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Accountability
11 years ago
DISCLAIMER: Just in case anybody else misconstrues this as a journal condoning abuse, sexual or otherwise, this is about responding to crimes with the justice system and not mobs. I know not everybody can deal with people who aren't as angry as they are about specific issues or incidents, but there aren't enough hours in the day to be upset to the point of rage by every horrible incident one hears about. I personally don't want to go out of my way to attack anybody, it takes more energy than I have. I will respond in kind, however, if you throw abuse at me.
Another shitstorm eh? XP That Project Phoenix journal is certainly nothing new, in terms of the crazy amount of anger in the comments thread, but it seems like a decent enough opportunity to type this shit out. I'm specifically talking about social justice efforts on the internet, crowds of angry people pushing to punish people they see as proverbial monsters or colossal shitheads. Presumably the goal of hurling abuse at those who have been targeted is to create an environment of accountability where the legal justice system has failed. At least that's what it seems to be. Doesn't work that way in practice.
It seems to me that what these attempts at justice end up doing, in reality, is to fuel rage based on misinformation and the complete exclusion of measured debate or discussion. To take a classic example, the Danish Islamic cartoons, a couple of motivated individuals deliberately stirred up shit with the cartoons and some added, far more offensive, photographs. What followed was a violent reaction that far, far outweighed whatever damage the images did in the first place. Instead of responding to offensive material with discussion, buildings were burned, people were murdered and general public disorder resulted. Absolutely beyond fucking crazy. What stands out to me is that those who were offended and caused this destruction were not held accountable for their actions, they were instead sympathised with. Well, it wouldn't have happened if other people didn't offend them, right? This is the precise opposite of accountability performed under the guise of enforcing accountability upon others. It is the ultimate in irony.
In this particular case, the behaviour of Zaush, it is obviously not as bad as the example I gave above, but the elements are still there. I haven't seen the complete story from people directly involved, I've just seen a log of some creepy chat. Either way, I have no right to judge anyone involved in it, so I wont, because I'm not involved. The central issue here, for me, is that rape accusations are flying all over the place from people who were never personally involved. Accusing someone of a crime is a serious matter, all the more serious when it is something as hideous as rape, yet people are perfectly comfortable to make such damning accusations whether they have proof or not. In addition to this, they are not accountable for the accusations they make.
When droves of people are all chanting the same mantra, whether it be true or false, nobody in that mass of shrieking ire has to answer for the things they say. They will never be singled out and attacked or have to go to court over it. They are shielded, invulnerable, guarded by the collective. This is not honesty, it is not justice, it is not accountability. I know we don't have a perfect justice system, by any means, but it's a damned sight better than grabbing the flaming torches and metaphorically marching towards violence and rage. You never get justice that way, you just get a shared experience of righteous indignation followed by damage to someone else. Even if the person being targeted is guilty, the approach of a mob does not result in fair punishment or reasonable behaviour in the slightest. These things spiral out of control and eventually people can barely remember what the fuck it was about in the first place.
A case that comes to mind is Lupine Assassin, a guy still banned from FA, who was targeted by thousands of furries as a prime example of a human piece of shit. Whatever mistakes he made he paid a price far in excess of the things he did. Effectively mismanaging finances and being a complete psychological wreck turned him into wanker of the year. As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most shameful, awful things this fandom has ever done. I hope I never see that level of abuse repeated. Furs who have molested children have had less shit thrown at them than Lupine Assassin did, lol. Does this not put things in perspective? Does this not remind you that your words can and will hurt someone else? Don't act like heeding insults is only for the weak, when a lot of people are throwing abuse your way, you WILL be affected by it, provided you're not a complete sociopath.
By gathering in huge groups and leveling abuse at individuals you are removing accountability from yourself and basking in the euphoric waves of your own self-righteousness. It is pure wickedness and has nothing to do with protecting the innocent or doing good. It is you wanting to take an opportunity to just let off steam without consequences. Don't do it, it's fucking terrible.
EDIT: Since it has been brought to my attention that I may be coming across as completely dismissive of people's complaints about the site staff and Zaush's conduct, I'm adding this little edit here. People making comments that flippantly dismiss complaints against Zaush or the site staff are doing nothing but fuelling the fire and making things worse. All allegations of sexual assault deserve to be taken very seriously. It's extremely difficult to maintain a level head on a topic as serious as rape and sexual abuse; I have basically never seen a public discussion of the topic online that didn't turn into a shit-slinging match of black and white, for or against. Either you want all abusers and alleged abusers destroyed or you're in favour of rape. I've personally been labelled as an enabler of rapists in the past because of how I present the things I say. Which is fucking nonsense, I just want to add.
I think people criticizing this website have a lot of legitimate points to bring to the table, I think people on all sides have something important and meaningful to say, but it gets lost in the abuse, in the name-calling, judgement and labeling of others. This is unfortunate. As for my personal stance on things like this, I don't want to get caught up in hatred, I don't want to fuck up anyone elses life, so I try my utmost to remain level-headed and open to arguments different from my own. I don't always manage the latter but nobody's perfect, lol. Since I don't want to fight with anybody I wont be giving out my opinion on who is right or wrong in this argument; I honestly don't need the stress. Either way, I hope something constructive develops from this mess, I truly do.
Another shitstorm eh? XP That Project Phoenix journal is certainly nothing new, in terms of the crazy amount of anger in the comments thread, but it seems like a decent enough opportunity to type this shit out. I'm specifically talking about social justice efforts on the internet, crowds of angry people pushing to punish people they see as proverbial monsters or colossal shitheads. Presumably the goal of hurling abuse at those who have been targeted is to create an environment of accountability where the legal justice system has failed. At least that's what it seems to be. Doesn't work that way in practice.
It seems to me that what these attempts at justice end up doing, in reality, is to fuel rage based on misinformation and the complete exclusion of measured debate or discussion. To take a classic example, the Danish Islamic cartoons, a couple of motivated individuals deliberately stirred up shit with the cartoons and some added, far more offensive, photographs. What followed was a violent reaction that far, far outweighed whatever damage the images did in the first place. Instead of responding to offensive material with discussion, buildings were burned, people were murdered and general public disorder resulted. Absolutely beyond fucking crazy. What stands out to me is that those who were offended and caused this destruction were not held accountable for their actions, they were instead sympathised with. Well, it wouldn't have happened if other people didn't offend them, right? This is the precise opposite of accountability performed under the guise of enforcing accountability upon others. It is the ultimate in irony.
In this particular case, the behaviour of Zaush, it is obviously not as bad as the example I gave above, but the elements are still there. I haven't seen the complete story from people directly involved, I've just seen a log of some creepy chat. Either way, I have no right to judge anyone involved in it, so I wont, because I'm not involved. The central issue here, for me, is that rape accusations are flying all over the place from people who were never personally involved. Accusing someone of a crime is a serious matter, all the more serious when it is something as hideous as rape, yet people are perfectly comfortable to make such damning accusations whether they have proof or not. In addition to this, they are not accountable for the accusations they make.
When droves of people are all chanting the same mantra, whether it be true or false, nobody in that mass of shrieking ire has to answer for the things they say. They will never be singled out and attacked or have to go to court over it. They are shielded, invulnerable, guarded by the collective. This is not honesty, it is not justice, it is not accountability. I know we don't have a perfect justice system, by any means, but it's a damned sight better than grabbing the flaming torches and metaphorically marching towards violence and rage. You never get justice that way, you just get a shared experience of righteous indignation followed by damage to someone else. Even if the person being targeted is guilty, the approach of a mob does not result in fair punishment or reasonable behaviour in the slightest. These things spiral out of control and eventually people can barely remember what the fuck it was about in the first place.
A case that comes to mind is Lupine Assassin, a guy still banned from FA, who was targeted by thousands of furries as a prime example of a human piece of shit. Whatever mistakes he made he paid a price far in excess of the things he did. Effectively mismanaging finances and being a complete psychological wreck turned him into wanker of the year. As far as I'm concerned it's one of the most shameful, awful things this fandom has ever done. I hope I never see that level of abuse repeated. Furs who have molested children have had less shit thrown at them than Lupine Assassin did, lol. Does this not put things in perspective? Does this not remind you that your words can and will hurt someone else? Don't act like heeding insults is only for the weak, when a lot of people are throwing abuse your way, you WILL be affected by it, provided you're not a complete sociopath.
By gathering in huge groups and leveling abuse at individuals you are removing accountability from yourself and basking in the euphoric waves of your own self-righteousness. It is pure wickedness and has nothing to do with protecting the innocent or doing good. It is you wanting to take an opportunity to just let off steam without consequences. Don't do it, it's fucking terrible.
EDIT: Since it has been brought to my attention that I may be coming across as completely dismissive of people's complaints about the site staff and Zaush's conduct, I'm adding this little edit here. People making comments that flippantly dismiss complaints against Zaush or the site staff are doing nothing but fuelling the fire and making things worse. All allegations of sexual assault deserve to be taken very seriously. It's extremely difficult to maintain a level head on a topic as serious as rape and sexual abuse; I have basically never seen a public discussion of the topic online that didn't turn into a shit-slinging match of black and white, for or against. Either you want all abusers and alleged abusers destroyed or you're in favour of rape. I've personally been labelled as an enabler of rapists in the past because of how I present the things I say. Which is fucking nonsense, I just want to add.
I think people criticizing this website have a lot of legitimate points to bring to the table, I think people on all sides have something important and meaningful to say, but it gets lost in the abuse, in the name-calling, judgement and labeling of others. This is unfortunate. As for my personal stance on things like this, I don't want to get caught up in hatred, I don't want to fuck up anyone elses life, so I try my utmost to remain level-headed and open to arguments different from my own. I don't always manage the latter but nobody's perfect, lol. Since I don't want to fight with anybody I wont be giving out my opinion on who is right or wrong in this argument; I honestly don't need the stress. Either way, I hope something constructive develops from this mess, I truly do.
You are all being doody-heads.
Dray doesn't know how to do TL;DR. =P
He also drove off the people on the team already.
And this journal perfectly explains the real issue at hand whenever there's drama stirred up on the internet.
Thank you.
Unfortunately, the internet hearsay mill can amplify that sensible, communal self-protective behavior into the "mass of shrieking ire" that you've described.
If there are women on FA that know from personal experience and 2nd hand that Zaush ignores social boundaries, should they feel unsafe if he is elevated to a status in which he has access to personal site data and communications? Can Dragoneer personally vouch for Zaush? Are they friends and is that a problem? This is where it gets really sticky.
Nobody is perfect, nobody is always right and nobody is any better than anyone else. This self righteousness is what causes the violence. People think they can do no wrong and that they're always the victim but they aren't. People just need to remember that we're all just human. We are bound to make mistakes and whether those mistakes are serious or not, doesn't give anyone else the right to judge anyone for their actions because they're no more perfect than anyone else.
I know you're largely against religion but you have to admit, there is no better way to describe this than "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone." Nobody is innocent, therefore nobody has any right to judge anyone for their mistakes or imperfections. Granted, some should be locked up in prison, like murderers and rapists but those that commit less serious offenses like offending someone on the internet should just be ignored.
I'm all for not slinging severe accusations at people when possessing no evidence at all - BUT - Turning a blind eye and ignoring anyone who says they have been raped with the excuse "people are all imperfect" is a total vile disgrace. Imagine if said accusations were ever found to be true and people had been ignoring and shaming the victim. Also if someone has been accused of something they are not a scapegoat, granted some situations they may well be but...scapegoat for what exactly? It's not like everyone is running around raping people so people decide to blame one guy for everything. What I feel to be implied in " If a bear kills my best friend and I shoot that bear and kill it, my friend is still dead. Killing that bear will not bring him back nor make it any more right than it was to begin with. People are far too eager to find a scapegoat when they need to realize that the best thing to do is turn the other cheek." is basically "you should be able to commit a crime and get away with it, consequence free. As being judged and punished for being a criminal is hypocritical and we should just ignore it as if we don't it will cause a fuss.". Of course nobody is perfect but I'm pretty damn sure anyone has a right to judge someone who commits such an evil crime. In my eyes at least, there is a difference between being an average imperfect person and being a wicked person who commits horrible crimes against other people.
I agree there is no need for all of the vast amounts of people to jump on the hate bandwagon. Which is exactly what the vast majority of them are doing whether it is for popularity, to fit in or just to vent their hatred on some random figure but people should not ignore the fact accusations are potentially factual. Saying that they aren't true and dimissing anyone who says otherwise with no evidence is as bad as being vehemently convinced they are and hurling abuse at the said perpetrator.
But I think the greater reason why numerous people are leaving is how the situation is being handled on a whole. What I've observed is a series of situations where someone with more skill was let go for someone who was a better friend, regardless of comparative skill levels. I understand that most recently, a coder was dropped because he was devoting more energy to his real-world issues than the site, and Zaush was placed instead.
I think folks would normally would not be so concerned, save for the situation everything was handled in, where insults were slung around both toward the coder who was let go and toward Zaush, irrelevant to the accusations of crime. It's this pattern of mismanaged behavior that I think is what's causing people to leave. They've started to feel that it is the same behavior day-in and day-out, from what I've been told.
I joined Weasyl recently in order to check it out, and I like a lot of what I see there in terms of interface. The notifications aren't great, and the collections system has good promise but is unclear on which direction it is to be used, IE artist offers to others, or others offer to artist? If FA implemented similar features in terms of the collections, IE sharing with followers but giving an artist attribution directly, that'd be pretty rad. More categories? Sure! Honestly I think the entire DB structure needs to be recreated, taken offline planned with exact reasoning as to what's up, and with thorough transparency.
And I think that transparency might give people more incentive to stay. It kept a lot of people happy with the Hexels project from KickStarter, which took over a year to deliver but because the founder updated every single week what was going on, people were happy! It was great! And the final product is awesome, and makes playing Catan a lot better than anything before, so much so that Mayfair Games, publisher of Catan in the US, has officially endorsed the product.
I agree completely, once again, with what you stated above. Accusations, baseless arguments.. it's nothing but a festival of shouting angrily. It addresses nothing and fixes nothing. But humans seem to enjoy getting riled up in a group, regardless of the poor outcome. Maybe in-time people will calm down, and I hope they do soon with all of this mess too.
Keep up your awesome art dude. :3
I'm sitting back and waiting on this. If the site stays up long enough for us to watch how all this pans out, let us save all our stuff, and then make a decision, which it obviously will, then it's okay for now and nobody need panic at the moment. I just don't want shit to get worse and for the damage to the majority of FA to have already been done.
Though anything is possible, FA has never done anything wrong to me, nor to friends that I have. They've actually gone out of their way a few times to assist me in things. Because of this, I'd want absolute proof before I ever jumped on someone's leave FA bandwagon. I think most anyone who has had problems with FA, did something to warrant it. People get short suspensions all the time when they violate the AUP, but it's somehow always the fault of an admin, Dragoneer, or FA in general, when it happens. Few people ever take ownership of their own mistakes. Then, on top of that, so hold a grudge for year after, even though they were the cause of their own issues. They refuse to be held accountable for their own actions, and they don't respect authority. So, FA is bad and unfair, and they're innocent little angel-victims. It seems as if more and more people are turning like this. It isn't just here either. I see it on plenty of other sites. People push and break the rules, and refuse to be responsible, then the attack the sites they us at every chance. I think that is the most likely root of this current drama - butthurt self-centered furs who want to get even, taking advantage of a new situation.
I suggest their lives are too boring. Like it or not (most wont admit it), they're using this as a form of entertainment. It's like watching nascar for car wrecks, and it's fucking disturbing.
I've also done some thinking. Alot of people throwing those words, weren't involved; so they don't know what actually happened. And so if only a few know about it, and as the mass doesn't. Throwing accusations and drama because they don't know the full story. Very bad indeed.
A bunch of hypocrites and bullies if you ask me. No real desire for justice, it's all about the love of drama.
Hypocrites and bullies. Agreed.
It is mob mentality, and mob mentality has the I.Q. of a 5 year old. People want to "feel important" or "let off steam" in any way they can and will often ride others coattails, or live vicariously through others lives or issues to make their mundane existence less mundane for a short while. Just look at the Americans and English with their obsessions over sports players and movie stars and criminals, it all seems more exciting than the monotony of their everyday lives. Just a bunch of sheeple.
That explains a lot of people discussing this right now. For worse or... For worse.
It's not that people who do wrong should be protected and coddled, it's that if anyone is qualified to deal with an issue it isn't masses of people so angry that they can't think straight.
Thank you for keeping a cool head in this issue, and for allowing other users to fill in the gaps that you did not want to point out. By that, I mean having others find out and read on it for themselves, as I did.
I personally believe that we, as humans, should learn as much as we can about a heated topic like this one before making accusatory comments and pointing fingers at others.
Congratulations on keeping level in this maelstrom, Roarey, and I hope that you stay that way.
I read your entire post and while there is nothing that I can point to that I can say I disagree with, I do feel that You aren't not holding FA administration accountable for their Handling of similar situations in which they would not only permit this type of fallout they would encourage it.
Had this user been any other user with no notoriety whatsoever on FA
then you would have seen a different reaction from the staff, more than likely a Perma-ban.
unfortunately the people who NEED to read it likely won't ...
ok thanks for explaining that your focal point wasn't the entire microcosm in a nutshell
but rather the most hideous aspect, the mindnumbing snow-ball of misinformation and
and bemoaning that is this mob.
However you MUST admit, FA admin brought it on themselves by planting the seeds.
its MORE than appropriate to have this happen to them, the beast they've constructed
turned on its master.
The timing of your Addressing of crowd-ignorance however is to your disadvantage because
it APPEARS as though you are defending FA admin. BUT again i KNOW that THIS needs to
be a discussion in the Fandom. We need to talk about blindly believing BS we read on the
internet and blindly getting behind a lynch mob of feigned fear and outrage. instead of
discussing these issues candidly.
its Frustrating i agree. but you should add to your preface-statement
(you prefaced it saying you're not defending sexual misconduct) to the effect of:
you are NOT defending FA ADMIN, but wish to focus on a consistently worsening
social interaction of the fandom... the MOB-MENTALITY.
its SO hard to find a completely objective view point on this matter, everyone has an opinion.
yours happens to be the admin could have handled this better.
while you turn a blind eye to the past... where the Administration not only bans people,
but champion those that harass and badger those banned users. all of the paranoia and
fear being spread throughout the fandom, with FA Admin not only in-the-midst but standing
right in the center. THEY are guilty of funneling the mob mentality through the fandom to
trample many different accused persons.
and now when they have befallen their own set up, you feel it not appropriate, the culture they
helped to create, those seeds they planted, is out of their hands when it comes back on them?
you just don't see it, thats the problem, you fail to acknowledge the truth of what is
actually going on... if you were to dig deeper there are copious examples of users
targeted by FA smear campaigns.
i want to define where i stand on this issue:
1 - its irrelivant who codes the site, their past or what ever.
2 - its wrong to judge someone whom you've never met based off rumors on the internet
3 - the mob mentality of the furry fandom does need to stop, we need to think for ourselves
4 - FA Admin has been excessive and unprofessional in the execution of their duties,
they deserve the fallout they are getting now, because its the same fall out they have orchestrated
against other members of our community.
5 - after reading the online stories pertaining to the incident everyone is mindlessly bent out of
shape over, 1 even if you take the person at their word it wasn't rape, and 2 if you consider that its
more than likely some exaggeration there, you understand that this person clearly used poor judgement,
and now regrets that decision. also its evident the person being slandered isn't the best
standard of moral male behavior... but hey its california so its to be expected.
what i would like to see done to resolve these issues:
1 - a candid discussion about how internet rumors negatively and disperportionately affect the persons being attacked.
2 - FA admin needs to lift bans on ALL banned Accounts. they also need to invite an OPEN dialouge about what is going on.
3 - they need to suspend their project until they can get a new team together that is up for the task.
the way you put rational thoughts in to understandable sentences..
the way you think..
i really like you roarey ^_^
well, not a creepy stalkerish way.. lets say that.. hmm
i appreciate the fact that there are actually intelligent people around who share their thoughts ^_^
or sumthing
*resumes stalking*
And example of how ridiculous the mob mentality has gone, people are now dogging Sciggles because they think she's one of the victims. Even though he repeatedly said she is not. People too convinced that their side of the story is right to accept that though, and in the name of protecting victims people are effectively harassing the victims.