Oof, that sucks man :/

Easy, mods can consider this a target journal or whatever. Where he can be harassed an what not. Mods can/will suspend you for it.

Thanks I appreciate it

While I'm against harassment I still find that unfair. People who treat artists like garbage and essentially get away with it really sucks especially as it means other artists can't be made aware to not do business with him.

I used to hate it too, ultimately though the rule does more good than harm, i've seen a lot of artists whip their fans up to a frenzy and target someone and its been very unjust a lot of the time. Still sucks though.

That is true I guess, theres just no win in this situation

FurAffinity follows the same general policy of eBay: to hell with the people trying to earn money

It only counts as harassment if you post a link to that person.

He did initially, but took it down when warned.

I've heard quite a reputation about this user. Can't believe after trying so hard you're being shut down like that.

I'm so sorry to hear that you had to deal with such an unpleasant customer, Devil.

I'm very sure that all of your other Commissioners will understand the (unwanted) delays and give you the extra time you need to finish their Commissions.

Don't stress yourself out because of people like them, even if it's easier said than done. Next time if you happen to get a Commissioner as ass-pickish as this person, you know exactly what to do. No questions asked, just refund them and focus on your other Commissions.

I wish you all the best, man! Keep up your awesome work.

My condolences for the horrible experience :<

Sorry to hear that you made such a bad experience. I don't know the person who caused that problem, but I've experienced different reasons for this: Either a customer is too enthusiastic about an idea having a super exact image in mind and asking for edits because of that. Than you should reasonable explain what you can do and what not (we all can't read minds). The second kind seems to do this to show power or something. In these cases, show them your middle finger!

Man, what an actual asshole, all that work and he's just going to steal the money from you like that. I'm so sorry you had to go through that. D:

He asked me to draw 5 difference faces to choose from, gave me references for all of them, I draw them ALL for him, and he literally told me he hates them all and to start over.

wow!

IS there still the website artists beware?

https://artistsbeware.info/

Wow, that's literal cancer. It's so crazy sweet of you to take all the time and effort to do that even though it's well outside the scope of what's reasonable to be expected for something like this.

Your art is friggin legendary and I would consider myself lucky just to have the chance to work with you. I hope that things look up for you, I know it's got to be hard caring for your family and doing commissions as well.

It's always best to ignore this type of commissioner. I've lived your pain!

I’ve had people like this. It’s infuriating.

That totally sucks, but you might wanna remove his name so you don't get a suspension for making a call out post.

edit: Yeah, better safe than sorry.

blacklist and make an artist beware? better safe than sorry

It's AMAZING how Jerks people can be online, I do not think they understand how bad they might make you feel. It is risky to make art for money online, but You have the courage to do so.

I guess the benefit is that you can take the art, customize it yourself, and auction it off? I mean, change it enough and there wont be any way that they can claim it as theirs, especially since they refunded the money.

lol he only went and done it! xD

HE DID OH MY LORD

Hey! I'm Zid, too :D

Well that’s a damn shame. I’m sorry you had to deal with that, I really am =\

The nerve, gall, and entitlement from this guy is just astounding. I'm so sorry to hear that you had to deal with such a jerk.

Theres a site called Artist Beware and there is a spot for Artists to post Commissioner Bewares too!

sometimes it can be hard dealing with the mentally challenged. well, perhaps now you know better the warning signs and can react accordingly next time.

Kinda unfair to imply their being an asshole means they're mentally challenged. That's an unfair stereotype.

you've obviously never dealt with someone who's obsessive.

Being obsessive isn't always an indicator of mental health issues and besides-even if it did that still wouldn't make it OK to stereotype an entire group of people.

Be a better Zid.

Damn I'm sorry you had to experience this. I've had a super needy/picky client here and there (nothing like what you just experienced) and they can be the worst. I get it that they are paying for a commission and want a certain image; but with your situation it just seemed like they were trying to finesse a hardworking artist out of a commission. Screw people that don't understand the sheer amount of time and effort it takes to make these types of works. Screw the individuals even more that know the time it takes to make something like this and still proceed to swindle others. I hope better things come your way, helping you get into a better state both mentally and financially for your family in the future, and also just not experience assholes like the one you just described.

I'm so sorry that happened to you, man 😟 you deserved better than that asshole

Ultimately, Devil, you cannot please everyone. And what that guy did was uncalled for, but it's highly likely they'll just do what they did to you to someone else. It's unfortunate that this happened to you, though; it's obvious from what I've seen from you that you put lots time and effort into what you do.

But there's always going to be people like that guy: People who'll take advantage of your generosity and willingness to be nice. I can't imagine what happened to that guy that caused him to be like that. But encountering people who're that uncouth and unreasonable is something you're going to have to learn how to get used to.

Because that guy is little more than the tip of the iceberg.

Utterly infuriating how people that do this to artists can't be made publicly known without you getting in trouble.

That's exactly what Artist Beware is for.

Hate to see people who try treat any artist this way, so sorry to hear you had to go through all that shit with that client Grim, you always work hard to work with us who commission you and hate to see people try take advantage of that work ethic of yours like that.

I'm sorry you had to deal with this. The piece you did for my wife and I is easily one of the best pieces of art I have ever commissioned. You were extremely awesome and communicative through the entire process and the end product was absolutely fantastic. If (rather when) I have the money I would not hesitate to commission you again. I wish you nothing but the best!

Ugh. I hope this doesn't ruin it for those who legitimately want an edit or two.

Too many of us lose that privilege because someone abuses it.

nah you guys are fine, I need to keep a keener eye out on signs of people like that and bail...
i try to get things right cause it's who i am, and i don't plan on changing cause of one person, now if it keeps happening i wont have a choice lol

That's comforting to hear. I have the bad habit of frequently asking for a fair number of tweaks (small things no one should care about rather than big things like pose changes, but still), and I already stress over crossing that line of annoyance when an artist has had enough to now worry about that generousness being shrunk 'cause of one asshole.

Probably best to set a limit, ex. three edits/changes for free or something, then you charge extra for the extra time.

I have been telling him this for years! But he would always feel bad and try to make things perfect. He genuinely wants the commissioner to be 100% happy. It’s impossible with some people :( I can tell with this dude he was trying to squeeze ultimate perfection for the lowest cost. ~_~

As a finicky commissioner, I'd enjoy it if artists put an indication of how many minor edits they allow on a piece, as often when I've hit that wall they're just "This is the last one I'm done" out of nowhere when I didn't even know I was being that much of a bother.

If you want heavy specifics on commissions, its good to point out / list them within the first request of the order. That way all the important stuff is out the way from the get-go and only minor tweaks remain (if any).

That's what I try to do. I find it reasonable to have that list and focus on it. If we've tweaked the hair three times I'd think it rude to go "Oh by the way I'd like the hand changed now". My exception being if things are drawn in later that conflict with earlier sketches. Like if the tail wasn't drawn in before the inking phase (for some reason), I'd think it reasonable to change it, since I had no way to know how they'd draw it, when normally I'd be hesitant to ask for changes during the inking phase.

Generally if you're not being a picky, entitled asshole you're fine.

I try not to be either, but I do worry about coming off picky, which can come off as entitled depending on the artist's attitude. My commissions are usually 95% good and the changes I'm pick on would be something small and dumb like the length of the hair or the pupils of the eyes or thickness of the arms or some other thing most folks wouldn't be bothered by but my brain is.

Just be a decent person and if you feel you need more than three or four minor changes offer to tip extra to reflect the extra effort. Be sweet & sweeten the pot & you're good :D

Some people (like me) might have characters that are tricky to draw, and not that easy to describe well. IE, an artist is unlikely to hit a home run out of the box, no matter what I do. I don't have anything approaching "reference quality," so I'll pick and choose my references. "Well this body part might look like this, but this other picture is better for the face, but the hair came out really well on this third one."

But I recognize my characters aren't easy to get right, and I think it's totally reasonable to charge people like me more. I want to make it worth the artists' time. If they deliver something great, they should get paid by the hour.

Trust me-people like you are amazing. It's OK to not have as much of a clue or need to work with them. I think most artists love when they're given a challenge by someone who's nice to work with and who is willing to compensate them for extra time taken.

loathing people like this is an understatement, you're a hard worker and a really cool person to be hoed over by this asshole! be sure to let everyone know who he is so he cant do this to anyone else!

Damn that blows, sorry bro.

I feel like artist sounds familiar since it sounds like the same thing my friend went though. The artist asked for so much art and had paid already then asked for more things to be added even though my friend had did like what 5/10 images he asked for. The in the end ended up taking back his money after my friend did half of the fucking work and cursed him out. My friend told him to go fuck himself and blacklisted him from ever getting art from him and posted about him. The artist name began with a K. Please tell menits not the dlsame asshole. There needs to be an artist beware about this. So sorry you had to deal with this fucker

I talked with another artist friend about shit like this at one point, even if you wanna be the artist with the good customer service and cater to edits and stuff, want the commissioner to be happy, etc, it's important to set a limit. draw a line to protect yourself. of either cutting off future edits, or charging for them, or something to make sure you're not taken advantage of.

it's also helpful to have a refund policy of like, once you're past a certain stage in the work it's no longer eligible for refund on customer request.
really hope you can avoid another situation like this in the future, sorry to hear that it happened.

Been there, oh, been there. I got one kid and already find myself between a rock and a hard place often enough.
I tip my hat to thee for keeping your cool the way you did, even if it did blow up in the end. The rant is completely understandable. If anything it's very courteous/professional of you to still allow a refund at this point. Fingers crossed that you'll be able to evade the next case and have smoother sailing from here on out. Keep up the amazing work!

Yo Fuck that guy. Sorry to hear that. Fucking loser that guy is.

That sounds terrible. Grinding over one image for hours to please someone can result in diminishing returns. In this case, a complete waste of time. Don't stress over it. Rest easy knowing that the overwhelming majority of your fans and customers commission you in good faith and appreciate the work you produce.

I’m really sorry to hear that. Maybe going forward it might be prudent to have a fee for more than… let’s say 3 adjustments per piece? This sounds awful and I hope you bounce back soon.

Siiiiigh, been there. Weeks lost on an animation series, constant changes and "fixes", unrealistic goals, constant frustration. Felt like life was literally stopping to a halt because of one person's unclear instructions and indecisiveness.... And then they go, after all the B's they put you through. One of 3 anims finished, the other two partially to never be touched again. Just sits there as a reminder of more rules to set up for future commissions.

Hope you can get a break after that to 'reset' in a sense.

*hugs* i know that feeling. sorry man, i hope things get better. its hard to find commissioners who are patient enough when art gets behind and you even bend over backwards just to have the rug pulled out from under you.

Sorry that happened to you :( Had someone do that me, I literally made 49 changes (for FREE) out of kindness. No longer dealing with that nonsense, will refund and blacklist

Thnaksfully that not everyone is like that =O

Can't fault you at all.

That's bad, man. People like that can really ruin one's self-esteem and keep us from working for more understandable clients.

A similar thing happened to me (although not as severe). Client kept asking for small changes over and over, even after the commission was "finished", and I kept wanting to follow through. Things worked out in the end, but that made me realize that I needed to apply firmer rules in my commissions. In my case, limiting the number of correction/fixes and enforcing extra fees after that amount; and making sure to express all these rules to the client as soon as possible.

I hope things get better for you.

One can't help but wonder if individuals such as that do this on purpose, like they get more out of giving someone the run around...Then again, that may in an odd way be giving them too much credit, as I've also seen personalities out there that really are just straight up entitled perma-brats that think all of existence belongs to them.

What an awful situation...
I think it is totally fair if you start putting restrictions on how many times a piece can be edited, I see some do allow 3 edits and that should be more than enough.

This fucking sucks... You went above and beyond for them from the sound of it. You should be getting a TIP for that much effort, not them getting their money back.. I'm so sorry you had to deal with this.

On the plus side, despite the shitheels like this, most people are good. I'd bet every one of your other commissioners right now is patiently waiting and more than willing to be understanding.

Hmm...Did this particular person mention anything about toe rings?

As far as I know, it's been around a decade (or more) that one dived under the radar so much his reputation preceeded him...

Oh good; let's hope that thing slinked back into whatever rotten pit it came out of.

I'm very sorry about this experience. It's upsetting that FA makes you remove names cause of harrassment, even though he was doing that to you in the first place. Wish I could have made it before the name removal just to add to my own blacklist and block

I can't imagine ever being such a mean person. I hope you are doing ok.

Jesus, dude... sorry to hear you had to deal with that. :C
Fuck that guy.

Is it possible to turn all that work into a YCH?

I can confirm you've always gone out of your way to try and make people happy. Sorry to hear about this, dude. Things like this are why I tend to let the artist take their own pace, which you know from experience with me.

Makes me want to support you more.

I am so sorry to hear about this shit Grim...Honestly I'm always willing to help out when I can and will be keeping my eyes out. Hopefully you don't get anymore assholes doing shit like this to you...

Fuck that guy! I really hate how some people just have no respect for artists.
Never forget your worth!

So sorry to hear that

It's unfortunate that people like that will take advantage of your generosity. Who knows how many other artists he's probably pissed off. I hope karma comes back to bite him.

Some clients are actual bullshit, I had one forever ago convince me to draw something outside of my comfort zone, got a discount AND plenty of free fixes. Dude had this super entitled attitude about him and I couldn't really do much cos it was back when I wasn't like, known by anyone I guess so I had to rely on heavy exposure and self-advertising.

Really sorry about what you had to go through; I cannot express in human words how high it gets my blood pressure up under these kinda circumstances.

Some customers are never worth it.

HARD agree

you really need a terms of service, grim. i know you bend over backwards to make your commissioners happy, and you've made a lifelong customer out of me because of that. but you need to set a limit on how many edits people can request, or charge extra per edit request. gotta protect yourself from unreasonable people like this.

Seriously, I feel pain, man. I have heard stories of how clients harass the artists that they work with. Asking for multiple changes, unsatisfied with results, demanding for refund after so much work been done, etc.... That is horrible behavior which is unfit regarding business between client and artist. I have commissioned works for so many years and I am experienced enough on how to conduct business with artists. Its all about both parties being in an agreement, respectful towards each other, and able to conduct each party's responsibilities. Artists are not work machines that do your every whim art-wise, they are real people and they have their own reasons why they are available for commission in order to be compensated for their work whether its to secure their income, support their families and friends, gain experience, etc.

Grim (yes, I still prefer calling you by that name since it grew on me), I am so sorry for what you've been through. Rest assured, I wouldn't follow suit with how that awful person conduct business with you and I am confident that man others in this community wouldn't either. I do hope you recover from this ordeal.

P.S: Still like to catch up with you since I would like to commission you again.

Ouch, that's terrible. I've been a clumsy fellow there before myself :( Speaking as someone like that?

1) early low cost drafts
2) Put official limits/Charge excessively for reworks outside of it to discourage.

Not that anyone really wants to hear that after getting dicked around by someone but boundaries help keep you safe. It's a job that supports you so the details matter.

Hang in there :( Hope the next few are much better.

Reason I operate on a core set of rules for comissioning.
1. Pay upfront
2. While it may be my character I'm comissioning you to draw I always ask the artist "Is there anything you've been wanting to experiment with or try?" Yeah I'm throwing money at you for art doesn't mean I can't make it fun lol.
3. Respect everyone's time. If you get a note or a private message make sure to respond ASAP.
4. Keep alterations to a minimum. If art was easy it wouldn't be called artWORK. Again falls under rules 2 and 3.
5. Tip if the art blows you away. It may be an American thing to tip but, hell if I love it I tip the artist.
6. Observe Wheton's law.
I'm dreythalion and thanks for listening to my ted talk lol.
Seriously though that sucks. You do good work and to have a nightmare client like that. I can't fathom the rage you must feel from that.

that's heckin scummy =\

Dude, take a deep breath and use this as a learning experience (I dealt with this same thing once, minus the refund).

What I found helped was this: Show them a sketch first if you can. Tell them they get one revision during the sketch phase. If they don't ask for a change at that point, they don't get one at all. If they approve the sketch, make them pay in full before you move on with any additional work. (This way, even if they don't pay or move forward with the commission, you are only out the time it took to quickly draw a sketch, rather than multiple days of work.)

If they aren't happy with the sketch or its revision, tell them to kick bricks.

PS: never send them a full-sized image before they pay, even if it is watermarked

PpS: Go ahead and post and mock the stuff the characters they had you draw. If they didn't pay, the artwork belongs to you now.

PPPS: post the works on DA if you can (aka they aren't pornographic) to see if he uploaded them to an NFT site. If he did just keep filing take down notices on them.

Just my $0.02.

I have had some similar experiences over time.
There is a list of clients I no longer work for.
sorry to hear that you went through something like this.
I totally understand and feel your pain.

You know what? Put this jerk on every bad commissioner blacklist you can find.

What a dickweed.

i'm so sorry, grim. that sucks. :( it might be worth making an entry on https://artistsbeware.info/ and to share their info privately with other artists.

you deserve better than to be treated like this. hope you can recover from it. if you're in any urgent financial need, shoot me a message or something.

Wow.

It might not mean much coming from a stranger, but I am so sorry that you had to go through something like that. There's just no excuse for something like this. Period. What an ass.

Here's hoping that your next customer is a little more reasonable. Best of luck to you.

Have never worked with ya, but hope you feel better buddy

This person sounds like they wanted a VERY SPECIFIC style and was never going to be satisfied with anything you did. People like that are impossible. They think artists can just swap styles and personal techniques like a switch.

Sorry to hear that. Hope you avoid those sort of commissioners in the future.

Can always flag the guy on a different platform instead. Fairly sure FA's Anti-harassment policy doesn't count outside the platform. Even better if you know the person on *that* platform because then you don't have to link to FA at all. Wish the Mods weren't so trigger happy around here, but at the same time, if they weren't, people actually getting harassed would be missed.

As much as I agree the word should get out to artists close to Devil beware sites are a poison worse than the supposed 'cure' they pretend to offer. Really, they're just a bunch of elitists talking shit and fostering witch hunts.

Well yes, that's true. I do wish people had more sense than just going on witch hunts all the time. It does nobody any favours.

Sorry, Devil. You really do need a TOS, though. It's great you want to go to town for commissioners but you have every right to protect yourself. Plus it helps protect other artists as it contributes to an overall expectation people have when dealing with artists (IE that they can't be fucked with).

Im sorry you had to go through that. You are a good person and dont deserve that. People can be so selfish and sadly they dont think about how you have little ones to feed, clothe, and provide for, or they just dont care which is worse imo.

I agree with what people are saying, you should put a limit on how many edits and changes you do so people know up front and cant jerk you around with it. (I know how hard that is, cause I work a lot like you and feel shitty if the commissioner doesn't like it) BUT you need to protect yourself too <3

It’d probably be best to toughen up your commission rules after this experience: a refund after excessive demands for a commission is generous to a fault. It’s like refunding a customer who gets a very specific food order they asked for, but ate some, doesn’t actually want it, and then blames you for it. You’re not giving refunding the food that’s been eaten, so why refund a customer who’s already made excessive changes to an otherwise completed illustration?

Make a change to your contract for commissions to allow for two to three revisions going forward. Helps to curtail these dickheads.

Want my advice? Go to ACRG on 4chan's /trash/ board and bitch about him anonymously. Will prevent other people from taking on a commission from him and getting similarly scammed. And will prevent him from badmouthing you there if he wants to REALLY be a douchebag.

I'm glad that wasn't me.

I mean, look. Sometimes I require changes, but if the changes are involved, I expect to pay extra for them. In a way, it's my penalty for me as a commissioner not being clear enough in the first place. Also, avians aren't easy to draw, so I kindof expect my commissions would cost more anyway.

If I ever commission you, and I ask for changes/extra stuff, FEEL FREE TO CHARGE ME. You deserve it for your work.

Tjat's rough man. Hope you sell the adopt at a price to compensate for what you have gone through

I'm really sorry to hear about this shit :c

God damn

Just enforcement a no refund policy. People don't like it they don't have to buy it. You're amazing artist and definitely deserve your worth, ten fold.