Hey, Poets; Critique Circle February
16 years ago
If you're a poet or wanna-be poet watching me, let me suggest something:
You should post a link to one poem here, of your own, per month. If you have or plan to post a link to your own work, you should feel obliged to read other poems posted here.
RULES
1) DON'T BE SENSITIVE Don't post if you don't want people to talk about the flaws and weaknesses in your poem. The point of this is to get feedback and improve. Arbitrary pats on the back are not feedback, and do you no good as a developing poet. It's okay to explain yourself to a critic and/or say why you don't agree with them, but don't get all defensive-- critique is somebody spending their time to help you improve.
2) LINK TO YOUR OWN WORK. Don't follow links here and critique other people's work if you don't plan to post anything of your own. If I spot you doing that, I'm likely to point out that you're kinda chickenshit.
3) KIND OF CRITIQUE There's no obligation to either say anything positive, OR say anything negative-- but if you can give somebody your thoughts, you should. You should try to point out all the strengths and things you like, and weaknesses and things you dislike, as your time permits. Also, critiquing other people's work does NOT mean arguing with other critics, although we can certainly argue philosophy of poetry here too.
4) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS Stick to talking about poems, NOT the people who wrote them. Whether somebody's stupid or smelly is irrelevant. Some bright and debonair people write awful poetry, some stupid stinky people write great poetry.
5) KIND OF POEMS Be aware that some kinds of things simply aren't poetry. A basic test is whether it is understandable, interesting, hypnotic, and memorable language when spoken aloud. This usually means Prosody proper. (You can learn everything you need to know on Wikipedia.) Naturally it helps if the subject of the poem isn't boring or trite, but that's a subtler thing. Also, I'd prefer you submit things that aren't X-rated. I write X-rated poetry myself, but I think I'd rather have wider participation.
You should post a link to one poem here, of your own, per month. If you have or plan to post a link to your own work, you should feel obliged to read other poems posted here.
RULES
1) DON'T BE SENSITIVE Don't post if you don't want people to talk about the flaws and weaknesses in your poem. The point of this is to get feedback and improve. Arbitrary pats on the back are not feedback, and do you no good as a developing poet. It's okay to explain yourself to a critic and/or say why you don't agree with them, but don't get all defensive-- critique is somebody spending their time to help you improve.
2) LINK TO YOUR OWN WORK. Don't follow links here and critique other people's work if you don't plan to post anything of your own. If I spot you doing that, I'm likely to point out that you're kinda chickenshit.
3) KIND OF CRITIQUE There's no obligation to either say anything positive, OR say anything negative-- but if you can give somebody your thoughts, you should. You should try to point out all the strengths and things you like, and weaknesses and things you dislike, as your time permits. Also, critiquing other people's work does NOT mean arguing with other critics, although we can certainly argue philosophy of poetry here too.
4) NO PERSONAL ATTACKS Stick to talking about poems, NOT the people who wrote them. Whether somebody's stupid or smelly is irrelevant. Some bright and debonair people write awful poetry, some stupid stinky people write great poetry.
5) KIND OF POEMS Be aware that some kinds of things simply aren't poetry. A basic test is whether it is understandable, interesting, hypnotic, and memorable language when spoken aloud. This usually means Prosody proper. (You can learn everything you need to know on Wikipedia.) Naturally it helps if the subject of the poem isn't boring or trite, but that's a subtler thing. Also, I'd prefer you submit things that aren't X-rated. I write X-rated poetry myself, but I think I'd rather have wider participation.
One of the prototype "fursona reference poem" things I've attempted from time to time.
That said, I'll up this one, since it fits what you did with yours. You wrote about someone's character. I did the same thing in my poem Savioress.
So my defensiveness is up front: if someone doesn't like allusions that assume the audience is well-read (or wants to be inspired to be), and if someone dislikes free verse, they might not dig my stuff.
Not always, I just wanted to make sure folks know that I know that Virgil & the Bard were structure cats.
Poetry; An artform in which steady rythms (of stress and/or syllable length and of word sound-- meter and rhyme, aka prosody) structure speech in order to make it more arresting to (penetrating of) consciousness, and more memorizable. Also known as auditory driving (of trance).
Prosody, or structure, in speech is something that's spontaneous enough that children do it in play, and I think calling it artificial is far off the mark-- it's no more artificial than drumming a drum at 150 bpm-- which likewise all humans react to in a very characteristic way, despite the fact that none of us are born with drums nor an instruction manual that says "your brain will trip out to rythmic sounds at 150 bpm."
I don't have any issues with very referrential poems, so long as I don't think the poet is confused about who his audience is. Hell, I like Joyce, and that without always getting him. OTOH obviously I think free verse has a real struggle to be meaningful, as poetry goes.
But you know-- you critique per your standards, I'll use mine.
Let me clarify:
Semitic verse of ancient times didn't have rhyme, or often meter. It used repetition and parallelism to create structure. Latin verse didn't have rhyme, it had meter - and despite the strict nature of meter, syllables were divided as short & long, which meant lines could have an extra syllable from our modern perspective. If Virgil didn't need it, why do I? If Martial didn't need it, why do I? If Solomon didn't need it, why do I?
However, many great English poets were devoted to rhyme - and some would have mourned the rise of blank verse. It's got meter, but no rhyme! Others, like the Bard, embraced it for some work. Others wrote just in that mode.
In modern times, many rhyming poems I read seem so dedicated to either rhyme or meter that they sacrifice a natural flow, a judicious use of language, a depth in meaning all to pursue the rhyme - resulting in horrors such as "love/above," "heart/start," etc.
Meanwhile, there are awful free verse exercises as well. Without structure, sometimes free verse allows one to say too much, whereas a modern poet trying to write in strict rhyme or meter - no longer the dominant musical tongue of our verse or narration - will say too little, or say something for sake of structure, not meaning.
Free verse through the work of Eliot, Crane, Frost, etc. has established itself as the dominant voice of American poetry for some time, but this doesn't mean it's the only type. Pale Fire by Nabokov was a novel featuring a hilarious commentary on a poignant set of four cantos written in rhyming couplets, in iambic pentameter.
My definition of poetry lines with #2 at Merriam Webster's:
"Writing that formulates a concentrated imaginative awareness of experience in language chosen and arranged to create a specific emotional response through meaning, sound, and rhythm."
Nor do they furnish an argument against meter or rhyme, which are spontaneously recurring properties of speech. Yes, vernacular & classical Latin poetry lacked rhyme. Yes, there's sprung rhythm poetry that's not conventional meter (though it's still accentual meter).
BTW, how ancient Hebrew was spoken is poorly understood. Modern Hebrew is an invented langauge like Esperanto.
Obviously, different languages bring different tools to the task of composing speech that is structured. But poetry is, inherently, rythmically structured speech.
Not that dictionary definitions are ever the final word, but I consistenly cringe at Websters, and since we're comparing, my OED unabridged, aside from usages marked as archaic:
3. The art or work of the poet;
a. With special reference to its form: Composition in verse or metrical language, or in some equivalent patterned arrangement of language; usually also with choice of elevated words and figurative uses, and option of a syntactical order, differing more or less from those of ordinary speech or prose writing. In this sense, poetry in its lowest form has been identified with versification or verse.
b. The product of this art as a form of literature; the writings of a poet or poets; poems collectively or generally; metrical work or composition. Verse.
c. With special reference to its function: The expression or embodiment of beatiful or elevated thought, imagination, or feeling, in language adapted to stir the imagination and emotions, both immediately and also through the harmonic suggestions latent in or implied by the words and connection sof words actually used [etc ad nauseam].
Also, I've read a lot of Frost-- I don't remember him ever writing in free verse. I've read that he described free verse as "playing tennis without a net," and if you read his "Ten Mills," you come across a little gem:
V. Pertinax
Let chaos storm!
Let cloud shapes swarm!
I wait for form.
Three lines of uniformly rhymed iambic dimeter (named after a Roman Emperor with a background as a grammar teacher, who was slain after bravely trying to reason with his underpaid palace guard), is I think as complete a comment on structure as one could hope to make.
Anyway, back to reading poetry.
Walt Whitman's rejection of prevailing structures, much like French poets of the era, was a reaction also to the dominant philosophy and theology.
One could argue (indeed, many have) the strict meter and strict rhyme often reflect cultural inclinations. As the 20th century progressed and many poets either questioned religious narratives of a purpose to the universe, or turned toward dark incarnations of their faith (Eliot's Christianity, Crane's mysticism built on Greco-Roman and Christian allusions), they abandoned much of the structure of previous eras.
Ayn Rand and atheist Objectivists would argue for strict structure, I would presume, much as they deride non-realistic visual art. But this is almost an imposition of values as much as an aesthetic.
Your Oxford definition seems harmonious with Webster's. But "beauty" is almost another imposition of values. Henry Rollins' poetry is far too unstructured for me to imitate, and it often dwells on the ugly side of human nature, which I applaud. Catullus used his mastery of the Roman tongue to write both odes to sweet Lesbia, and to threaten to do horribly sexual things to his rivals and critics.
An extreme unadorned free-versifier like the high-selling Billy Collins might argue that his line breaks, which may seem arbitrary, are simply his way to differentiate his poems from naked prose. Many free verse writers since the 70's seem to be trying to unify poetic thought with other modes. That may not be everyone's goal, but poetry is open-ended enough to accommodate it.
Dictionaries, as you noted, are never the final word because they are inductive creations. They reflect how the words are used. Thus, what society considers poetry is poetry, in a linguistic sense.
Ever read Whitman, by the way? Interesting writing, but freaking awful poetry. I'd be embarassed to read it aloud. I hadn't read that his work was a reaction to anything political, but I guess I'm not surprised. Some of the other early modernist poets really did explicitly drag politics into questions of artform. And it all makes exactly as much sense as saying: "I must be free of all restrcitions! So I will compose atonal music that is free of rythm!" Throwing away the essential tools of poetry to prove a political point is fail.
The legitimate reason in that period to object to traditional english verse was that it had taken unnecessary features like variant syntax and pronunciation, and, as my OED puts it, "elevated" langauge, to absurd extremes. Frost also gently mocked that, I believe he referred to it as "churchy langauge." Dealing with the frailties of inbred English verse did not require throwing away meter and rhyme.
>>Ayn Rand and atheist Objectivists would argue for strict structure, I would presume, much as they deride non-realistic visual art. But this is almost an imposition of values as much as an aesthetic.
Little though I care to cozy up to Rand, this'd be one point on which she's right. There is something which imposes an extensive set of specific aesthetic values on every human being born, and it would be meaningless to try and escape them. They don't derive from culture or religion, and are the same everywhere-- they derive from human nature. E.g., you have an eyeball, and moreover, a visual cortex that is pre-organized to process the signals from your eyeball in specific ways.
>>his line breaks, which may seem arbitrary, are simply his way to differentiate his poems from naked prose.
In other words, an effort to be poetry in name/appearance/affectation only. Why is that worthwhile? There's nothing bad about prose. If you're making prose harder to read by splitting it out into meaningless lines so it can be classified in a different genre, what's the point in that besides selling books in a different section of the store?
>>Thus, what society considers poetry is poetry, in a linguistic sense.
In Reality, there's a thing: rythmically patterened speech (RPS). It has characteristic effects on people, and spontaneously recurrs in cultures arbitrarily distant from one-another, because of inborn traits we have including the use of langauge, the possibility of altered and ecstatic states of consciousness, and the tendency for rythmic patterns to drive us into them.
In English, RPS is called poetry. Society may later start calling hubcaps poetry. But that doesn't mean hubcaps are RPS, and it doesn't mean that any reasonable person would start taking a big interest in RPS and hubcaps.
http://www.furaffinity.net/view/1933943/
Once a month sounds like a pretty good time-frame; though, I must say that I usually only write a poem when I'm inspired by something. (usually a breathtaking piece of artwork RIGHT HERE on FA, but I can get some pretty random inspiration from other things too) ^^
Well, I guess I'll post my newest piece here for the month of February! =D
"Memories of a Fragrant Heart": http://www.furaffinity.net/view/2017068
It's my first shot at a love poem...sorta. =3
I hope you all enjoy it. ^^
Also, I SHOULD indeed be watching you Furthling. Such a silly wolfmur I am! xD
Meanwhile, maybe I should just open March early. Thoughts? If I do, it'll still won't be before thursday.