Dildo breaker. :C

(There was a run-on gag of the last two journals.)

But what if dildo was not kill?
http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ioFrKS687FQ

CONFIRMED.

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Your avatar... is that a clip from the music video 'Fantasy' by DyE?

Yes

Not sure if it's sad I know that song...

That is an amazing song and video. Why is it sad you know that song? o:?

Just because of how weird the video is. It has a powerful message, though, I'll give it that.

Sorry, had to ;p

Yes. I am disappoint.

Your icon's an interesting mix with this comment.

A town in Newfoundland, Canada.

As someone living right next to Newfoundland, I can 100% confirm.

Okay, one last thing.

My biggest concern about this whole situation is that an outside corporate entity has been brought into the Furry Community to operate a site who's people they likely do not understand. I know this site and other Furry sites have exchanged hands/paws before BUT those transactions were made by Furries for Furries. This is key. FurAffinity is a community of Furries made, supported, visited and populated BY FURRIES. It is of by and for Furries. We more than any external corporate influence understand each other. We know why we are here and why we patriate this and other related sites. In comes IMVU, a company with questionable reputation and motives who do not understand the Furry Community and would likely find us cringe worthy at best. Furries are not mainstream, and that is a wonderful thing. My biggest fear is that someday Furries will be co-opted by the mainstream driving out real Furries to be replaced with a corporatized, sanitized and watered down replica. If Dragoneer truly loves FurAffinity and the Community, he should have come to us openly and honestly explaining his situation to us. FurAffinity costs money to operate, I get it, I really do. But to sell out to an external entity that could easily shut this site down as a purely business motivated decision is just ridiculous. How can we honestly trust Dragoneer at this point? And also, if he loves FA and says how he has hung on because this is his baby, why in the hell would he hand the keys to the kingdom over to a non Furry outsider? I'm sure many financially and technologically savvy Furs would have gladly bought him out. Was it ego then? Now that IMVU own FurAffinity, Dragoneer has lost all real control over the fate of his work. He is now an employee of IMVU which means that they can fire him. Why would Dragoneer open himself up to that vulnerability? Sure things might be good now, money coming in for new equipment etc but FurAffinity is no longer the property of Dragoneer/FA. It all belongs to IMVU. This makes no sense at all. Either Dragoneer is lying about his love for FA/Furry Community or he is fatally misguided and delusional. IMVU can take his baby away at any time and there is nothing Dragoneer and by extention US can do about it. I hope he has considered all of this. Dragoneer better have a plan B if he wants to retain something of his work.

To clarify, FA was Alkora's creation. This was his work to begin with.

What about FA advertising? Will the IMVU ads overshadow the ads that FA users can buy to promote themselves? If so, will there be any reduction in cost seeing as FA users will be getting less for their money?

(this has nothing to do with the comment replied to, just wanna be seen/answered..)

That question was answered dude.
It was hard to find but its at the end of number 7

7) Do we have new content policies?
No. IMVU's [Terms of Service and content policies do not apply to content shared/sold on our site. There is not going to be any banning of content/users. FA's site policies that are currently in place will continue to be applicable. While there are minor changes (mostly clarifications) to the AUP coming next week, IMVU has not suggested, nor requested, any changes be implemented to the site other than some upcoming advertising changes. It is our goal to integrate the ads in a non-obtrusive way (like our current ads).

Basically they are going to just have IMVU's ads in with ours. Its about the same, like anyone else who bought ad space on here. IMVU will have ads just like ours most likely.

Hope I helped out there ^^

Why would you buy an entire website just to place ads on it? They could have done that without the hefty investment costs into FA. There is something more to this than meets the eye.

...robots in disguise

Autobots assemble!

I keep getting that nagging feeling, too. :p There's no way they're going to pay to float a site just for a little extra ad revenue--they'd be lucky to break even...

I am sure it wont impede out lives at all

Here I go point by point deconstructing this series of Q and A. I'll likely be banned, so be it.
1) Why Sell to IMVU?
IMVU's offer and their genuine desire to leave Fur Affinity as a completely independent group is what convinced me that this was the right thing to do. They offered us a budget and financial assistance to improve the site, while still leaving us independently run.
REBUTTAL: Really? IMVU is a for-profit corporate antity who's soul purpose is to make money. They clearly see something in FA that they want and it's not the hardware or code on the site, it's the user base and user generated content created by and for the Furry Community. This transaction was not an act of charity and seeing as how FA has nothing substantial to bring to the table other than it's content and user base, suggesting otherwise is frankly insulting to our intelligence. Making the claim that IMVU will not eventually influance or change how FA and it's users are allowed to operate is inherantly dishonest.
2) How does this affect me?
It does not. FA is run independently of IMVU, and will continue to be a furry site RUN by furries. The only difference you will see is IMVU will add some unobtrusive third party ads and, with their financial help, the site will improve. You get a better site in the end.
REBUTTAL: Again, this is not a charitable agreement, IMVU ultimately wants something in return for their investment. Nothing so far has been spelled out in clear terms as to the motivation for doing this. And "we want to make it better" is not an explaination. We want concrete evidence not vauge flowery retoric. It would greatly boost the credibility of both FA and IMVU by disclosing the contracts online for the community to review.
3) What are the details of the agreement?
Business documents like terms of sale are not shared publicly and this is not an exception to that standard. It falls under under NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement). In addition, there has been talk about IMVU being a publicly traded company - it is not.
REBUTTAL: I find this rather convenient and disingenious given the fact that the users of FA which generate the content and traffic are intrinsically linked to the value of FA. We as the content creators and users have a stake in this transaction yet we've been cut out of any input/opinion during negotiations behind our backs. Yet we're supposed to just accept their word? It's laughable. I find it difficult in light such deception to "just trust us". The content creators and users of FA have everything to lose here. This latest excuse does not inspire a sense of good faith between FA/IMVU and the user base.
IMVU (and their board) are well aware of our content and what we host, and are fine with the site as-is.
REBUTTAL: Really? That doesn't jibe with IMVU's TOS or operations on their other properties. Where is your evidence for this assertion? Are we really to believe that given the strict rules and guidelines IMVU applies to it's other properties will not at some point be applied here on FA? It is inherantly dishonest to say this. The FA user base can not reasonably believe that IMVU will never change how FA is operated. There are many examples of content on FA that IMVU would never allow or wish to attach themselves to. It would be a liability to IMVU's other business relations. We simply can not believe this.
4) What does IMVU get out of this?
They get to use our site for advertising from their third-party partners who are interested in engaged users like ours who share a common interest - art. In addition, IMVU has a rather large furry segment which benefits from FA, and likewise, FA members can benefit from IMVU’s offerings.
REBUTTAL: The get to USE? OUR? site? Wait a minute, doesn't IMVU OWN Furaffinity now? It sure does! Either IMVU owns FA or it does not own FA! Make up our minds! What kind of pathetic double-talk is this? As for common interests, what common interests? Art? In comparison to FA, IMVU is a joke. And what does "large furry segment" mean exactly? I nor most other furries responding to this thread have never even heard of IMVU until the other day and those that have used it found the experience mediocre at best. Honestly, what are you talking about?
5) Who is the site admin now?
Dragoneer, and he has been given complete independence and authority by IMVU to run the site as he sees fit, and has been given budget to make the improvements the site has sorely needed. He works for IMVU, and is tasked with improving the the site full time.
REBUTTAL: Oh, I'm sure Dragoneer 'You will accept my authorataaaa!, will remain the incompetent site admin of FA just long enough for IMVU to replace him. He is now an employee that can be fired and replaced. Given Dragoneers track record for "improving the sire", I'm not inspired with a lot of hope. Brilliant just absolutely brilliant move there.
6) What about our content? Does IMVU now own rights to it?
No. IMVU does not own, have any rights, take commission from etc for any of your art shared/sold here. It is business as usual, and there are no changes planned in regards to that. You will not be required to sell your content as part of IMVU’s catalog, nor will IMVU have access to use your content as they see fit. Some quotes about “Section 9” of a document have been floating around but that section does not exist.
REBUTTAL: No? Says who? This is critical in order to keeping FA alive. I'd like to see that in writing by both IMVU and FA. Not on some post but in the contract. Without proof of this assertion, we the FA user base and content creators have NO reasonable expectation to believe a word of this unless it is put into writing where we can see it for ourselves. Given the level of dishonesty we will rightfully remain suspicious of this claim. Now that IMVU owns FA, who is to say otherwise?
7) Do we have new content policies?
No. IMVU's [Terms of Service and content policies do not apply to content shared/sold on our site. There is not going to be any banning of content/users. FA's site policies that are currently in place will continue to be applicable. While there are minor changes (mostly clarifications) to the AUP coming next week, IMVU has not suggested, nor requested, any changes be implemented to the site other than some upcoming advertising changes. It is our goal to integrate the ads in a non-obtrusive way (like our current ads).
REBUTTAL: Again put it in writing or this is yet another empty statement backed by nothing.
And on that note: all existing advertising will be honored, and will be kept as-is.

8) Have you given IMVU our information? Do they have access?
No, and the sharing of FA user data/personal information is NOT part of our agreement and thus will not be happening in the future. FA data is FA data, and will not be shared with IMVU or used for marketing purposes.
REBUTTAL: No? Are we honestly to believe that IMVU does not have access to our PMs and other personal information? THEY OWN THE SITE! This is such a dishonest claim and insulting to our intelligence. Are we to believe FA will hold hostage the data away from it's new owner IMVU? Come on now. How stupid do you think we are!
9) Are you going to have paid accounts/subscriptions etc?
We have no plans to introduced paid account/subscriptions. If that were to happen in the future it would be site’s the decision, and one which would have to be thought over very carefully. However, we have no plans to do so at this time.
REBUTTAL: "We have no plans..." Oh I'm sure FA has no plans, but that is not to say that IMVU has no plans! You better believe paywalls and premium accounts are in our future at some point. To believe otherwise is just foolish.
10) Are any IMVU staff on the administration/mod team?
With exception of Dragoneer (who was brought on to IMVU staff to maintain and run the site), IMVU is hands-off and the site will continue to be run as it always has been: by furries, for furries.
REBUTTAL: "IMVU is hands off" I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the utter contempt shown to the FA user base at this statement. All I can say is if IMVU is hands off, FA is doomed regardless. Everyone knows the track record of the "senior admin".
11) How does this apply to FA United (www.faunited.org)?
Just like the website, nothing is changing in regards to the FA United’s direction (except that we may have a larger budget for nicer events!). The convention will still be held September 11-13, and the site is launching early next month.
REBUTTAL: All I can say is I hope people are reporting their income properly, tax fraud is a nasty business killer.
12) What happened to the funds from the donation held in Oct 2014?The money raised for the donation drive went to several things:
A) Upgrading our DDoS (Distributed Denial of Service) protection from Cloudflare
B) Purchased a new server (replacement app/advertising server)
C) Upgraded existing servers (e.g. doubled the RAM in our main DB)
D) Extensions to the site’s SSL certificates
E) Purchased promised donor rewards
REBUTTAL: Uh huh... how about some 'transparency' or at least a recipt pic or two?
In addition, there have been rumors that the discussion of sale happened during this donation drive. This is incorrect. The donation drive (a reaction to constant DDoS attacks) was held mid-October. The sale of the site did not take place until January.
REBUTTAL: Rumors are rumors however given the blatant deception and contempt towards the FA user base shown thus far, I could believe any of it.

Answer: http://static1.gamespot.com/uploads.....zivj0gop4b.gif

I love you for this!

So you weren't happy with dragoneer before, but now don't want any new administration?

You are skeptical and in total denial of generally accepted business practices? Make up your mind. Do you want conclusive proof that FA is not responsible for climate change as well? Find real factual basis for your "rebuttals" and if we're lucky, maybe even your initial concerns.

And the last one is "I don't care I just don't believe you" ...So what you're saying is even facts aren't good enough to convince you.. got it.

SHILL WARNING

lmao

Facts aren't facts until there is proof behind it. I have my doubts as well about how IMVU plans on using the site since I'm sure their real focus isn't to improve the site but gain money.

REBUTTAL: "u mad, bro?"

REBOTTLE. It's environmentally conscious.

nah, too much plastic

Those are some good points.

It seems odd to think they would leave something they bought as independent, especially since they could have left it independent for free.

I mean you don't have to buy a website to have advertisements on it, so it seems like there would have to be a bigger goal for a business to want full ownership.

"I mean you don't have to buy a website to have advertisements on it, so it seems like there would have to be a bigger goal for a business to want full ownership. "

Oh wow, good observation there. Hm!

This is a textbook definition of Paranoia.

You know what they say... "it's not paranoia when they really *are* out to get you"

The OP brings up some good points in his rebuttals, even if they are worded in a confrontational way. The bottom line is that IMVU is not a charity - they saw something they felt they could monetize at FA. We just don't know what it is yet - so everyone is guessing. The reality will probably fall somewhere between "business as usual" and "OMG - paywall everything and steal the existing art". Not much we can do except wait and see. And make sure we all have a "Plan B"...

A good point. Although if people think things won't change they are about as smart as a sack of bricks.

If Dragoneer can't pay for FA without holding donation drives every time something happens then FA is not very profitable. However I don't get the feeling that IMVU advertising on FA alone is going make FA a tool of profit (via driving the fanbase from here into IMVU so they will waste money or something like that). IMVU would likely have to make their social networking game VERY attractive to the fanbase here to do that which once again why would they need to acquire FA to do so over reforming their game and advertising here?

So whatever they do and whenever they do it, we are likely to pay in the end. Hook, line and sucker.

If Dragoneer simply can't or doesn't want to pay for the operation of the site ... I get it. I am a little surprised that if he wanted "out", he wouldn't have solicited bids from the community. For the kind of prices that have been thrown around, it wouldn't be too difficult to get a group together and buy him out. Would he have turned them down because he wanted the money *and* control of the site too (like some rumors claim)? Maybe, maybe not - but at this point it doesn't matter because he sold it.

I don't for a minute buy the "IMVU bought the site because they just love the furry fandom and they wanted the AD revenue". That's total BS.

And I'm not worried. The fandom survived the fall of Yerf. And the fall (decline?) of FurNation. If IMVU trashes FA, it will just be another sad chapter in the site's history. And everyone will move somewhere else.

I'd hate to even speculate about how IMVU plans to monetize FA, but "premium" features or pay-to-view adult both seem likely. Given their stance on adult work on their own site, and the difficulty in getting payment processors to accept adult sites... it wouldn't surprise me if they just outright banned it. Who knows. I'm not losing sleep over it because there is nothing I can do about it.

Indeed, we can all deal with it as it comes, but in the meantime, I got a bright future having my pictorial content displayed on a different furry art website. = D

Yep. No reason to panic until there is a reason to panic. This current drama is more of a "reason to be concerned" but it's not like the first person to bail at the first rumor of trouble is a winner!

It's also not like this is the "first rumor of trouble" either.

- Admins/mods banning folks or removing their art/posts without warning
- FA hires a known hacker, giving him access to all KINDS of user info, receives a lot of backlash, then lets him go
- Multiple DDoS attacks, and likely other (non-maintenance) reasons for the site being down for a minimum of a few days at a time
- An unprofitable enough business model that FA has to run a donation drive, with a lot of folks questioning where the money went (and seeing virtually no evidence that it went where it is claimed)

Yet anyone leaving now is "bailing at the first rumor of trouble"? Sure.

Yeah, I'm not going to defend all the problems the site has had over the years. You're not even listing all of them. With each new round of drama, everyone panics, quite a few say "I'm leaving FA forevah" and then come back in a few weeks or days. But... with each round of drama some leave and never do come back. It's kind of sad, really.

I agree that FA seems to be extremely poorly run. Plenty of epically bad decisions over the years. And staff never learning from their mistakes. But as to the business model... FA is a site for furry art. Everything is free. From my understanding, all the admins, staff, programmers (such as they are) - everyone is a volunteer. So the fact that FA bleeds money isn't a surprise to me, and shouldn't be to you either. There are legitimate questions about how the donation money is spent. There is (and always has been) zero transparency there. And a lot of ugly rumors. Maybe true. Maybe not. Point is we don't know.

What I meant about "bailing at the first rumor of trouble" is that nothing has happened *yet*. Yes, it looks bad. Yes, I can't really see an upside to the IMVU purchase. But am I going to wipe my account and leave because something *might* happen? No. I'll wait and see. Like the saying goes "the door is always open". There is no prize for being the first to bail. Given the site's history, I'm not optimistic, but as you pointed out this is far from the worst management decision FA staff has ever made.

Oh, don't get me wrong. I'm not wiping my account (not that much to wipe, anyway), nor leaving. I AM, however, readying my "lifeboat", copying everything (aside from most of my journals) to another site. And until everything shakes out, I can't help but worry that this actually IS the worst management decision that they've made. It might not be, but I'm not counting on that. If nothing else, it's the management decision with at least the second-worst potential implications. (The worst being where they gave so much access to a person with questionable motives.)

Same here.

Well given that FA is kind of famous for its outages, that's smart. Most people have no real connection to FA other than it's "the center of attention" in the furry world. For now. So no harm is having a toe in other waters.

The worst management decision is kind of hard to say. If you strictly measure it by how many artists left FA and never came back, I'd say the "rape drama" takes the win.

Qualify that please?

Nothing negative has happened at all pertaining to the IMVU/FA sale, plus they even gave all the important information behind it, yet still you still deconstructed it like something bad has happened already. Wait until something REALLY bad happens and then break it down, otherwise your whole big post was useless.

Given the history of FA and Dragoneer, can you blame me? And no, the details have not been laid out in a detailed fashion but rather in vague terms. Also come on, IMVU is a terrible platform/app which up until yesterday most furries have never heard of. Nothing negative has happened YET. When you look at the players involved and the track record of each, it is not unreasonable to assume the FA user base will ultimately be affected negatively for the simple reason that we are treated as an afterthought, literally.

No, I don't blame you due to the history of this site and Dragoneer, and yes I know that IMVU is not the most savory of sites. Again, the fact remains that nothing bad has happened yet. Who knows, maybe they can help improve this site for the better. I really wish you and a whole bunch of other people would stop overreacting so much. Until something bad happens, calm yourself.

S..so, instead of two adderalls I should take one?

Um, what?

Maybe 1 & a 1/2, just to be on the safe side... and learn to spell! Aterol! If you take a medication, you should at least know how to spell it, and if you don't, don't be an ignorant git, to the people who do! I can understand your concerns about the sale of the site, but your "Chicken Little" attitude IS a little hyper, with all your rebuttals... Yes, you have picked apart the Q&A, and these are all very real concerns, but so far, at least they are being "remotely" honest with the users. What I honestly think, is that they see potential in luring FA users, into joining their "free" site, and then making it impossible to play, unless you have a boatload of money, for the upgrades. I do agree, that the adds will most likely be crap, and not anything to do with art. But, seriously, like don't panic the whole FA community with your Rebuttals to every single piece of the Q&A. Just chillax a little, until something that warrants a real legitimate concern, or mass panic, arises.

Feel the chill... breathe... repeat. That's it. I know I haven't been a member of FA for that long, but if IMVU DID buy FA, in October, don't you think there would have been changes made, already? Like all the issues with the DDoS's? We've certainly had plenty of problems with that, even since January, when I joined. I have not seen any negative changes, other than the site being slow, in the last week, or so, and, not being able to upload content as quickly as I normally would. I love FA. I've made a lot of really nice friends here, just in the couple of months I've been on, and I'm the last person, in the world, who wants to see it change. BUT... if it DOES change, for the better, and IMVU, can put their lousy adds on here, so what? Nobody is forcing you to JOIN IMVU, so just keep doing business as usual, until, something should prevent that from happening.

Oh, and btw... I'm NOT a Shill, ok? I'm concerned, because I just found this community, and I don't want to lose the friends I've made here, because they're all jumping ship, for no legitimate reason. If a reason arises, then I'll be more concerned, and I'll add an account somewhere else. But, until such an occasion arises, I'll be staying put, commissioning artists, as usual, and talking to my friends, as usual.

I agree, it's good to have a little concern, over the sale of FA, to IMVU, but I don't agree with inciting a mass panic, among this furry community.

While he may have taken a somewhat confrontational tone, I can't agree with the assessment that Ivan is taking a "Chicken Little" attitude. FA has been struggling (at best) and in the red (at worst) for probably a good year or two. Dragoneer has made multiple decisions that have brought more controversy than benefit, and has made FA so unprofitable that they needed to solicit donations more prominently than ever before.

While FA has a huge user base, those users are generally more interested in art, than 3-D chatting between avatars. There are a lot of furries on IMVU, but I hardly think they comprise a large portion of THEIR user base. Certainly not enough to suggest that furries will be attracted to their system in droves, AND be willing to spend significant money on their accounts.
I especially have to agree with Ivan on one count, more than the rest. I don't see how IMVU expects to recoup everything they have invested, and stand to invest, with simply an increase in ad revenue. Think about it: they're somehow going to have to cover whatever their initial purchase price was, plus Dragoneer's pay, PLUS whatever improvements they're purportedly paying for. With a handful of "unobtrusive" ads, and the speculation that furries will come and spend money on their system. I just don't see how IMVU can POSSIBLY turn a profit on this move, while leaving FA policy "as is" AND paying for improvements to the site.

As for not having seen any "negative changes", I could point out any number of cases - both in world history, and the more recent history of the internet - where no one saw any "negative changes", until changes were implemented which affected them. But this post is about FA and IMVU, so I won't go there. If FA actually DOES improve as a result of this, I'll be thrilled, but I'm not holding my breath. I'm not "jumping ship", but I AM getting my lifeboat ready. Until now, most furries have used other sites as secondary points of presence, and directed folks here first, and to those other sites second. Even if things don't get worse, but don't improve (and dramatically so), I forsee FA becoming the fandom's myspace.

P.S. - IMVU bought FA in January, not October. Not long before the purchase, Dragoneer was going on about how FA would be more transparent, going forward. Yet it took at least TWO MONTHS for the sale to even be announced, when companies are usually chomping at the bit to announce such a sale! Transparency, huh?

Then, I suppose we ought to all get our dingies ready, in case FA pulls a Titanic on all of us Wish I had known this was happening when I signed up, so I wouldn't have. But then I wouldn't have met the many friends I have made on FA... So disappointing. I should never join anything, because whenever I do, the place falls apart almost immediately afterward, with the exception of FB. *SIGH* No matter what I like, a food/beverage, a perfume, a lipstick color... they all get discontinued, shortly after I start trying/using/liking them... I guess that goes for websites, too.

Oh, and to your P.S. - I typed IF in front of that... I am aware of when the site was purchased.

Hopefully, we will all be pleasantly surprised, but I'd best start blowing up my life raft, as well... *SIGH*

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adderall

Nobody on here seems to understand something very critical. They OWN the site. They own it! Any protests Neer might have to any policy changes they might do, do not matter. He is their employee, not the other way around. Also, those of you saying this is a free site so deal with it, while that may be true a huge chunk of us use the site for business. Also our traffic, our posts are what make the site run anyway. Without posters, even a free site is worth nothing. FA needs us much more than we need them.

This whole thing just reeks. I just can't believe a business that charge their users for everything would just buy this site out of the kindness of their hearts. Websites cost thousands to maintain and there admittedly isn't a very good way to monetize FA. Now, put a business who's main goal seems to be money at the head of an admittedly not profitable site. Do you honestly think they'll be okay with just the revenue driven by their ads? Just think about it for a moment.

you far too trusting.

*blows the planet up anyway*

You worked really hard on this. So... can you like... fix it so it has paragraphs and maybe bold the text for questions and rebuttal? It's really hard to read as is.

More people might take you seriously if you could fucking spell. This site might be of use to you:
http://dictionary.reference.com/

More people might take your advice if you were more diplomatic.

You're welcome.

That was disingenius [sic]

Diplomacy works in both directions. Your "rebuttals" were flat out accusations. Is it wrong to be mistrusting? Not at all. A little cynicism is healthy for everyone. But, if you start screaming "conspiracy theory" just because everyone else has, you're not making a point. You're just trying to be the loudest voice heard in a crowd of naysayers.

I have yet to have seen how users are really being negatively affected by any of this. Just because a company is buying the site does not automatically mean it's all downhill from here. Of course it's possible. ANYTHING is possible, good or bad. But, y'know what won't help smooth the waters? Screaming accusations and acting like you could have handled the business end of things any better. If you DO think you could have, you should have stepped up and offered suggestions back when the donations were such a big issue for people. Maybe you should have emailed 'Neer and said something, offered up some suggestions or even your own professional opinions.

I should take this moment to note that I'm not trying to defend any of the decisions made by 'Neer or IMVU in all of this. But, until I actually see something NEGATIVE happen on this site (and I have yet to have at any point since I've personally been here), then I'm fine with things.

Also, I'm NOT saying you shouldn't air concerns. Concerns are important to bring to peoples' attention, after all. But, voice them calmly. Inquisitively, even. Ask questions. Try to understand the bullet points. If you don't know the answer to something, ASK. If you throw out accusations, all you do is make yourself look like an entitlement whore who feels that because they're a part of this community, the community owes them. You make your own fortune. You make your own place in this world. Stop expecting everyone else to do it for you just because you got comfortable in one spot for a while.

This site was put here so people could make friends, display their art and have a good time. I don't see how any of that can really change because of some ads. o_o

And, if I end up being so horribly wrong about all of this that I feel I need to leave the site to get away from it, then so be it. I guess I'll be a louder voice for it all on the other end. But, until that time, I see no reason for such overreaction. All it does it garner mistrust. We have enough trouble with that in this world already from people who don't get what we're about. Let's try to at least show some trust inside our own borders.

This ^ *thumb up*

**Realized I should have also made note that I'm just as pissed off about this IMVU thing.

Wow, someone who can finally see the bigger picture.

People don't do things for nothing, especially a business, and the other guy did make a good point, why would IMVU buy FA when they could have just made an agreement to place Ads which would have boosted FA's income for site improvements anyway? Why sell out?

Something is rotten in the State of Denmark and it appears to be hiding behind closed doors.

Alright. Do you know what IMVU is? I am just asking. Though it was said in the thing up there and you did deconstruct the whole thing so I am sure you saw. It would be completely illegal for IMVU to take the content created by anyone on this site because it is their intellectual property.If they did start using our stuff someone would find out. Why dont you take off your tinfoil hat and sit down. Also you kmost likely wont get banned for this. IMVU is kinda like second life without the huge open world. It is kinda neat but a bit silly. IMVU isnt some big ass corporate conglomerate. The site is safe. All IMVU wants is to advertize to people who would most likely enjoy it. Furries. Because IMVU has 3d furry avatars you can make look like your sona. Seriously. Calm your tits

I agree, it would be illegal to do that. But what else is there for FA to offer IMVU? IMVU sure knows what it wants and the only thing I can come up with is their desire to take control of the existing content somehow. That's the only thing that is of any value in FA. Who knows what kind of legal maneuvering they may do to accomplish such a thing. IMVU has the money and lawyers, individual furries don't. And let's face it, most furries are broke. If someone stole your art could ou mount a legal defense? I can see a scenario where they are banking on furries not responding legally to theft of their art/fursonas in the hopes they can get away with it. I know that's pure speculation but it is always a possibility. And FA i.e. Dragoneer can't do anything about it if he wanted to or not.

Well dude, as I have mentioned before, FA is a furry fanbase. There are TONS of furs here who would love IMVU. Which is a 3d social network. IMVU wont steal stuff from FA because they dont need to. People put their own content on there all the time to sell it for credist. Just like second life. FA offers a HUGE opportunity for advertizing. Getting their game out there for people to play and possibly make money on. FA has people on here every day commenting, talking, posting laughing sharing. And yes it is also an art website. Furries are a great advertizing market for social games like IMVU. And as long as FA is going strong and the people of FA are happy with the site, IMVU gets plenty of potential new players and dragoneer makes money instead of losing it to the site. So I would relax. Things are going to be awesome soon I garuntee it. And if you are right and this entire thing turns to shit. Then it isnt the end of the worldd. eah you will have lost a website that you put a lot of time and effort into. Art you may have posted be gone. But you still have you and your ability to create. We could make a whole new site and rebuild from the ground up. Furries are strong willed. Although sometimes a little whiny there are many who would collectively band together to make something like this possible.

FA is going to be alright man. You'll see ^^

Be that all as it may, IMVU sucks. I could see merging/selling to Linden Labs, where furries already have an established footing. Most furries here are scratching their head going IMVU who? It makes no sense. Plus, they are a shitty company according to BBB.

Have u used imvu? If not you cant really say its bad or good, and imvu probably bought fa in hope that they can get people to join imvu and make avatars wglhich will net them a profit. And also they cant legaly post the whole deal if they did dragonner would get sued and the deal would fall through its just how buisness works. Either way its done so if u have a serious issue with it go to another site, but sooner or later those will probably get sponsorships also running a large website isnt cheap.

I have and I do not like it. And you are right. I just wish more people would actually care about what's happening to them instead of excepting their fate.

But thats the thing everyone is complaining about their fates while not giving a dam aboug neer tbh if i was neer i would of shut this site down years ago. It has been a thorn in his side forever and finially he gets a chance to not only keep working on his life work but also get out of debt and make some money and suddenly everyone who hses his site that he poured blood and sweat into for free might i add start up this holier then thou comment thread about how he betrayed us. Us who lost nothing from this deal. Your art stays urs worst case scenario u just move to another site. Im not saying the people who are worried and raising hell are in the wrong im just asking for them to put themselves in neers shoes for a few minutes a man who has worked his ass off for this site and community and im aure ur gonna contradict that but remember this site is FREE and hes responsible for that! Not us as a community, of fa users, as artists and consumers we arent the reason its free. Its free bc neer cares about us, about the community why would a man who cares hurt us willingly. He did this bc he had to otherwise he would more then likely of had to shut it down to save himself.

Once again im not complaining about the people but just think about what the person ur fussing at is going through :/

I, for one, am not complaining about Dragoneer's motivations behind this move. I AM, however, questioning the wisdom of it. As I understand it, there was a group of FA users who, sometime in the last year or two, offered to buy FA from Dragoneer, and their offer was essentially ignored, or at least not taken seriously. I don't know how that offer compares to this one, with the NDA and all that, but from what I'd heard, it was supposed to have been a relatively attractive offer.

From what I've seen here, it seems like this deal is, at best, a risky move in an attempt for both parties to make (more) money. And at worst, it's a desparate attempt to make two entities with questionable business models and profitability, into one company that's significantly profitable. And that's IF both parties are being honest about their desire not to impose fees on the FA user base, as well as their desire to actually improve FA. To me, those are both BIG question marks.

There are TONS of furs here who would love IMVU.

Wait ... wut? What the **** are you smoking? IMVU is the absolute crappiest, back-door laden, virus filled, pedophile hangout.

Re: Your #1.. It amazes me that people will crawl down the throats of a company like IMVU while, at the same time, giving say.. Bad Dragon impunity. They are a for-profit company and happily rip off furries and their ideas.. yet people seem not to care? And let's not even touch on the furry artists on FA who have impunity from criticism, despite it being well known they owe thousands in unfinished commissions.. :D

I mean, sure, COMPANIES BAD I get it, but should at least be consistent..

> IMVU is a for-profit corporate antity who's soul purpose is to make money.

I have owned and have been apart of other for-profit corporate entities and their soul purpose was not about to make money. As I suspect you're not a partner IMVU, how exactly do you know their particular goals/purpose is?

> Again, this is not a charitable agreement

We don't know what contract has been made, a proper contract would have included clauses for actions that would take place if the agreement was violated. So, how would you know?

It sounds like you've got some deep insider knowledge.

> I've been on imvu and seen how they advertise and push their points and how you have to pay $20 to reserve your username and $20 to verify you're 18.

So, you don't really have knowledge at all of what the partners in their firm are putting forward as the actual goals. You're just making assumptions based off your own customer experiences. I really feel you should have stated this information, because you make it seem like you're really all knowing about the situation and in reality, you aren't even in the know.

> Corporations are about money.

In my opinion, most corporations are founded with the goal of reducing personal risks. Having a corporation doesn't make it easier to make money.

> I own a business and I'm about making money.

I'm not sure if you're trying to create a red herring. On the assumption you have miss understand my point, that has nothing to do with my point that not all corporate entities are specifically setting profit as their sole purpose.

Reduced personal risk = lose less money, this is not the same thing.

FA is/was a corporation chartered as an LLC, this is a means of separating the owners financially so that if the company goes in to deep debt and fails, only the company and its assets are lost, not the personal assets of the owners

Most furry conventions are corporations created for the purpose of separating the organizers from the financial risk and liability inherent in running a large event, yet they are non profit.

Being a corporation does not automatically equate to money making. That said, all accounts of IMVU is that they are profit focused as a business entity, are worse at dealing with their community than Neer is, and we can only hope they honor the 'hands off' approach that Neer claims they have agreed to take with owning FA.

> Reduce personal risks = make money

I guess all those non-profits, hobby groups etc. that are incorporated don't need to reduce their personal risks then, since they aren't out for profit.

I don't know, none of us know and that's the point. We were kept in the dark deliberately which I find shady and contemptuous on Dragoneers part. Everything about this reeks of scandal and deception, can you blame me? Where is the track record suggesting otherwise?

> We were kept in the dark deliberately

Based off this comment, we can believe you have all the facts and based on it's negative connotations, we know it was for evil too.

> Everything about this reeks of scandal and deception, can you blame me? Where is the track record suggesting otherwise?

The irony of Dragoneer doing straight talking and making transparent posts resulting in comments like this. If Dragoneer just stopped being transparent and stopped talking to the community, we'd have much less drama. Even your post wouldn't exist.

Haha, I see. You're obviously a shill for the establishment. Nevermind.

> You're obviously a shill for the establishment.

Obviously! You may have noticed that my comments are particularly identifying points that make a poster seem to be all knowing about the situation yet provide no evidence (or the irony of comments) and that makes me a shill!

Sex on the executive desk is still fun.

I'm a fox, I go under the desk.

Yeah, well *you're* obviously a false-flag operative! Now IMVU can temporarily disable the site and blame it on anti-IMVU activists, just like the 1933 Reichstag Fire! How much is IMVU paying you, huh?



Gee, you're right, wild accusations without evidence sure are fun!

Perfect.

I agree with you on number 3 and others afterwards related. I find it hard to trust our content without access to the agreement we are being subjected to. If we unite like so many others have and stopped using this site, it would force IMVU to prove to us, by making their agreement with FA public, that they don't intend to do anything sketchy with our content.

Also, numbers 6, 7, 8, and 9 can not be proven with out the agreement between IMVU and FA in the terms of sale because Business documents like that are not shared publicly

+1 all of that ^^

Just to point out regarding the copyright claim, since I've dealt with similar worries as moderator of another site and people tend to do this when they read a TOS for the first time:

FA's terms of service describe a standard agreement for a site which hosts user-generated content. By using the service, you grant a non-exclusive right for the service to deliver your content to their users (otherwise you would have to manually approve access for each individual pageview) and grant them certain licenses to host your content without paying you royalties. In return, you get the hosting of your content.

These rights would have to have been transferred to IMVU during the change of ownership, otherwise they would have had to delete the entire site's content database since they would no longer have permission to either store it or allow other users to access it.

It's important that the right is non-exclusive: in other words, you are free to use your intellectual property elsewhere. Transferring actual ownership of copyright must be done in writing and signed by you.

http://copyright.gov/title17/92chap2.html

"204 . Execution of transfers of copyright ownership

(a) A transfer of copyright ownership, other than by operation of law, is not valid unless an instrument of conveyance, or a note or memorandum of the transfer, is in writing and signed by the owner of the rights conveyed or such owner's duly authorized agent."

A court would be highly unimpressed if the entire defence was "well, we put an ambiguously worded statement in the TOS and they didn't stop using the site."

A very good post, informative and referenced. Thank you! :) You're very collected and knowledgeable. May I ask you some things? (Feel free not to answer if not. There's just getting to be lag and difficulty in getting to replies, so I'm making as few as possible.)

In a previous reply somewhere, Dragoneer said they (INVU) could use screencaps of FA for advertising. In theory, this means our art, avatars, conversations...all are possibly fair game.

Now, if I went to IMVU HQ and took a picture of their building and logo, and used it in advertising, it would violate their copyright. Why can they do the same but in reverse? Or...can they? Would that constitute an illegal "taking" on their part?

What about Dragoneer, in a different prior comment, being unsure if they gained the right to sell prints and such, or is that covered by your original reply? I know the language used on another site during an initial submission seemed to convey that right by the user posting art, but some say that isn't true, just clunkily worded, as it is an option but not a requirement.

To any mod seeing this, it is a legitimate question, not trolling or disparaging in any way, so please do not remove or anything. I just would like some clarity...and poring through the three recent notification / update journals with cumulatively over 4000 comments...I just can't do. @_@

In general the purpose of copyright laws is to prevent people making money out of something that they do not own; when you're thinking of how they'd be applied, you want to look at whether there is money being made by the work being present that would not be made without it. (The reverse is true for things like commentary videos, where you're looking at whether the second author's additions create something which has value in and of itself)

I believe the first point would be ok: since the site already provides the content in the screenshot for free, using a particular snapshot to advertise isn't really any different from delivering your content to a user of the site normally (for example, a screenshot of the frontpage at a particular time is the image you would deliver to any regular user when you took it, so would only be infringement if that was). In addition, the thing being advertised is the site: the ad itself brings in revenue only indirectly by bringing in more users. Bear in mind this would have to be screenshots of the site and not specific works; if they were trying to do something like an artist's banner that focuses on specific pieces, they would have to license those pieces.

You actually flat-out wouldn't be prosecuted for taking a photograph of IMVU's building even if you intended to sell it (though some states may require you to get a permit) as long as you were on public property when you took the photograph; in cases of photography, the photographer is considered to be the artist, not the creator of the original thing (unless the photograph can functionally replace the original thing, as with, say, photographing every page of a book). If it didn't work that way, you would never have seen a skyline photograph of a city because it would be too expensive to license it. But this is more like say, if you took a photo of the building but captured a Ford, a BMW and a Chevy in the car park; nobody is going to pay more for that image because you can see anyone's specific trademarked manufacturer logos in it. In general logos get removed from commercial television because the owner of the brand in question is not paying money to advertise on that show; this is to prevent, say, backroom deals where an actor is paid to wear a particular brand of sunglasses to bypass paying the production company for an actual deal to advertise those sunglasses.

Selling prints would only be legal with your explicit permission (he might have been talking about them setting up a print-on-demand service, I suppose) because your artwork being in the print is what creates the value of the print; they certainly wouldn't be able to do it without cutting you in or asking you, since you don't have a contract with them to give them those rights. The original agreement (the TOS) that work was submitted under only grants permission for a limited license for the specific purpose of operating the site itself.

Thank you very much for your reply! It's very logical and makes good sense.

While I'd prefer not being in any of their advertising whatsoever myself, an incidental tiny picture of an icon or shot of the site that happens to have several nondescript thumbnails of art would be as seen by someone on the site. A closeup would not.

In the photo example, I was correlating more to someone using that image in advertising, but I suppose that falls under the same thinking, an incidental visual in the background versus a closeup or specific focus on a logo.

Yeah, movie and television spots get particularly finicky. All those cars with nondescript, blank grilles or blacked out geometric shapes...Product placement is a whole new ball of wax.

It's possible. That's been...quite a lot of comments ago yesterday that I saw a shot of it. It would make more sense (and less angst) for such a thing to be a separate agreement for each piece, and not strung into an upload procedure that could be seen as shady and scare off the upload, which generates views and traffic. It would be cutting themselves off at the knees. (Plain language should replace or accompany boilerplate legalese for such things, as the average person just doesn't understand a good share of it, and it gets confusing.)

Thank you very much for your time and answers. You've been very helpful!

As an additional point, given the amount of content involving popular characters on FA, if IMVU actually did claim it owned the IP rights to everything on FA they would more or less instantly get themselves demolished in court, and we wouldn't have to be the ones to do it. Much as they don't tend to go after individual artists because it's not worth it even if they win, I'm sure, say, Nintendo or Sega would be very interested in a company claiming it owned exclusive rights to thousands of pictures of their characters.

You're actually only the second person I've seen mention this. Their scenario is a bit...negative, if there is a suit for such reason, with changes to accepted content that gradually get tighter.

One of the drawbacks to being part of a big parent company...bigger problems of theirs become the subsidiary's as well.

I prefer to think about your example. ^^

FA was a company before, even if it wasn't a very large one (Ferrox Art LLC). Safe Harbour provisions would protect them and IMVU from direct liability for their users' content (like I said, unless they're stupid enough to claim it's actually theirs in which case they're directly liable for any and all infringements) and so it would only be a problem if they start ignoring DMCA notices. And since the IP owners of copyrighted characters haven't been sending DMCA notices to Ferrox, I don't see why they'd suddenly start sending them to IMVU.

I always kind of figured that's at least partially why Ferrox was a LLC, limiting their liability and the owner's personal culpability.

One can hope.

While speaking of DMCA, Everyone deleting their gallery is effectively losing their upload date / date of publication. I understand why they are, but that's part of the documentation for a DMCA, I would think.

Oh...oh...I wish anyone who read this would have their mind changed by it.

Unfortunately everyone's hardened against ANY facts by now

Newsflash, businesses are in business to make money. They don't do this shit for free.

Also it's sole, not soul.

I can't find anything I don't agree with about this. It truly reeks of some scandal or hidden motive. I remember when IMVU just came out; their ads were EVERYWHERE. I've never been on their site and never plan to since my computer believes it's spam. xD I have however seen how some of their members feel about this change and I remember reading, "What about the adult art? They sell/do that stuff on that site!" So it's obviously not allowed there. I'm sure IMVU will make plans to make us pay to see/post our sexy stuff in the near future.
Most of the artists I follow or work with have already decided to post where else they do business on in case it becomes to unbearable here. Shame though, since this is one of the more popufur places to connect with other furs. -_-
Why Neer would sell the site is beyond me; I don't know much about the guy at all, really. But IMVU owns it now and he is just an employee so you're right- he can be fired at the drop of the hat and they'd be none the wiser for it.
The ads are going to be a pain. Our members here actually pay to post ads so won't that decrease how often a particular ad is seen by other members if IMVU's ads are shown?
Whatever IMVU's true intentions are, I doubt they are just to... 'improve the site'. Most likely it's for the revenue. And while they may not want to change things now, I'm certain there will be major changes when this hype dies down..

And for those thinking some of us are paranoid, think of all those that make a living off of commissions. While I don't personally agree with how that's their only source of income since it can be so unreliable, it is how they make their living. There are other sites, but this one caters to furries or to the furry fanbase specifically. The site is free, you don't need to purchase any widgets or anything to set up commissions like dA does.
Maybe some of us are paranoid, but we have reason to be honestly. This is a big change. No matter how you look at it.

Totally agree with this, it's a bullshit.

Yup Youre addressing most/ if not all concerns I have about everything

So...exactly WHAT content to YOU have that IMVU is going to hijack?

needs editing

additional thing to consider for #12:

The official statement says "The SALE of the site did not take place until January", that's very different from "there were no talks/negotiations of sale before/during the donation drive".

Should we believe that a CEO of a business like IMVU (which I assume doesn't have stacks of superfluous money laying around like Apple) woke up on January 1st and though "You know what we need? To buy ourselves a weird fetish site" and closed the deal within a month?
So there were no overtures to check if D is willing to sell at all and what order of money he's expecting, no negotiations of contract terms, no time used to seek outside council on legality and at least checking for the loopholes the buyer might use to dethrone the senior admin?

Only got through a couple of the Rebuttals but I can agree on the most part with this as a whole.
You don't purchase an entire flipping plot of internet space just to advertise. It just isn't a convincing investment.
And of course they have our personal info, we had to use at least some sort of PI to register with the site to begin with.
And think of all the links most people put on their profiles that link them to multiple other social networking sites.
That's a gateway to even more private information that said buyer of FA can now attempt to tap into.

i mean as soon as they took over they have been banning accounts left and right they banned all my old ones and i had to make a new one today watch them ban this one too

Sorry for the double post. My vision isn't very good and I screwed up the first one, it didn't paste properly. Hopefully this is more readable.

1) Why Sell to IMVU?

IMVU's offer and their genuine desire to leave Fur Affinity as a completely independent group is what convinced me that this was the right thing to do. They offered us a budget and financial assistance to improve the site, while still leaving us independently run.

REBUTTAL: Really? IMVU is a for-profit corporate antity who's soul purpose is to make money. They clearly see something in FA that they want and it's not the hardware or code on the site, it's the user base and user generated content created by and for the Furry Community. This transaction was not an act of charity and seeing as how FA has nothing substantial to bring to the table other than it's content and user base, suggesting otherwise is frankly insulting to our intelligence. Making the claim that IMVU will not eventually influance or change how FA and it's users are allowed to operate is inherantly dishonest.

2) How does this affect me?
It does not. FA is run independently of IMVU, and will continue to be a furry site RUN by furries. The only difference you will see is IMVU will add some unobtrusive third party ads and, with their financial help, the site will improve. You get a better site in the end.

REBUTTAL: Again, this is not a charitable agreement, IMVU ultimately wants something in return for their investment. Nothing so far has been spelled out in clear terms as to the motivation for doing this. And "we want to make it better" is not an explaination. We want concrete evidence not vauge flowery retoric. It would greatly boost the credibility of both FA and IMVU by disclosing the contracts online for the community to review.

3) What are the details of the agreement?
Business documents like terms of sale are not shared publicly and this is not an exception to that standard. It falls under under NDA (Non Disclosure Agreement). In addition, there has been talk about IMVU being a publicly traded company - it is not.

REBUTTAL: I find this rather convenient and disingenious given the fact that the users of FA which generate the content and traffic are intrinsically linked to the value of FA. We as the content creators and users have a stake in this transaction yet we've been cut out of any input/opinion during negotiations behind our backs. Yet we're supposed to just accept their word? It's laughable. I find it difficult in light such deception to "just trust us". The content creators and users of FA have everything to lose here. This latest excuse does not inspire a sense of good faith between FA/IMVU and the user base.
IMVU (and their board) are well aware of our content and what we host, and are fine with the site as-is.

REBUTTAL: Really? That doesn't jibe with IMVU's TOS or operations on their other properties. Where is your evidence for this assertion? Are we really to believe that given the strict rules and guidelines IMVU applies to it's other properties will not at some point be applied here on FA? It is inherantly dishonest to say this. The FA user base can not reasonably believe that IMVU will never change how FA is operated. There are many examples of content on FA that IMVU would never allow or wish to attach themselves to. It would be a liability to IMVU's other business relations. We simply can not believe this.

4) What does IMVU get out of this?
They get to use our site for advertising from their third-party partners who are interested in engaged users like ours who share a common interest - art. In addition, IMVU has a rather large furry segment which benefits from FA, and likewise, FA members can benefit from IMVU’s offerings.

REBUTTAL: The get to USE? OUR? site? Wait a minute, doesn't IMVU OWN Furaffinity now? It sure does! Either IMVU owns FA or it does not own FA! Make up our minds! What kind of pathetic double-talk is this? As for common interests, what common interests? Art? In comparison to FA, IMVU is a joke. And what does "large furry segment" mean exactly? I nor most other furries responding to this thread have never even heard of IMVU until the other day and those that have used it found the experience mediocre at best. Honestly, what are you talking about?

5) Who is the site admin now?
Dragoneer, and he has been given complete independence and authority by IMVU to run the site as he sees fit, and has been given budget to make the improvements the site has sorely needed. He works for IMVU, and is tasked with improving the the site full time.

REBUTTAL: Oh, I'm sure Dragoneer 'You will accept my authorataaaa!, will remain the incompetent site admin of FA just long enough for IMVU to replace him. He is now an employee that can be fired and replaced. Given Dragoneers track record for "improving the sire", I'm not inspired with a lot of hope. Brilliant just absolutely brilliant move there.

6) What about our content? Does IMVU now own rights to it?
No. IMVU does not own, have any rights, take commission from etc for any of your art shared/sold here. It is business as usual, and there are no changes planned in regards to that. You will not be required to sell your content as part of IMVU’s catalog, nor will IMVU have access to use your content as they see fit. Some quotes about “Section 9” of a document have been floating around but that section does not exist.

REBUTTAL: No? Says who? This is critical in order to keeping FA alive. I'd like to see that in writing by both IMVU and FA. Not on some post but in the contract. Without proof of this assertion, we the FA user base and content creators have NO reasonable expectation to believe a word of this unless it is put into writing where we can see it for ourselves. Given the level of dishonesty we will rightfully remain suspicious of this claim. Now that IMVU owns FA, who is to say otherwise?

7) Do we have new content policies?
No. IMVU's [Terms of Service and content policies do not apply to content shared/sold on our site. There is not going to be any banning of content/users. FA's site policies that are currently in place will continue to be applicable. While there are minor changes (mostly clarifications) to the AUP coming next week, IMVU has not suggested, nor requested, any changes be implemented to the site other than some upcoming advertising changes. It is our goal to integrate the ads in a non-obtrusive way (like our current ads).

REBUTTAL: Again put it in writing or this is yet another empty statement backed by nothing.
And on that note: all existing advertising will be honored, and will be kept as-is.

8) Have you given IMVU our information? Do they have access?
No, and the sharing of FA user data/personal information is NOT part of our agreement and thus will not be happening in the future. FA data is FA data, and will not be shared with IMVU or used for marketing purposes.

REBUTTAL: No? Are we honestly to believe that IMVU does not have access to our PMs and other personal information? THEY OWN THE SITE! This is such a dishonest claim and insulting to our intelligence. Are we to believe FA will hold hostage the data away from it's new owner IMVU? Come on now. How stupid do you think we are!

9) Are you going to have paid accounts/subscriptions etc?
We have no plans to introduced paid account/subscriptions. If that were to happen in the future it would be site’s the decision, and one which would have to be thought over very carefully. However, we have no plans to do so at this time.

REBUTTAL: "We have no plans..." Oh I'm sure FA has no plans, but that is not to say that IMVU has no plans! You better believe paywalls and premium accounts are in our future at some point. To believe otherwise is just foolish.

10) Are any IMVU staff on the administration/mod team?
With exception of Dragoneer (who was brought on to IMVU staff to maintain and run the site), IMVU is hands-off and the site will continue to be run as it always has been: by furries, for furries.

REBUTTAL: "IMVU is hands off" I'm shaking my head in disbelief at the utter contempt shown to the FA user base at this statement. All I can say is if IMVU is hands off, FA is doomed regardless. Everyone knows the track record of the "senior admin".

I realize there is nothing any amount of bitching about what's happened will change the situation, I just hate to see the furry community used like a condom then tossed aside. We deserve better than what's happened here.

also I would like to ask. How do you know the motives of a company you dont work for. Everyone wants to make money. I would be willing to bet you wanna make money. And sometimes you can make money without being a dick and ruining things for other people. IMVU sees profit in advertizing here and keeping this site going. Because there are a LOT of furries who would like that kind of thing. Look at all the people on here who play second life! IMVU is kinda the same thing. So having a huge site where tons of furries go would make sense.

Mine or others desire to make money is not in dispute. it's the way things went down with this transaction that I find disgusting. Furaffinity without it's user base and generated content is worthless. There is a motivation here yes but thus far it has not been spelled out in believable and completely open and honest terms by Dragoneer. I don't trust him and there are obvious reasons for that. Can you show me a reason why I should in light of this situation? Can we honestly believe anything he says anymore after this stunt. As for IMVU, have a look at their Better Business Beural page http://www.bbb.org/losangelessilico.....868/complaints I rest my case.

Dude, if you dont like it, leave. If you think Dragoneer is out to ruin your entire furry life then just leave, go somewhere else! there are other sites, Weasyl, Ink bunny, So furry. There are IRC networks like Anthrochat, Furnet, the sofurry IRC. There are minecraft servers, even Yiff Star is around if you look real hard! THAT PLACE IS GOD DAMN OLD!

You are probably a nice dude. I dont like yelling at nice dudes. But you gotta just trust that Neer is gonna come through for us. Also it isnt really your chice anyway. This is his site, we are just allowed to be here and use it for art and our weird furry culture stuff. You dont realize how much you take for granted here! If Dragoneer sold the site then that is fine, it is his to sell, and it is still his to operate! He can kick you off if he wanted to. Not that I would want you kicked off. Anyway. There is nothing you can do about it so relax, let things run their course. And if it fails you can laugh and say you were right. Pissing and moaning about it is only going to stress you out.

Blind loyalty is a fools choice.

Yeah you are right. What was I thinking. Fuck it all anyway. This site was shitty anyway.

I've been on this site for a decade (this is a newer account, having moved from an older one), and I've seen little to no improvement in that entire time along with a very narrow pattern in how things have been handled on the administration side of things. All of that in and of itself has made me very cynical and doubtful that this will result in much good for the community, if anything at all. It's such an incredibly sudden paradigm shift that it is upsetting to a lot of people for good reason. Instead of offering to sell the site to any number of responsible people that have the money and time (and have offered in the past to buy it numerous times), a singular decision was made to sell it with a contract and promise of employment to a corporate entity, the terms of said deal which are conveniently hidden behind an NDA, and the whole thing was not revealed to the community until two months after the fact.

We as a whole would like to see this site improve and become a much more solid community center for the fandom. We don't want to see it go away or change from its core spirit, so it is very understandable why people are very upset over what's gone down. With how things have gone both past and present there isn't a lot of trust and goodwill there to back it up and I cannot trust that this move was done with either the best of intentions or for entirely pragmatic reasons. Along with everyone else I myself would love to see good things happen and regardless I am holding on to some hope that we'll see it happen.

...hm...

From personal experience, the BBB is PURE BULLSHIT and has been for decades.

I work for a company that used to be a member of theirs until it was discovered that if we ever fell behind on the monthly fees, our rating would immediately tank. We were told by multiple reps there that once we caught up on our fees, our rating would be reinstated. An entity's rating with a board that prides itself on upholding said entity's reputation purely on work ethic should NOT judge that reputation as tarnished just because they didn't pay the damn fees. Remove it from your list of referable companies, sure! But, keep it on the list and then drop them from an A+ rating to an F??

To make matters worse, one customer (the ONLY negative rating our company ever received in the 24 years it's been in business) felt he has been so mistreated that he needed to post a complaint on their site, and then did so.... 3 fucking times. Different names on each post.

Here's the best part... He used MY NAME as one of the posters!! ... This happened 2 years ago and it STILL infuriates me, because we lose potential customers over false information that the BBB refuses to remove from their website. We have been trying to resolve this for that whole time.

So, you go ahead and decide the worst because you read something on the internet. After all, they can't put anything that's not true on the internet.

Know where I read that?

You know the rest.

Look at all these people jumping on you for actually putting effort into deconstructing this event with an eye on the bigger picture.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

I'm used to it. What can I say, I love railing against injustice in the system every chance I get.

Wow, fuck you, self righteous asshole. You wouldn't know injustice if it stabbed you in the eye.

Injustice?

Better make sure you've actually researched every single angle of this before you claim your expertise there, friend.

Because, right now, those of us with some actual experience and knowledge in business are just shaking our heads at you over this. It's statements like yours that are going to ruin this site, not this so-called "shady biz".

And, for the record, the reason you and everyone else didn't hear about this sooner is because in business there is such a thing as a "non-disclosure agreement" which prevents the immediate parties from being able to discuss these matters until the deal is 100% finalized. That's a legal thing. It means Dragoneer can't bring it up to US until the end of the deal. Just because they came to an agreement in January, there is still a grace period of about 2 months, for him and the people at IMVU to back out of the deal if they should so choose. While that grace period is in effect, neither side and announce, discuss, reveal or even chat about it over lunch TO ANYONE.

We're the users. But, THEY are the owners. They don't actually, in reality, owe us JACK. They're already giving us a community to exist in for free. There is no risk to you or any of us.

Leave if you don't like it. Nobody here is trying to stop you if this goes against your sensibilities. But, don't try to sound like the guy with the bullhorn that's trying to tell us all the "wake up people!". 'Cuz you sound like an asshole when you do that.

Paranoia and distrust isn't effort.

It is when there is proven history justifying it.

Except you don't actually have that at all.

that's how shoe kissers are :C

Indeed. Just look at ziggyfox, good god >.>

And you still didn't correct "antity" to "entity", "who's" to "whose", or "soul" to "sole". And that's just your first rebuttal.

Congratulations on putting in proper spacing between lines, though! That's a definite step up.

I am sorry but I had to reply. Sometimes, grammar isn't everything an argument have to offer, it may be really important at your eyes (and is important at times) but please be considerate.

Thank you

I am and have been very considerate.

I agree with every point you make. Unfortunately, trying to talk sense into people isn't going to work. Just let them fail. Dragoneer will be gone in 6 months and IMVU will radically transform FA into something different in 2 years. How do I know this? Because I can see that snowball rolling down the hill and I think you see it too.

IMVU will change FA's policies probably in 3 months. It has the power to do that. It also has money which means, as owner of FA, any company disgruntled with the content of FA can now go after someone with money: IMVU. It's no longer some guy named Dragoneer/Sean who doesn't have enough assets to cover lawyer costs and pay out significant damages. IMVU absolutely have that money. Disney, Nintendo, Microsoft, Bandai, and others will go after licensed character porn on FA because it's easy money. If IMVU isn't planning for this now then they will pretty quickly once the legal threats start flying. This will cause IMVU to change FA's policies to protect itself and it's investment.

Dragoneer will be compelled to go along with this. His love of Digimon will tear him apart though. He won't want to go along with this new prohibition on licensed character adult art. It will cause him to start behaving oddly or plot ways to undo what IMVU will do in order to carve out some space for the stuff he loves. This in turn will piss off IMVU who will very rapidly make the decision to part with a human measured in tens of thousands of dollars rather than the millions that would be extracted via an IP infringement case. I give this 6 months to happen.

The resulting turmoil from the policy change and leadership change will trigger another exodus of content creators. It'll be especially strong if Weasyl upgrades their site and the Bad Dragon team actually completes their furry community site. This will cause IMVU to redefine FA and radically change it within 2 years to keep some sort of value from this deal. IMVU does not want to lose money for its investors.

So yes, preach your concerns because they are valid and entirely predictable. But also diversify your activity on other sites. Oh, and get yourself some snacks like a huge tub of popcorn. You're going to need it. We're just getting started here!

Thank you, wouldn't said this better than you.

Whoops. I didn't see this cleaned up post. Thanks for cleaning your post up.

LOUD NOISES

TWICE

if you're really just reposting as a grammar edit, delete the one up above. Blockbuster posts ate bad enough. A near carbon copy double is downright obnoxious.

Will anyone be my friend on MySpace?

I mean seriously come on. Who the hell has heard of IMVU? It's a third rate Second Life wanna-be platform that hasn't gotten off the ground in 10 years. It's blood sucking, money grabbing business practices are a huge turn off. No self respecting furry is going to go their and be ass-raped by constant fees and other charges every time they turn around. Hell you don't even get lube or a kiss for your effort! Not going to happen. This was a terrible idea. These two sites have nothing in common. Bottom line, there is nothing you can do on IMVU that you can't do superiorly on Second Life or other furry sites FREE OF CHARGE.

Anyway, I've said all I'm going to say on this. I wouldn't have bothered to raise these concerns if I didn't care about the furry community. A community full of amazing, talented and creative people who I revear and respect greatly. I don't ever want to see that go away just so someone can make a few bucks. I'm sorry if I upset some of you with my assertiveness, but this means something to me as I hope it means something to you. Ultimately Dragoneer or IMVU or whoever the hell owns this thing better realize that without us, this ship sinks. Time will tell. *gets off his soap box*

I suppose the last thing I'll say about this is... have faith in the furry community. I know your faith in Dragoneer and FA's administration is probably shattered, and probably not much can be done about that at this point. But even if the worst happens and this means the end of FA, it won't be the end of the furry community or furry networks.

When people got sick of Usenet (how I originally found furrydom, 22 years ago...), artists started uploading to VCL and Furnation. When those ended up not cutting the mustard, artists set up on Deviant Art. When that wasn't furry enough, they went to the DeviantArt clone, SheezyArt. When SheezyArt banned porn, everyone left in droves (who even remembers there was a SheezyArt now?) and joined FurAffinity. Some day, and it's inevitable, FA will die. People will gather somewhere else, somewhere better. Sure, there will be growing pains. We'll probably lose a lot of history (pretty much the reason why people -don't- leave FA now); some of my favorite furry art has been lost to the sands of time.

Change isn't always good (damn you Sofurry!), and there are usually growing pains involved. But it's not something to be scared of. We're a people who like close and open contact with each other. We'll always always find some way to survive and build something collaborative.

lolwut

Clarification:

The advertising that we are talking about is not ads for the IMVU service on FA site. We will be monetizing the FA site traffic by selling ad space to third parties - ads will be unobtrusive and targeted to the community interests.

Non-VIPs on IMVU do see third party display ads on our website.

Thank you
_________________
Varsha - Director, Community Experience & User Safety

Sauce http://www.imvu.com/catalog/modules.....c&start=45

ducks all the ducks

2 slow

was never trying to be first comment...

Bacon :D

I saw a "bacon bowl" the other day on sale and was instantly reminded of you.

Bacon good!

You rang?

Q&A time:

Why did it take two months to announce this?

However, as some have asked, why did you guys not ask us about this?

Simple answer - it's not up to the community to make this decision.

Yeah, but Dragoneer himself said that he wanted to do what was best for the community. Wouldn't he have asked us what we thought?

Imagine this scenario:
Dragoneer's in debt.
FA is a hole in his wallet.
Site buys it up and gives him a budget.
He gets to work for them and actually make money rather than jack.
Now he can focus on his site.
All the furries rage in confusion with no business sense what so-fucking ever.
The website is free and the only way to monetize it and keep it free is advertising.

/\ This i agree with


most ppl do not realize to run FA take good bit of money between the servers and the data bills it does add up fast

Then what was the purpose in offering banner space and accepting donations over the last - what - 10 years if not to help keep the site running/pay for equipment to improve the site? If the money wasn't being used for that, what was it going towards?

You know, such a site eats money like people eat peanuts.
You can expect that most (if not all) of the money was invested into it.

Damn, I hate peanuts. :<

Stufff adds up a new server can cost between 2'000 to 8'000 a piece depending on model and extra stuff that in it repair just as pricey even then some time a expert need called in witch cost money as well and they charge a lot . Then there data bill i can imagine the data bill alone would broke the bank with neer since it had cost between estimate 400 to 1000$ a month this just estimated guess but neer might had been paying more some business pay up to $2,000 to 3,000 have that extra bandwidth so i would not be surprised neer had to pay extra amount keep this site running as smoothly as possible and i can imagine neer need financial help since donations can only do so much between all of this

All so to calm everyone is to explain the entire transition in piece and break it down for everyone to understand sorta like a legal document break down of the entire thing so it calm everyone hopefully but like every big time change there going be ppl jumping ship

Equipment and the cost of keeping the site running is rather expensive. People don't buy nearly enough banner space for these large expenses. Hence the donation drive in October...which they listed multiple times what they used it for. The more improvements that need to be made, the more expensive it can get and the handfull of people that buy banner space just isn't paying the expenses anymore.

But do we know how much money went into banner space or donating outside of donation drives - was that ever shared with the public? (the only one I can recall was the one back in October 2014).

Also don't forget the donation drive was in response to the DDOS attack that brought the site down for a week. they had to upgrade their ddos protection which is another several thousand a month fee so add on to the monthly data charge and server storage charge you're probably looking at at least a 5,000$ a month bill to keep FA running. and really that's probably low balling it. also doesn't include server upgrades and the like. you think the banner ads can generate 5000 a month? Also most businesses don't share those details with the public.

Would these "not enough people buying banner space" be the ones who keep complaining that the advertising emails never got responded to?

If the requests for a banner space would actually get answered to, sure more people would buy them. The 3 work days time it takes to get a reply totally aren't true, and if one has to wait a couple of weeks before they get a reply, and a couple more until the banner is up, then it's no surprise not many peope buy them.

Myself I'm waiting for a response some time too, now.

But seriously, if a few IMVU ads help the site to make an actual progress, why not? As long as the user's banner still are possible, and don't start to cost an impossible amount of money, things should be allright. And if Dragoneer is working on FA fulltime now, then maybe the emails for buying banner space get replied to faster too! Let's have a bit of hope. At least a very little bit. ^^;

bacon.

True but without its users FA would be nothing.

yeah but if the person who runs it ends up too broke too then it gets shut down and is absolutely nothing.

And server-grade hard drives ain't cheap either. People take free sites for granted.

*thumb up*

^ this has been one of the most logical and best comments out there ever

Oh to start a popular online social site like FA and get a job (eventually) with a corporation! Yay!!
(my HTML skills are seriously rusty, btw)

What nobody realizes is that IMVU isn't going to maintain any of it's promises. They'll do it slowly, of course, so we don't notice and people can more easily ignore it.

This is going to be nothing but bad for FA in the long term. There will be short term benefits, but those won't matter when the site is gone or transformed into something neither for furries or by furries.

Fuck off you idiot! Did you even read anyhting? Not to mention none of us got o even see these agreement documents, and we never will. They bought FA for shared interests between FA to IMVU and IMVU to FA. Your forgetting that here is only so much one person or group or entity can accomplish on its own. Use your brain next time. This isn't some lame valve money making scheme. A high school graduate or higher would know better. I may not know where all the puzzles pieces fit, but I at least know it takes more than pride, joy, and happiness to keep the site running!

When you actually stop to think about it, people's reactions to the whole scenario are actually laughably insulting.

Do people honestly believe that it was Dragoneer's mandatory responsibility to plunge himself in to debt to keep the website running when he personally receives no tangible benefit from it?
Yet artists and commissioners use his website/service, for free, to make a transaction and turn a personal profit; and he *still* asks nothing for it.

He would've been well within his rights to shut the entire project down to save himself financially, and not even be required to offer any explanation for his actions at all. At least by selling to IMVU, he has alleviated his financial problems and surrendered all of the stressful responsibilities he's hung around his neck. (Which, admittedly, he did himself; the point being he didn't need to do it in the first place.)

It's a joke to say that Dragoneer is giving them the middle finger, when they've been doing it to him for the entire duration.

I'm glad someone finally said it.

I might not always be happy with how things are handled here on fa, but I know how stressful this must be for Dragoneer and the other admins. They all put personal time, effort and money into keeping the site running. I know that if it wasn't for fa, I wouldn't have my own place right now. This site has helped me make a strong enough commission base to actually support myself. I make hundreds every month and I know many others on here do as well. And for what? Nothing.

I know as the people that keep this site alive we should have some say in things. I mean, if not for the community, FA wouldn't be a thing. But do you all really think the decision of selling FA should have been left to the users? That's honestly laughable. Half of you can't look at a fetish you dislike on the front page without losing your cool and attacking the poster. How do you expect to make a huge financial decision that may possibly sway the very future of the website?

I'm sick of broken promises and lack of updates like the rest of you, but gosh cut them some slack.

Whilst the idea of a furry community is nice, in relation to how FA operates, and how professional artists operate, it's irrelevant.

The biggest case in point here: YCH auctions.

Let's simplify the two choices Dragoneer faces regarding his financial situation. He can either sell the website, or he can hit the off switch.
Now consider how a YCH auction functions. You might have several accounts on several different websites, but ultimately, YCHs can only realistically be posted in any one place in order for those potentially interested in bidding to keep track.

As an artist, you're cheerfully two hours away from your auction closing. FurryA has bid $300 on the red character, FurryB has bid $200 on the green character, and furryC has bid $200 on the blue character. Blissfully unaware of the problems, Dragoneer has finally chosen this moment in time to hit the off switch. You're stuck in limbo. Has the auction closed? Are the bids validated? What about any higher potential bids you might've gotten? Has the artist missed value?

What I find absolutely hilarious is the sheer hypocrisy here. People expect Dragoneer to have guarantees in place, and whilst they seek to operate a hugely profitable operation of their own, they can't supply the same guarantees for their work because the fiscal exchange is masked by FA being a community, not a business. If you offer and turn over a YCH piece every week and make $500 and can successfully do this for 4 weeks in a month, you're making $2,000 a month. Contribution to FA / Dragoneer for enabling? $0

And all the time they're whilstling with their middle finger posted high, towards anyone that dare wants to say to them that YCH are a bit unethical in terms of what you get from a standard flat rate commission. And because of the community ethos, they don't need to defend themselves for it.

^THIS

Given the amount of cash spent on commissions that were ordered SOLELY because the artist is on FA an insignificant 1% "providing the platform to sell tax" would keep the site (including the staff) well funded.

Introducing something like that might have been preferable to the IMVU buyout.

Given that anywhere else where you want to put an item up for sale or auction, you'd need to pay commission to the host for their services, again, how would that not have been an unreasonable expectation?

Whilst it would've been a nice idea, I wouldn't doubt furries to throw their arms up in the air and cry "scandal!" at that too.

Again, my argument has always been that I don't think FA was ever meant to be designed to accommodate for business / transactions. It was just something that mutated over time. Before the internet became a big thing and hit mainstream, talking about unusual sexual fetishes with other people in real life was just awkward and not done, because you couldn't talk about it with any anonymity. The internet enabled that, which is principally why you have furry art show rooms in the first place. It was a safe place to talk about it, share / create resources, and meet like-minded people. Society has evolved to some degree now though to accept that. So really, the principal reason for places like FA, VCL, FurNation for existing has become a bit redundant - at least in the sense that it isn't just about social connection anymore. Furries don't just get to browse to see what's out there any more, they can dictate and trade for an image or product that they want.

An FA user who actually understands how money/business works?! INCONCEIVABLE!

*standing ovation* couldn't of said it better myself

There's an awesome amount of logic behind this decision from a financial perspective. Wether or not furs see that will depend on their personal beliefs.

Yeah I'm going with this too because furries are fucking manchildren with no business sense LEAST THAT'S WHAT THIS SITE HAS SHOWN ME THE PAST NINE YEARS so I agree this is a legit good business proposition to keep the site running.

I mean, yeah I think IMVU's stuff looks really retarded but money be good.

Dude you said what I was thinking o-o

tl;dr Nothing in the universe is free, my friend.

As Apple put it, if you aren't paying for the product, you are the product.

I can still say 'inb4 someone flames me for this post'. It hasn't happened.

But then again I repeat the truth.

Agreed. Tech is not run by pure democracy, so as long as FA isn't exposed or taken advantage of, this is a good direction. If anyone had checked the donation section that was hidden under layers of the help section, there's plenty of education on the debts that FA incurs monthly... 3k in debt from lack of independent donations, if I remember from a year ago(when I checked last).
This was a good move as long as FA stays FA.

There's an idea. FA should have a Patreon? I've only just come around to accepting artists' Paterons, and subscribed to a couple.

You'd think so; but I guess not.

^^^^^

He owns it, his decision.

Actually he only owns half.

Considering the sale has gone through, I assume IMVU lawyers checked things out and were satisfied that 'Neer did indeed own the site.

Hrm, not really... As far as I can tell the co-owner is going to court with it BECAUSE no one checked with him. Dragoneer never owned 100% of the website, he bought it with AJ for a 50/50 split. Since then 'Neer has kinda... Took the reins to say the least, kinda erasing AJ from the known moderator world. That being said though, just because 'Neer is "head admin" and "co-owner" doesn't mean he can legally sell a website without the other owner knowing about it. If you don't believe me, AJ has publicly posted his story on his Twitter, and posted contact info emails/skype ect if you'd like his word over mine.

https://twitter.com/panderp

Hmm.

There may be some kind of confusion here, but to be honest I don't put much faith in Arcturus' claims, on account of his extremely troubled history with the site. He may have believed he owns half of the site, but been mistaken; or he may be stirring up trouble.

Source please?

Just chat with the co-owner! https://twitter.com/panderp/status/.....47385976500224
https://twitter.com/panderp

Ah, Arcturus the guy who rage-quit FA in 2005 before Dragoneer came on board. He then continued to troll the site before being banned. Didn't he even hack FA after a couple of years too?

In nearly 10 years this is the first I've heard of him having any ownership percentage here. I hope he's got something concrete to back that up because right now it seems very "he said, he said".

Aye, I remember hearing things here and there about events like that but it's not in writing, so... I guess if he was never legally kicked from the purchase/contract he has a case.

Sure it is. We create the content and drive traffic. Without us, FA has no value.

that's the key to drive traffic imvu wasn't driving traffic they were driving money and I see what your saying but fa did need an overhaul but not to this extent especially if it benefits them but I an a FA lover and I have an account with imvu too but I am on here more than there by far so that might also be the key??? they would like the traffic to be diverted to their site of course they are on to something here and I see what your saying but if it can help fa then why not???

Registered since: October 16th, 2006 07:26
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In 9 years of membership you haven't generated diddly in way of content so you're not really qualified to claim anything on behalf of the community here. I'm assuming you're just here to add fuel to the drama fire.

I'm sorry. I have a slight issue with this response, and I apologize if I come off as a snippy ass. That's truly not my intention. Without the community there is no FA. If it weren't for the users that're supplying content and making donations, the site would basically be a dust-bowl with a little forum on the side. A forum mind you that already claims to have little connection to the main site as it is.

"It's not up to the community to make this decision" just feels like a slap to the face when we're the ones giving FA a reason to even exist.

This was a business transaction. You or I aren't shareholders, and the real world doesn't revolve around our opinions. Just because we're using a website doesn't mean we have any measure of control over it. That'd be ridiculous. :P

Yeah, but it's the same idea as people voting for a law to pass in their state.

Yeah but this is a little furry art site. Not a state. Yours and my opinions don't really mean jack in the end.

I'm sorry but you don't pay money to use this site, like you pay taxes to have a government/laws, very weak comparison.

When youtube was sold to Google were you enraged that they didn't ask you beforehand?

A lot of people were. I didn't even notice it happened until I was asked to get a Google+ account before I could continue leaving inane comments on videos.

They were mad it was sold. NOT because they weren't asked beforehand.

It's not a stock registered company with a traditional hierarchy. It's not a company, it's a community. Communities require community involvement and not a top-down decision-making process with no influence by the receiving layer of users.

Actually, until the sale, it was a privately owned company owned exclusively by Dragoneer.

Don't confuse the site's content with the site itself. It's the same as thinking uploading videos to YouTube makes you a Google shareholder.

There's simply no legal basis for what you're saying.

Don't confuse my opinion with "legal basis".

I'm saying that involving the community in this process one way or another should have been done. It has not, and as a result, the community is upset. Whatever legal form the business side of running the website technically/financially was poured into is completely irrelevant.

As for your youtube remark: uploading art to FA also didn't make you a Ferrox Art investor. But it did make you part of the community it served. The community will be there whether FA exists or not.

This site privately owned is not public so dragoneer has rite do with the site since he own it since DDos i can imagine neer need some outside help keep the site going since FA grows bigger every year

It probably would have been a lot less damaging if the community was informed beforehand. The timing of the donation drive, and then being informed that the website has been sold made it suspicious to a lot of people. Not saying that you're swindling people, but that's what it looks like. Having another big company buy out a smaller company is a big deal to consumers, and I think that could have been planned a little better.

My thoughts exactly.

>Guys, I got an offer to sell fA to IMVU
>People flips shit, insults go and come, nobody lets explain anything, 'neer couldnt make thie Q&A because nothing was agreed back then, it was just a discussion. The site is DDoSed, people creates a shitstorm worse than the Zauch one, 4chan and lulz use this to seed even more rage and stuff against the staff. If the staff starts banning the people who's promoting fights then all the other users get alienated because "They dont respect our freedom of expression! fuck you dragoneer! aaaa" and then they go to Reddit and hell breaks loose.

Nah. Better just plan in peace, do what you consider best and then tell them. If they don't like it, they can well leave.

"If they don't like it, they can well leave. "

And they do. Lot of them.

Altough most of them come back one week later.

Oh, you didn't say you can see the future. I can't, so I'll wait and see...

I don't see the future, but after being in several "oh noes fa sucks now im leaving 4ever!" events where that happened, I am pretty sure things this time will be the same.

This one is different in many ways.

there was that time fa had an accused rapist on staff-- i believe that one was a fuck of a lot worse and many people did actually stay gone... but for the most part, when people piss and moan and say they're gonna leave fa "5ever", the huge majority of them come right on back a short while later. every. single. time. so basically people can see the future when it comes to that because it never fails.

In all honesty compared to some of the other sites I've been on FA is really basic in turns of features and interface. the only reason I'm here is because some of my favorite artists remain here. I hope at least FA evolves a little. It still looks like a site from the early 2000's.

That's what they said last time. I distinctly remember being promised a hacker would destroy the site, delete all artwork by everyone, and leak everyone's personal information.

Strangely, for some reason, that didn't happen.

Remember the 90 other situations where the community blew something out of proportion, left, then came back cause honestly where else do they go?

Zaush was the bigger explosion imho.

I don't find that very believable exactly because I have experience in mergers and acquisitions. You said that IMVU acquired FA in January, which means that unless this deal materialized overnight, there was a discovery and due diligence process prior to January during which metrics (such as the frequently touted "many furries") and financials are reviewed. If you didn't hash out a continuance plan during this stage and was doing the planning during the two months after the acquisition, what were you doing? Clearly not planning, given the absolutely ineptitude of your readiness to respond to the community's concerns since this announcement.

Speaking of community, you say that you were "[making] sure that both communities were on the same path." Who was making sure? You? It's absolutely insulting to think that tens of thousand of users with their intellectual creativity and property was kept utterly in the dark so that one person could decide what path the "community" wants to go.

I find it odd that a sale was concluded before these paths were finalized. You don't sell your life's work without knowiing where it's going to be taken. :P
IMHO.

Happens often in life. Much like how alot of "clean up operations" are executed before the approval is given, and then everything is written down and signed post-facto. Just how the ball rolls.

> I find it odd that a sale was concluded before these paths were finalized.

I get the impression you've never done consultancy before.

I just wanted to say thank you for posing this question, November. Ultimately, this is the main problem I had with the way FA handled this and the reason I have difficulty trusting them in the future. If the site was acquired two months ago, that's when the community needed to learn about it. Holding back important information like that is the kind of thing that raises an eyebrow and makes furs suspicious. It's also concerning from the standpoint of "What else are we going find out two months later?"

I agree with you 120%

AND , there are no plans to add premium/subscriptions "at this time." really bothers me, yes there isn't any planes at the moment, but the fact that it's still open to such disturbs me!

Why does it bother you? It's an optional feature that would bring revenue to the site, a lot of people want FA to have premium memberships with perks like DA.

Which is one of the many reasons tons of people left DA for others sites, such as this *points at self*

Uh, why? DA Premium memberships take nothing from members, it gives you bonuses but it isn't necessary to use the site. And dA has like ten times the users that FA does, so clearly it didn't impact their userbase.

Due to the way DA is designed, it's almost impossible to properly grow a watchers list without using it, since it greatly limits who and how your art can be found (I don't remember all the details, but it was beyond simply the ads and such). Not to mention paying users always got bonus admin points over non paying users over any discussion (they had to repeatedly break the rules over and over again in order to get banned or suspended). Sites like FA and similar have interfaces and are designed in such ways that anyone has equal opportunities to properly grow a following in ways so much faster than on DA.

But there's already users who get away with a lot because of how many watchers they have. I don't think a premium membership is going to change the already obvious nepotism on FA.

It could make it even worse though!

I kind of doubt that. That's just leaning towards worst case scenario. The site is already barely functional and meandering because the only income coming into it comes from ad revenue and the convention. Adding a premium membership with small bonuses (like maybe just having a service to sell prints through, or journal images like dA has) would be able to bring in more money that could go to better funding the site. In the end, it's COMPLETELY optional and takes nothing away from the current services provided.

Well, I meant make it worse as in, make the admins favoritism and bias towards users worse. But it would stirr up a lot more anger to see all the features we've been promised to have for YEARS be made suddenly "LOOK HERE YOU HAVE EM NOW! PAY US 25$ EACH MONTH TO USE EM!"

I doubt it'd be as much as $25 a month, even dA's isn't that much. A small premium service wouldn't damage anything, and it sounds more like the people who don't want it just fear the site changing at all.

I was doing a bit of hyperbole there, the point wasn't the price, it could be 5 bucks or whatever the point was what you would be paying is what the users have been promised to have for years.

If it isn't going to happen with a paid membership, then it's likely NEVER going to happen. FA has made a lot of promises that have fallen through, this doesn't make a difference and would actually benefit the site, financially.

It's likely, but it wouldn't be any less of a huge slap on the face

DeviantART's pay-to-upgrade feature was amazing when it was first released, paying and free members got the same perks, only the ones who bought a membership got EXTRA perks. Now, they've taken away basic features to free members making a free profile relatively... well... worthless. Unless you're paying for a subscription, even the most basic gallery functions are disabled which is why FA incorporating pay-to-upgrade options is worrisome, especially if it's our current admin behind the wheel.

It's ONLY about revenue, it's not about making the site easier for users. If it where, we wouldn't be running on coding from 2005 and being taken down for 3 weeks and require $26,000 to come back online when we get a single DDoS attack.

So wait what.....you did not like what you were getting for free so you left? Seems kinda silly to be pissed off about free stuff lol

I said among other things, such as the abominable administration (yeah, as much awfulness this site has... I still find DA's administration worse), not only banning people because the admins found em annoying when they told em to do their actually work, but never removing art thieves or spam after months if ever (and this was every single case), the awful community, how almost impossible to grow was without a paid subscription (as I said, in contrast to here and other sites I've been using).

The main reason was the admins tbh, the list of bs I had to put up with em directly and indirectly would make too long of a post :T

Im sorry but minus everyone besides furries who use DA, they either started there or use it for its better functioning drop file service, the reason why DA has paid services is cause it's not tailored to a single fandom, or interest. so that's why it has a MUCH BIGGER user base. iv had a few profiles in my time, stretching back to a year after FA started. it had a friendly interface that was easy to get to know. i remember all the lectures saying that this site will remain free and for all furries to call home.

you talk about features that are not even in this site, so why would they add them... they will most likely "tax" features that are already implemented. if you like DA so much and talk so highly of it... why are you even on this site.

IMVU is gonna want to make money. having their ad's here isnt gonna do much if everyone starts using ad blocker...they WILL eventually add somesort of subscription or premium server, many people like you will support it and will be the only people standing once this site dies, cause everyone who supports this site supports it cause it is free.

Im sure if weasyl had a better browse function, this site would be dead a lot sooner....but just watch... its what Im doing, stop worrying about other peoples concerns, Im not jumping ship....YET....

What else could they say? "No, from here on until the end of the world, no matter what happens, we're not going to add paid subscriptions to the site!" They can't make such an open-ended statement that would bind the site owners and administrators infinitely. What they can do is to do what they did: say that at this time, there are no such plans. People must understand that you can't have absolute guarantees that things won't change.

The whole concept and talk of 'community' is irrelevant here.
People might think it's inappropriate for Dragoneer to appoint himself as a 'community representative' (and it might well be), but as far as he's concerned, that's not really the issue, is it?

FA is not the be-all and end-all of the definition: furry community. There are other art websites/services like Weasyl and VCL. Even if you don't agree that he's a responsible 'community representative', the one thing you can't deny, is that as a representative of FA, he's ultimately the one responsible.

Would you much rather Dragoneer just said: "I need to save myself financially. Fuck you all."? And shut the site down?

I think most people would rather know that they're being screwed upfront instead of wondering if they're being screwed behind their back.

Subjective Opinion. By what definition are they being screwed?

Do you think for the artists that use FA to make a living, they would much rather wake up to find it was suddenly and unexplicably gone?

Why would the site suddenly and inexplicably go away? They would announce the site's closure probably a few weeks before it happened. Everyone would have time to move on and artists would be just fine. They would announce where they're moving and their following will follow. Sure they'll lose a few people, but it's not like they're gunna be suddenly out of business just because FA went away.

Your scenario makes no sense unless Dragoneer just decided to be a dick for no reason lol.

It's hypothetical, of course. But if I was in a situation where I put myself in to debt to maintain a website, not necessarily caring about the consequences at the time, but having the consequences eventually catch up with me, only to be attacked by that 'community' for not having my shit together considering hardly any of them have probably contributed towards my operational expenditure, I might decide to be a bit of a dick in return.

At no point along the way have any of the users of FA legitimately gained any rights to comment on how Dragoneer chooses to operate *his* website. But they feel they've gained that through entitlement because they rely on it so heavily to make money or make their living. If they were actually paying for the service and were unsatisfied with his operational decision, (and if Dragoneer relied on and actually expected the finance from this of course), the logical thing for them to do would be to stop their subscription and take their business to another provider, and it might actually have an impact on the decisions he makes.

Ultimately, I wouldn't be too sure that the artists would be 'just fine', as FA is part of a niche, albeit for-the-moment a free one. If you want furry pornography, there are plenty of places on the internet you can go. But where do you go if you want to commission an artist for furry pornography? Do you even know who you want to commission? As an observer, this is where I believe the true value of FA lies. My observation is that FA's purpose is / was to serve as a platform for artists to seek exposure, but was never intended as a direct platform for them to actually conduct any business. If they wanted to do that professionally, and with a degree of their own control, they should have their own website for such activity. (The majority obviously don't. There is a degree of anonymity to how you can conduct yourself on FA and other free providers, whereas if you actually wanted to finance a project website yourself, you'd need to expose yourself to people and resources for what is still a largely taboo subject matter that is furry pornography. The majority of furry artists are just WAY to uncomfortable with doing that. So to behave towards someone who has actually enabled you to do that, through no deliberate intent; I would find it quite insulting.)

FA isn't unique in any way for artists though. There are several sites that do the exact same thing as FA, some better than FA does. I personally think FA is one of the weakest sites for furries in terms of features and functionality. The only reason it is popular is because it was decent when it came out. Since then though the site has seen very little in terms of functionality improvements. People don't want to leave simply because they are invested in FA. They spent years getting their page to where it is now with their watch list, favs, submissions, and so on. It's a lot of work to move and a lot of people aren't willing to do it.

If every artist decided to up and move to say... Weasyl, they would do just fine. They would find a following there, many people would follow them who used to follow them on FA. There is nothing that FA provides that other sites don't already cover and then some.

So... are you trying to justify all the people who are whining at Dragoneer, because they're just too idle to move to another 'free' website?

If they aren't happy with the direction he's chosen to take the website, they SHOULD leave. They don't though, (or they'll be back) because it's the popularity and the traffic through FA that gives them the exposure enabling them to get commissions. If Weasyl or others offer better functionality, why not base your primary operation there? Again, it's the popularity and therefore exposure and traffic that FA generates, not the functionality, that is the value behind FA.

If everyone mass migrated to Weasyl, Weasyl might end up facing the same problems from increased traffic and bandwidth use. Needing to upgrade hardware, get a dev team on board; if they have (or can generate) enough money for such an increase in demand, great. If they don't, they too, would need to monetize and find finance from somewhere. Unless they can find charitable donations of hardware, or a dev team who are willing to give up their free time or work free of charge. Doubtful.

Dragoneer has taken the steps he needs to, to get himself out of financial hardship; and he's done so in such a way that keeps the website up and active. If people are unhappy with those conditions, they will (and should) leave - or at least not feel so justified in whining about what a bad person he is - after all, the majority have contributed absolutely nothing to his operational expenditure and have remained ignorant and uncaring to the situation he ended up in. Failing to account that in all of this, he's still not monetised or demanded anything for it.

If IMVU do monetise FA, and people are unhappy about it, they will leave. Until that happens though, why not take Dragoneer and what the other staff have said at face value? It might be an inevitability; so what? If monetisation cripples the FA userbase and traffic, and there's no profitability behind it, IMVU's decision would ultimately be to shut it down, how is this not a reasonable expectation compared to Dragoneer forcing to shutdown because he can't afford the resources to keep FA running?
Then people would be forced to move to another website, say Weasyl, instead of crying "THIS IS THE END OF FA AS WE KNOW IT!"

I'm wondering if you actually even ready what I said. FA is only popular because it was good for it's time. Dragoneer didn't take the site in any direction. The site has hardly changed since it's creation. That is the problem, lack of functionality and up to date features. I didn't even mention the server issues and down time because I know a big merger to another site would cause the same issues...at first. The question is, would it stay that way? That's something neither you or I can predict which is why it was never part of my argument.

Let me make it very clear that my comment has nothing to do with the FA buyout thing. It is purely addressed at your silly comment suggesting that if FA vanished overnight (which it probably never would) that furry artist would never be able to bounce back. It's simply not true. They would move on to an (IMO) better site and life would go on. I'm. Not saying it would be a smooth transition. It would suck, maybe hurt their business or a week or two, and then things would stabilize.

My boyfriend wouldn't lose virtually any business. He would just use twitter for a while until he got situated elsewhere. He already uses twitter for most of his commission announcements anyway.

Again, there is nothing that FA offers that is really unique except it's user base which would simply move on elsewhere.

In relation to website direction and lack of functionality, I'm reposting a comment I've made above, because I think it has some relevance:

Given that anywhere else where you want to put an item up for sale or auction, you'd need to pay commission to the host for their services, again, how would that not have been an unreasonable expectation?

Whilst it would've been a nice idea, I wouldn't doubt furries to throw their arms up in the air and cry "scandal!" at that too.

Again, my argument has always been that I don't think FA was ever meant to be designed to accommodate for business / transactions. It was just something that mutated over time. Before the internet became a big thing and hit mainstream, talking about unusual sexual fetishes with other people in real life was just awkward and not done, because you couldn't talk about it with any anonymity. The internet enabled that, which is principally why you have furry art show rooms in the first place. It was a safe place to talk about it, share / create resources, and meet like-minded people. Society has evolved to some degree now though to accept that. So really, the principal reason for places like FA, VCL, FurNation for existing has become a bit redundant - at least in the sense that it isn't just about social connection anymore. Furries don't just get to browse to see what's out there any more, they can dictate and trade for an image or product that they want.

I wasn't insinuating that furry artists wouldn't bounce back if FA closed, merely suggesting that by Dragoneer's judgement, the buyout was preferable than announcing the closure of FA. Whether or not he had a thought for the FA userbase doesn't really matter; it's (or was) his website, which people don't pay to use. Regarding the decisions he makes for FA, people can shout "THINK OF THE COMMUNITY!" as loud as they want, it isn't going to make a blind bit of difference. Given the few within the community who have continually berated him for deciding what he wants to do with FA, the point I was making was, there could've been a point where he just turned round and said "You know what? Fuck this shit." and basically pulled the plug without telling anyone. One would hope that inspite of those who continually attack him, he would've had the decency to make an announcement, but that 's a moot consideration now.

The point is, the main reason Artists us FA is to exploit its popularity. To some extent, it doesn't even matter if there is a lack of functionality or up to date features. If it was such a big issue for them, they wouldn't stay here. Like I said, it's free; so they have no legitimate cause to complain. The point is, if FA closed, the userbase could disseminate to several different websites. (Not necessarily any particular one; we're using Weasyl as an example.) If I was going to stumble across your boyfriend's art, it would more than likely be through browsing FA rather than locating him on Twitter. If FA closed, I'm not sure where I would go to browse. Probably Fchan. But to assume that everything would be alright for every furry artist out there, whilst commendable, is a bit naive.

I think you are looking at it from too large of a scale.

It isn't a merger or acquisition of another company rather something a lot simpler.

Ferrox LLC assigned its tangible/intangible property to IMVU.

This wouldn't require filing with state or federal agencies like a merger / acquisition would.

Any transaction has consideration, and that's the crux of what's making people uncomfortable. What was the consideration? FA's treasure isn't its servers or hard drives or whatever else was bought on Amazon, it's the intellectual property created by its users. It's this unknown consideration in this transaction that's leading to people wondering what they were essentially sold out for to a corporate entity that has the top and bottom line as its first priority, not the fandom direction.