. Pretty much, i know thats the same for almost everyone out there that are in disagreement whit how this is going to have an effect on artists. We've been asking for a poll for a site 'majority' vote' for a few years now, and as a community, on both sides of the argument thats gone unheard, along with a lot of other things, but thats another topic..
FA started off for me as an amazing community, and honestly i enjoyed working for and with the users, but if the users and admins tell us what we can and can't have in the galleries they've supplied us to begin with, without all the bull shit and having to conform to please people... Then i don't really want to post my art here.
As an artist, you should be able to be creative how you want, on what ever subject you like, without someone telling you it's wrong to do.
Art is a form of expression, not a cheap buck, others just choose different ways of showing it. Show casing it. Sharing it and jesus everyone mass produces ads. Why do you think the ad space went from two to four. Why do you think there are logos on everything.
I just see no sense in it and if the community is really this upset with how ANY artist portrays their work, well they can get off the fucking high horse, it's their art. The community doesn't HAVE to like it. Thats why they have their own gallery, the choice to watch and unwatch artists. choices to add and remove favorites. Thats why there are artists out there that draw for people.
This is an art site. For commissioners, and artist, for fursuiters, furries who just post art or follow others.
If that's not the real definition of FA well then, what the fuck is it. A place to fap?
Seriously.. there's no meeting in the middle with this. You want less spam on the site, take off the fucking front page and just have the banner with the damn enter button to log in as a user or guest.
Problem. Solved.
Or you know. Just don't click and move one. Hell thats why you have the choice of select and delete.
As much as i'd like to believe in these updates and this new UI, i can't. And as much as i try to be optimistic in this, i just don't see a way through this mess. With all these "updates" and "incoming no ETA updates" i really just feel like posting "put up or shut up" a lot of the times, but i don't because i genuinely have hope that this site can stop being an ass-hat and just enjoy the damn art they like, and ignore the shit they don't. It's the same crap as always it's just a different subject.
I just wish there was a default button.. So we could just go back to the older version of the site, when it was a lot less dramatic, and more of an enjoyable place to be.
How the hell is a commissioning artist going to give their ads out if no one doesn't even know it's uploaded...
Especially to the artists that are just starting out, let alone what if they don't have the money to put their ads on the front page of FA
Hello FA?
You rely on us for your income, we rely on you for advertising for our income.
Limiting us and it will limit FA
I can see this go down fast...
This!
I mean really do they notunderstand. Right now the income im making on FA is very small but its getting me enough where working at Kroger and hre is barely paying my moms 'ren and bills' she puts on me where i wont be homeless. Right now trying to earn enough to get some medicine from the doctor. ut it seems not allowed to advertise at all ever beause its a bad things. So bye all fellow FA ill be homless by march or dead from infection because no one will see my sad excuse of art and commission me or bid on any auctions or anything.
o many people make this their ull time job. But now your not even like allowed to post streaming adertisments or anything. People will start blaming you FA for having no money for bills because they made this their fulltime jobs and now your ruining it.
Noxidium explains it better than I could.
This just shows poor professionalism and going around fixing the main issue here...